So now I have a LEAF and Rivian that rapidgate 😅

Excellent that you bring these fatal flaws to light. Your cold and hot temperature testing is key.

I met many hybrid drivers with 10kwh battery who plug in on dc fastchargers because the ac charging rate is too slow for them... the system is built on rational self interest and people will always take the easy selfish option especially if its free

Looking fwd to you testing the just released 2023.02.0 software when you get it installed. One of improvements is supposed to be thermal cooling at DC fast charging. The accompanying app update also includes more detail on charging session.

I did the same road trip as you Kyle, same software version, and had the same exact problems. One caveat is this was when the weather was in the single digit Temps. So rediculous!

Good video Kyle--again! Good info explaining why my R1T doesn't charge as I think it should sometimes. I will put your info on thermal management in my head when I tow on a trip. THX again.

I saw Rivian SUV today in Wild, he drove like a crazy. No chance to take a pic. IT LOOK FANTASTIC. Huge mix of Gelangewagen and Volvo.

They need to have an "advanced user" or nerd modes on these cars. It should provide much more information and prompt the user what their intentions are to plan thermal management and other things better.

I tested the 150kW vs 350kW (video on my channel) and it basically doesn’t matter

Happy to collaborate on that Rivian charging test. Heading out to Colorado on a road trip next week. I’m curious to see how well it does on my 2,000+ mile journey from Portland, ME to Arvada, CO

Great info as always! Love these videos and the charging experiment ones.

If you could watch the pack temps like me you would see the truck derates when the highest temp hits 50C, and THEN kicks in pack cooling. This is a similar max temp as Tesla, but the problem is it doesn’t attempt to cool till it’s too late. Rivian just needs to start cooling sooner, if not as soon as charging at least at a lower temp when charging. Similarly the pack will not accept full 200kW+ rate until the min temp is about about 22C and it can only warm It slowly at a loud 6kW. Watching pack temps live is super useful for understanding any EV…

Kyle, we don’t need to sell Teslas, we need to fix the CCS infrastructure. Purchasing a car is a long term decision, I think you’re getting a little shortsighted now in terms of the infrastructure. I suspect it will be much better in one to two years.

210,000 miles on my 2018 Model 3 after almost 5 years so far and I still charge at maximum speed at superchargers. This video makes me appreciate my car, Tesla's achievement, even more. I can't understate how excited I am for the Cybertruck!!

@KyleConner @OutofSpecReviews The newest firmware (Version 2023.02.0) claims it "Addressed a rare case where Direct Current Fast Charger (DCFC) was slowed due to insufficient battery cooling." -- would be great to get a post-upgrade update from you!

I have enjoyed your informative and unbiased information for many videos now and I only wish I knew you were going to be in Joliet as I live about 10 minutes from there and would’ve loved to see the R1T. I have had a deposit down on the R1S since November of 21 but have not seen either one in person. I didn’t go to Normal Illinois when I had a chance about a year ago and am kicking myself. I am so torn between keeping the R1S reservation (est delv date of Oct-Dec 2023 or switching to the R1T. I don’t have to have it immediately however I keep hearing so many people rave about the usability of the truck. Gear Tunnel, Short or Long Bed, Massing Frunk and so many other reasons. I’m currently driving a Tesla 2022 Model S LR and it’s been a great vehicle but being so low to the ground and wanting to not throw shrubs and rock and stuff in the hatch, I find myself so envious of the possibilities with the R1T. Anyway…keep up the good work and the entertaining videos. I’m a tall guy, 6’ 2” and thought i’d throw that in there as I know I should have a vehicle that I step up into rather than lower myself into. I only wish I realized how low the S would be - even with the suspension raised, and well, i’m in my upper 50’s. Love the Tesla, it’s a work of art and a lot of fun, but I believe I was meant more for the SUV or Truck. Oh how I wish I could see one or both soon. Take care and happy/safe travels.

Totally agree with you. I got my rivian a month ago and got charging issues already. It stopped charging at any station yesterday (( I hope they will fix it soon.

Charging is my biggest disappointment with Rivian's vehicles. It's an extra shame the max pack doesn't seem to have the benefit of 800V charging with lower currents.

Kyle - I can confirm that just this weekend I was on a 150kw EA and plugged in around 20%. It went up to 73% pretty much at the full 150kw the entire time. IIRC it tapered a tiny bit as it approached 70%. SoCal weather R1T 14XXX VIN, no preconditioning but coming off a hilly 50 mile drive

I'm not an EV owner so not sure if they have this, but like ICE cars that may have an octane sticker inside the fuel cover, how about a "MAX Charge Rate" decals at the charge port?

It would be ideal if you could manually trigger a battery preconditioning cycle. There's no current way to do this from the phone app or the truck's UI. It would also be ideal if the Rivian had the ability to see battery temps real time.

In Ioniq 5 and EV6 the on-board charger will overheat in some vehicles during AC-charging (Car Scanner shows ICCU AC Inlet Temperature reaching 100°C/212°F). Latest software update probably mitigates charging speed before 212°F is reached.

I would love to see a display on the dash of all EV's that show battery temp, much like the ICE coolant temp. People could adjust their driving or turn on thermal systems as needed. The EV should tell the user what the estimated charging rate would be instead of having to guess.

Don't call accessing the canbus a hack. You own your car and have the right to read data from a diagnostic port. It exists for owner access. Anyone trying to restrict owner access with drm should be called out.

It was a good thing with dc fast charging with my Mini back in 2022. But I wouldn’t really be doing a road trip greater than 130 miles. I hope they find a good balance someday and really educate the consumer on charging.

Very often I'll roll into my local EA station at about 20% in my Polestar while a couple Niros or Konas are charging and still leave before them because they seem to always charge to full.

and I'm still waiting on the advent of brand new 'stations', just for us EVs, which are basically identical to gas stations, with all pull thru lanes, convenience store, bathroom, snacks, and the like, all while convenient off the road, and not having to 'navigate' walmart parking lots. If every Walmart had at least one EA, we might be having a different discussion, but it seems that rather than spacing out the infrastructure to accommodate more areas, EA likes to 'blanket' a single site. I'm not sure that's the best approach. Maybe Dollar General, with it's massive expansion and rural approach, might be well served to place a single fast charger at the far corner of every one of their parking lots. "Dollar General operates 18,774 stores in the continental United States."

I've only ever owned CCS cars and while I don't do much road tripping I have experienced issues with EA chargers being out of service. Kinda annoying but I'm a bit of an enthusiast so for the most part I manage.

To be honest I think the only real solution to people using the 350Kw chargers with cars that can't take advantage of the faster speeds is to bill at a higher rate for the faster service.

I actually have used the same strategy to limit heating and go for 150 kW units instead of 350 kW units at EA with the 58 kW EV6. Since I run Car Scanner it was easy to confirm that this actually works.

Good, informative video in a totally nerdy (awesome) way. Correct, still some work to do on BEVs. In the meantime the PHEV is improving c.g. 2023 Prius Prime (my 2018 has averaged 95 mpg since 9/2018) and does not cost what a BEV does but gives you the best of both worlds (pretty much EV city driving, and 600+ on the long haul, what's not to like?). Wish the PHEV would come standard with a 100 mile traction battery but we are getting there. Thanks for the videos.

Welcome to Ann Arbor, Kyle! Hope you have a good time here. Can't wait to see videos with the Twizy!

It seems like it would be a big deal to lose regenerative braking in the mountains necessitating the use of the friction brakes and possibly overheating them. During the only road trip that I took with my Bolt I stopped at the EA charger in Naples, FL (you’ve been there) off of I-75 and all the working chargers were taken except a 350 KW, so I used it. When I came out of the Walmart a Taycan and an eTron driver who arrived after I did were pissed that I had taken the 350 KW. It took the Bolt 50 minutes to go from 20% to 80%. There was a Walmart+ delivery van behind you that looked like it might be an E-Transit. A quick tour would have been cool.

Couldn't help to smile when he says "Shame" and the Rivian front lights light up.

Admire early adopters but for every issue with electric cars in charge times, cold batteries, hot batteries, charging infrastructure reliability etc., fossil fuel cars fill up in five minutes, no reliability issues and car motor can be warm or cold and in that five minutes you can get 300 miles of range. To say electric cars have a ways to go to match that convenience is an understatement.

I think they need to simplify the terms they use to indicate charging modes. Hopefully they can do that better then USB standard naming conventions.

This is kind of like one of my space heaters. If I put it on high it puts out its max heat for maybe 5 minutes, then the thermal fuse kicks in and keeps it off for 30 minutes while it cools down. If I put it on Low I get an uninterrupted stream of warm air. 60 minutes of warm air vs two 5 minute periods of hot air.

Excellent video. Thanks. I saw my first Rivian R1T this morning. I'm sure it's a good truck but the first and main thing that struck me was how small it was. Like really small.

Road going fully electric cars got their start over a hundred years ago. This problem should have been solved decades ago. Gr8 vid as usual. 🚙 🇺🇸

I love your channel and appreciate all the information, but all the problems with software and charging for non-Tesla EVs are just making me sad - and more hesitant to take the plunge. 😕 Keep up the good work! Here's to hoping the manufacturers and charge point operators start getting their act together!

I hope Rivian view your report as a honest feedback instead of "bashing".

That will be a hard nut to crack, as Rivian will for sure error on the side of safety and keep the pack cooler. It would be a huge PR nightmare to have batteries catch on fire. Sounds like the thermal guys designing the pack missed a step or two. Wonder how long it will take for them to correct that in production and if they will offer to fix the older packs? EA, we call that Embarrassing Apparatus! 😁🤦‍♂

Hey, Kyle - did the new Rivian software release satisfactorily address this issue? Thanks for highlighting it and all your other great work.

THAT's HILARIOUS! I got blocked on a trip near Chicago by that SAME NIRO driver one night at midnight on the way back from Greenbay with my family!🤣

Thanks for the video. Thanks for buying early to work out all the issues with EV’s. Most people would not put up with this nonsense after paying $85K+ for a vehicle. Imagine if filling an ICE car had similar issue (gas pump going at 1 GPM flow rate).

My Tesla Model 3, charges at 250KW nearly every time I stop at a Supercharger. Even from Utah to WI, in August at 106F, my Tesla charged at 250K while averaging 240Wh/m. That means a 15-20 min charge every 200 to 300 miles while charging at 1,015 miles per hour. I have charge over 300 times over 4 years and 125K miles. I downloaded all of the charge stats in CSV form and tabulated and graphed it. My average charge time was under 20min and average cost was $24 (if I would have paid). I have been part of the electric car scene since 1997, with most of them being DIY conversions until 2008. If you buy anything other that a Tesla Model 3 or Model Y, you are going to suffer on trips. Tesla solved their thermal management and charging issues years ago. New Model S and X, are better that any non-Tesla brand for trips. But the Model 3 and Y are just next level when Traveling. On that Trip from WI to Utah and Back, the Model 3 did the trip within 10 minutes of a Prius with over 600 miles of ICE range and fast fill ups.

So, my only road trip-able EV I had before the Rivian was a 2016 Model S that topped out at I believe 90kw. So even with these issues I've been super happy with the Rivian's charging speed. 30 min charge is fine for me .🤷

Wow, thanks for the detailed explanation about all these issues! Looks like I might wait on an EV and get another ice truck for my next vehicle. I road trip a lot and tow a small camper.

You are really making me rethink my R1T order. :-(

Interesting, I have the same issue with my 2020 Soul EV (64KWH), it does not have a single skate board like the EGM-P platform, I use Soul EV Spy and you can see the double stack (top level) under the back seat is where the excessive heat is occurring, similarly I noticed on one old Leaf battery repair on a KZfaq channel (cannot recall which), the top pack of the double stack of the battery had the bulging of the pouchcells that needed replacement, the rest of the pack was to too shabby.

Spittin' facts! People are loving that you're "That Guy" - I'll never hate on someone stating what's going on in real use-case scenarios, because at this point, even with the EV adoption taking place, it's still such a fraction of the total market. We are still the guinea pigs when it comes to the infrastructure and vehicles themselves. And thus far, like you said, Tesla has been the only ones to really nail it down. I'm a Tesla owner and was almost a Rivian owner as well, but I decided to hold off and wait to see how things shake up in the next few years for them. Keep up the great work!

Does Rivian have a similar problem on roadtrips as BMW i4 which apparently counts the number of charging stops in a certain time and limits the input?

"Joliet Illlllliiinnooooiiiii" Came soooo close to improperly pronouncing the silent S at the end... kudos for not doing so. :D Also your tone and furrowed brow whilst saying that was completely merited :)

People just assume and take for granted the thermal management in EV's. It is really a complicated thing to precondition and to cool these batteries. I am shocked when I see people just assume that it all just works. Maybe if your in a Tesla it is of much less worry, but it really is a huge factor. Also the regen ability gets lost if the battery is too cold also. I am glad you keep trying to point this stuff out to people. That is too bad with the Rivian. It is early days for the Rivian vehicles and they have lots of learning to do. Hopefully they can get this addressed. Tesla or ICE FTW. 🙂

As a Tesla Model Y owner, my biggest issue at charging stations is if there’s a smoothie store nearby…

I swear that same Kia Niro was using the 350 kW at EA in Portage, MI. I'd love to see OEMs list the max DC kW on the charge port to help with this education issue.

Tesla is years ahead of the game! But I'm still so interested in the rivian!

I charged the R1T the other day from 30-70% and used the 150KW. It stayed at 150KW the entire time so that seemed to work well for me. That was at the Walmart in N. Charlotte. Also, the only car using the 350 was a new BMW iX. All the others were using 150

Another great video! Not only for the technical insight, but for outing the local ID.4 freebie people trying to grab those 350's.

Kyle, you're not "That Guy". You are doing everyone a great service to shine a spotlight on the charging situation. I 'd like to buy an EV to get away from gasoline, but I won't buy a Tesla. My current solution is a PHEV (yes, I know Kyle's opinion of PHEV's) but it means I burn little to no gas for weeks until I do go on a trip...then I'm happy to be on my way after a short stop for gas when necessary.

Kyle, why don’t you use an ODB two reader and car scanner app you would be able to understand what the temperatures are in the entire system for most cars. For instance, with my MGZSEV, I can see the battery temperature, charging system is temperatures, voltage, amps and much more. Even the speed of the motors, I’m fairly certain that with more sophisticated EVs you’d get even more info.

Greetings from Springs. ❤The channel!

Went to a Kia dealer the other day and drove a Niro Ev. I actually really loved it. Great car for commuting and weekend warriors. During the test drive, the salesperson informed me it charges at the same speeds as the EV6. I told him his information was incorrect and he insisted I was the one in the wrong. Not shocked the poor buyers (who aren’t nerds about this stuff) are confused.

good to know...🤓 thanx! 🚙

I heard of this idea for faster energy transfer to vehicles, instead of using CCS chargers, the energy would be transferred through a much more robust and efficient means instead. Rough estimates and simulations illustrated a rudimentary charging station of this variety can deliver many thousands of kw’s per hour when charging, all while using existing vehicle equipment. I believe the name of this system or it’s substrate was “diess cell” hopefully will bring many benefits in mobility to EV truck owners everywhere.

That is crazy about the inverters. Both my Chevy Bolt EV and my Ford Ranger Electrics share a coolant loop with the inverters. Essentially, the inverter should never get hotter than the battery in the Bolt EV and the inverter should never get hotter than the front radiator in the Ranger Electric.

Kyle, you really don't want the cells to get above 50ºC because that risks thermal runaway. LG says max cell temp of 45ºC while fast charging. It should start throttling at 45ºC and completely stop charging by 50ºC. I think Rivian just needs to start the cooling sooner rather than raising the temp threshold.

Glad I stayed with my Tesla MY; thought about selling and buying a rivian but love to road trip a lot and home charge.

@Kylecorner it seems the fix coming in the next OTA update. I hope it will resolve. Addressed a rare case where Direct Current Fast Charger (DCFC) was slowed due to insufficient battery cooling.

.........this is still why I would go Tesla for my first EV......I hate to say it. Rivian looks so badass...

Be interesting to see a FLIR view of the bottom and various components, hard to get all like you said due to the double stack but maybe some info that could let you test pointing a fan/cooler at a something to see if it chargers more consistently

I have an early preorder. What's your take on two things. First, wait for Max pack 2 motors or 4 motors large pack? We don't tow and don't do much off roading. Also R1S or R1T - would you avoid the R1S due to the driving/handling issues I have read about?

Does the Ford Lightning have any thermal management issues when road tripping you are aware of?

This channel is the biggest Tesla advertisement on KZfaq, thanks for your honesty and thoroughness!

They should put a charger by the starved rock exit maybe in the silver slipper parking lot. I never get high charge rate at that ea station when it’s cold out.

Hey Kyle, I feel your pain and frustration. I do have one answer for you and that is that everything will be perfect when all the stars and planets line up but they won't and if they did the perfection would still be fouled up by some new EV owner wanting to charge where they want to because bigger is better they will want to charge at the 350 sized unit, you know what if there was a 1000 sized unit they would pick it regardless of what they drive leaving you to charge at the 150 unit. The moral of the story is it will never be perfect, if close there will be an idiot spoiling it and to try and fix that is like doing the same but expecting different which is tge definition of insanity. But I do like your efforts and videos 👍

It's interesting that if some part of the battery gets hotter than they anticipated, and so they didn't put cooling near that location, but they DID put a temperature sensor there to know that it's getting hot?

It’d be awesome to get an OBD2 reader!

My wife and I own a 2022 Audi Etron Sportback 55. One of the technologies in in the battery pack is a temperature mitigating system. Audi underrated range. We live in Maine just North of Portland. Range varies from 230 miles to 250 miles. A fine example of German engineering, very happy after owning for one year.

'Bit' is a bit of an understatement for the current state of non Tesla EVs. Thanks to your channel, my pre-heated desire to go for EV is cooled down now. I don't want Tesla, so PHEV is the way forward, I guess 😅.

Kyle. I live near Minneapolis. We have only two DC fast chargers in or around the entire area including the suburbs. I have a garage, but it still is really cold nevertheless. I do not travel far enough to need fast charging but I would like to drive to work with my Rivian starting at a higher efficiency level rather than the 0.6 KW/hr. By the time I get to work about 20 miles away I never get to a high level. Would it make sense to go into the vehicle 30 minutes early and set a course for the one DCFC about 25 miles away and it would precondition to warm my battery up before I head to work and thus start at a much higher efficiency level?

As an EV owner in Palm Springs, the phrase ‘thermal management’ can be a trigger phrase. My Kia Soul EV went through 2 battery packs as the sun fried the battery pack. My current Model Y seems to be tolerating the heat well with no noticeable battery degradation. I’ve got an R1T on order so curious if there’s any good data on routine operation in excessive heat environments.

Huh, where I live, Greater Sudbury, Ontario, Canada is on the map. Usually my city needs a bit of a zoom in to see it... :-) @12:35 (right above Toronto) All the other Northern Cities are not shown???

This issue has to be great for the components and the battery too!😳😳

Thanks to all the EV beta testers out there. I'll keep buying gas until these manufacturers improve charging strategies and the charging infrastructure also improves.

Kyle, thanks for keeping it real. I sold my Tesla M3P in December before prices really cratered and I'll be picking up a replacement this summer. At this point, my wife has a Cayenne Hybrid and I'm highly likely going back to ICE. I can no longer support Tesla's farce of FSD, their price yo-yo'ing and their general low quality and atrocious customer service. I'd love to get a Taycan but they are pretty pricey and since Texas is a big state, I'd definitely need to fast charge to go between cities. If this is going to be my life at CCS DCFC's....no thanks.

If you have this issue when it's cold outside, how is it in the summer then?

Did this just start happening to you in terms of the over heating since you’ve had the truck for a bit now?

Can't complain in my Mach-e, hot or cold, almost always 150kw until 80% so far

I don’t really like electric cars but the headlights and the car look so cool

Drives me nuts that it does this even in cold weather

A thermal camera could provide some interesting data. Not only for the vehicle, but for the charger and cable too.

I wonder how much the subpar thermal management will reduce the lifespan of the pack.

Branden did a Rivian 150 vs 350 charging test on his channel. I won’t spoil the results

When do you sleep?? Keep up the great content

time to look more into graphene aluminum ion and sodium ion battery tech to deal better with cold temps

Thank you for “yelling” about this! Moving to EVs is critical for the health of our planet, and sloppy engineering (QA?) Will slow this down!

They def need the ability to designation your destination as a DC charger or not as a starting point

Raising the max temp will hurt battery life in the long run quite significantly. There are only limited sensors in the battery pack (far less than some other cars) and if you are seeing a reading of 45 degrees you can be fairly confident that there will be areas without a probe that are hotter or even much hotter. Always better to play it safe and charge a little slower. What they really need to do is just improve the cooling and temp sensor system on newer vehicles.

The Rivian heard you talking smack about it and woke up at 3:50. LOL