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I’m okay with people not liking turn based combat, but when people claim that it’s objectively bad confuses me. like when someone says that it being slow is bad, and yet like thats the point?! like you need time to make plans and think of winning strategies and using all given mechanics to win in the best possible way is the fun of it

Karlach in the game: Pretty muscular. Karlach in fanart: *"SIR, THE MUSCLE DEFINITION AND GROUPS ARE TWO TIMES GREATER THAN WHAT ANY CREATURE HAS EVER ACHIEVED"* *_"MAKE IT TWENTY"_*

Turn based combat was never an issue, its generally due to poor design or people not having the patience to play specifically stategy games particularly of the less active variety. Its preference to the same degree of people not liking platformers, action combat games and other genres. The fact that people argue so unbelievably long about something that is just opinion of what you enjoy is unbelievably stupid

Kinda surprised you didn’t mention Bravely Default which turned the turns themselves into a resource the player can store up or even go into debt to use early.

I feel like tactical/strategy RPGs should be noted as they are a significant sub-genre of turn-based RPGs. (Obvious examples are Fire Emblem and X-com) While they are still turn-based, and prone to many of the strengths and weaknesses of them, they are unique in how they add to the system, primarily by utilising a map/grid system akin to board games, putting emphasis on your and the enemy's positioning and movement.

One thing I'd like to add is that I like turn based combat systems because you feel like you're actually controlling an entire party without having to turn yourself into a super biocomputer in order to control multiple complex characters in real-time. It's either that or the game allows you to control only one character at a time while the rest of the party is controlled by the AI which, to me, doesn't really give me that feel of being the mastermind behind the whole group.

Personally, I think that a good chunk of people who dislike turn based combat played a bad first example of it and understandably had a bad experience, but what I find interesting is that with turn based combat more than other combat systems, people blame the style itself instead of the way it was implemented (compare the amount of people saying Persona sucks because Joker waits his turn before attacking to the amount of people saying Devil May Cry sucks because it expects you to string together combos)

What really makes the debate frustrating for me is when the opposition treats the turn based system being outdated as if it were common knowledge.

The best example of turn base combat is internet debates.

Video Idea: The Predatory History of Gacha Games

Y7 and the Infinite Wealth demo are the two best turn-based games I've ever played can't wait for the full Infinite Wealth

One of the things I'd like to explore in an RPG is gaining more and removing additional turns in a single round. The potential to reward and/or punish players is there, and could encourage attentiveness to the combat. EDIT: I meant "explore as a game dev making an RPG" and taking it to its limits. English is hard.

Wild Arms 3 has probably the most elegant way to balance out both random encounters and grinding. Prior to an encounter beginning, you see an exclamation mark pop over your head and can press a button to expend some of a limited (rechargeable) resource to cancel the encounter - harder encounters require more of the resource. As you progress through the game, you get items that raise your Migrant Level which allows you to cancel lower level encounters without expending any of the resource - signified by the exclamation mark being green instead of white. In addition, because the game does not have a traditional MP system and instead uses the Force system for spellcasting, and HP recovers in between fights automatically (again on a resource system), fights are able to encourage the player to be smart and creative and have enemies that are more complicated than just damage sponges meant to drain your resources up to the boss. Speaking of the bosses, if you know what you're doing in the game you can make it to the end of the game never needing to grind, because the game hands out items called Lucky Cards which double the EXP gained in that specific fight - Mystic one over your party on every boss fight and you should have no trouble being at a reasonable level for every battle. For postgame grinding up to the level cap, you can exploit one of the sidequests makes Creeping Chaos monsters appear on the overworld and their only move throws a crapton of debuffs at your party - since every time one of your character's unique abilities triggers in a fight (such as "Poison Ward") it slightly raises the EXP multiplier for that fight. By grinding against these enemies (which you can easily search for since they will not trigger your Green Exclamation Point - a BRILLIANT means of using the mechanic) you can get a really easy and convenient way to powerlevel before you go to take on the postgame final dungeon/superbosses. Another thing that WA3 does that I love which also is done in Dragon Quest XI is the ability to freely change up your party loadout mid-fight. It's not as significant in Wild Arms 3 but does make the more puzzle-oriented gameplay more smooth to deal with. But in Dragon Quest XI it's so natural that by the endgame you don't even need to be told to swap around and stuff. You can just be like, "Oh, the boss is readying a big attack? I can switch in the tank this turn." or, "Okay, I killed most of the mobs using my boomerang, now to clean up the stronger ones using my knives."

Really quick, in favor of terastilization, the idea of the gym leaders using them to change their last pokemon to the same type as the rest of their party actually works well in a lot of ways. Like for Iono’s mismagius, it’s ability Levitate makes it immune to ground types, and by terastilizing into an electric type, it loses it’s only weakness, which forces the player to find a new tactic when they can’t just tap ‘super effective’ move to win. The rest of Scarlet and Violet follows this idea in similar ways, like Sudowoodo becoming a grass type to bait out a Fire type, only to hit it with a rock move.

Disgaea mentioned, instantly based Blue Dragon has a Turn Order mechanic as well. Although it's much simpler. In Blue Dragon some skills have a gauge in which you can charge, higher the charge the more the damage, however this will put your use of the skill further along the turn order. There's also a red segment of the Guage where if you stop the charge there, it lowers the mp cost. So will you go for max damage at the cost of it happening later, or do it sooner with lowered damage and mp cost?

Level scaling is a double edge sword. Sometimes it good to have an even chance but at times, it makes certain things harder to aquire. What should been an easy drop becomes a task.

The main thing it comes down to is what a person personally prefers. Everyone is going to enjoy different styles of gameplay.

To me, turn based combat allows 2 different benefits over real time. You can focus more on the strategy (positioning, aoes, environment) And you can go crazier with flashy attacks.

The funny thing about Scott's JRPG video is he admitted in the BTS video that his takes were surface level and that he wanted to have a more lighthearted video about the genre since he gets asked about it often. As of this comment he still tries RPGs on occasion. He currently managed to get into a Fire Emblem game with Engage and tried Xenoblade 3 for a few hours.

Pokemon has some interaction with the battlefield with entry hazards, like spikes, that damage pokemons that enter into the battlefield, or terrains that affect pokemon touching the ground, for example Electric terrain protects pokemon from falling asleep (opponents included). Also during X/Y certain parts of the battlefield, like piles of snow, could appear in the background of the battlefield and if an attack destroyed them (no idea how) they could hold an item

The Press Turn System in SMT games is very cool: You have to know the elemental weak points of your enemies to get as many turns as possible. You should also know what the elemental weak points of your group are because otherwise your enemy can kill you quickly

One game that does a similar thing with Turn based combat is Radiant Historia. The moves your character makes affects turn order, but you can also move your turn order so that all your team members act one right after the other, but it comes with risks because not only does it give the enemy a turn to attack, but also makes that character vulnerable. Furthermore, your actions can affect enemy placement on the grid. So while it can be a grind, a lot of battles can go quickly worh the right combo, and it’s a good way to practice combinations before bigger fights.

I'm surprised the Trails games haven't popped up anywhere in this talk because I'd argue they do a fair bit to shake up the usual Turn based stuff. Heck, it's just kinda fun seeing how the combat system evolved for several games. There's a good deal of using movement on the grid to get characters into position to land moves more optimally on opponents or taking into account the range of certain magic spells like buffs and barriers that need characters to be in a certain range for the group variants. Usually, Trails is known much more for the story and characters but their turn based gameplay is more or less Live A Live on steroids. There's also a lot of player power in the admittedly silly amount of ways you can break the game to whatever your whim desires. I think the grind tends to be scaled enough to where you're generally just right for most boss fights so it doesn't really feel like too much grinding unless you want to play super optimal. After the Sky games, the other games added other ways to ease up the grind and reward you for good strategy or play in the way of multipliers. Did ya wipe out some big encounter in roughly 2-3 turns with no damage? Enjoy that fat ass stack. The way you interact with mobs on the field also changes per game with how you can smack the mobs for a starting advantage or down the line, fire a strong field attack that forces a max advantage even on the more elite mobs. I've played all sorts of turn based at this point such as Persona, Live A Live, Golden Sun, Like A Dragon, and SMT 3 and I think out of all of them, Trails is my personal favorite. I'd say it's a neat twist without trying to ape what Paper Mario did by "just add QTES to stuff". That's probably the only thing I really have against Like A Dragon even though I find everything else to be pretty entertaining.

24:50 Ah talking about Atelier to a degree? Nice. There's a similar system in Atelier Iris 2 where everyone uses a gauge order instead of cards, but how it's done is more gratifying since there are two kinds of attacks. Charge ones for boosting your special attack gauge (Which is basically your MP system.) and Break ones (Which delay turn order. Can't use cheesingly due to the turn pushback being smaller every straight time per enemy). As long as one enemy is on the left side of the gauge, you can chain a combo that allows fast SP gain (For mastery of weapons mainly). That balance of when to do charge and break attacks is satisfying to pull off as a result

I didn’t realize turn-based combat caused such rifts in relationships, haha!

Mana Khemia's system is pretty good. Legend of Heroe's Trails series does something like this, but expands on it further, where certain turns can get bonus's (guranteed crit, Hp, EP, Cp recovery, Random status effect, and sometimes even detriments like no damage, or ep/ cp loss) considering that this is completely random, but you have a lot of control over the turn order via Arts, AT Delay, or even S craft bursts to pop in at any turn It makes for engaging gameplay that's fresh every time you try it out. It also has a really nice exp curve so that you'll never get over-leveled and it makes you consider about changing up your quartz so that you have different spells or different stat boosters.

30 minutes seems too short for such a grand sweeping title as ALL turn based. Hmm. Yeah, there's a lot missing. Golden Sun and dynamic changes to how a character plays. Library of Ruina and Predicting vs. Reacting in a turn based system. The massive hole that is positioning if you roped tactics games into this, and the even more massive crafting hell that made grinding even worse. To be honest this was pretty shallow. Not the worst, there are dedicated "game design" channels that manage to be as deep as spilled milk, but the most important point was informing people that everyone fights about turn based vs real time a lot.

The press turn system from the Shin Megami Tensei series is so genius I'm surprised more games haven't copied it.

Shadowrun would be the equivalent of Baldur's Gate on a modern setting, if not quite as grandiose.

24:30 Another game with a turn order gameplay style is Fuga melodies of steel, here though there is a line where is situated that shows when their turn is and different actions determine how long it will take for their next turn but there is also a system that lets you sort of stumble the enemy and make it take longer for them to take a turn but the enemy can do the same. It also has a great story, artstyle and story to check out.

A turn based rpg can be done right. the kind hat most people complain about involve rpgs where you can out level enemies and the rest of the game devolves into turning on auto or mashing attack, but a proper rpg can do so much more without making it feel like it overcompensated too much and end up too hard. just as a few examples, Persona has the weakness system which allows you to fell all enemies and end each fight in a stylish all-out attack. Mana Khemia has a swap in system which makes fights more like a combo trigger then just simple turn based combat, and the game actually scales up properly when you get to the point in the game where you can do it, so it becomes expected that you learn it. Crystal Project which has exploration more like a metroidvania, where if you can jump somewhere then it was likely intended but if you cant then you might have to come back later when you are capable of jumping higher or farther, the battles are standard turn based but the level cap is 60 and optional bosses become stronger and stronger while you have to find the method to beat them at the same level (you can also see their attacks in advance so nothing is a surprise once you start the fight). And ofc games that have more player input without it feeling like too much, time attacks from Super Mario RPG or Sea of Stars, combo systems in battle like legend of dragoon or Neptunia (of all things), or games that just break the mold like Labyrinth of Refrain where you can have up to 5 teams of 3 units for a total of 15 units in battle.... which incidentally doesn't make the game that much easier 😂. Needless to say, i love them and i love discovering new ones.

It’s honestly so cool that you got Surfshark to sponsor!

I played the new game Sea of Stars and I love it so far. Reminded me of Golfen Sun. It's turn based combat has these sorta Mario and Luigi style mini games for increased you can also time defense blocks against attacks. Not to mention weakness and stance advantages. Always engaging. Wish pokemon was remotely updated like this.

On the tabletop front, you do have Starfinder and some sci fi based dnd settings (Spelljammer, Star Wars 5e) if you want the mechanics but not the sword and sorcery.

If you like Mana Khemia, you should check out the rest of the Atelier series (Mana Khemia, despite its title, is an Atelier game). Most of them have the turn-order system you like, and the combat is supplemented by a VERY complex and robust crafting system: you can spend as much time in the crafting menus as in combat or dungeons. This is what makes it so fun: instead of grinding to get stronger, you craft stronger items and equipment to buff your stats. Making a new item can be a very involved process, but the difference in power after you equip it is tangible and extremely satisfying: you feel like you earned that OP weapon by making it yourself rather than having it offered to you in a treasure chest.

The SMT framchise has the best turn based combat system imo Atlus nailed it with the press turn system

When it comes to the topic of Turn Based combat it depends.I love most Turn Based RPGS from old school stuff like Final Fantasy and Dragon Quest to some other games like Eternal Sonata and Xenoblade. My favorite battle systems are obviously from the Mario RPG line up especially the original Mario RPG dating back to the Super Nintendo.Having timed hits is a pretty fun gameplay concept timing your attacks you greatly lower or increase damage.The Mario and Luigi games actually have you dodging attacks entirely by timing your jumps. Now I dont always want a game where you have to time button presses sometimes I just want to relax and play some Digimon Cybersleuth and watch my numbers go up.I dont always need some type of timed hit in an RPG as long as it isnt too easy I will probably like it. I also enjoy turn based strategy games also like the Shining Force and Fire Emblem games as well.I think people who dont like Turn Based games just haven't found the right game yet.

Pokémon started experimenting with turn order in Legends Arceus, and I hope they keep it up with this style.

I feel like turn based combat will never be outdated, until we can have an action system that actually has strategy over skill. RPG mechanics tend to weaken action games, and it’s really hard to capture what makes turn based RPGs special in action RPGs unless it’s Dark Souls. But that is a very simple combat system with only a few types of attacks which simulates turn based combat to an extent while also making stats matter.

When you mentioned environments having an impact on combat and focused mostly on Baldur’s Gate 3 you could add that terrain has effects in some games such as Fire Emblem too, affecting hit rates (unless you’re a magic user) and in Triangle Strategy (one example) height increases range of attack with arrows

I regularly ask the DM about verticality in combat like ledges, furniture, trees, or whatever I can think of in the environment.

6 and 7 were definitely the best ff as they don't encourage leveling up but instead share the Magic.

Imo, you should _always_ be able to outscale all single-player content if you want to, with enough effort. There can be an extra difficulty selection that can _add_ scaling and/or level caps, but it should never be required/forced upon you. The ultimate accessibility compromise. Additionally, I am hoping to make a little RPG series with engaging qte attacks/defenses in the vein of Sea of Stars or Mario&Luigi.

the ideal gym leader team should have some way of countering its common weaknesses. im currently making a rom hack of platinum and ive given roark a nosepass over his geodude. nosepass is not 4x weak to either type geodude is, and i gave it shock wave to help it deal with water types. then he still has onix and cranidos and onix has rock tomb and bulldoze (added in) to lower your speed so that cranidos has an easier time hitting you. you can still win fairly easily, especially since there are more options in the early game (as well as having buffed some of said options). it isn't meant to be overwhelming, and turtwig still cleanly sweeps, but it's still more difficult than you would have had to deal with before where all of his mons instantly die to any of the starters.

27:10 this gag legit made me burst out laughing almost to the point of tears and snort a few times! 😂 Well done Mangakamen!

I love turn based systems, particularly ones where your enemy can take advantage of the mechanics offered. Such as this one is in the area colored like the area you're in but not actually the area you're in(just an arena). A 3D battle where you can block frontal attacks, but have increased criticals from behind on top of unblockable. Does take it easy letting you have free rein on this specific mechanic for quite awhile. First strong boss where my stongest one is away from the party, as well as my tank. Making due with my glass canon, bringing in back my healer and a hybrid offense, after caught up on levels. But boss casually gets behind my healer, pulls out a blunderbuss and one shots her. Throughout if you leave a gap or can't punish a careless dive like that, the boss would go behind the biggest threat/obstacle and take advantage of that critical. The only shame in this case is that so few enemies actually care about positions unless its a gimmick based on the battle area. I do want more and more games to bring in the current area like BG3 does for combat, gets me much more invested prior to encounters/fights. Whether its burning a ladder or choosing how to initiate the battle, plenty of options make plenty of fun.

i particularly like turn based combat because it's a lot more forgiving to people who simply don't have the hands for it. while fast-paced, snappy combat feels great to play to those with experience, a lot of gamers forget that not everyone simply _knows_ how to use a controller or a mouse/keyboard setup. new players will find fighting games or rhythm games MUCH more intimidating than turn-based combat games because they (fighting/rhythm games) require a level of physical mastery that can be more difficult than the mental mastery of turn-based games. while i've got some level of mastery of all three genres, my hands and reflexes also have a few issues that can flare up, and i can engage in turn-based gameplay at my mental peak regardless.

There was a brief time during Gen 6 when I was the 3rd Best Rotation Battle player in the world!

For scaling I strongly prefer the Skies of Arcadia way of doing it. Basically it only applies to the many optional bosses instead of all enemies. For the turn order point; Nostalgia, the Xenosaga trilogy and even Megaman X Command Mission come to mind as good examples. (also Persona baton passing type mechanic) On the there had, I've never been a fan of ATB mechanics. For encounters I do generally prefer non-random because it is better for both avoiding and seeking out encounters. Then it can be brought to another level of engagement by properly implemented ambush/surprise mechanic, encounter linking, encounter chains etc. Also, in regards to grinding and rare item hunting, I always appreciate when an RPG gives more exp and better drop rates for taking advantage of other mechanics. (including ones mentioned in this comment) All of this also applies to action JRPGs that still use an encounter based system. (Tales, Star Ocean, Rouge Galaxy etc.) Of course these aren't hard requirement for a game to be good. Heck, Suikoden V is still my #1 JRPG despite having almost none of the things I mentioned.

18:03 Whilst they don't have the same level of mid-combat environmental interaction (aka: no shoving people into pits or leaping massive distances), I do know that the original isometric Fallout games handle a lot of things similarly to Baldur's Gate (which makes sense, they were inspired by ttrpg's of their time). Furthermore, whilst I haven't played them (yet), I'm fairly certain the Wasteland series has stuck with the isometric turn based RPG style.

Deathbulge Battle of the Bands was an interesting idea for a ATB battle system. The ATB gauge is shared between all characters and needs to be constantly monitored. Each of the different characters can modify how it charges, but also must take the damage if the enemies ATB gauge charges first. Also your buffs and debuffs are applied to the ATB gauge and not the characters. So you have to balance switching mid charge to the tank to take a hit while swapping in the fast character to make sure the gauge charges faster.

18:38 the ability was reworked in the newer games but in the original ruby and sapphire you'd just use a group of pick up artists to collect rare candies for you.

I must’ve played Golden Sun 2 at least a half dozen times, the most novel aspect was its dynamic 2D ‘camera,’ which I’ve never really seen before or again since

CRPGs as a genre in general do what you enjoyed in BG3. If you are looking for something not traditional high fantasy, the original Fallout games were turn based and there is Rogue Trader coming out pretty soon

Bravely Second had one of the best leveling up systems for turn based that I'm shocked it was never copied or implemented elsewhere. If you win a battle at a single turn, you have the option to do another battle for more exp & money, and you can continue until you choose to stop or the 1-hit sweep ends. It easily makes grinding faster & fun, especially since B2ND has multiple ways to do 1-turn sweeps with the right setups. Also, encounter rate toggles should be a thing. Give the player the option to turn it up for grinding or putting it down to zero because area is full of mooks. Again, I' shocked this is never implemented in more games. And I say this coz my main issue with most games is how grindy it can be. Like, it feels unnecessarily long just to achieve something. Be it trying to craft a weapon because the drop rates are absurdly low or just reach that level needed to unlock a move.

for the second point I think you could do the Chrono way. both chrono games have the enemies on the overworld, and generally speaking you're forced to have some battles and those battles leave you always on the right lvl for the current encounter. So if you need more of something for some reason(money, exp, etc) you can grind. but the pace is made in a way that is not needed. (there's a stat subsystem for chrono cross but youll never need it)

Bravely Default’s combat system is my personal favorite. The risk reward system of using or storing turns is so cool. It makes menial enemies less of a drag because you can obliterate them with ease and for tougher enemies the stored turns system can lead to some breathtaking strategies. The thoughts of “I could just barely finish this guy off if I go in the red, but is it worth the punishment of if I’ve underestimated him?” just make the game so much more intense.

Props for including Mana Khemia. Too many people have slept on that game and just how awesome it is. MECHSWORDS FTW!!

My biggest issue with most turn based combat systems is that the focus on numbers. My reaction to tough fights shouldn't be to open Excel and grind, but it often is, because it's WAY easier and more efficient than trying to find a strategy, especially knowing that my strategy might not even exist, or rely on RNG.

As a dude that plays competitive pokemon,the reason why rotation battles where taking about it is because nobody play them...like...almost nobody,and the idea of using 1 mecanic for 1 gen is because mega evolutions broke the game SOOOOO much they need it to go,but the idea of bringing mecanics to the game every time makes that gen meta diferent from the last gen...for example in gen 8 for a long time Mylotic became the best pokemom to the point where if you did not preper for her you lost,and Mylotic stop bieng good in gen 3 the gen it came to the game

27:08 not entirely true. Chess is a game that is entirely turn based and has no story to speak of but is still just as popular now as 200 years ago.

Before Baldur's Gate 3 was released there was a really good CRPG called Solasta: Crown of the Magister. It was heavily based on the DnD 5e ruleset and had a pretty large focus on verticality. I remember taking advantage of the environment by shoving enemies off cliffs ort shooting suspended objects to drop on enemies like the time I ambushed a trio of ghouls with my party being perched on a walkway and I had my Wizard cast a fireball, and wound up killing 2 of the ghouls instantly with the fireball alone because I also aimed the fireball to where it'd hit a chandelier hanging on the ceiling and cause it to fall and that was what killed the last ghoul. Also it's fun when the party starts getting items/spells that let them wall climb or fly and use it to quickly get to enemies trying to snipe from vantage points only for a Paladin or a Druid who wild shaped into a bear and his eagle spirit companion start flying in order to start bum rushing them Only problem I have is that without the DLCs you only get 7 classes and 5 races for characters (though 3 of them have 2 subraces to pick from) It is kinda understandable since the Devs are much smaller than Larian studios.

I love how masochistic pokemon grind subject has fire emblem music in the background as I play Three Houses on maddening intentionally looking for training battles with 3 priests - since they have very limited spells and get to heal 20% hp per turn vaiting them to forests or thickets and swinging at them with brojen weapons until turn 95 (turn 99 is game over) to then kill them - I got 2 A ranks per characters in chapter 6 with no ng+ save.

I will say that the Shadowrun RPGs are pretty good if you're still looking for good suggestions for Turn based games where the environment matters a bit. it's nowhere near as in-depth as BG3 still of course, and it is technically still fantasy, but it's Cyberpunk Fantasy with a very different take on fantasy elements. And since things like guns are commonplace, then any objects in the environment to act as cover can change the nature of a fight. There's also a lot of fights across the games that add specific elements to them like needing to reach a certain point or grab something and evac, or things like that where the goal of the fight isn't just killing everyone else. Also there's class based elements where things like Summoners can get free summons depending on their environment and Drone users can send their drones in places that normal characters can't fit through.

16:00 I point to Chained echoes where a lot of time there are interactibles durino battles expecially bosses

In terms of my favorite combat for creature taming RPG games, my favorite one would have to be Temtem. Although I think Pokémon combat wasn't bad, I wouldn't say they could have had the best combat when done well cause Temtem changed things that made the combat better rather than same combat with better handling. So although I had alot of fun in older Pokémon games, I will say there were ways they could had improved though. Such as replacing BP with Stamina, Stamina is shared between all your moves, making it harder to spam your strongest skills, even more so since you need to wait a few turns before using your strongest skill too, Stamina although depletes faster and it also resets per battle so you don't have to constantly heal unless you have low HP. And because of that, each fights is just that much harder, even more so since there's nothing that makes you stronger mid-fight like mega-evolution in the newer Pokémon game and harder to instant kill the creature so you may have to heal often but because of your low HP which I prefer. It also highlights the creature in green or red to tell you if they are weak or strong against that type skills, making it easier for people who didn't memorized all Pokémon if it's hard to tell at a glance. It's 2v2 by default rather than Pokémon 1v1 (Creature wise, not player, so 1 player uses 2 creature all at once), but Temtem has better teamwork mechanic too. Temtem don't forget any moves either, only use 4 moves just like Pokémon, but you just switch since you didn't forgot, simple as that, no item involved. Lol XD

Great video, great points. Very entertaining. I think one of the largest contributing factors to why series like Pokemon, and so on don't come close to utilizing their combats full potential is honestly just a thing of appeal. I know that a lot of games that did super well in the east are very heavy strategy or apm based, which translates into profit there, but I think generally speaking the enourmous amount of effort it takes into making combat more complex and unique usually does not translate into equal profit for companies. Especially when it comes to enemy behaviours, giving enemy's all the tools to be awesome is one thing but making them actually able to use those tools in a way that is very engaging is a lot harder. That likely contributes greatly to why games like pokemon have a huge online scene because in the hands of a human it's good, but in game it's underwelming because in the hands of a computer it's underdeveloped. Some of my favorite games from my childhood not mentioned on here are games like final fantasy tactics, and pokemon mystery dungeon. Both good examples of combat with the potential to be super fun, but usually comes down to a numbers game because the computers are just not very smart.. Fire emblem on the other hand is a good example where some games do the turn based combat extremely well, but there's a reason it's amongst the most popular tactics games, replicating that is probably more work then it's worth. In comparision, hack a slash combat or especially shooters are really simple to make engaging.

I’m making a turn based RPG with a sci-fi based story. It has elementals which were specifically ordered by the government to be experimented on to learn their inner workings. The actual turn based aspect of the game is very similar to that of Deltarune, but without the skilled based dodging. Instead dodging in my game is just a button, which allows you to dodge any incoming attacks and will get you more energy if you were attacked while dodging. Other than that encounters are pretty easy, only taking 2-3 hits to kill an enemy and grinding is merely an option as with enough skill (or the right equipment) you could theoretically kill off all of the bosses. There is a bunch of customization you can do outside the battle in the blacksmith’s shop which can get you a bunch of different effects on your gear to make them better. There’s also different weapon types which have different QTEs and behaviors. Default weapons are consistent, projectiles have a random number added on, and spears can get you an accuracy score of 9.5, essentially multiplying your attack by 1.5. There’s also also a bunch of effects based on elements that can be combined up to 4 elements. Anything can be combined with anything. Sorry for the long comment but there’s just a lot of work that went into making this and I might’ve gotten carried away, but I think the game is fun to play since half the time it distracts me from actually working on/fixing it.

For those looking at a future SciFi turn based RPG, Warhammer 40K Rogue Trader is in beta now. It's developed by OwlCat games who previously did Sword and Sorcery CRPGs using the Pathfinder System (which is heavily influenced by DND), so it might scratch the right itch.

I never understand the stigma against turn based RPGs but regardless I've always liked them even after getting introduced to real time,strategy or even action rpgs Also at 1:12 there's The World Ends With You!

In Sea of Stars I love the timing mechanic in it. It's a good option to be more optimal.

I haven't played it but my friends have mentioned something called Warhammer Rogue Trader which seems to take a similar approach as BG3. They're also just trying to get me into Warhammer stuff in general.

I’ve been playing the Chrono series and a bit of Persona 5. I don’t think it’s the combat that’s the problem. Rather it’s how the game makes you engage the combat and how it’s balanced. If you remove random encounters and gave the player the choice to engage with the combat by physically touching the enemy like the previously mentioned games, that could greatly reduce the tedium of it. Then you have to make it more snappy and not built around repeatedly fighting. Chrono Trigger gave you the option to grind, but made it more fun to experiment with different party load outs and figure which characters had the best synergy. So as long as you had that figured out, you can avoid as many of the normal encounters as you want. Combine that with a good elemental weakness system (and no overly elaborate animations) and you might have a near perfect turn based combat system.

Someone already probably said this, but a sci-fi turn based rpg that's coming up that i'd recommend is Owlcat's "warhammer 40k rogue trader". It releases on the 7th of december if anyone is intrested.

About Pokemon. Despite me totally agreeing with what said in this part there's also one problem that is totally on the players - overleveling. Catching everything on their way, abusing raids and so on. If you plan your team beforehand and only fight trainers on the way, you come to Nessa at least 5 levels lower. Same thing with grind with many games overall. Like Octopath. You don't need to grind like so many people cry. You only need to rotate your party and all the "mandatory" battles between towns and additional dungeons that can be found will level you up properly. Or in SMT 4 - don't grind, do sidequests! Honestly, P5 overdone it's handholding of player's leveling. And now Octopath 2 is stupidly casual allowing to beat up bosses easily being 10 levels below... if you manage to be underleveled somehow. While SMTV broke leveling with only overworld enemies in open-world. Why something like proper Pokemon, Digimon Story and Octopath without some stupid QTEs or unnecessary mess of types became too much to ask?! =__=

Mana Khemia on the psp is still one of my favorite RPG's there is. glad im not alone in remembering it. (the PSP is subtitled Student Alliance, and is apprently a remake of Students of Al-Revis from an older console).

As somebody who played at least some RPGs as a kid and teen (mainly on the DS), I do be fond of the system. I fondly remember Pokemon Heartgold, Dragon Quest 9, Mario & Luigi Bowser Inside Story, and Chrono Trigger as highlights of turnbased rpgs. Even if I'm more into sylish action games these days (My more recent RPG was Nier Automata, and that's more of an action RPG), I don't mind some grinding and menu managing to come back in my game library (or set of roms) one day. I found it a bit sad that not even the Phantasy Star games could hook you with their more SF inspired settings. I hope you're passing a good end of year, Kamen.

Raihan is the best gym leader because he DOESN'T have a monotype team. Monotype teams as bosses are the worst and easiest thing to fix Pokemon has. I was shocked when I saw a gym leader being a double battle that actually used some sort of strategy. Just to have all that removed in the rematch. Even something as silly has a "only round pokemon gym" would make things more interesting than what we had for decades.

The thamaturge looks really interesting. It's set in an alternate world history 1905 Russia with persona aspects of fighting, it seems. I plan on playing it if I can.

Just gonna say that Library of Ruina is a turn based Korean game with in depth combat and a great story. Only downsides are that it’s only dubbed in Korean (really good voice acting though), has a lot of dark themes (so read warnings if you care), and has terrible tutorials. Other than that it’s a fun and challenging turn based game.

Great video MangaKamen. I love turned based RPGs because for me it creates the idea to strategies your attack.

In one of my previous jobs, where I'd be there for long hours with either nothing to do, or regularly interrupted, I liked using turn based combat games to pass the time. It gave me little to no consequence when I either had to regularly stop combat to help a customer, or if I misclicked due to touch screen controls. But a lot of the time I tried playing TBC games at home, especially grinding character levels, I'd consider going to see the doctor to get diagnosed with narcolepsy with how easy it put me to sleep.

I still said that megmai tensei(shin megmai tensei and persona ) still have the best turn based gameplay I have played aka the press turn system. It makes battle go pretty fast, feel satisfying to proper use and how the game makes you use buffs and debuff. An close second is the Mario and Luigi RPG games as I love that you have to time your attacks and you dodge the emines attack.

About Pokemon: Kamen, I can't believe you just gave the problem AND the solution, Pokemon offline difficulty IS for kids, litteraly, and I'm glad for it because I want Pokemon to be appreciated by the youngest generations as I could appreciate it back in the day when I was the youngest gen. Plus you already stated yourself what the solution is for experienced players that are looking for a challenge, you will have to go through easy mode anyway by beating the League after 10 hours or so but then go grind for the Master Ball rank and I can assure those 10 hours injected in "easy mode that lets everyone have a go at it" will feel so small in comparison to the time you really injected in Pokemon when you were fighting, not the NPC's that need to be jokes, but the real deal: other players that just like you are here to go all out with their strategie and claim victory for the current battle, and ho boy do we all do that once we reach the Hyper Ball and above ranks You could make an argument that there's no intermediate/medium difficulty in the latest Pokemon games but not much else difficulty-wise IF you're not looking for hard mode OFFLINE ONLY, I mean I don't get it, as long as I get to beat another trainer that really stood in my way for me to claim victory I'd rather beat this trainer that's a real person than some coded-in strategy-already-included-in-the-game but that's on me

I feel like the a good question i have is what do you limit to turn based combat

Another point to the grind of RPGs, Paper Mario has the Star Point system where 100 points equals a level up ALWAYS, you can grind levels but if you’re too strong (say a Level 12 Mario fighting a Level 1 Goomba) enemies just won’t give you Star Points meaning that as long as you stick to the main story you won’t be too underleveled.

0:53 OMG the wizard of oz beyond the yellow brick road mentioned!! Love that game, it's so charming

Caligula Effect 1 and 2 has a unique mechanic for turn based RPGs. Instead of there being a turn order, each character and enemy has moves that take up a certain amount of time. Everyone moves simultaneously, but each move takes up a different amount of time. For example, stronger more powerful attacks might take 3 seconds while weaker attacks might take 1 second, giving the option to use more attacks in less time or use more time to take a more powerful action. You can choose when exactly the characters start and end their actions, and preview what will happen before you actually take your actions, allowing you to perfectly time your attacks to dodge or counter your enemies. I liked the mechanic a lot - it led to a lot of strategy in the turn-based combat and every encounter felt fresh. I would definitely recommend it if you’re looking for an rpg with a unique battle system. The story is very similar to stuff like Persona, and I particularly like the characters is Caligula Effect 2.

I'm taking notes from this video! Very good points here.

I think for a more modern (sort of) setting, you might try looking into the Shadowrun video games

Biggest problem with Octopath's scaling is that the bosses scale unequally. For some it makes no difference except marginally increased stats. Others actually get much harder especially if it's exactly the fourth boss you fight (since the "scaling" only applies to the chapter 1 bosses up to 4 party members). Not a good example of scaling done well in turn-based games in my opinion.

I don’t mind turned based combat as a whole, but the JRPG kind of combat I’ve never cared for because it always felt spammy from what I remember, although I haven’t tried it for years so I may change my mind. I tend to prefer combat like Xcom (which I believe is called turn based tactics) because while there’s definitely an RNG factor, but it feels like your decisions matter more since I felt like I couldn’t just spam the same strategy every time. Another example is FTL:Faster Than Light. Speaking of that game, while it’s not on the level of BG3s environment in battles (which reminds me how much I need to play this game), FTL has various battlefields that add different effects (like solar flares causing fires, or nebulas disabling your sensors).

Namco X Capcom/Project X Zone 1 also has ways to change up turn order or take another turn for certain characters.

I think Tales of Symphonia did random encounters really well. It's just shadows on the map, but you can decide to interact with them or try and avoid them. Panzer Dragoon Saga was created as an JRPG in order to tell a story, thus the grind was completely taken away from the game. It unfortunately made the game WAY too easy, but it's still a really great experience even with that flaw. FFX had turn order and lots of different ways to alter them.

Rotation battles were so underrated

Just wanted to give a shout out to Fuga Melodies of Steel. Only had the game for a few days, but I think it deserves more attention. It's a game about a group of children thrust into a wartorn journey on a giant tank called the Tarranis to save their families. I wanted to go into detail about the gamrplay, but this comment was getting too long, so instead I'll just say it is, essentially, an "on rails" jrpg with resource management that makes combat an endurance test where you'll have to make decisions on how best to proceed and which characters you focus on.

First..... RPGs am i right? 0:50 Ah a Fellow Obscure RPG Connoisseur. 12:29 You mean Mother 2. 14:43 I understood that reference.

I like Mario & Luigi and Sonic Chronicles way of doing it, where you need to time button presses to match the attacks

Havent thought bout Mana Khemia for so long....man miss those games. Missed Ar Tonelico as well