This was beautiful. I do not like how writers did the whole thing that she had kids with Norman and all that other stuff. This is just fine for her story to end.

This comment made me laugh more than it should've.

@@OwenLikesComics Glad I could brighten your day! :)

Got me dead asf 🤣🤣🤣😭💀💀

lmao

I’m sorry but Aunt May should’ve died instead and let her death be permanent instead of killing off a character that Editoral and writers had no interest in using and then write numerous to characters to compensate her

Death of Gwen Stacy once again shows, that if you had superpowers in real life, your life isn't all gonna be fun. Just like what Spidey's origin showed. You need to be responsible, you need to make the choices where you have to lose people for doing the right thing. I don't find anything like that in other superheroes except Spider-Man. Spider-Man was the first superhero who felt REAL to me. Who actually felt like a human being, instead of a perfect man with a perfect life. He is the person who gives you an idea, what would your life be like if you actually had superpowers. Be glad, you don't have any superpowers lol.

@@MetalMadness_00 maybe aunt may is to popular to kill

@@alicianelson1252 not for me

@@MetalMadness_00 Look I get what you're saying, because I too loved Amazing #400, and thought John Byrne's retcon of that was stupid beyond comparison. But honestly, Aunt May's death wouldn't have the same shock and impact of Gwen. When you see the cover, the first choice of "Who is going to die" is Aunt May. So naturally Conway and Romita thought of her first. But then they realized how much more tragic it would be if Gwen died. And in the 70's dead used to mean DEAD. There were very few resurrections done (the only one I can think of from that time was Captain America in the 60's), and it showcases the tragedy of being a superhero. It also made the comic feel closer to home, because people die in the real world, and it gives it more stakes. Especially at the time, certain characters were off limits. The superhero's girlfriend would never be in real danger. The only time they would ever die is for an origin story. Usually, they would be put in some artificial danger created for the hero to rescue them. Thats what for most of Amazing #121 it looked like. Obviously it was a bit more because the Green Goblin was back and at the time, he was in a completely separate class from every other villain. But still, that scene looked like Spider-Man would get the heroic saving his girlfriend scene. The shock at the end was the snap put in by John Romita, and when he pulls her up she's dead. This gives actual stakes to the characters for a while, because now you know, anyone can die in the comic. Although nowadays with the way modern editorial editorial is, its pretty predictable what they'll do.

Coleco 84 That pisses me off. Let the guy grow up.

It pisses me off that they can't kill off Aunt May like he's an adult he doesn't need her anymore thank God PS4 Spider-Man killed her off

Coleco 84 this is the main reason I why I don’t like Spider-Man anymore

Coleco 84 Which has stunted his growth as a character. There's nothing wrong with a mature, Peter Parker that's successful and married ( preferably to Gwen, as that was the idea ).

@@rodneyholmes5260 👍👍

ham

and how they can't seem to deal with their emotions. It's fine to feel sad and upset about the situation, that's the response the creators hope you get. Don't go shouting at them because they made you feel things. That perpetuates the idea that comic book readers immature.

You know i sometimes wonder, do some of these comic readers learn any lessons from these characters? Or they just read it for fun, and when comics takes risks, they get all pissy about it. I think those are the people who thinks politics don't exist in comics lmao. Bunch of immature fans.

@@grifalton They absolutely don't want the writers to tell the story how the writers wants to tell.

@@thespider8654 The problem with that statement is that may have used to be true, but now thats just the excuse the executives and editorial use to justify their stupid decisions, stating the idea of immature fans. And they use that as an excuse to attack fans online who question their decisions. This was at its height under Bendis. Luckily, Bendis is gone, but Marvel especially still has to recover from their years of stupidity. Like Mark Waid attacked one fan for tweeting to him that he respects that he can write but he want, but didn't like the story. Waid responded by calling him all sorts of stereotypes and names including fans not being able to accept things. Quesada used the same fan excuse for One More Day, in which Marvel editorial and Quesada were the stupid ones for forcing JMS to write the story, the fans were the ones rightfully enraged at the erasing of 20 years of development so that Quesada could have his vision of a single young Spider-Man and name new characters after his family members. So no, Marvel Editorial is the one that never allows writers to take risks and resets the Status Quo. Clone Saga, One More Day, the Plane Crash, etc. All of these were mandated by the editorial and hated by fans, so don't tell me that its all the fans fault cuz thats just bs. And yes I acknowledge that there are some fans that are ridiculously and unreasonably pissed over stuff, like they were with Slott in Superior Spider-Man, but thats usually temporary, or just a small portion of people that give fans a bad reputation. And those kind of people are in literally any fandom of anything. There's a difference between acknowledging and addressing politics in comics, and shoving in messages to fit an agenda. For decades, comics were made to reflect social and political issues. Superman was created as a symbol of hope for oppressed Jews and Apocalypse was Nazi Germany. Captain America was created as basically a what if for WWII. Spider-Man was created to represent the struggles of the everyman. But note, it was addressing issues and taking them into account, NOT clearly being used as a medium to influence readers political opinions. Marvel NOW!, All-New, All-Different Marvel, and Marvel Legacy all were times when Marvel basically started promoting Social Justice messages into many of their books, and many of the ideas of the progressives. And I'll try to keep politics out of this as much as I can, but sadly, in the 2010's editorial's main goal was no longer to tell stories about the characters, it was to send political messages specifically created to change peoples opinions. This has gotten better since the Fresh Start relaunch and Bendis leaving, bu the damage has been done. So fans are understandably pissed at being forced to read material that basically no longer cares about its characters, just about political messaging, which is why comics have decreased in popularity. Of course, editorial will say its because of immature fans, though. When people say they don't want politics in comics, they mean they dont want political messaging. So no, I would say nowadays, people dont hate comics because of immature fans, its because of stupid decisions made by the editorial, who are the immature and irresponsible ones that restrict the writers.

@@grifalton what is it about comic books that cause readers to become incredibly fucking anal if anything becomes permanently changed?

Even though he was Harrys father, He was a villain so no love loss for the evil doers.

Peter and Gwen were as close to the perfect relationship as he could have. Perfect isn’t necessarily boring. If you wanted to keep him on a teen mode then what better way to do it than to have two woman constantly trying to win him over or getting so frustrated they threatened to leave him all together and that is his turmoil as Peter Parker post teen years.

@@chancegoode173 Its funny how so many people misinterpret this. Gwen used to be an interesting character, but over the last 30 issues had gotten very one note and boring. They tried inserting drama by having her blame Spider-Man for her father's death, but then she forgave Spider-man a few issues later after seeing his heroics in London (which Dan Slott clearly doesn't remember). Then the only thing interesting about her was that she loved Peter. All the personality from back in ASM #31-66 was gone. So Gwen wasn't really an interesting character. Fans didn't hate her, but MJ was definitely way more interesting. So perfect and gotten boring because it didn't really add much to Spider-Man at all.

Hehehe you think Ben is in heaven. Didn't you know that he robbed the store himself and then committed suicide

@@jonnyp1340 that's amazing Spider-Man movie

Oof, too soon

SHAME

@@williamtimonen6814 yes

That's a really good idea, I'll definitely make a note of it!

At least there's someone who actually understands the importance of MJ. As much as Gwen is important in Peter's character growth, MJ is equally important in Peter's character's growth too. I always saw MJ as an annoying character because of the movies, but after reading the comics, I fall in love with her, and I feel like she is the perfect person to spend the rest of her life with Peter. But marvel doesn't wanna agree with that.

@@thespider8654 Totally agree. It's baffling that MJ is the most important supporting character in the entire Spider-Man mythos and yet she's never been done right outside of the comics even once. The "Spectacular Spider-Man" cartoon was the rendition that came the closest, but like everything else in that wonderful show, it's premature cancellation prevent it from reaching its potential.

@@XanderVJ Even Spider-Man PS4, which is a love letter to Spider-Man. It's actually really emotional how badly she's treated in the media. At least Gwen got the spotlight in the media. But never MJ. Except like you said, the spectacular spider-man tv show.

Man. All this MJ love and here I am still stuck on Peter getting back with Betty Brant😄

They shouldn’t have killed her off to begin with just keep building up her character and then make her Spider-Gwen

Spider-Gwen is way better than 616.

@@MetalMadness_00 how would they have done that

@@MetalMadness_00 no

@@mikesmith145 yes

honestly I have no idea why they did it in the Raimi Trilogy we know Mary Jane was never going to die

@The Goddamn Batman Sandman didn't die he just flew away

He’s not supernatural that I plus magic

I'd say the Silver Age ended a few years earlier, when Kirby left Marvel and when Neal Adams started drawing Batman.

@@jacthwakk8328 maybe the end started then..gwens " snap " was the nail in the silver age coffin. Comics would never be the same

@@ronniejdio9411 That was the time, comics were like "You don't think comics or superhero stories can't be mature? How about read Death of Gwen Stacy?"

@@thespider8654 they ripped kids heat out

This isn’t sincere… ur a Mary Jane stan you never cared that they got rid of Gwen instead of just them breaking her and Peter off. Shame shame.

Easy. The death of Gwen was meaningful, was narratively sound, they treated all characters involved with respect, and the death had a profound impact on the story of Spider-Man as a whole, both in the short and the long term. DeWit's death was all shock value and little else. That's why the trope is called "Stuffed in the Fridge", and not "Dropped from a Bridge".

@@XanderVJ Couldn't agree more!

Hey is your refrigerator running

​@@XanderVJ I'd argue the main reason Gwen is remembered different is just.... her death was the first time that sort of trope was done in comics, so of course its remembered as a more impactful moment and less so a "geez comic books treat females like shit" moment. In reality I'd argue Dewits death had a much bigger impact on Kyle than Gwens death did on Peter really. Alex's death was essentially more akin to Kyle's uncle ben, her death is what signifies when he stopped treating the entire situation like a game and actually had character growth. This is even directly called back to multiple times where Kyle laments on the fact he continues to be a hero because he knows its what Alex would tell him is the right thing to do, and that it was her talks with him and her encouragement that led to him developing the way he did. To call her death "shock value and little else" is just a blatant lie, the only thing about it that was for the sake of shock value was how gruesome it was, which granted, is probably the worst part about it and why its fair to criticize it somewhat but in the end, to say her death wasn't planned or was just there for shock value is silly, its clearly meant to be the turning point for Kyle as a character, the people who created him have even compared him to spiderman before so that's clearly what they were going for. Meanwhile, Gwen was killed off because everyone knew Mary Jane was going to be Peters real girlfriend in the long run and as a result, she was expendable. The entire thing came from an order to "shake up the status quo" so if anything, its that story that's shock value and little else. I'd even argue that Alex had more agency in her death than Gwen did, as the entire reason why she was killed was because she resisted Major force and refused to tell him where Kyle was, her last act was her trying to selflessly protect Kyle, while to my knowledge, Gwen is just kidnapped and killed. In the end Gwen's death just had the luxury of being remembered as an example of "when comic books grew up" because of it being one of the first times a comic dared to do something like this, rather than what it really was, which was the exact trope that people claimed Alex's death was. Combine that with the negative reception Kyle got from the get go due to him replacing Hal Jordan, the fact they for decided to make Alex's death stupidly brutal and the TWENTY year gap between the two comics, yeah its no wonder why Alex's death is remembered less fondly. So to close, it probably should be called "Dropped from a bridge".

@electricmaestro I agree with you.

Exactly they should’ve kept Gwen alive

Meanwhile, for me, despite all the sufferings that mj has faced and how good a character she has evolved to, I still hate mj and prefer Gwen on any day. Why? Read the issues 140- 150 original clone saga and you will get to know. it made me hate both mj and Peter despite earlier liking them after gwen's death. And I wanted to kill aunt may with my bare hands after these issues. The way they treat the Gwen clone here, made me feel mj and Peter should always be together so that could mentally be affected through their on and off marriage of 5 years

Exactly. Meanwhile, for me, despite all the sufferings that mj has faced and how good a character she has evolved to, I still hate mj and prefer Gwen on any day. Why? Read the issues 140- 150 original clone saga and you will get to know. it made me hate both mj and Peter despite earlier liking them after gwen's death. And I wanted to kill aunt may with my bare hands after these issues. The way they treat the Gwen clone here, made me feel mj and Peter should always be together so that could mentally be affected through their on and off marriage of 5 years.

@@sashikalachoudhury1803 Also great of the writers to put a clone with no actualy identity in a cab and send her away

Eventually! A Clone Saga video has been in my drafts for months... it's coming.

@@OwenLikesComics I can't wait to see it, your devpted watcher, David M. Dyster.

NerdSync did their own video on the Clone Saga here if your interest: kzfaq.info/get/bejne/j7t6ha1_t9fKmGg.html

Thank you so much, Nick.

The story was an ending of silver age comics

Mr.bannana Gaming My online ID is Defaha This here too.

Phoenix Saga, Dark Phoenix Saga, Days Of Future Past, and Fatal Attraction were result of Gwen Stacy's death. Comic book stories became more gritty.

@@PissG More like mature.

@@PissG Also Kraven's Last Hunt, The Killing Joke, A Death in the Family, etc.

Thank you so much, glad you enjoyed it!

It's been a good while since I wrote this video, but weren't Peter and Harry roommates when Norman died?

@@OwenLikesComics Yeah they were by then. But you said they were childhood friends.

@@OwenLikesComics No wait, you're right. I was wrong to say they barely knew each other when Norman died. I meant they barely knew each other when Norman was revealed to be the Green Goblin.

Gotcha, that makes sense! Thanks for doubling checking

Well actually it was 60's and early 70's but fair enough. One of the many reasons this was created was to end the love triangle/quadriangle going on between Peter, Harry, Gwen, and MJ.

@@goldenstatewarriors9418 Quadrangles exist, we call them squares (or rhombi)

That was the major impact. This kind of story was previously considered off limits, so there was no real sense of danger.

Bet you never imagined one day it would turn out Gwen had recently borne the Green Goblin's mutant fast-aging children in secret in Paris, and that MJ knew all about this. 😉

Thank you, glad you enjoyed it!

Personally they could’ve made her into a well developed character if that was the main problem

@@MetalMadness_00 To be fair, they did and failed. They tried making her interesting by having her blame Spider-Man for her father's death. Then the writers realized they wrote themselves into a corner, because they had planned for Peter to marry Gwen eventually, and they weren't able to do that anymore. So they had Gwen realize Spider-Man wasn't responsible and then returned, with less character than ever.

@@MetalMadness_00 exactly. They could have just shown Peter revealing to Gwen that he was spiderman. That could made her intersting. But just like how Gerry said, they didn't care about Gwen because she was a ditko character. Plus now literally in every universe Peter and mj are together. When I saw tasm 1 in 2012, I thought Peter and Gwen are going to be together but nope.

@@goldenstatewarriors9418 could’ve been better if it was Aunt May i feel they killed Gwen off because the saw her as the most expendable

Tbh I’ve never been a fan of the spider persona craze that’s been going on

I still wish Gwen was alive. But I love Spider Gwen just as much.

Yep.

...I feel like Spider-Gwen would still happen, due to multiverse shenanigans

True but that happen many years later

the ultimate universe Spiderman did it better

DC marvel Fanboy Hell no lmao. You prefer Gwen being violently consumed by Carnage?

@@chka1043 wait what??? That happen??? God damn

Agreed!!!

@@Christ2010Grad thank you ;)

I would’ve killed Aunt May instead of Gwen and if writers thought she was too boring of a character then write her as an interesting one

@@MetalMadness_00 Yeah, it was kind of a lazy move. But still they managed to tell a impactful story and a important story for Spider-Man.

If I have to choose between mj and Gwen to kill I would have killed mj because Gwen is just best and Peter and Gwen made for each other

@@assassinsgaming1367 I disagree but to each their own.

@@thespider8654 It wasn't lazy it was honestly pretty daring and brilliant. Cuz the hero's love interest was considered to be off limits from death at the time. And in the 70's, Marvel's mindset was: Dead means dead! Kinda ironic now that dead means temporarily detained.

Yeah I agree. If they undo it, they know half of their fanbase will quit reading their comics and quit them forever.

I think that's how it happened in the Amazing Spider-Man 2

But they did sent death threats to conway

Sounded like Twitter fan rage if you ask me

@@hill444 Compare those letters to stuff from 2012/2013 when Dan Slott killed Peter Parker. Its even worse considering that death was a t a time where everyone knew it wouldn't be permanent.

@@goldenstatewarriors9418 but it's obvious no one would even lift a finger on slott. It would be pretty much scary to get those during old times. A real letter to your home is much scarier than an angry tweet. Besides we are talking about dan slott he wants any type of attention he could get with the way he acts on social media

@@hill444 Yeah I get that. But lets see how the stories age comparatively and how the writers are remembered. Gerry Conway's story was way better than Slott's so it has aged very well.

Thank you so much! I'm flattered haha

Maybe to keep him interesting and relatable?

They do now, especially Romita. People seem to forget about Gil Kane, who Penciled the issue, while Romita Inked it. Usually the writer is listed first, then the penciler, then the inker, but I suppose Romita also put in a lot of the ideas of the death. Conway is looked at relatively favorably now, and Romita, Sr. is known as one of Spider-Man's defining artists.