The Rise and Fall of the Fire and Flow Festivals

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2 жыл бұрын

Fire and flow festivals have been a cornerstone of flow arts culture for nearly two decades. They rose rapidly in popularity in the late 2000s and early 2010s only enter into a steep decline in the latter half of the 2010s. How did they become so popular and why did the market for them crash so rapidly? Here I chart the meteoric rise of the first generation of fire festivals from Firedrums to Wildfire and analyze how some of the things that led to their initial popularity also became problems in the long-run.
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Пікірлер: 56

@LauraS1 11 ай бұрын

As an older person just starting flow, it's intimidating to see that most flow artists are young, healthy, vigorous people who can do more than I could dream of as someone who is older, less flexible, with mobility problems. I flow with LED fans (okay, so they're homemade but they do the trick), mostly in my back yard or the living room. It's difficult for me to access flow events due to being mobility impaired, too, so that limits my contact with other flow folk. I've also encountered a certain amount of snobbery within the flow community with regard to my age and physical condition, too, and that can be VERY intimidating for someone starting out. It made me rethink going to flow festivals, for certain.

@mad1739 3 ай бұрын

That's such a shame you've had a negative experience with others in the community! ❤ I recently was at a flow festival and there was an incredible performer who I would guess was in her 60s. She had the buugeng which I'd not seen before and she was amazing! And was really well received I beleive!

@equinox381 2 ай бұрын

Don't self depreciate or make a mountain out of a mole hill, you have a desire to do it....then do it.

@enlightenedcanines 2 жыл бұрын

Thanks, provided the history and discourse I was looking for.

@user-up3qz5rk5s Жыл бұрын

Did I get anything out of this video? I got EVERYTHING out of this video! Thank you so much for sharing! I learned so much, and was validated by some ideas I had. We are a festival in Lebanon, PA that just happened this past Saturday. Our experience is that we are also steadily growing and we have a similar family friendly/sober/inclusive attitude and mission as PlayThink. They were even vending at our festival this year... all the way from Kentucky! I'm subscribing and absorbing. Thanks again!

@npcmiko3985 2 жыл бұрын

This is a great video! It's very insightful and i'm happy to see other people discussing concerns in the community. Btw your 3 beat weave tutorial has been super helpful. Can't wait to show it off to my friends at the festival next month :)

@DrexFactor 2 жыл бұрын

Thank you so much!

@sentinel2592 2 жыл бұрын

Thanks for this video going into this part of the flow scene/community. I only really started to dive in right around the start of the pandemic and am approaching it now from a more tech-y perspective, but was originally introduced to everything through Burns. I wasn't aware of the problematic sides of the flow festivals, and was originally excited about the prospect of attending one, but might just stick with burns and local jams for now. Looking forward to you next video on how you would address some of these issues, thank you for being a positive voice in the community!

@alexgoodlad1003 2 жыл бұрын

Hi Drex! Thanks so much for this video! As a newer flow performer and instructor that will be on my first tour this summer (that definitely fits that "inexperienced artist that wants to be seen" profile), your work is definitely invaluable and I hope leads to some changes down the road. I look very forward to your next video as I plan in my next instructor app to include a seminar style workshop on this stuff (I originally planned for it to be on how flow fests fit the labor organizing paradigm, but you definitely brought up a lot of other important issues that need to be included in a seminar like this one). Keep up the great work!

@SexMusicPlants 2 жыл бұрын

Great description. Started going to festivals and flow events in 09/10. I haven't been to one in years, now. For a lot of these reasons...

@DrexFactor 2 жыл бұрын

You are not the only one!

@Feuershows 2 жыл бұрын

Great video! I just went to festivals twice and the beginning of my career. After this, I loved more to practice in my rehearsel space...

@DrexFactor 2 жыл бұрын

Fair enough! I can also see a case to be made for it being a private hobby rather than a social one. Both answers are right and I think it's up to the individual to find what works best for them.

@Feuershows 2 жыл бұрын

@@DrexFactor Yes!

@Firefaerose 2 жыл бұрын

Excellent video, I forever love the conversations you have with such insight. 👏👏👏 this is all so accurate too. I think my first event was 2014/15ish? It's a bit blurry but with music events fostering more space for flow artists too I can see the timing of less flow events coinciding with that very clearly. And ugh the antivax/mask side made me also not really want to go out of my to attend an event in the community 🙃

@DrexFactor 2 жыл бұрын

That is definitely something I could have gone more in-depth on here...there was definitely a demographic shift at a certain point wherein most flow artists were coming into it from rave and EDM communities rather than through Burns. It definitely resulted in some changing priorities and is likely a contributing factor for a drop in engagement as well. And yes...the antivax/mask thing is still a HUGE problem.

@Firefaerose 2 жыл бұрын

@@DrexFactor I came into it from a lil of both worlds with a foot into both BUT edm is what inspired me to flow so its been a joy getting to introduce and share flow into that world and teach at those events. And oof it really is still a thing. I have been beyond dissapointed in how many peers either ignored c-19 altogether, said it wasn't a big deal or kept traveling through out it all. All acting above it or unable to take accountability for reckless behavior during this pandemic. Not to even get started on the similar problems with mishandling of BLM during same time. Often same people or even regions of people in the flow arts world repeating these behaviors. It's made it VERY hard to continue to flow, or maintain interest in participating or creating content at all for or related to a community that has fostered so much of this. Thank you for not being intimidated to talk about these topics publicly

@alexgoodlad1003 2 жыл бұрын

@@DrexFactor I was just talking with a fellow grad student circus artist about how the EDM scene has been a much more prominent demographic in the flow community as of late, as opposed to people with a more tech-y academic background like him and I (and I'd put you in this category as well), which is a kinda different perspective of flow arts than either the burn scene (at least based on just now dabbling with the burn scene) or the edm scene, which is a huge reason why I've enjoyed your videos. I've heard even in the poi community people with a physics/STEM background end up being still a rather large minority. I'm a hoop artist, and while I do like EDM music and like going to EDM shows, it does feel like I'm in a bit of a lonely STEM island at times.

@kwizzless2046 Жыл бұрын

Anyone know of any of these festivals that happen near Massachusetts?? I really want to go as I’m more of an in person learner, so learning online has been difficult for me!

@DrexFactor Жыл бұрын

Wildfire happens in Connecticut and there was a Northeast Flow Festival that happened for many years, but I don't think it's happened since before the pandemic and the future of it may be uncertain.

@markoneill9889 2 жыл бұрын

This is very interesting and enlightening. I've thought about how to make income with flow for some time now. Unfortunately it's not some that proves to have many options for it.

@pearlc1242 2 жыл бұрын

I'm working on it for some years now. And I always find something new to add to my repertoire. I guess there are more options than you think, if you are flexible on the definition on flow and the events to which you are applying. Here in europe some skills are really rare seen.

@DrexFactor 2 жыл бұрын

There are lots of options to do so...the question is whether you're willing to do the work to make it happen. Plenty of successful flow businesses have been started around prop making, content creation, teaching, apparel, live events, and performing. To do any one of these things, however, you're going to have to identify a need in the market you intend to get into, create a product that fits that need, and work to create and market that product. Lots of people find they dislike one or more parts of this equation, but for those that are willing to get into them there is absolutely no market in flow arts that is currently saturated.

@James-px6hp 2 жыл бұрын

Thanks for making this video. I personally think politics and ideologies have been a major wedge in the flow community. Also the presence of psychedelics no doubt has played a role and there is certainly a dark side to the flow community that is attached to them as well. I love the circus arts and object manipulation, but it’s no surprise that these circles tend to attract manipulative people if you catch my drift. Even tho these things have gotten in the way of people coming together, I do hope to once again spend an all nighter outside in the forest getting my mind blown by fire spinning. Thats what its all about. But alas it ebbs and flows.

@FallingAsh 2 жыл бұрын

I was wondering why all the flow festivals disappeared.

@DrexFactor 2 жыл бұрын

So did I...so I spent years talking to the organizers and finding out what they all had in common 😉

@digitaltutorials1 2 жыл бұрын

I wanted to join Fire Drums around 2016, but could never find the time or money to spend over a music festival. I think it is imperative for these groups to somehow form a segment of a festival (like handling 1 stage), rather than starting their own event. Half the fire spinners I ever worked with regularly were very poor and represented more of a homeless community of DIYers and roughneck-like rebels than classy stage performers. We embodied freedom and skills that humans have difficulty assigning monetary value to. I often find myself also not feeling like it would be worth it to give money to my fellow spinners to watch them do the same stuff that I do. I ended up participating in all varieties of scenes and performances, but never really got too far simply because the economics of spinning is close to null. It's a hobby at best. I only made about $200 cash spinning over 8 years. The businesses that I have supported over the years are still tiny on the scale of things (Flow Toys, Dark Monk, Master Ong, and the local circuses, bars, and festivals I attended regularly). One thing that could create a new method for engagement would be money prize competitions. Make it a "sport". I don't think I have ever heard of a competition outside of some vulcan 10 day challenges online. However, at this point, I don't think anything could pique my interest in poi other than your videos, Drex. I think I'm burnt out for now.

@crackedatlas3235 2 жыл бұрын

I don't know if the economics aren't there but the performance aspect needs to be more than just "spinning the prop on stage" if you're looking to perform. I've made $200 spinning poi in a single night at a show just last month. It's true the flow arts community isn't awash with cash but as a performer you shouldn't be performing for other flow artists in the bulk of cases. Flow festivals are kind of an exception to that but they serve a different niche where it's an opportunity for the community to gather and show off the tech and discoveries they've made for other artists which is a considerably different performance than what you'd do for clients who are outside of the community. Would be cool if flow art festivals could incorporate themselves into other festivals as a way to make things more visible but I also like the idea of having a festival for flow arts. I've only been to one flow festival in my life but it was by far my favourite festival experience. It's great being surrounded by people who share your passion for something. All told it'll be interesting to see what the festival scene looks like going forward, if they still happen and if there's a path to improving the problems that Drex mentioned in this video.

@azhiazim 2 жыл бұрын

Lol ive made over 2k spinning in the past two years. Maybe a change of perspective, a little bit of appreciation, and a buttload of gratitude will change your negative frequency to a positive one and youll land more gigs. I wouldnt suggest lookin at people and calling them "Homeless roughneck diy'ers" and expecting high end classy performers wherever you go. And commenting that on social media! Ooooff, Just callin yourself out....

@RichardHartnell 2 жыл бұрын

Both $200/night and $2k/year are closer to "homeless roughneck diy'er" money than "adult fire dancer" money and no commenter on this subthread this far ought to be flexing on any other. Most fire dancers who are Really Good can/should command around $500+/show and book far more than a few shows per year.

@crackedatlas3235 2 жыл бұрын

@@RichardHartnell I wasn't trying to flex so much as say that there are opportunities to get paid doing this, and it's probably not in the flow festival scene. I apologize if my reply came off as antagonistic, that example was mostly intended to be a counterpoint to the figure and timeline the op claimed in his post. Agreed that if you're only working one show in a month, $200 in a night isn't much if it's your sole source of income. I do this semi-professionally in a smallish community and I'm booked up most weekends this summer with shows. While it isn't "quit my day job" levels of income, it's not nothing, and like anything the more time put into developing it the more gigs are offered. All this to say, I'd like to think that there's a niche for flow artists to occupy and get paid as performers and I'm not quite convinced the economics of spinning is close to null. Performances aside, I think there's opportunity in the education and teaching sphere. Flow artists offering workshops rarely come to my city (again, small) but the times they have, their workshops have been well attended so there's likely something there as well.

@azhiazim 2 жыл бұрын

@@crackedatlas3235 i think he was refering to me

@Ava_The_Avatar 2 жыл бұрын

I never attended a festival before and I really wanted to recently but now I’m having second thoughts considering the racial tensions and the lack of spaces that are safe for transpeople.

@charlesz2271 2 жыл бұрын

And this is why I won’t attend anymore flow Festivals anymore. They were always inclusive and accepting to everyone but during Covid everyone decided to out “woke” each other and create problems in the community that didn’t exist. There are plenty of “safe spaces” in the community

@DrexFactor 2 жыл бұрын

Thank you for bringing up this point! We are absolutely seeing a surge in anti-trans sentiment in the flow community, too, right now.

@DrexFactor 2 жыл бұрын

I've talked to a lot of BIPOC people in the flow arts and for many, their experiences have absolutely not been that there are plenty of "safe spaces" in the community. If you need to hear it from a real person's mouth, The Hoop Laedy goes into it a bit in this interview: kzfaq.info/get/bejne/n6eXi9R21qvMkWg.html

@charlesz2271 2 жыл бұрын

@@DrexFactor I’m sure it’s out there as there are bad people in every community. And I’m not against calling people out when they say or do actual harmful things. But the amount of times I’ve seen other flow artists get “canceled” over something stupid is insane. U wouldn’t be able to have a festival anymore with out everyone trying to cancel each other by the end of the weekend. It’s sad to see how toxic the community has become. I guess I’m not woke enough for flow festivals anymore lol

@DrexFactor 2 жыл бұрын

@@charlesz2271 I find it interesting that your response to being confronted with an experience different from your own is to jump to a different point. Do you think that ignoring those experiences might contribute to a space not feeling safe? If people are not heard (especially when they have something to bring up that is making them uncomfortable and upset), doesn't that kind of send the signal that their those experiences are considered irrelevant to maintaining the spaces they're trying to be a part of? If so, how on earth would they conclude such a space is safe?

@thundercatshooo600 2 жыл бұрын

In my experience, these festivals became increasingly political and unfriendly to those that were on the right of the political spectrum. To frequently, it was about your supposed privilege, your skin colour, gender, and having the 'right political opinion (left). It's sad. Flow should be about flow.

@DrexFactor 2 жыл бұрын

Flow is absolutely about flow. It's also about treating people with respect and kindness. If you're not acknowledging your privilege and the ways in which not acknowledging it makes flow spaces harder for Artists of Color or LGBTQ+ artists then you've made it less about flow than it is continuing to exercise that privilege. If indeed flow for you isn't flow unless you are able to exercise said privilege, then it kind of seems like you're the one making it a political space.

@thundercatshooo600 2 жыл бұрын

@@DrexFactor That's your belief system of how society is organised, based upon a philosophy associated with critical theory. It's a theory that requires you centre identity groups, rather than the actual activity itself. Many others disagree with that belief and approach, including many individuals with the LGBTQ+ society. Flow has always been one of the most welcoming communities. How do I know this? I'm a member of that LGBTQ+ community. Flow should be about flow. The moment it's not primarily about flow, and instead about identity categorisation, is when it's not about flow. That's apart of the reason why flow has decreased in popularity and why people havd moved away from the activity in recent years.

@charlesz2271 2 жыл бұрын

@@thundercatshooo600 exactly. The flow community was always about being inclusive. All of a sudden in 2020 everything became a political debate about race, gender identity etc. it created a ton of problems that didn’t exists with in flow arts. And I’m more left leaning by the way but I can’t stand what the community became. It’s all about who is the most woke and If you don’t agree you are a insensitive bigot. Who the hell wants to deal with these kinds of pretentious people

@James-px6hp 2 жыл бұрын

Thanks for mentioning this. The Marxism has absolutely been a poison on the flow community. Couple it with the fact that many people involved are also burnt out after years of using psychedelics you then have a perfect recipe for hostile and narcissistic behaviours centred around identitarianism.