John Riley is such a phenomenal drummer. It doesn't really matter what he plays - he sounds amazing!

Dang, that OG Philly ride sounds incredible!

And you can get this EXACT cymbal...

The new K Con Zildjian is terrific, but Philly’s old classic cymbal is Magic. Of course it’s got the vibe, some serious Juju, that cymbal is part of the collective unconscious of any and all serious jazz drummers, regardless of where you sit in the lineage. Wow. John does a fantastic job with the A-B of the two cymbals, pulling out the right colors and tones for us to get sense of the instrument. I use all K Cons now, Zildjiians are really good these days. But those old ones... Wow, just wow. Thanks Memphis/John/Zildjian! -Greg Burrows

The new cymbal is absolutely beautiful and I'm sure Philly Jo would eagerly approve. John's playing is brilliant, as always.

Any good quality cymbal is not only a financial investment, but also one of time. No cymbal, no matter how fancy/expensive, sounds good right off the floor. Takes years of attention, gigging, and practicing until the cymbal starts to come to its sound. It’s why all the vintage Ks sound so good. The more you break quality cymbals in, the better they get. You can tell from the attack that this new cymbal will sound fantastic in about a decade.

Overhammering, the real epidemic of 2020

Old is Gold:)

John Riley is helping zildjian market by persuading drummers one at a time with these videos

Great video!

Great lesson! Very nice sounding cymbals

John and Paul...two MASTERS!!!... This clip is GOLD

Outstanding video with John. This comparison with this historical masterpiece is a nice attempt by Avedis. Philly would have taken the new one too and sold it immediately. But the trick with the hairpin is ingenious and saves money...

Thanks Memphis drum shop. U the real mvp

Two amazing rides!!!

great video on a great subject. that is one of the sweetest rides on earth. the recordings its on is mind boggling . to see it , hear it all these years later is a gift . PJJ sound and feel is the coolest till this day !!!! i really appreciated your effort paul . bravo . p.s. the 'take five ride " was another significant step in cymbal art . thanks. MAKE ME ONE NOW LOL (PAUL):)

Amazing to see the cymbal that Philly Joe Jones used on “Cookin” Workin” etc! I listened to those quite a bit back in the day. Also Milestones of course. I wonder if it’s the same cymbal he used on “Art Pepper Meets The Rhythm Section.” That’s another record that I listened to a lot in my formative years. Btw John’s Art Of Bop Drumming book is incredible IMO.

Many great comments. My first one..why not put at least one rivet in the new one? You can't "compare" tonal spread and wash between two cymbals when one has rivets and the other doesn't. That didn't make any sense to me. Second comment ..that portion of the original that has been removed (assuming to due damage) IS part of its character. The cymbal doesn't act like it did before it was removed and it is nearly impossible to recreate that with a whole and intact new one. I also believe that as a general overall comment...the newer Zildjians all sound too 'heavy ish" or bright. Save for a few specific lines..(the discontinued Armand series for example ..WHY??? Zildjian..WHY?) have a much less aggressive top end and a more consistent harmonic wash underneath. No question about Mr. Riley's talents...they speak for themselves but overall..these two cymbals don't match well to my ears.

That is a nice sounding cymbal. Love it!

This is great. Well done 👍 John

Loved this

There are definitely some frequencies in the new Zildjian that I'm not a fan of.. but often those are the ones that get lost in a live setting 🤷🏻‍♂️

Very nice ride

Sweet ride!!! 🍒

They sound different to me. The new one sounds like a K Con and the old one is more in line with vintage A sound, and why do vintage cymbals look charming? Thanks MDS for uploading these videos.

I actually like even the new cymbal a bit better for its body and warmth. Thank you, John Riley, for your nice and perfect demonstration of them both

That vintage cymbal is very nice.

They both sound good, just different. I like my Sweet A ride. Happy dance.

The hardest thing to do is to mass produce a cymbal and make it exactly the same every time. Philly’s old K is one of a kind in the sense that the patina, the lathing, and all other aspects of it have changed and “sat” over the years. Chances are the cymbal also sounds different now than it did with miles. The patina and mother nature had a lot to do with that 😉 They also didn’t have specific names and models for cymbals like they do now. Talking to older drummers, everyone tells me that cymbals were not mass produced in the traditional sense or the same way. Each one was unique and you never knew exactly what you were getting. It might have said: 18” medium ride, or 20” heavy ride etc. All you had for indicators was weight, mostly. I personally think it’s very cool. They’re so unique, like people!

The old cymbal sounds better

Hmm, I play a few nice vintage bop kits so, I just might go grab myself one. I'll definitely keep all my old K's but will give the new one a chance.

I was lucky enough to meet John Riley in italy in 2006, such a great person and teacher as well! the next year during a summer vacancy I ve been in Memphis for a while and I got to spend some time in your shop .... I wish there was also an "Italy drum shop" like yours!

Magic

Philly Joe's ride such a magnificent thing!!! The sound... to replicate that.... you have to give Zildjian credit for trying :)

You guys should discuss the swish that buddy rich had

Philly Joe's cymbal is quite a beautiful cymbal. The K Constantinople is also a great cymbal. It really is a different quality than Philly Joe's. There is nothing quite like an old K. I used to have 4 or 5 and am now down to one. All in all, Zildjian makes a great product, not matter what you are looking for. Meanwhile, John sounds beautiful here.

The old Vintage PJJ's cymbal is so much more "complex"... A LOT of little nuances going on - which become less so - cleaner and more focused on the new one... No contest - the Vintage wins hands down!

I really wish they would make the earth ride again. I had a 22-inch earth ride that I loved. But I had to sell it. I wish I could find another one.

That cons is majestic.

JR is the man.

Sounds ok. A far cry from the original article though. Lacks the hardness in the attack that the old one effortlessly displays. Also the dirt and patina seem to EQ the old cymbal in a very pleasing way and (perhaps unsurprisingly) the new cymbal has none of that either.

I wish they would do this with Tony's ride

The new one has no “PING” it’s more like “pung”

How is this record? The sound is so great, and I don't see any mics around the kit. Could you help us?

Both sound good. Like the old cymbal best for the contrast between the ping and crash . The new one is close though.

Okay, I know John Riley is a incredible drummer and I can't add anything to what you guys already said about him but for you older cats who have been around for awhile like me... I'll be damned if John isn't the spitting image of Joseph Campanella from the Mannix tv show. He even sounds like him it's really bizarre they simply must be related in some way :-) I have to say regarding the K Constantinople and I'm surprised they didn't talk about this but of course they're pushing a product so they probably wouldn't, but in my opinion I think they should have aged the new K with a patina and took some of the sheen off of it and it would have helped mellow it out some sort of pre-aging like they do with some cymbals which if you're going to do something specific then that's the way to go but I guess they were simply trying to pull whatever was closest to Philly Joe's cymbal from their current catalog I guess so not too bad but not really close let's be honest... Nevertheless, a really nice cymbal but let's keep it real... John playing a garbage can lid would sound like a dream...

sounds like my K CON 22 medium low just a little brighter

I thought PJJ was known as one of the few in bop era to use US As instead of Turkish Ks. I imagine it was never exclusive but I thought he preferred higher pitch rides. Roy Haynes may have used As too

A great video! It's somewhat surreal looking at Riley, who's book "the art of bop drumming" is the basis of nearly all my jazz playing knowledge. It was very fun to hear the similarities between this mythical, and modern renaissance, ride. In 60 years I bet the Constantinople will sound even closer when the metal gets time to develop and the cymbal becomes drier.

My ear likes the Philly cymbal. It has weight and rides Nicely. The new one is kinda thin with too much "air" underneath it.

The music is not in the cymbal

Hey how about making the the old way?

I grew up in NATO Europe, and American forces had _only_ K Consts, and we knew not how good we had it.

ot even close in sound...what's the deal?

You’d have to bury that new one in the back yard for like, 15 years to get it anywhere near the old one.

Wonder why they didn’t use a Kerope model to make a K Istanbul clone. I’d figure that’d be the best choice.

What model is the new one? Besides K Constantinople- which? a new model or a Medium thin hi, or lo? or medium? or..Is there a product salesman anywhere in the house?

Just as with the Joe Morello ride...they focused to get the pitch of the ping and the other characteristics were missed.

Stick attack sound more solid on original Philly Joe Jones . Really jumps out . Newer blends in

one is a decent standard ride sound, the other is much more scooped sounding, trashier and breathier.

I like the new one better

Imagine : john riley is batman and paul is robin . saving the world from heavy , sonically challenged cymbals.

I think the newer one sounds better

No doubt, good to have both. But you ain’t gonna get Philly Joe’s 20. I remember Eagle brass brads.

im sorry the new con is great but its no comparison to that old K - thats a special cymbal

Of course the older one is damped and has more definition because of years of patina and grime.

Gotta Bury it in the backyard for a couple years ⚫️

I don't know what it is, there something about the old zildjian cymbals and the hammering that they cant recreate no matter how hard they try, anything they turn out looks nothing like it, so naturally it cant sound the same.

def like the new better, i like the deeper wash. old one is beautiful though

The new one needs rivets too !!!

I've heard several K Constantinople cymbals ranging from 20" to 22" ranging from there light to high pitch ratings stamped on their symbols. To me, judging from sound only and not visual appearance the closest sounding ride cymbol in the Zildjian line would be the 21" K Custom Special Dry Ride cymbol, not so much on the crash sound but definitely on the ride sound. In fact, when they mentioned that the old K's had a more dryer sound than this K Constantinople that's exactly what the K 21" custom special dry ride sounds like with also adding slightly more jazz like trash sound.

A light chain draped over gives a nice wash

You could take this clip and send it to Saluda Cymbals and they could come much closer than Zildjian to the original sound and it would cost half the price.

Your rides cracked but you already know that

Honestly, I always thought Tony Williams had the best ride sound on those old Miles records. Yeah, Joe Jones is cool too, but that TW sound was something else.

This dummer is cooking ! I prefer the vintage cymbal.

Not even the same The new one is way too shiny

Whys it gotta be for a woman, John?

Nice but too much wash.

Remember when musicians were musicians and not salesmen?

I should be delighted that zildjian is spending the time and R&D money to replicate the iconic cymbals of philly and tony. It’s (maybe) a noble effort, but they never even get close....not even CLOSE...to the sound they purport to recreate. These two cymbals don’t bear any resemblance to each other. It really gets on my nerves when these guys try to pass off a machined, mass produced, cymbal as something it’s not. If that is really zildjian’s best effort at recreating a vintage sound, they should just stop.

To me, the older Zildjian with the bobby pins/rivets sounds like a trash can lid. I do not like it at all.

I'm sorry but I think Mr. John Riley is being soft because he's endorsed by Zildjian. Zildjian is dead. Nothing good coming from them these days. Constantinople's are boring too. The current company vision no way resembles the vision 50 years ago.

Cymbals sound nothing alike.

Old cym. Sounds like crap.

The new K is not that great…..

Jazz musicians are the worst about describing music.