Big thanks to Ridge for sending me this wallet and supporting the channel! Here’s the site if you want to check them out! > ridge.com/WHITESEA

I still use the 80/20 rule. 80% of my listeners can't tell and 20% don't care.

Spotify hi-fi is launching this year, would be great with a follow up on that.

Something else to consider, is that Spotify users can also just turn off the “Loudness Normalization” option. Fully disable it. I tested a few hip hop tracks (popular releases and some underground stuff). With LN on, they were the expected -14 LUFS and their True Peaks were down around -2.5 to -3 because of the loudness penalty. However with LN disabled, these same tracks had integrated LUFT around -9 and True Peaks at 0.3 to 0.5. HUGE differences in loudness. (You have to reload the song that’s cued for the disabled setting to take effect). My concern here would be, for percentage of listeners who disabled the LN setting in Spotify, your track may sound very quiet coming off a list of tracts all at -9 LUFTS. Your song is mastered at -14 (or -13) so you will incur a minimal penalty when LN is enabled. But if an end user turns off the penalty machine... well now you’ve self inflicted your own penalty to be the quietest track they hear all day. If LN is disabled, they are not adjusting volumes. It is what it is at that point. Commercial releases are all up at -9 LUFT (likely louder for really heavy stuff). They all still sound good when the LN turns them down. I think it might be a good ideal to disable LN... take a bunch of readings from artist you respect to reference, in a similar genre, average those readings and submit your masters at the levels that seem to be working for them. Accepting that your volume WILL be turned down for the majority of listeners with LN enabled. At the same time protecting you loudness levels from those who turn it off. If it sounds good at -9 LUFT it should sound just as good to the end listener if they’ve cranked the volume, or turned it down halfway on their headphones. Essentially, that is all the loudness penalty is doing.

Converting FLAC to WAV is *not* a destructive process! You can do that a million times (FLAC -> WAV -> FLAC -> ...) and still get the original file in the end. So that concern is pretty baseless. The same goes for Apple Lossless btw. And yes, FLAC also supports higher bitrates than 16bit, and also higher frequenzy settings than 44100.

Can't wait for KZfaq investigation as well. Thanks for this one. Good to know that it is better delivering at 41k.

I honestly think that, instead of worrying about how loud a track is, you worry about how dynamic the track is. Or instead, you are at least aware of what the LU range is. If a track is at -14 LUFs, and has a high loudness range, you're good! Same with tracks that are -7, -6, -5 LUFs, etc. Distortion or no distortion, if it sounds great, it sounds great!

Spotify needs to let us upload the same song and several lufs and see what sounds best after their algos.

When you listen to Spotify with the loudness normalization turned off, you'll find, that not a single professional track is mastered at -14 LUFS. I made the mistake once to master a track at -14. Now, when i listen to it (loundess normalization turned off) it sounds crappy next to all the other tracks, just because of the loudness difference. So in my experience right now it is not advisable to stick to those spotify mastering guidelines. Maybe this will change in the future? What are you're own experiences?

I would love the video on KZfaq's codex 🙌 It would be really really helpful.

I have normalization turned off in Spotify. 100% of the music I listen being new or old is mastered loud. As long as normalization can be turned off, I wouldn't master to -14 lufs.

Great video! And I totally sympathise with the fact that we always have to disclaim that we are not sponsored if we get enthusiastic about something on KZfaq. It IS tiring and funnily enough, most people that are into gear and music production tend to be enthusiastic about what they do :)

It helps to have someone walk you through it. Very informative. Good video topic!

Put your music on Spotify- earn no money. Help make Spotify rich.

FLAC is lossless, so the resulting audio is literally the same, bit by bit, as the WAV file. It's like ZIPping a file: no losses.

I was mixing my metal -10LUFS.And i have check it up.And my mixes was destroyed.I made them -14LUFS and sound is perfect.A good tip this time mate.Thank you.

Thank you for this. I recently learnt that -14 LUFS doesn't necessarily mean quieter. An example of this is Kenny Mason's Angelic Hoodrat. It has a great perceived loudness and lower LUFS than most loud songs. Glen Schick mastered. It sounds great to me.

I find it interesting that I watch this channel for, among other things, learning different mixing techniques and the video is interrupted my an ad that states "if you're watching this video to learn how to mix, it won't help". I wonder how many content providers are having ads contradict their content.

Aaaah, very interesting! All your videos about mastering are a great help especially these days as I'm mastering an ambitious album I have mixed and I want to take care of it.

Thanks for this White Sea! Appreciate it a lot

YES! This is the video I needed and wanted

Aileé Zaga has a good video on the KZfaq loudness normalization, and Marques Brownlee has one on the KZfaq compression (he does talk about the audio as well as video). But of course, I would be interested in your thoughts as well! This video was very helpful, and honestly much more interesting than I expected!

Since I don't do EDM or any heavy beat music, I use Amazon's spec which is -13 with -2 TP. That way the file works pretty much anywhere.

Also audio mastered for audio is also around -14LUFS! The most old fashioned analog format (vinyl) and most modern digital format (audio streaming), both killed loudness introduced by CD format! Now, isnt that something....

Spotify changed to LUFS in November/December 2020. And they have changed the normalisation settings so that Quiet and Normal level settings never apply a limiter. They will only raise the volume as far as the max TP value allows.

I realize that as I’m writing this (Dec 2022) this episode is now a year old, but I still find it to be very informative, and very pertinent. Thanks for taking the time to clarify, and to cut through the confusion, Vytse. While I was already aware of Spotify’s requirement of -1dB true peak for -14 LUFS, I did NOT know about their requirement for a true peak of -2db for LUFS that are hotter than -14db. And, I absolutely agree with you about mastering to the -14db LUFS “target” that Spotify prefers… Like yourself, I would much rather deliver audio that was a bit hotter than -14db LUFS, and have them “penalize” me by turning the volume down…as opposed to delivering something shy of -14db, and leaving it to Spotify to make the volume louder, as increasing the volume would likely involve the use of additional limiting, and THAT has the potential (probability) of introducing distortion. And, considering the massive amount of content that Spotify receives (even in one day), it’s safe to assume that the limiting would be an automated process, (a “bot”) and not monitored and controlled by an actual mastering engineer, (or anyone human) who would understand the process, and know to take precautions to avoid it (along with any other possible wizzly artifacts that are inherent in lossy formats) which could audibly alter the fidelity of the original master. Anyhooo… Great video. 😊

This is still baffling to me. For starters, I just ordered and received a CD from a very universally heralded alternative rock band who’s album was released this previous summer of 2020. I just put the tracks up in SoundForge and they are loud - generally -8.7 dB lufs all the way up to -6.7db lufs, depending on the song. I fell in love with this album listening to it on Spotify Premium but with volume normalization turned off. I always keep normalization/volume match turned off. This is not the only ‘new’ album like this. Almost every time I buy a new album (in recent years) which, in terms of genre are within the alt/indie arena of artists, the albums contain songs which sit between -10 and -7. It is my understanding that until the FCC ever actually passes legislation to impose forced volume normalization to be permanently engaged on all streaming apps, mastering for loudness normalization is simply NOT generally being honored; only the slightest fraction of artists or mastering engineers are presenting masters at -14 dB lufs - of course, I suppose, they will be considered sages when and if the legislation ever kicks in but it has been sitting idle for over 5 years now. Furthermore, maybe my ears are just ‘tuned for loud’ after all this time but I actually dig the way my mixes ‘feel’ when I get them glued in with bus compression, eq, saturation and limiters. When I apply these tools to my tastes, my mixes tend to naturally so sit around -10 to -9 lufs. Wth? 🤷🏻‍♂️

Thanks for walking us through, didn't think there is so much behind that Spotfiy adjustments.

Your video came out right when I had that issue in my head. Thanks for explanation and for the provided information!

Yes please on the You Tube Video idea!

It did help me thanks so much ! More videos about this topic would be much appreciated!

Thanks man.... it really helps , honestly.

This is great information, I was working on a album and wasnt too concerned with matching loudness as I thought streaming would handle it but it appears to not be so!

This is new item to add to the mix chacking list

Thanks for that, from all musicians!💙💙💙

Im totally wanting to see this kind of video about the youtube audio!!!! im mainly using youtube as my music listening service and i would really like to know all about the weird stuff that their algorhythm is doing with the sound of the files that we upload to this site!!

I have being mastering at -2 true peak for a while now. I couldn't remember why.😂 Thanks for reminding me of the articles on spotify website.🤟

Again, you don't need to play with the gain fader in Pro-L 2 to try to get to a certain LUFS number, just use MLoudnessAnalyzer and it does it automatically. There's a lot of plugins that adjust the volume of your track automatically to reach a certain point in the LUFS meter, even Waves has one, but the one made by Melda is the best in my opinion; simple, straight to the point and works great.

pay attention that true-peak is not the peak. But the peak forming through peaks, during D/A conversion. There are plugins (also free) that are showing these, and limiters that are taking under control True Peaks, like the Pro-L2 you are using

It's a great video and explanation. I've been working very hard to get my tracks to the correct loudness recently and this certainly helps. It's an interesting note on being slightly above the recommendations to avoid positive gain and the additional limiter. I try to avoid limiting as much as possible.

Interessante informatie. Dank voor de video!

This was great! Thank you! A KZfaq one would also be amazing. KZfaq is very odd and has something else going in indeed.

This is very interesting 🤨 thank you for this info! 🙌🏾 I agree, transcoding is the problematic part and nobody can avoid that. Many people commenting here about how loudness standards can be avoided/ignored but transcoding hot files can/will provide distortion. It’s digital audio. So going loud as possible in your submission seems foolish unless you want bit distortion. And bit distortion always seems to garble the clarity and diminish the stereo field. Seems to me (mathematically) a min of -11 LUFS while having 2db of headroom in the submission is ideal. Which would make the mastering close to a min or 9 RMS/LUFS before the peak headroom. I imagine if you’re doing a “single”, you could simply apply the transcoding yourself to simulate the affect and tailor the headroom for your submissions.

Very nice content. Thank you for going through this and sharing these tips.

13:16 is why I keep the normalization setting off, it ruins songs, especially older music that wasn't sausaged. It helps to also compare your favorite track(s) with the setting off and on. Most of the tracks on the Global Charts playlist hit around 6-9 LUFS without normalization.

FYI, they have since updated their system to a) use integrated LUFS and b) only apply the limiter when using the "Loud" normalization setting, which is not the default setting (hooray!). Much better now.

Very insightful video, kudos!

I've didn't know about the -2dB rule! Thank you!

Thanks for the summary !

I LUFS this

What will happen is the day Spotify and/or other platforms decide to change the LUFS "reference" to let say -12 or -10 then all those who have mastered at -14 will loose that competitive sound versus the louder ones. Also, when artists submit music to curators, their music is judged by people listening the WAV file without any normalization and these people listen to one WAV file after another without turning constantly their volume knob. Quiet masters are at risk of not being selected. I have made the test myself: the same song mastered at -14 LUFS and then at -9 LUFS. The -14 LUFS version of the song was rejected from all playlists and was qualified as "unfinished". The -9 LUFS version sent to the same curators was accepted in 5 playlists and 3 radio stations. This was the exact same sound. Just the gain what different. The loudness war has never ended and will never do. Somehow, despite of the normalization, loudness remains important, but with some balance with dynamics. This interesting experience that I describe here changed my perspective about mastering as many artists rely on the number of playlists selections of their music to judge the work of their engineers.

Thanks man! Super Helpful!

very useful info man, thanks alot for the insights

that was the best video I saw from you! Super informative. Thanks..

People/engineers need to chill about this whole "mastering for streaming" and "-14LUFS". Do a good sounding and, yeah, loud master and you are good to go. Just take a listen to all the commercial releases, nobody masters at -14Lufs, but rather -11 to -6.

That's gonna put you in a very tight 'SPOT', financially as well !!!

thanks!

Great tips and tricks, thank you

So basically cutting everything over 21kHz and mastering at -2,1 dBFS TP and around -10,9 iLUFS will end up with the file that doesn't get changed at all (not considering transcoding loss) on Spotify?

I know this is over a year or so old but great video thanks! No ridge wallet anymore? 🤣

dithering is something you have to deliver. They cannot add anything. They don't cut down bit depth so you have not to worry too much about

Omg tree point tree woooh!!!

thanx a lot

Thank you so much!

Yes please make a video regarding KZfaq also... All the best!

There´s been a wonderful Google Talk from Andrew Scheps about that. Audio Quality in Streaming Media. But almost 10 years old so the algos won´t work like that now I think. But still and for other reasons interesting. Concerning the whole topic.

I personally always bring my masters loud (av. - 9 LUF), 48/24, - 1.3 dB TP for all platforms. As you say, I prefer my music turned down than compressed more; if someday streaming services decide to turn up their volume, I don't have to be worried since I'm already loud, therefore the only issue I have left is true peak and dynamic range 🤷‍♂️.

None of this is relevant if you do not “Enable Audio Normalization” There will still be loss from Spotify conversion but it does not seem logical to master your level for an option that can be disabled. Everyone that is listening without audio normalization will hear the actual mastered volume adding up to a couple db due to the conversion process which is why you should leave some true peak headroom in your .wav master to avoid clipping after conversion to lossy codecs. In the latest versions of Ozone you can use Codec preview to view your level changes and even solo the artifacts or “loss” in AAC format at different bit rates. So if you upload a -14 LUFS master it will sound really quiet and weak compared to a -8 LUFS rock mix (or -3 LUFS EDM mix 😬) when Audio Normalization is off and that is never ok. It’s better to take the penalty and have it turned down for those who prefer to enable audio normalization and never have the possibility of anyone hearing a quiet version of your track. The loudness war is not over yet. Trust me I can’t wait for it to be. 🤘🏼 P.S.- Somebody should do a video about this 😉

You should do a snake oil on lurssen mastering plugin 👋👋😍

But woudn‘t it be better to master to like 11 Lufs (if possible for the song of course), so that the song doesn‘t get crushed by spotify on the „loud“ setting?

I read a lot of comments of people that say that -14 is not that good.. but if you make your songs at -6lufs what about the db? are you using -1db or -2db?

Thanks. The good thing in all this is this is that the loudness war isn't killing out dynamics like it was. Was getting stupid.

When you use this website (loudnesspenalty): Should I go for minus values or plus values? I mean should my song be penalised by plattforms?

Currently learning how to ddp now in reaper i hate that my ep has breaks in it

Great video!🙏

meters going into the red isn't a problem with converted files, it's just something that happens within software reading that converted sound, as long as your master isn't in the red and distorted then the converted file sound should be fine. also, this -14 lufs is nonsense! it's just a guideline, tracks at -12 or -13 lufs can be louder than -14, it all depends on the mix/instruments within. produce with your ears, not a graph!!

Its definitely interesting to see and hear all this explained but at the end of the day i think different sounds at the consumers are much more due to different speakers and room acoustics than the last 2 dB processing during the streaming, especiallly that i hope the poeple figured out that algorithms on spotify are pros in what they are doing. and you dont have the original files directly from the mastering studio to compare something against

Music Is LUFS Forever

Just produced a Drum & Bass track. -6/8 dB RMS. Not gonna change that for Spotify! 😂

What about loudness levels when mastering for CD ?

I do make my Tracks around -6 to -8 Lufs becourse i have taken samples of my favorite CDs of my genre and looked: How loud are they masterd? So yes -6 is loud but i found many tracks on Soundcloud that are even Louder than the -8Lufs. And to me it works the best in that Loudness range. Becourse i and othes can compare the Musik without having a to big drop in Loudness. In a Genre that is most common mixed by DJs (psytrance) and is Played LOUD mostly on PA Systems - it is not unimportant to have equal Loudness! It is often not understood what happen and often missunderstod by non DJs that have no practise playing Musik so loud in front of the Audience. Let me explain: DJs have not the same Volume Gain resource on their Mixers to make quieter Tracks loud. This will result in a problem most known in Missunderstanding saying - THAT TRACK is Cheap. Or Not as good as comon Standard of other artists in that Genre (psytrance). So the Dj cannot give more Loudness to the track but he can make it less loud in comparison. So a Mix that is loud and sounds great even if it is quieter is BETTER for Djs to mix. And if some one has to compare to names like Infected Mushrooms, Neelix, Astrix and so on ans he is MUCH less loud - the dj takes a other Track even if he like the track that is more quiet. And that does some influence on those portals too. If a perhaps Astrix would Stream to what ever - he would use the Well masterd Track in his common Loudness. Becourse no one care about if the streaming service makes the track 3lufs quieter becourse it will still Sound good in comparison to others. If a mix is less loud and has perhaps a greater Dynamic becourse of the less loud mastering - the mix will smash into Distortion or other problems. The biggest misstake is to Limit the Track to 0,0 without place for Intersampled overs that will happen to accour during internal processing. So it can be better to Master to -0,3 or -0,5 or in Spotify like he said to -2db to avoid Distortion or Clipping fragments. But thats only what i have experience..

What happens if I upload music in 432Hz to Spotify, will they change it to 440Hz?

guys I need help. I'm really tired to print automations with the mouse and I'm looking for a fader controller. I'm in a small room and I don't have a lot of space. I've seen scheps uses the fader port. but I would like to use it also as controller for volume/esperssion/vibrato with the sample libraries. I'm on a MacBook pro i5 with 16gb , I use logic pro. please help

Yeah we talked about the -14 LUF , I said it depends on the type of music you're making. Great video! Are you familiar with the Youlean Loudness Meter?

Hi man. Maybe a silly question, and maybe I missed it in a previous video, but what mic you are speaking in to? It sounds pretty good. So my curious mind wants to ask you this question ;)

Nice one thank you 🙏 i use also for all the tracks the lufs free website too

Don't have a lufs meter so your saying keep my meter -1 or -2 basically avoid limiting and keep the sound old school. ?

And boom you have a Techno track and you won't hit the limiter until you are at -9 LUFS :-D Fun fact you can turn it off that Spotify normalizes the Loudness. so you can hear the " raw " track :-)

Just a side note of no importance, I don’t listen to Spotify, or any other streaming service. I rather buy my music and add it to my collection. 😎

When using my phone to play music in my car with Spotify Normalized volume OFF I get a lot of (what I think it is at least) clipping sounds , is this correct?😅

The fact they master albums based on the ENTIRE albums integrated loudness makes me wonder if you should worry about how your album comes out in terms of LUFS before anything else. The most important people who listen to your music are the people who put your whole album on for a listen start to finish.

Can’t wait for like Spotify hifi

Please, everybody, don't believe these lunatics telling you to master to a specific loudness. Music is art... master it so it sounds best. Spotify and which ever other platform will attenuate for streaming, so let them just do that. Make a record you will be proud to show your grandchildren! Edit: also screw Apple for needing to be special and louder. All that means is it will be more distorted, I have a volume nob thanks apple.

Do you put 2 limiter on master bus? (To not loose dynamics)

and for youtube?

i know for a fact cdbaby only lets you send 16wav bit vs 24 odd

One of the things that will happen when uploading stereo audio to KZfaq is radical hi-cut at 15.8kHz, not passing any audio above that. Recommended watch: Dave Rat's videos on the subject: kzfaq.info/get/bejne/e9xmh6xzls2yhoE.html

Just master as usual, keeping Genre specific Dynamic Range in mind (8db PSR for example) and afterwards turn down your track to -14LUFS before uploading to spotify should do the trick, doesn't it?

+ for KZfaq audio ✌🏽

So making a different master for spotify isn’t advisable, but... What if you follow the spotify rules (-2dB TP) and add +2dB (normalize) to the master send to beatport? Especially for dance productions? Would that make sense?