So appearantly you reload cancel if you hold the fire button down. I didnt know this at the time. but damage in 8.24 seconds(without reload cancel) is damage in 8.24 seconds lol and is 183. there are two options. damage dealt as game reads. and damage dealt as damage gets dealt. Either way is acceptable depending on how you play the game

Mathematics doesn't apply to me because I miss every shot. 😎

Crazy to see you grow from 2.7k to 15.7k in 3 days

As a biology nerd, I appreciate the math nerds helping me out with videogames by doing all the math I can't

They should add some kind of damage screen in the testing area, where it can show you the total damage and damage per second. When you change mods in the area you can test it again to figure out which mods are best for your weapons and for each faction of enemy

hey man, really appreciate you doing all the testing and math for the community, i found something that might help. Ive noticed this the most on the Fallen Hope AR, where when you hold down the fire button while reloading, the reload "circle" is barely over half when the gun starts to shoot again with a full mag. I briefly tested this with a few wepons like the Signivores Proof GL and the Wave Of Light SR and it seemed to me that they all dont quite line up with thier reload icon animation.

Once the magazine is loaded in the animation you can cancel the animation , and in my testing (don’t have recorded data unfortunately) certain weapons animations are FASTER.

Just the way I like it, calculated. Precise. The joy love shows. The effort and quality is magnificent. Subbed of course :D

You’re a badass! You admit when you’re wrong and find a way to improve! We need more people like you!

This is why I don’t trust reload and fire rate stats. In Remnant 2 and Helldivers 2 (iirc) i had to manually test all the weapons’ reloads and fire rates. Remnant was particularly bad. Ofc ur formula is correct idk how ppl are disagreeing. There are some tricks you can do in-game to increase your DPS though, like manually reloading after your last bullet to remove 1 bullet’s worth of time, so the 6 would become 5.66, resulting in a 4.2% increase in DPS. The strength of this will depend on the fire rate and reload of a given weapon. There’s also reload cancelling as mentioned by another comment, but idk when in the animation you can cancel it so I can’t speak to that. Great content as usual! Mistakes happen, the quality of these vids is still great

I know for the Thundercage, the reload says 1.4. But the negative special effect has -reload speed, and as you get dupes, it goes down to 0. However the 1.4 never changes.

If you noticed when dodging and seeing the reload bar you can dodge with some weapons close to the reload bar being full and your gun is reloaded while others aren't. The animation has to finish, even in the game the reload bar is off from the true reload time on most weapons. You aren't rolling mid reload the reload and skipping it. The reload finishes before you roll, or the roll cancels your reload.

Great content! I/We really appreciate your videos. I always keep in mind that the DPS is only true if you hit the target :D

Dod is a good dude, he knows his stuff. He is more than willing to combine resources. Reach out to him!

Im curious if decendants have a built in attack speed modifier for guns or whats accounting for that extra attack speed

Another good video from you that helps me, you're doing the lords work, thank you. Now I can only hope you will bless us again and do a video on weapon stats (Weapon readjustment)

Not the hero we deserve, but the hero we need!

Love that u show ur work n clarify mistakes

I think you may find that with different hero's in the game the animation for reloading is going to be a debate where you can animation cancel the reload just by holding the trigger down during reloading which shoots the bullets before the time frame of the actual reloading the gun states. So firing constantly and reloading then holding the trigger button during this time will fire the gun with a full mag before the reload has finished. Like a mini animation cancel

There are also dmg types and resistances like „pierce“

Talk about when preparation meets opportunity. Your channel is growing FAST cuz of all these TFD math classes 🎉👏🏽

Awesome work man now I can do more testing 💪🏾💪🏾💪🏾

I dont understand everything in ur vids and thats on me but i still like to watch them to try understand the game more keep it up💪🏼 i would like to see a build video on some guns and chars with ur knowledge

Love this kind of content for the first descendant awesome vid!

Восхищаюсь вами профессор! с недавнего времени смотрю каждое ваше видео и прошу продолжайте в том же духе! нам нужно больше математики!

i hope in the future you can turn off the automatic white adjustment of the camera. just the beginning of the video with felt 314x cuts each time the "black" top has a different color. crazy

Round 2 Let's go! Next stop, breaking Kyle!

leveling weapons is annoying even with the bunny cave or whatever else so I'm still questioning what weapon to put materials into. i know that it is probably based on what type of content I'm doing, and somehow that hasn't really helped me finalize my decision. i have got my bunny and my thundercage both to mid power maybe, and i have heard at least one person saying that you can beat the entire game with just a thundercage its so good. but if i already have a bunny for mobbing, i am not sure that i need a mobbing gun like thundercage to be maxed. i just barely managed to get a python finished and tried a bit before work to get the leveling going. since it was such an issue to get one, i wonder if i could manage or mentally last through getting more to at least reduce the recoil. after all of that I'm not sure i would want to up a Tamer, but perhaps the answer is a eternal willpower. at the end of the day i just don't know, perhaps by the time i am finished farming the last piece of Ultimate Gley i will have more of a clue. although i realize that perhaps if i am going to use Gley for bossing, then maybe that simply means to all in the vestigial organ.

I really, REALLY, want a Valby build from you. I can't wait til you start building. Liking all your videos and can't wait to see some builds. I really wanna know how to best build Valby for skill damage effectively.

Dude just put on the coolest looking gun like everyone else

Gley has unlimited ammo with some builds so the formula for her is the cast rate of her ability rather than the reload time and then you would have to factor in the duration to determine rounds fired rather than rounds per mag

Reloads animations are only canceled if your roll or skill animation take equal to or more than the frames left for reload, it is not saving time just allowing you to have more movement

small question, but i was looking which module to level and i saw that some modules that have 2 attributes like Pinpoint shot has firearm atk +8% and weak point damage +2% only increase the first stat, at least thats what the stat preview showed me

I don't think you factored in the fact that the reaload animation can be cancelled in half and still succesfully reload. It probably won't make a huge difference, but it is potentially a factor in dps calculation.

You can shoot earlier by doing a "skill check", if you shoot as soon as the descendant puts a mag in the weapon, it's an intended feature to lower reload times, at least that's what I heard from a streamer.

You’re awesome dude. Thank you for doing all the math for me so I don’t have to take the time lol

would be intersting to know if passives that have firearm atk listed as the value for the proc generated actually take just flat firearms as value for that proc or if they take weak and crit into account to. so far i presumed they dont. that its just firearms atk. so im maxing out my t4 thunder cage base atk first. sitting at 500k sheatdmg atm. cant remember base atk value.

Reloads get cancelled by shooting or rolling, etc., it's not that the reload time is off, it's that you're able to shoot before the reload is fully finished. (You can see your reload bar going away before it's full). This is because games often give you the ammo count, before the animation is fully finished. Meaning if you can cancel the animation; 'Reload Canceling', then you can get out a bit more DPS, this is common in other shooter games, but it's not as common for you to be able to cancel a reload by shooting, making it very useful in this game in particular. I should note, this doesn't make your numbers wrong, it's just less of the game having wrong reload timers, and more of a simple common bug in shooters, allowing you to dish out a bit more DPS.

Im not sure if you know this: for a majority of guns if you roll in the dead middle of the animation or later you can lessen you reload time in half.

"And that is why... I'm psychic" 😂

Some guns can reload cancel without any canceling like Fallen Hope. You just hold the trigger down and it will start shooting when the reload bar is at 70%. No rolling, no skill cast, no sub melee.

probably a rounding error caused by floats data types for values that should be integers. Add server tick rates into that equation and there's definitely going to be something off.

You can Cancel the animation of the reload by maintining the shooting button,rolling,using abilities,etc. It seems that it's what happened in de 2,2s and I experienced multiple times with different guns. I think it's based on the reload time.

A personal dps meter in the game would be nice. I've beaten all the hardmode bosses solo that I've attempted but i def want to know what damage I'm pumping out.

Every single weapon I've used reloads faster, then stated. On top of that you can reduce the reload time even more by cancelling it with a skill. In regards to dps everything feels so off the statsheet

I do want to ask, if you calculated the Crush/Pierce/Burst damage factor that each weapon has.

Have you accounted for the code related to time ping etc. It can be anywhere from micro seconds to seconds per second. If it is off by 500 milliseconds per second over 6 seconds, thats almost 3 seconds. At 250ms, it's more like 1.5 seconds but it's always going to be within a range depending on your connection to the server. The math would relate to your connection.

I really don’t know much about math and stuff and the question maybe is dumb ig but could it be that the connection to the server has influence on this?

Have you got multiple channels or has KZfaq unsubbed me? I've been subbed since you did the calculations for Remnant 2's damage and armour but for some reason I've had to resub

I’m curious what the most mathematically perfect Thundercage is, brilliant stuff as always!

Learned long division and advanced arithmetic to learn the exact numbers of every single shot so now the games fixed and every piece of content is easy now 🤗

So if the weapon DMG is off for every weapon, and I am comparing a gun that does 10k DPS and a gun that does 9k DPS, since both of those numbers are incorrect, I should still use the 10K DPS gun. Is that correct? Or is it more complicated that?

you're doing the real work. well done

@ryechew So I found this yesterday - using two of the same type weapon and modding one for mag size: kzfaq.info/get/bejne/bNqqYKmXnM27gIU.html Does this actually hold up / help dps / math checks out? I'm skeptical as I haven't tried it myself yet, and wondering if it is intended or a bug?

Not related to the vid, any reason why the hp to shields gold mod doesn't work right? Or maybe its supposed to just be a terrible mod

The reason why the reload time is cut short is because of an oversight in the game. Once your character puts a new magazine in their gone it is "reloaded", you don't have to finish the reload animation and you can continue firing if you cancel the reload with a dodge/melee or by holding your fire button during the reload. Holding your aim key can also cancel the reload as well as you can't reload while aiming and the game won't allow you to aim until it is in that "reloaded" state, in which you will also be able to fire on the same frame you aim down your sight. Because of this oversight, there's a reduction to reload time of all weapons (though it isn't consistent because of reload animations being slower than others). If you can figure out the timing of this cancelation for all weapons then you'd be able to find the true effective dps of all weapons but it would be so much work that it's likely better to just calculate with the given reload speed in-game or cut off 20% of the reload time for all weapons and have an approximate dps for all weapons instead of a true dps.

did you share the spreadsheet with all the weapons somewhere?

Before watching.....I'd guess maybe range? Being out of optimal ranges for what you're using? Orrrr some weapons have like critical modifiers?

So what is the deal with prefixes in this game on the common weapons? Like what is the difference between an Ominous Hound and Nightmare Hound if they are the same gun?

Nexon watching this video and going like... Dude, who has the time to sit there and watch our Gun animations frame by frame and math them together... w.e lets figure out our next Money Grab.

soooo where is the spread sheet for all weapons with correct values? xD good work! greets from germany

I think the difference in time can be accounted for by the lost of the final "firing cycle" that is interrupted by the reload animation. For example, the gun you used fired 3 bullets per second, which means that the time in between each shot was .3333... seconds. The final "firing cycle" of .33333 seconds never occurs because the reload animation starts IMMEDIATELY after the final shot. This would subtact .3333 seconds away from you initially calculated cycle time. Obviously this is different than the .24 seconds lost during your experiment, but a .09 second difference could easily be attributed to visual misrepresentation, frame limitations, human error, etc.

Why would you factor in the reload time when calculating dps? You're not firing or hitting a target?

Here we go!

In game ticks not IRL seconds possibly for anomalies

Am I the only that though there is a float casting as an integer on some type of weapons that lead to faster reloading ?

Idk if this makes a difference but if you tap the fire button towards the end of the reload he will start shooting sooner than if you were to hold the button down

Below video 2nd tip talks about reload cancelling. 4:25 in. Different weapons can be cancelled at different stages into reload time. It varies quite a lot. kzfaq.info/get/bejne/eaqfoMtmy7jUc2w.htmlsi=At3fNMpBz3F9Fkeq

I wish the game added the extra damage from the randomized Firearm ATK% stat. And maybe an extra tab to add up the bonus damage to colossi/vulgas groups. Though that's just me being lazy to add up myself. But applying percentages to a number, I never understood. I failed math hard during my days in school.

Have you put factor of fps? Anther game had same issue and found out it was fps

Hey can you do a video explaining elemental damage? I was doing some testing and noticed elemental damage was very inconsistent and the damage that you do would always be vastly lower then what your elemental damage stat is. I was using a forest gaze with 182,683 fire damage on it against dead bride solo and the fire would only hit for 50k-80k damage on a non crit

Yo Nexon, while you're all studying this, can y'all remove the -20% accuracy on the Lv. 4 unique ability for Fallen Hope? I'd prefer to not catalyst an accuracy mod on a MAXED ULTIMATE ASSAULT RIFLE. Anyway, thanks, math guy.

To an extent. This was the argument I had to deal with when trying to explain how Nova's anti armor shells was significantly better than the alternative. You're never going to have the ability to do uninterrupted attacks continuously in a game where you're able to be one shot. So you need to factor in and consider how low reload/magazine needs to be compared to total damage and fire rate that is practical to use. Obviously, this being a non PvP game, it isn't nearly as big of an issue. But I've encountered the problem in other games like DST.

reload stat is bait because reloads can be animation canceled, fallen hope is a good example because it instantly reloads, it has the fastest clip to gun animation speed allowing u to reload at 15% bar if u hook cancel

love it when thing pop off with nerds. they fight with numerical formulas and thesis'

Sweet. I can stop farming for the perforator now… the drop rates are insanely low😑

Bill rye the mathematics guy, good on you for making a stance and defending it with facts. Rather than "trust me guys, I know".

Alot of mods are multiplicative in this game, i hate that. There should be some Mods that become additive to the base stats.

It's important to keep in mind that DPS gets misleading in certain situations where your gun never gets a chance to reload. EX1: Tamer against enraged Hanged Man is a lot worse than other guns because it's effective DPS is capped by the boss's incoming laser attack. EX2: those invincibility orbs on bosses that also have timed self-invincibility. The spreadsheets that don't include cycle time are good for selecting a weapon that has a lot of 'burst damage'.

the math only works if the game is actually firing said number of bullets and they actually hit the target, if they can't even tell us accurate numbers/dps who knows what else isn't happening correctly

Bold of you to assume I hit all my shots

I have a wild theory that may be total nonsense, but hear me out. This involves some weird assumptions about timing and the reload time maybe not being related to the reload bar. So first, our rounds/min is 180, or 3 rounds/sec, or more importantly 0.33333 seconds/round 1. We start our cycle with bullet one being fired at (close to) 0 seconds. 2. Then we add 0.33333 seconds 17 times, to accommodate the 17 remaining bullets in the magazine. 3. We are now at 5.66661 seconds 4. NOW we add whatever amount of time is between the last bullet firing and the reload bar appearing (in the video, we see that at least some time is spent here since, at 5.91 seconds into the cycle, the magazine is empty but the reload bar doesn't show up until 6.13) 5. The reload bar fills (calculated in this video to be ~2 seconds) 6. Some time passes between the reload bar being filled and the first round being fired (this is not necessarily the 0.33333 seconds/round rate, because we aren't actually firing yet). 7. The first round of the second cycles is fired (at 8.05 in the video) and we start again from step 1. What if the sheet reload stat isn't reflecting the time to fill the reload bar, but instead the time from the last bullet being fired until the game thinks the weapon is reloaded and ready to start spinning up the next cycle? Essentially, what if the reload stat is from the beginning of 4 above to the end of 5 above, not just 5? If we just do this math and add 2.24 seconds to the 5.66661 seconds at which the final bullet fires, we would expect the reload to "finish" at 7.90661 seconds. Sure enough, we look in the video, and sometime around 7.88 seconds, the reload bar is gone. But the next cycle still hasn't started. Essentially, at 7.88 seconds into the cycle, we are somewhere in 6 above. I don't know if this is actually what's going on, why you would report reload times like that if it were, or if there isn't something I'm missing or that's being obfuscated by the reload bar animation clipping a bit. But it may be one plausible explanation for why the reload stats aren't mapping to the reload bar and why the damage calculations are off. If they're assuming all rounds are being fired at a rate of 0.33 rounds/second when the first round may come out more quickly after a reload, the actual dps we calculate would be higher. It would also be a way to justify the drastic discrepancy between sheet reload times and what was found experimentally, that they may actually just be measuring different things.

in warframe we call this sustained dps, if you dont take into account the reload its burst dps

its clear pretty fast the game doesn't calculate weakpoint and ele dmg. you can see that when swapping out modules.

Can you do a damage breakdown for 1 bullets to findout wich one gives best amount of damage to bullets amount

Ah the old using your TV as a whiteboard trick.

I wonder if they do their calculation based on in game ticks and assume it runs at a smooth 60fps (or whatever random fps number the chose). That's the only defense I have for them, otherwise they are simply incompetent, and I hate when the devs can math and the games math isn't mathing.

The reload of ALL weapons can be cancelled. You can cancel it by rolling, and even just shooting again. Some needs just holding the button, some needs to press it (i think for 3-round, or single firing mode) If the reload is cancelled before 50%, you don't have the ammos. If you cancel it after 50%, you have your full ammo and can shoot. EDIT : not all weapons are 50%, the tamer for example is about 75-80%) That's why our cycle is shorter. I might be wrong though

So whats the conclusion/summary?

My thundercage has 13% crit rate rolled onto it The F1 Menu shows me 20+2.6= 22.6% critrate However in the mod Menu it still shows me 20% critrate and if I use the 39% critrate mod it still just shows me 27.8% so I miss the 2.6% of the rolled Stat

Shoutout to Davinci Resolve for being such a goated free editing software

I don't think it makes a difference here, but keep in mind that the default windows calculator setting is not very smart if you click the 3-line-menu in the top left, there is a setting called something like "scientific" (mine's in german for some reason, should be the second option) to give an example: if I type 3+5*2 into the default, it first completes the 3+5 calculation and then multiplies this by 2, meaning it gives me 16, which is wrong. the scientific one waits for you to enter the entire calculation and then does it's job and properly calculates 13 in this example just something I wanted to note because it can potentially lead to errors, though I doubt it would create any here I just don't like seeing the default one in math centered videos is all, great work though, keep it up. don't forget to rest though :) (there's also many other cool options in that menu, for converting temperatures, currencies, mass and many more. and seemingly nobody knows about this)

I bet the reason for the shown numbers is just some really lazy rounding going on

Man i just hope they fix their numbers on guns so you dont have to keep doing this, a dps target like division would be nice too. Idk how acccurate it is but seemed good to me.

man i apriciate you effort and i am happy to see every new video but dont try too much the game mods are a mess and buggy AF.. even the picture and description doesnt match sometime :)) than you can think if the numbers and formulas in the back are right :)) just try resistance mods you will se the clusterfuck

Three things : 1. It won't happen because it's humans that are playing the game. It may be a mathematical world, a human usually won't pull off perfect damage cycles. It doesn't mean your math is wrong though haha, I'm just answering your question why it won,t happen ;P 2. You seem to take for granted that you know exactly when to start the count. How do you know for sure that you are starting and ending the count at the exact same time the game is? Because there can be invisible and/or variable delays with the count, in relation to the animation, the internet latency and general responsiveness. You think game starts the count with the mouse click or at the beginning of animation? Or maybe when the first bullet leaves the gun? There is plenty of of room here for even half a second of delay. I think. 3. You don't have the code that the game is based on, you only have pure mathematics. But the game is a world of contextual and intertwined algorithms so even if it is mathematical in nature, you are still missing some possibly very significant data. The mathematical environment that you are formulating your maths from is like space, but the mathematical environment of the game is probably filled with other things that can interfere. Unless you are a game developer and are familiar with the inner workings of the code-to-game funnel, i'd say you should be careful before saying that this is nothing more than pure maths! So those are the points I would oppose to your line of thoughts. Very cool process mate. You are tripping and are very dedicated! For the love of science ;)

Hey Ryechew, big fan of the maths your doing for TFD, been binging all your videos as they come out lol. In doing some of my own weak point testing I noticed things were off by a 0.5 or 0.6x additional damage mult. Any idea what's been happening there? For example, a base Tamer with no mods has a 1x weak point multiplier. But it actually does 1.6x damage to weak points in testing (crit or not). If you use mods to increase the displayed weak point damage to, say, 1.2x, it ends up actually giving you 1.8x (which is the shown 1.2 plus the hidden, flat 0.6) I tested a few guns, for example I noticed Assassin's Edge (and others) only has a flat 0.5 (displayed 2x, but is actually 2.5x), and there seems to be no rhyme or reason for whether ultimates or certain classes get either 0.5x or 0.6x... If you had any additional ideas about these hidden values, I'd love to hear them!

I have no idea why I watch these I can barely multiply

My favorite math nerd in all the best ways!!! Keep the content coming!

i was farming python blueprint that drops from material pattern 63 at 36 or so % i had to open like 20 of those for a 36% chance drop ive got the 3% drop 4 times before i got the python blueprint