You totally miss the point of road cycling. It's not about fun or enjoyment - it's all about having the bike that looks the coolest.

This is very good information. Seat height is a complicated thing. The most common thing I see on very inexperienced, let’s call them recreational riders (just riding around a park, etc.) is too LOW a saddle. But among new, aspiring and more serious road riders he is absolutely correct. But it’s also a combination of seat type, cycling shorts, seat setback, cleat position, body physiology, etc. That’s what these RCA videos are very good at showing us. But nothing replaces the fact that you must both get in the ballpark on saddle height AND ride miles. Ride miles. Time. And experiment. But not too much. I’ve seen a LOT of “fiddlers” who are constantly changing bike position. They are almost always uncomfortable. Going to a really good bike fitter like this helps get you in the ballpark, but it’s up to you to RIDE (a lot), experiment (not too much) and converge on a good position. Your body will adapt within limits (the ballpark) but once you’re in the ballpark, RIDE. Big kudos to this RCA series-you’re watching a very good bike fitter with a developed philosophy. Not typical! 😊

A lot of roadies almost never use the drops and this can have a bad influence on bike fit, particularly stack height. If you tweak your aggressive riding position on the drops, you still get a more upright position on the brake hoods for riding in a more relaxed position from time to time.... But many will tweak their aggressive position on the brake hoods which doesn't give them any option for a more relaxed riding position because nothing on the handlebar goes higher than the brake hoods. I think sometimes they're doing this purposefully for the looks. But I hate riding with them, they may look fast, but require so many stops to stretch off the bike.

These videos have helped me so much! I've ridden now for three years and now I get tired out but I'm never ever sore or hurting anywhere at all. It's pretty crazy but I can climb for ages and my quads feel great. But I got there after HOURS of tweaking things but it was a fun learning experience and I love fiddling so it was worth it to me!

I had always some soft tissue issues on my right side. And tried saddles etc. But since i saw your'e video of saddle position i began at the beginning. First of all the correct setback. Then i did the heel to the pedal position and as you mentioned dropped the saddle 15mm. So, after 2 weeks of riding, everything felt just fine.👍

Thank you, so much common sense we can all gain from your videos RCA as a team covers all the aspects of cycling there is none better .

From personal experience, I tend to agree with Neil. I have visited many bike-fitters in the past, they all raised my sadle way to high based on 3d-models and angle-programs. I remember always having extreme sadlepain, overstretched legs and muscle soreness. Fortunately, my last bike-fitter lowered my sadle approx 15mm, pedaling feels so much smoother and controlled now, sadle-sores are gone too! All the best, Gerlach Sven

Thanks to this channel and Neil's fitting content I fixed a 5 year old knee problem that I've barely been managing all this time. I would get a deep dull knee pain in my right knee about an hour after I finished riding. Never hurt during a ride no matter how long or how difficult it was. After checking leg length discrepancy I needed a 5mm shim under my right cleat. That felt great but I noticed I was still chopping my knee at the bottom of the pedal stroke as Neil describes. I dropped my saddle 5mm and it feels great!!! Now I feel intuitive glute and hamstring engagement, less weight on the handlebars, I don't constantly slip forward on the saddle anymore, I have no problem holding up my torso in the riding position if I let pressure off my hands, and best of all is zero knee pain after a ride.

Would be great to make a video about ankle angle and finding out what is best and how that effects saddle height

I must be in the 20% - had a bike fit and the saddle was extended a good few mm and the stem was replaced - 100 to 120mm... I was surprised as saddle was already quite high... then again, i went into the bike fit asking for an improved aero position (at the compromise to comfort getting very aggressive) but felt really awesome, no back pains, just comfortable on regular road bike. Then bought an aero bike, dialled in the same saddle height, stem length etc.. but the stem was slammed - made the overall reach just a few mm longer and i struggled to ride it - lower back pains, discomfort on longer rides, always riding on nose of saddle... suffice to say i went back to the old bike where position allowed for a much smoother ride, pain free, and more efficiency (power control was better). I'd advise when getting into the market for a superbike, with aggressive geometry, definitely ask for some test rides.. definitely worth finding out if the bike actually is worth it for you (physically).

On the topic of fit and proper stack-height, kudos to the brittish brand Fairlight, they sell all their frames in two stack-heights for every frame-size, regular and tall. Personally, I ride the Secan 54Tall and its a perfect fit, 100mm stem and no spacers. Looks slammed too! All the best, Gerlach Sven

My local bike shop did a fit when I purchased and i have not had any pain or discomfort at all as they really paid attention to seat height and reach

So true... coincidentally I just put my BH G7 Pro up for sale as well. Being a bit older and no longer racing, I needed something a little more comfortable where I'm not in that aggressive aero position (neck and shoulder pain started creeping in recently). I picked up a BMC Roadmachine with a higher stack and simply loving it. Good video!

I read Greg LeMonds book when I was 13 and have always thought his perspective on saddle position was interesting. Using high tech data for the time Cyril Guimard and French physiologists came up with a formula for bike position, all of Guimards Tour winners used it, LeMond, Hinualt, and Fignon. Basically, foot flat thru the pedal stroke, slight knee bend, saddle high and slammed back. Another interesting note is that LeMond encouraged tinkering with your position, he called it micro adjusting. Trying things out millimeters at a time until you have no discomfort in your position. LeMond was also an early advocate of using shoe wedges and addressing leg length discrepancy.

Just lowered my seatpost by 1 cm due to some hip pain after a long ride on the smart trainer. Also leveled the saddle, I really didn''t do that after putting the bike on the trainer. And it instantly felt better!

I have a 2015 Giant Defy that I bought used several years ago and the seatpost is set back several cm and I never felt like I was stable on the bike. My previous bike was a Gitane TDF (showing my age) that had a 'straight' seatpost and I flet VERY stable on it. I wonder if replacing the seatpost will help in my 'stability'. It will certainly shorten my reach by the difference in the setback and maybe I wont have to buy a shorter stem. As alwyas thank you for your contributions to the cycling community. Live To Ride... Ride To Live

Excellent advice as usual

Guilty of the seat too high here :) I started a couple years back with your approach, to set it low and creep it back up, so I dropped it about 3cms or so. Never crept it back up, as maybe the 3cms were not low enough 😅

Love Neill! Wish Australia wasn’t so far from Boston - I’d love him to fit me.. not totally happy with the Retul fit I got.

I'm getting older and less flexible too, but it seems to reduce my reach more then the depth, especially on the hoods, i still like them as low as most aggressive frames allow. Overall the reach of the stem and handlebar got 2 cm shorter without the need for going upwards. (i do have a minimal drop on the handlebar: compact handlebars ftw) also, my reach seems to be longer and more relaxed on the road vs on the turbo trainer, which is hugely frustrating.

I enjoyed this.

Between 16 and 25 years old I was racing in winter time we had the saddle lower than in sommer (Winter Training was mostly jogging)

Neil never fails to impress. Another little goody to put in my bag of tricks for the next time. Many thanks!

First let me say I love the channel! I'm curious what Neil's thoughts are on oval chainrings? It would appear as though he is running them on his BH. Thanks

The tips on fitting the bike are great but I need some tips on fitting all the bikes in my garage! N+1

The bicycle at 6:00 looks like it is between aero race geometry and all road more relaxed geometry . I had a Miyata that was very aggressive 25 years ago .

Can confirm body geometry change with age. I have a 2016 Allez Sprint which I bought new...in 2016. And boy the saddle drop to handlebar is never ending, I reach maximum pelvis tilt...and my handlebar is like 'but wait there's more'.

I think it's good to have a few spacer under the stem (10-15mm), it gives you a room for adjustment if you get more flexible for example. From a structural/stiffness point 10mm of spacer do nothing bad. Then 30mm is less pretty for sure.

The problem with getting a frame with a correct geometry is that if one searches for something with a higher stack, one has to go for the endurance range. And when on that endurance range (which is actually starting to disappear in favor of the all-round gravel segment) frame creep up on weight, chainstays increase by 10-20mm, front wheel goes away into the horizon. I have never seen an industry that is so out of touch with clients needs. And people simply just continue to buy these.

When I last was on the market for new bike, I tried a Focus flat bar bike, but I could tell immediately that it was too aggressive for my body. The ho hum entry level road bike I ended up with is much friendlier.

First thing when buying a bike I think is figuring out how much drop from seat to bars you're prepared to live with. For most recreational riders a comfortable drop to the top of the bars is probably not that much.

Love these vids

I ride with so many people who’s seats are too high. Some obvious, and some only slightly. I used to mention it to them, but few if any ever did anything about it, so I stopped and now just shake my head and chuckle to myself.

Neil-have you noticed in you fitting experience that you have to lower saddle height for ride going from narrower saddles “fizik arione” at 131 wide to say a modern day 142/145 width saddle? My back is in shambles trying modern day saddles. I can tell my pelvis is twisted and when I sit back down after standing they I have to “find” the saddle again. Never a problem before. Thank you for the content!

Another mistake is to not check and adjust bike fit settings from time to time. This is not just because things change over time as we age, lose or gain weight, become stronger or weaker, or more or less flexible, and so on, and in some cases even lose height. Or because what felt right a year ago no longer feels right. It's also because if you don't loosen, clean, apply grease or anti-seize to and retighten fasteners, and not just bike fit ones but all of them, they run the risk of seizing or galling in place and becoming unremovable, which could potentially destroy parts of your bike or render them forever locked in place. I just found this out the hard way as I tried to loosen the saddle rail bolt on my seatpost and saw that it had both rusted and seized and the recessed hex bolt head has rounded. So now I have to drill it out, clean out the clamp threads and replace the bolt, with no guarantee that it'll work.

I m riding road bikes since 50 years one can fit the front bu using a stem with a different angle and put it that it gets higher - it’s quite cheap and can change comfort dramatically in old days this option was not given

Let’s be honest. Most bike shops will not let you test ride a bike beyond the car park, will charge you to change stem length/bar width/saddle. Bike industry has to move with the times - a big shock is coming I suspect. When you spend 2/3/4 grand on a bike, you should be able to change these sizes at no cost.

Insieme × 109 for seat height worked for me .

Just wondering how low can saddle go from ideal height and still be comfortable? I am looking to put a rockshox axs dropper seat post on road bike for aero gains but unsure if go 50mm or 75mm travel, mainly for aero but safe to cycle

It's easy to fit if you use old school methods. Raise your saddle too high on your fixed gear bike, find a steep hill, lower the saddle until you are comfortable at 150-200 rpm. For set back, put the saddle all the way forward, then move it back until you can pedal with your hands off the bars without face panting. For stem length, go longer until your low back is flat.

Can you make a video to recommend more upright road bike models? I don't only find very aero bikes...

Can you recommend a good bike fit in Brussels, Belgium?

In my experience - which is relatively extensive, I've found most people that complain about saddle discomfort have their seats about 2" too high- that and saddle angle is often off by at least a cm or two..rarely nothing to do with the saddle itself. I have no idea why people choose to raise their saddle to completely ridiculous heights- my only interpret comes from "small man" syndrome - given the average height isn't very tall.

Biggest mistake people make when buying a bike for the first time is listening to the sales man. Most shops ive been in only have large or extra large frames. When you really need a small frame. Get a frame you can stand over rather than sitting on the top tube and leaning over.

Beautiful looking bike in the picture. What is it?

I watched one of your videos just before covid and dropped my saddle 25mm after riding for 7 years without any issues. After riding in the lower position for about a month and 700kms later i started to get front knee pain rising from out of a kneeling position or getting up from a chair at work. I can't say for sure the lower position caused the issue but i highly suspect it. I had knee x rays and ultrasounds and nothing showed up which makes me even more suspicious the extra pressure in the patellafemoral joint from a lower saddle caused me a chronic soft tissue injury somewhere in the patellafemoral joint . After more than 3 years my knee is only now starting to get a bit better so i would warn anyone watching these videos to be very cautious about riding with a saddle not high enough.

What about front knee pain at 12-1 o'clock?

I'm 5-10 and ended up with a bike that is a 52-inch frame (I had intended to get a 54-inch frame) that I think is a bit too small for me. Instead of buying another bike right away, I'm looking for ways to make a frame that maybe is slightly too small work for me in the most optimally way possible.

Absolute legend!

I would agree about seat height and many years ago rode with a too high seat. Of course in the early 1980's the reasoning was the leg should be slightly bent at the bottom of the pedal stroke and the foot should complete a circle. We were told to ankle as the foot complete the circumference. The shoes then had a different cleat arrangement with toe clips which may have contributed to the theory. Riders like me now in their 70's have learnt a new style and it is superior, especially about stem height and handlebar drop. Both my Colnagos feel very comfortable with no discomfort from following set up in these excellent videos.

Hi Neill, what do you think about using a gravel handlebar on road bike? I am thinking about Pro LT Gravel which has 10° of flare, 65mm reach, and 110mm drop. Context: I've been using FSA Omega with 4° of flare and loved it so much.

Hi ,listen do you know anything, what about people who have had strokes ,you need the seat up to keep the leg straight

Ive been riding without a saddle for years. I always get home with a smile on my face 😅

Please, some inclusion of modern mountain bike fit? Please?

My hands hurt and start to go numb after 80-90 mins. Can't afford bike fit atm. Should I just try lowering seat by 5-10 mm ? The only metric I've gone by is hoping on the bike and being able to touch the ground on my toes

Made the mistake of buying a bike that was way too big. Felt like superman all the time. Had a bike sizing and should have been on a bike two sizes smaller.

It took me ages to get seat height right. It was so difficult because cranks were too long. This is my third bike that I bought 2015. Each bike I rode about 8 years.. I replaced the factory 172.5mm cranks, about 2 years ago with 165mm. So I rode 22 years saddle too high, but it was sametime also too low. And I could not get it right. Could not get saddle height right, handlebar position right.. everything. Once I got the saddle height right. I became capable to transform from cyclist to pedestrian while moving and then, when I also replaced cranks with correct length. It became so easy. Stepping down from bike while still moving.. what's the big deal? How can someone lose control by doing that.. well it really was impossible for me about 5 years ago. And my seat was not too high just because I was thinking I get more power. It was because I was afraid to hurt knees.. I wish I trusted the data sheets that suggest crank length according to age and height of person and bought right cranks already years ago. I'm 172 to 173 cm tall by the way. And cranks that made my bike fit so much better and comfortable are 165mm long. So it really isn't that much shorter. Just 5 mm shorter than common cranks on new bikes, but I feel the difference is big enough to be grumpy over the fact that I had suffered so many years for nothing and envious to all those taller privileged people who were able to ride longer distances and more comfortable free. While I had to struggle. I even thought to stop greet them back.. to ignore anyone who is taller than me..

ah seat height, hello darkness my old friend. Personally I have found the best way to set seat height is start low, if quads feel overloaded in first 30mins of ride its too low. Raise 2mm and go again until quads dont feel overloaded. If i get one sided saddle sore or any one sided hip issues the saddle is too high and i lower again 2mm, so on and so forth. A boring process, i even keep a notebook of changes i make with comments on feel etc but it gives me confidence.

Bike seat placement being out of whack I find is more a combination of things gone wrong then just simply the seat is in the wrong place. Sadly the biggest issue I see is people with the wrong bike. The wrong size frame and the wrong frame geometry and not wanting to shell out more money on top of the cost of the bike to get new components that fit the person. Most people buying bikes get the one they like the look of or get the ones the pros use and buy a size that seems to fit the closest, rather than buying a bike for their intended purpose. Also components on most bikes are selected to try and be as general as possible to accommodate the widest variety of different body types genders and rider ages as possible, and there in lays a lot of the problem too. I know that if I'm buying a race bike with aggressive aero geometry compared to a relaxed endurance geometry, they have different seat tube angles, head tube angles, higher BB Etc. So on each bike I'll need a different top tube length, stem length, stem angle, stack height, crank arm length, bar drop depth, seat height and position fore/aft to achieve my perfect fit. But most people don't know that or aren't willing to pay to change it. So I've noticed that people will raise the seat really high, also slam the seat forward because they're trying to open up the hips and not drive their knees into their chest and so it feels like they can get more power while climbing sitting down so they don't have to stand up.

idk why but after i switched to bike shoes and put cleats furthest back i feel pressure in my knees..

I would normally set up a new Bike using the LeMond method as a starting point. Do some riding then visit the LBS for a fitting. I’d do that about once a month till I was dialed in. However IMHO bike fitting regularly is one of the best forms of preventative medicine for cyclist. I would typically visit my LBS twice a year to get redialed regardless of whether my bike was new or old. I think it’s also a mistake to try and dial yourself in. Even if you’re highly qualified to do so. You absolutely need that second objective eye.

long crank arms usually can be a reason for people not wanting their knees in their mouth, hence shooting that seat post as high as possible

If your seat is too high, can it cause lower back pain?

My bicycles are comfortable thanks to advice from the late Mick Mazza from Marrickville .

I’m enjoying the bike so far kzfaq.infoUgkxMesz3KOGEmwmvyKQfLfrRSUXLFzfVHZA My only real complaints are the brakes and the pedals. I feel like a bike designed for bigger people should have much larger pedals and more heavy duty brakes. I’ve only gotten two really good rides out of it, minimal downhill action, and the brakes feel like they’re already going out. A larger person has more momentum, so I think this wasn’t thought through very well. Also, I wear size 13-14 wide shoes. My feet cramp up on these pedals that are clearly made for smaller feet. Since I’m not a pro rider (and I don’t think many are who purchase this bike) I don’t think that the straps on the pedal are necessary at all. None of this takes away from the enjoyment I get from riding, however. I’ll just head to a bike shop to improve on a few things.

👍

I never needed a clinic to win a bike race and I would also say the winner out suffered the competition. Now I'm not suggesting that fit is not important, I am suggesting that to get to the top is hard and regular training, regular diet, good genetics are far more important than paying someone to tell you you look comfortable on your bike.

Cleats all the way back, saddle lower 👌

I got tired of adjusting my seat height, setback, stem length, stack. So I bought a BMX 😄

The most common mistake is adopting the racing position.

It's gotta be the raddest ride in the group so I get all the chicks...

Does your saddle height change as you get older? If so, I’m presuming it needs to be lowered.

The British army did studies in the 1930's and came to the conclusion that 93% of full leg extension was ideal for producing power and limiting injuries'.

I was thinking to go for Gravel bikes, as they are more comfortable, and less areo... All road bikes are so aggressive in position. Who buys these... ?

Coping the pro riders position on the bike is not a good idea, often they ride bikes that are to small for them with lots of seat post showing which looks like they ride really high.

Why are you sure they are really really good?

Neil really does need to be removed from the channel. His videos are making me want to spend money on a bike fit and sadly the guy who I'd like to do a bike fit for me is about 1600km north of me. Looks like I may have to make myself happy by just dropping my seat a bit :(

You have to find your legs Not just buy a cool looking bike!!!

You to low to me maaatr

Either Neill is a very tiny human being sitting next to a 50T chainring, or that's actually a 56T...