Over on the second channel I responded to a ton of the comments from this video! More Muppet talk! kzfaq.info/get/bejne/adt9obSJuMvPj58.html

A couple years back, Frank Oz was a guest on Wait, Wait, Don’t Tell Me. The hosts asked him to do one of his voices, and he got kind of offended, saying something like, “These voices are characters. They’re real. They’re not party tricks. I won’t just do a voice for this show, because it demeans the character.” The audience applauded.

The reason why you don't see youtubers from the waist down isn't because they are all actually puppets, but because they're not wearing pants.

We need to bring the Muppets back; The Muppets can host awards shows, they can appear everywhere like *_Muppet Knives Out_*

The little girl telling Kermit she loves him always breaks my heart

I haven't watched yet, but I saw someone on Twitter suggest that a Muppets version of pride and the prejudice should be made starring Adam driver as the only non-muppet and I've never wanted something so badly in my life

That online post about how Michael Caine and Tim Curry were the best Muppet guest actors because one respected them as an actor and the other as a fellow muppet? Yeah, it's still a spot-on assessment.

Not getting a second season of the dark crystal is a travesty, the 1st season was incredible

People talking about 2023 Doctor Who puppets are forgetting one of the most iconic puppet characters ever created: the Daleks. Yes, they are puppets, there is a guy inside on a tricycle and he moves the arms and face plunger as well as light the head lights when they talk. Their movements look organic because there IS a creature inside handling the chasis, like it is in universe.

There's a reason Henson is basically universally considered the greatest puppeteer of all time, exceeding even his best friend and frequent collaborator Frank Oz. He brought robotics into puppetry when robots was still in its infancy. Big Bird relies on streaming video to function... In the 1970s! They broadcast the recording live and had a TV in the costume pick it up so Carrol Spinney could see what was happening despite no vision inside the costume. And Spinney was so talented he could ROLLER SKATE while watching himself in 3rd person view on a tiny bit heavy old CRT television strapped to his chest... WHILE ACTING with a hand over his head and controlling both arms of the bird with one arm and a pulley.

Rick Moranis’ performance in Little Shop of Horrors is not talked about enough. Because Audrey II was filmed at half-speed, every shot where Moranis is in frame with the plant, he’s moving at half speed. You can just about see it if your looking for it, but it looks so natural at normal speed you’d never guess if you didn’t know. Rick Moranis: is there anything he can’t do?

The Muppet Christmas Carol is the greatest A Christmas Carol adaptation and you will never convince me otherwise.

Part of the reason that Jurassic Park holds up so well is that it uses a combination of practical and computer generated effects. The team clearly had an eye for which to tools to use in which contexts.

As a kid in the early '80s watching The Empire Strikes Back, not once did I think of Yoda as a puppet despite having grown up with Sesame Street and the Muppet Show. Absolute movie magic.

Watching this only because I hope The Dark Crystal reboot will get mentioned and get its well deserved flowers... a crime Netflix cancelled this

Stuff like the fnaf movie (which was done by Jim Henson’s creature shop) gives me hope that this era of puppetry isn’t entirely dead .

Patrick doing a almost hour long video essay on Muppets cinema is something I didn’t know I needed but I’m so glad that I did

Probably my favourite memory from working in hospitality was serving Bret McKenzie and the entire cast of the muppets. It was so much fun and full of love.

Patrick, I'm disappointed you didn't mention Dinosaurs. It's one of the greatest sitcoms ever made and it rarely had a human on screen.

One great example of puppet use was the Henson Company’s work on Farscape. That was a show with multiple characters that blended seamlessly into a live action cast with some early CGI thrown in for things like spaceships. Well worth a look for its exceptional effects.

So glad you mentioned The Dark Crystal: Age of Resistance. It was by far the best fantasy epic series since the original Avatar: The Last Airbender. They really did find a great sweet spot of how to add to the puppetry with CGI without it getting too distracting, as well as just how to build on the original story without lessening it.

One of the best thing about Doctor Who's soft reboot has been those juicy juicy muppets.

away from the big screen, Doctor Who is doing a lot of great practical effects lately, with characters in the recent specials like The Meep and the Goblin King being a mix of live action puppetry enhanced with CGI features

Finally my insomnia pays off

This year is the 10th anniversary of Muppets Most Wanted(one of my top 3, S tier, god tier Muppet films), and the 45th anniversary of The Muppet Movie.

Muppets Treasure Island is one of the greatest films of all time. Top 1, don't @ me. Hans Zimmer, Tim Curry, and Jim Henson is a maelstrom of a trio that no one deserves or gives the proper credit to. I'll die on this hill.

This video made me realize how challenging the 2nd season of the Netflix One Piece live action series could get if Chopper (as well as Caroo and Lashes) becomes a Muppet, but if done so well, it could be immensely satisfying.

I'm shocked that you never mentioned Peter Jackson's _Meet the Feebles_ (1989)!

"You know my fellow b boys call me Quixote and I'll tell you why, it's because I be devastating on windmills." is such an incredible joke, holy shit.

One of the significant reasons for the shift to CGI that Patrick didn't mention is that VFX artists weren't (and sill aren't) unionized, so studios didn't have to pay them as much

I love this episode of Blank Check Podcast

I watched Labyrinth so many times I could virtually recite it word for word. It's crazy how it wasn't a huge hit. It was in our house.

Jurassic Park is used here (and generally by the industry) as an icon of the changeover to CGI. But when you really break it down, it's the practical effects that make the film - some of the most impressive practical effects in history. And the CGI that *is* there (less than most people realise) is as impressive as it is because of in-camera techniques. For one thing, far from being the end of puppetry in mainstream movies, the CGI dinosaurs were actually controlled by physical puppet armatures, moved by Star Wars / RoboCop's stop-motion guy Phil Tippett. The movements of the puppet were translated to the CG model, and that's why they move in such a believable way, with just the right amount and speed of articulation. But half of the dinosaur effects in Jurassic Park have no CGI whatsoever. They were full-sized robotic puppets (with some man-in-suit articulation for the raptors). When you see behind-the-scenes footage, the Tyrannosaurus looks every bit as believable on the soundstage as it does in the film, unless you can see the out-of-frame exposed robotics and supports. When it looks into the car and its iris contracts, *that is a 100% practical shot*. That helped the CGI artists create more plausible rendering, because in many cases they could reference the lighting, colouration and texturing of the physical dinosaur props on set. And the dinosaur designs were produced as miniature physical maquettes, which were then scanned in to create the CG models. But it was always going to look good, because Spielberg didn't take a "we'll do it in post" approach to CGI. During shooting, they'd rig up the disturbances of the dinosaur moving through the environment: creating splashes in puddles during the Tyrannosaurus' breakout, shaking the tree branch that the Gallimimus stampeded over, wobbling the spoon that the raptor would lick in the kitchen, etc. Those are in-camera effects captured during the main shoot, which the CGI dinosaur would later be dropped into, so that it appears to be interacting with an actual, physical object on the set. And that's really the secret to why Jurassic Park's dinosaurs are so plausible: they are a tangible physical presence. By mix-and-matching physical effects and CGI, and adding in lots of shots in which the dinosaurs appear to be interacting with something that's definitely physically on-set, you get the best of both worlds. The practical shots allow viewers to buy into the dinosaurs being physically there, so that they still seem real when the CG elements are added. Terminator 2 is another example of a movie that uses a lot more physical effects than you'd realise, yet also is held up as the standard bearer of CGI changing the industry. Modern filmmakers could learn a lot by really looking into how these films were made, and how it was the blending of physical and digital artistry that made them look so good.

Where the Wild Things Are was an amazing and heartfelt movie, and a perfect usage of puppetry and CGI. Also, a Q for the Replies show: What are your thoughts on The Muppets 2015 sitcom and The Muppets Mayhem?

I’d like to call out the Five Nights at Freddy’s movie as an example of modern Muppet Cinema that isn’t a nostalgia reboot of a classic Muppet Cinema franchise, nor a tasteless adult comedy. Granted, it is still an adaptation instead of an original concept, but it’s still something.

There's a 2023 French arty horror film called Le Vourdalak which is based on a vampire story that predates the novel Dracula. The combination of 19th century language, shooting on Super 16mm and using a puppets for the vampire give it great atmosphere.

0:25 100% The Great Muppet Caper has some of the best practical effects put to film

It's the *tactility* of puppet, animatronic, miniature, and suitmation work that gives it its charm. It forces a certain economy of filmmaking and design, too. (But then again as an hobbyist suit actor, I'm thoroughly biased.) It's why Tsuburaya's hybrid productions still have that charm to them...

From everything Ive heard about the production of Dark Crystal, those puppets were endurance tests. The series deserves another season. Not just the technical skill on display, but the visual design and imagination just is like nothing else. I wanted you to bring up the TMNT suits, but I was THRILLED when you touched on Where the Wild Things Are. I loved that movie and it was just screaming in my head when you reached that point.

Pat! As a fellow New Yorker, thank you for all you do for me! I only just started this but I am already crying because my dad and I used to love watching The Muppets -- his catch-phrase was the old guys on the balcony saying "See ya later, alligator!" I love him so much but dementia has taken him from me. I think Imma have a Muppet Marathon with my wife to relive some memories.

Went to a Jim H museum and got to watch a lot of his pilots, old commercials, and see a ton of his original puppets. One of my favorite museum experiences

I was already 100 levels of excited for this, as a MASSIVE Jim Henson and Muppet fan. Then you brought up DefunctLands Henson docu-series, one of the best KZfaq series from one of my favorite youtuber, and how you didn't want to repeat what that had said. And I knew this was made with PURPOSE

While its a T.V. show and not a Film I'm a little surprised you didn't mention FarScape which the Henson creature shop made for the sci-fi channel in the early 2000s which made some steps forward in puppetry and special effects and is deeply under appreciated show

As an mexican guy, i knew the muppets just for sesame street and muppets baby, but thanks to the @Defunctland series about Jim Henson i learned alot about this beautyfull style of cinema and tv

Griffin met Nobbles’ eyeline and matched his energy, put that fool in a Muppet movie immediately

Jim Henson was a genius and having watched Muppets Treasure Island recently, I can honestly say- JIM, JIM JIMMY JIM JIM JIM JIM. And just know that I mean it.

It's TV, not cinema, but it's worth mentioning Farscape. Two of the core characters are animatronics, built by Brian Henson and company. I absolutely love the muppet characters in Farscape - they are so expressive. In the commentary, the actors talk about how they figured out early on that physically interacting with the puppets made them feel real.

I was waiting for Emma to say: "Did you know that Alex Thomson did camera work for the 1997 kilm The Saint?"

Patrick talking about The Dark Crystal, two great things that go great together… also that’s something I really appreciate about modern Star Wars, they are really pushing and appreciate cool puppet characters.

you missed Peter Jackson's entry into muppet cinema, Meet the Feebles

It honestly feels like Disney is just sitting on a goldmine of potential Muppet movies. With all the IPs they own now, they have ammunition for several Muppet movies that would probably kill with good comedy writers. Disney keeps remaking their animated movies into live actions I will never watch, but if they gave me Muppets Aladdin, Beauty and the Beast, Little Mermaid, etc.? I'm there. Imagine a Muppets version of the original Star Wars trilogy. Imagine a Muppets Avengers movie, the Muppets have so much potential from one monopoly that being critically underutilized.

Why no mention of Thunderbirds Are Go (1966), a full length, theatrically released film with puppets? It also had a sequel.

That Quixote windmills line is pure gold.

the thing that always stuck out to me about the muppets, that a lot of my less beloved modern muppet projects fall short of, is their ability to exist as a studio of muppet artists even within their own narrative. Like, when the muppets are putting on a show, say a rendition of the classic story "A Christmas Carol," it's not just "a movie with muppets", it's a show being put on BY the muppets. They interact with the script, the scenery, and each other in ways that you would expect to see in a blooper real, not the main production. I think their ride at WDW shows this the best, but that element of disfunction is crucial, maybe even central to the charm of the muppets. That obfuscation between the reality they exist in and the cartoon nature they embody brings a certain authenticity to them that I now expect from muppet products before I REALLY sink my teeth into them.

revealing griffin newman like a new avenger,,, man knows his audience

There’s a reason those practical effects 80’s movies and The Muppets are so beloved

Hi Patrick! An interesting story to look at alongside muppetry is Japanese tokusatsu, specifically in the Godzilla series. It started out as a mix of manned puppetry, animatronics and stop-motion. The stop-motion elements were quickly dropped in the series because they were tedious and didn't look as good as the active puppetry. Over time they became a mix of puppetry with CGI special effects, and are now fully CG but with motion capture to evoke the feeling of the iconic rubber suits. The recent American and Japanese Godzilla films are a great example of different approaches. The American films are more over the top and clearly CG, whereas the Japanese films, while CGI, are more within the framework of puppetry.

Back when Stanley Kubrick was making 2001: A Space Odyssey, he recruited the special effects artist Brian Johnson from Century 21 Productions, the creators of various marionette led sci-fi series like Fireball XL-5, Stingray, and Thunderbirds, under the leadership of Gerry Anderson. The puppets themselves in Century 21's productions haven't held up terribly well, but the miniature effects, full of fantastic model vehicles and exploding buildings and realistic landscapes still look fantastic.

Shout out to Farscape. 90's sci-fi TV show with two Henson creatures on the main cast. They really leaned into the physicality of it with the human characters often touching the muppet cast.

It's funny you mentioned that puppets would have no place in the realistic world of LotR since one of its most memorable characters "Treebeard" was an animatronic. When you see Pippin and Merry sitting on the shoulders of Treebeard that is real. They are sitting on a huge animatronic. And his mouth is actually moving. No part of that was CGI. (Also fun fact: Treebeard is voiced by the same actor who plays Gimli)

Doctor Who still uses practical effects very often in its episode productions. The best example being everytime a Dalek isn't flying, whether they be full scale props or remote controlled toys, no joke. And most recently, the practice of using a practical puppet with a cgi face was used in the first 60th anniversary special, The Star Beast, where The Meep used said method, and the 2023 Christmas Special, The Church on Ruby Road, used it with the Goblins. Even in the 60th anniversary special, Wild Blue Yonder, there's a robot that's actually one big marionette. Would've been very good examples of modern puppetry still used today.

What I enjoy most from this fascinating video essay is that it is something of a hauntological look at the history of special effects. By recontextualizing the muppets/puppets/animatronics from that technological perspective, it provides an opportunity to see them for how advanced they really are & to see an alternative to the current CGI-dominated sci-fi & fantasy blockbusters we see today.

A new Gremlins movie has been rumored for years and if it happens I hope they can keep it practical with puppets and only use limited CGI.

I remember as a kid seeing all the promotion for "Dark Crystal" but I had NO IDEA that "Labyrinth" even existed until my dad rented the movie for us one weekend when we visited. I had not seen any trailers for it (and this was at a time when I was going to the movies at LEAST once a month because that is what we did most of the times when Dad came and picked us up every other Sunday) and had no clue what it was about. I think that is one of the biggest reasons it failed, it came and went so quietly no one knew about it at the time. Now, ofc, it's a cult classic.

This is my first new Patrick H. Willems video. I've been catching up, and I've loved everything. This was great!

I'm very curious why you chose to omit the SciFi series "Farscape" that aired in the early 2000s. Almost all of the alien effects were done by the Jim Henson company. Its style wasn't born out of nostalgia, but really pushed the boundaries of a TV show's effects.

My jaw dropped when Griffin appeared in the intro. A perfect collaboration!

The lighting on patrick is immaculate!! for a second it reminded me of ryan gosling from the christmas im just ken video

theres a great piece of Muppet cinema from France that not many people know about called Marquis, from the director of Fantastic Planet. Its a surreal French Revolution satire that utilizes actors wearing animal masks , and prominently features a puppet of the main characters talking pp (trying to keep this comment clean for the Patrick Replies video).

I really hope Patrick mentions Farscape, it was made by the Jim Henson Company, it’s like Guardians of the Galaxy meet Star Wars, it’s a great underrated space opera show

I don't actually need, or even particularly want, my science fiction and fantasy characters to be "realistic" and prefer the theatricality of puppetry. Although I adore the Star Trek franchise, one of my favorite science fiction TV series is Farscape. Produced by Brian Henson, it took everything that Jim Henson's company learned on the Dark Crystal, Labyrinth, Yoda, Audrey II, and Dinosaurs and put it together in one of the most epic shows ever put on TV. And it's precisely because it goes for the theatricality of puppetry rather than realism. Even the characters played by actors in makeup are performed in a broadly theatrical way.

Thank you for reminding me to buy the soundtrack from "Little Shop of Horrors".

How this guy doesn’t have ten billion subscribers is beyond me

I would like to bring to your attention: Thunderbolt Fantasy, a joint Japanese-Chinese produced action-adventure television series featuring elaborate and spectacular martial arts sequences, using mainly hand puppets and practical stages. There's some CG, but it's used almost exclusively for magical martial arts special effects.

One possible avenue for a return to puppets is with Five Nights at Freddy’s, the Creature Shop worked on it and it was a massive success. While I could see cheap imitators just using CGI or suits the series is definitely going to continue for the foreseeable future so Muppet Cinema will live on(albeit through FNAF)

I am a big Muppet fan from Taiwan and I got to say this video is awesome, thanks a lot Patrick.

I was so glad to hear the Where The Wild Things Are mention. Such an important movie to me on so many different levels.

Dude you should check out Jim Henson's The Storyteller!!! It's amazing and Henson's dream project, would love to see a video about that!

I simply must disagree that Sarah in Labyrinth has no character arc, she doesn't have a traditional arc perhaps but it wasn't a defining part of some many teenage girls childhoods just because of Bowie.

Talking about puppetry in TV and film and not mentioning The Thunderbirds is a missed opportunity. I love the acknowledgement of practical effects being just as impressive and valuable as digital effects, though. What is sometimes captured on camera can be truly mind-blowing. A great example is the whale models used for Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home. They where so convincing that animal rights groups went to set to check that none of the animals was being harmed or threatened. They left without a fuss when they saw that no real whales were filmed for the making of that movie.

Have you ever seen The Company of Wolves? I always lump that in with Legend, Dark Crystal etc, when talking iconic fantasy films of the 80's, and I love showing it to people :D

I frankly think the critical and commercial disappointments of Dark Crystal and Labyrinth is one of the great crimes of cinema, and an indictment of modern humanity. I was a kid when I saw both on 80s release and knew even then that they were both masterpieces.

Have you known about "31 MINUTOS?" Can you make a video about it (maybe a side/bonus video at least)

To be little optimistic, I can think of at least one financially successful original film in recent years that utilized puppets: Everything Everywhere All At Once. Racacoonie was an animatronic puppet (and I guess you could argue when the rocks move around that's technically puppetry). That movie used a real blend of effects, which I honestly think is usually the best option when it comes to effective VFX.

Always a good day when you wake up to a new Patrick Willems video essay. Also go watch Defuntland's series on Jim Hanson's career fair warning the least video will make you cry.

Is Meet the Feebles Muppet cinema?

I’m disappointed you didn’t even mention Five Nights at Freddy’s. Not only is it the most recent Jim Henson production and a pretty good “muppet” film in its own regards, but it also partially sparked an interest in animatronics in the modern day!

As someone who makes a lot of videos about cartoons and Muppets, this was terrific to watch as it breaks down a lot of the reasoning behind why so many people love Jim Henson and the characters he helped to create.

This is probably my favorite video you've ever made. Not just because I love the Muppets, but the writing, jokes, and other gags were all on point and got several good chuckles out of me. I know you sort of touched on this around puppets giving live actors something to act off of, but I think you missed out on a great example of this. Apparently, quite frequently when a Muppet is on a talk show, whoever is doing tech will auto-pilot and put the lav mic on the actual Muppet, rather than micing the performer, leading to someone spending longer than you'd think trying to figure out why the mic isn't picking up Kermit. Just one more great piece of evidence for the Puppets really being real and feeling like their own characters.

What a fantastic waste of Griffin Newman and his vast wealth of knowledge and opinions on this topic.

still amazed to see how well Little Shop of Horrors holds up to even today.

Have been waiting for someone to talk about Where The Wild Things Are - that movie hit deep when I saw in the theater-to the point that I’ve been hesitant to watch it again. I understand a movie about a child’s internal battle with loneliness and existential crisis isn’t going to be a commercial hit but I’ve had a hard time finding a solid critical analysis of the film that recognizes what it did so well.

Your views on the Labyrinth's story are infuriating😂

Wonderful! Always a breath of fresh air to see your latest video drop.

Thank you for acknowledging the 'Ello Worm like he deserves.

Great video and congrats on the desk! You deserve it! Also, it seems you changed the angle of your rim light. I like it.

Earth to Ned was a sitcom starring an alien puppet on Dinsey+ that was so much fun but got canceled after one season and even worse, was removed from the streaming service last year. Now the only way to watch it is through "ulterior" streaming sites but I can't even imagine the frustration of bringing an alien to life and having your work removed with no DVD release.

Absolutely great video Patrick! Thanks!

The song of Ello the Worm from Labyrinth performed by Jake Torpy and Nobbles was excellent. I loved it!!!

Ha! I actually bought a year of nebula based off your videos. So I will actually go and watch that conversation now - thanks!