As an outsider - there certainly seems much more to unite around than to fight over - but for a fascinating alternative view do watch this video kzfaq.info/get/bejne/l76PdKuEqKfIXZ8.html

@@hereticatious Great suggestion, I loved it!

What do you mean as a ‘future Roman Catholic’?

@@VynylFantasy That I'll become one, in the future.

​@@Paul9443​ Despite my comment in the post above (with things not having turned out for me as one might have hoped) I truly wish you every happiness! I had a devout High Church Dad and went to a C. of E. boys' school, only we were raised Roman Catholic for Mum, so I grew up familiar with both). Great dignity and tasteful reserve in the Church of England, for instance the King James Bible and the Book Of Common Prayer, as well as some magnificent hymns! For many with a Roman Catholic exposure, however, there comes a time when one finds oneself saying of Anglicanism: 'The Emperor has no clothes'. (If there be a God, please God you never see the day when you look up to see the Catholic priest has no clothes either, quite literally)... but then, such vice is not exclusively Roman, moreover: 'The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and "there is no new thing under the sun." '-Ecc. 1:9 (the KJV). Again, I like to think things shall work out for you in a way that, in time, you shall say it was both the most important and the best decision of your life!

I noticed an outward facing character

It was not only the Oxford Movement but the whole C of E. See the work of Kitson Clarke and Edward Norman.

I love how one subject leads to another - thanks for the insight and its added to the list.

I had a go at getting it out of my local library - not available. I'll keep looking.

@@hereticatious Nockles' DPhil thesis from Oxford may be online.

Me too

There an actual error towards the end (when I'm walking around and summarizing) - unfortunately KZfaq doesn't offer a facility to patch in a fix. But are there other bits where the audio isn't working for you? I sweat blood over the audio - but I am definitely a beginner - so by all means direct me to a bad bit.

Sounds like whats-his-name, that Atheist who describes himself as a "cultural Christian"? Like someone who likes apples but wants to cut down all orcgards.

First Coldplay reference in the comments. Gold star.

St Peter don't you call me,I can't go Cos I owe my soul to the company store...

@@nickbarber2080 Good one! 😄

I think I basically agree with you. What I was trying to imply was they looked back to the scripture and practices of the early church - that's a conservative with a small c sort of thing to do. I think what YOU say does underline my (not particularly explicit) theses - that this backward look was selective - and they (the Oxford Movement) helped themselves to the bits they already liked. There is lots to like about those choices. I'm genuinely perplexed that there are still those who feel women priest and gay marriage pose a problem - I imagine they just need to read differently. But it's basically bloody rude for me to opine too strongly on this - as I start from an utterly different place on all these subjects and am being merely pragmatic on where my (essentially woolly liberal) values overlap.

Newman came to believe that the C of E was "half-way to Atheism".

I'm all the way to atheism - and it seemed pretty "faithy" to me :-)

@@hereticatiousIt’s not a question of “reading differently”. Its simply, what is the point of following something that is supposed to be Objective and authoritative for morals and values, that has consistently and clearly declared for 2000 years the same message on marriage and clergy, if within a period of Barack Obamas presidency, it can change its teaching and give you the opposite conclusion. Why should I follow that as having any bearing whatsoever on me? It’s contradictory and irrelevant. How much do you need to read to come to that conclusion.

@crossvilleengineering1238 If you accept any change can happen at all (and there's been lots of change over the period) there's got to be a moment before the the change is formalised and after when it is. I'm not sure your argument about the change happening over a presidential term can hold any weight (and for scale we had three prime ministers during that time - is that long enough? - how long would be long enough for you?). And of course there were many years (hundreds?) before when the obvious inconsistency with central values of kindness and fairness were argued (both openly and covertly) before one selective reading finally replaced another selective reading.

They do alright there I think - numbers wise. But it's such an odd point to make - is this a numbers game to you? Are you saying - if liberalism is successful - and rescues the church - you'll get on board? I think you should like liberalism because it's nicer.

They are mainly empty, fashions have changed, and although drawing some by their ritual and colour, their downplaying of the word of God, the saving work of Jesus Christ and the power of the Holy Spirit do not meet the deep needs of our spiritual hunger for reality!

Do they downplay the word of god? Its all I can do too get them off the subject.

Played by Oliver Reed

Back-ward looking may be right - to put the clock backward may be correct if it is telling the wrong time.

I think your different emphasis is illuminating. In England we've tended to get more stuck on the beef between Henry and the Pope. I must admit - until about thirty seconds ago - I thought the Orthodox and Roman Catholic churches were in full communion - so have tended to treat them as different flavours of the same thing. Thanks for making me look into this. Still learning. I did read Keble's "Kicking off the Oxford Movement" sermon. I found it had much in common with most sermons - too long and unnecessarily elliptical. It didn't say what I wanted it to say either i.e. "let's make churches prettier and more fun". Please don't make me read any more😢

@@hereticatious Amazing that you did not know about the schism between the Orthodox and Roman Catholic.

Even very early on there were Anglican Papalists who equated the Church with Rome. Hurrell Froude and WG Ward are good examples.

@@frederickjones532 None who remained Anglican would deny that the Anglican Church is the Catholic Church.

@@anselman3156 Many Anglican Papalists maintained that the C o E was 2 Provinces or the Roman Catholic Church forcibly separated by State action. I can remember such people in the 1950s.

The irony here is loud.

@@EireAbu Care to elaborate?

I think you perhaps go a little too far. Think of the church as an evolving character - there are things that are in character and things that are out of character - and when it learns - you find out that the thing it learned was in character all along. That's not the same as anything goes. You're right though - we don't *need* the church - but - darn it they built such nice buildings - we owe it to history to to find a way to look after them - and the stories are so compelling we owe it to humanity to keep them in the zeitgeist.

@@hereticatious We have a different understanding of Church! My early Christian Teachers always emphasized fidelity to the will of God, and always held the early Christian Martyrs as an example of not giving in to the World. God is the Center verses Human Reason or Society as the Center is the main difference between our points of view. Actually, I respect the gods and goddesses of all peoples enough not to ask their worshipers to change the Religion that their gods gave them while continuing to claim that they are true Worshipers. When I do missionary work my aim is to convince the Worshipers of foreign gods that they would be better off Worshping the Lord my God and forsake their ancestral gods. My aim is not a demonstration that their gods aren't real or that they should modify their Religion to make it more in line with Western Cultural norms, because for me that is ultimately not even important. Encouraging people to Blasphem their ancestral gods would only bring the wrath of their gods an them and me something that is of no benefit to anyone involved. As far as the Church as a Museum this was never attractive to me. I have always found it a joy when traveling to Eastern Countries and find a beautiful Church with zero tourists yet plenty of people saying their own private prayers during times when no Liturgical Service was taking place. My parents and grandparents were Anti- Capitalist and despised the Ruling Oligarchs of the West and so a Religion Modified or newly Created for the benefit of Capitalism or the Western Oligarchs was never a thing for me. The State Church of England in our time is obviously a Modified Religion for the Benifit of the Oligarchs, this is not a judgment on Anglicanism as it is very possible to be an Anglican and fully intend to follow Historical Christianity, yet for this Communion with the Archbishop of Canterbury must be broken. [In a short time this will not be a big deal in time because the Office of the Archbishop of Canterbury, as well as the Pope of Rome, and Patriarch of Constantinople among others will be permanently vacant.] All this probably has a lot to do with our parents and early teachers and their understanding of Authority such View Points are often past on in families for 100s of years... Interesting as a teenager I criticized my parents a lot, yet today so many years later, I have adapted their understanding of Authority and mindset with very few changes almost as if the Political, Social, Economic and Religious aims of my parents and grandparents have become personally mine, you can easily see my ancestors when listening to me talk.

I wouldn't have either a nine months ago. You have a choice - watch all my videos in order (I'm very much in favour of this option) OR tell me what you'd like to see?

@@hereticatiousNo, thank you. A little learning is a dangerous thing. Live and let live.

@@Jack-il3qv Your curtesy and restraint leaves me no choice - I (reluctantly) release you back in to the environment 🙂

@@hereticatious 'Blessed are you when people exclude you..' From the Beatitudes. I am indeed blessed. I am never without a choice. I shall go where strangers are welcome.

Okay - but what a straw!

@hereticatious from somebody who had that straw but found it wanting I can assure you there are a million straws out there , I found my straw and its not hollow

@billybobwombat2231 but if your straw isn't hollow - how can you drink your milkshake :-)

@@hereticatious I chew it

You're saying all that as if it's a bad thing? That's all cuddly as anything to me.

@@hereticatious I get the Calvinist end of Anglian Protestantism, while disagreeing with it theologically. Life is rot and canker, so let's whitewash the church back to nothing the better to contemplate our depravity. However, Anglo-Catholic churches seem like a place you could marry your dog, and there'd be vestments for that express purpose. It may have originated in a genuine attempt to re-think Anglicanism in the face of Catholic emancipation, but as an outsider in the C21st it looks like a gay church. For atheists this doesn't matter, it's yet another riff on a widespread delusion. For Christians, conservatives and the aesthetically OCD, it's a skip fire.

@@hereticatious My reply has been removed for some reason, so we'll never know!

​@@borderlands6606"resolved", hardly given the fact that Lord Carey of Cliftonville stated quite recently that the Anglican Church is one generation from extinction, if "resolved" means implosion, perhaps. My goodness Rochester Cathedral housed crazy golf. You have a bishop of London, a female, being an advocate of baby killing (250,000 in one year in England Wales alone), the list could go on. As regards to "theatre" I can only assume you prefer the prefab to the theatrical inducing grand cathedrals when they aren't accommodating crazy golf. What's next! The crucifixion was a load of aul theatre too?

@@EireAbu I hesitate to respond because my reply was removed. By "resolved" I meant there's Catholicism and Protestantism in the west, and Anglo-Catholicism is a historical anachronism that exists to serve a particular demographic.