ITS NOT FRIDAY YET SHUSH

@@ImortalZeus13 this is sending me

Those damn Innsmouthers!

feel like it’s also important to give a shout out to the indie ones as well. Seeing people like Jacksepticeye playing There Is No Game Wrong Dimension legit made me super happy for reasons outside of a big guy playing a game I like

hey that works

@@BMaskIf that's not what the devs intended, it ought to be. Hey while I've got your attention, thought I'd throw in my two cents: I agree you presented a good case for why LeFlay could have worked well in the story. Seemed you were implying her as one of the new Pirate Leaders? Wanted to say, I think I get where the creatives were coming from; that this new generation has no connection to Guybrush, no familiarity, and helps solidify that tone that the world is moving on without him. You'd sacrifice some of that with old faces - though, yeah, we could have used a little more time to get to know these new guys...

Oh absolutely, like I said in the video I'm equally conflicted by whether or not it's better or worse than what they decided on as it stands. I guess ultimately as long as we connect her to the girl in the game's intro the overall intention still works!

@@BMaskRoger roger. Thanks again for the video! Can't wait for the next one!

Someone pointed out to me a few years back the 'freak' enclosure in big whoop. You might be more right than you know.

after watching the video i now understand.

We weren't hung up on not learning what the secret was. We were hung up on the game setting up a confrontation and last puzzle, only to give us an ending where they couldn't even decide on what it is, because the writer's couldn't bring themselves to make a final call. And that sucks. If it had ACTUALLY been an unambiguous "Yes, it really was a pirate theme park this whole time" ending, then I would have had more respect for it. I personally don't like that idea, as did most of the creators, but at least it would have been something, instead of nothing. I don't need a Monkey Island game to write my own fan fiction on whether Monkey Island is real or not and what its secret is.

Monkey Island 4 or 5 was unplayable and the whole game ground to halt with the coconut game.

It reminds me a lot of (SPOILER) Orion and The Dark. What starts as a goofy story about learning not to be scared of the dark turns into a father bonding with his daughter through stories, helping her overcome her own fears and creating something deeper and more meaningful together that is carried through to future generations.

Great comment. That last paragraph really feels like the key, storytelling is and always has been in our own hands, and no game has epitomized that more from the very first sequel than Monkey Island

Great take. While reading it, I realized I have fewer problems with the "it's a kid's fantasy" storyline than I thought I had. Because, when I was a kid, I built these Lego cities with loads of characters. And every friend had their own character and over the months we'd have great adventures. Those were all made up and the characters weren't real. But that doesn't matter. That meant something to us and to me. I still remember some of them. It was just playing on the one hand, but on the other hand it was great and meaningful. The same can be said for MI2. While the "it isn't real" narrative may be pityful for all those pirates, it's kind of heartwarming to think about this kid that had unstrained, almost naive, but great meaningful fun.

​@@zenithquasar9623 I felt the other way around. I won't make a long essay to explain myself since I feel B-Mask did it amazingly not only in this video. So I will try to digest the strong points of what I feelt was a warming message to us loaded with affection and sincerity: 1- The game started as a fun idea that was really just trying (and achieved) to emulate adventure. 2- Success meant that the expectations grew bigger and bigger and people started fan theorizing and creating their own tall tales (a good storyteller knows this is an intended effect showing you got the attention you searched). 3- All is embraced, all is allowed, there is not an end to Gaybrush's adventures, but the curse long overdue chaining him to become a souless mockery of his starting point is lifted. He can now be free from its origin and pursue other treasures. After all. That was his original goal: to be a pirate and live the adventure. All this is also tangled with the realization of how time passed and its effect on every person, be them players or the creators.

B Mask has some of the most rewatchable content on youtube

@@maxcasteel2141 yeah, definitely. And so super comfy too.

I feel this is very elegantly put- and certainly meaningful to what I think the game does best. Thank you for sharing.

some people just don't like being played tricks on. Ron Gilbert was quoted stating that Monkey Island being a theme park was NOT its secret. This was a reason for the big buildup to a 'proper' MI3 by Ron, after all (not knocking Curse, it was a great game).

Here's the tough thing to hear- we can't change that it is what it is, and what it came from. Sometimes we have to be confronted with the truth- but the game asks, even knowing that, can you still accept the story? Can you still enjoy the journey you went on and the games you loved regardless of the secret finally being revealed? They want you to have the fantasy- they just want it to be *your* fantasy, rather than the one they initially thought of. It's going to be hard to swallow, but it's all the more worthwhile for doing so.

And that's why there is the ending where you say screw it to the meta stuff and embrace the fantasy.

I think using the “accept the truth” narrative to justify the ending is absurd. We all know this is not real life but an adventure game. The reason why entertainment exists is because people can take a break from reality and enjoys the fantasy, having something to distract us or give us hope and warmth to hold on to when we return back to the reality and live our life. To think that most of the target audiences grew up playing these games, who may had come back to play RtMI JUST to feel the nostalgia and feel like they’re kids again, for them to be hit with this ending is just cruel. If I wanted a reminder that my childhood and childlike fantasy was behind me, I would’ve just stayed in real life. If I were in the mood to have deep existential, even nihilistic reflections, I would’ve chosen to consume a different kind of media. This is an adventure game. P.S. I’m not saying that adventure games cannot have existential themes. I have played this type of game and enjoyed a wide range of postmodern literature. It is the way it was executed. We only found out about this, almost genre-changing subversion, right before the game ends, while being misled into believing it was going somewhere else.

Fancy seeing you here

So did I!

@@BMask Whilst I wasn't a fan of the game as a whole (not just the ending) I appreciated that it tried to do something different but I felt like it was so heavy handed with the meta commentary that it just took me out of it

Seeing some of the comments you put in the video is a shame. I think there's such a good conversation to be had about this game but it always turns into an argument. Kudos on the vid I enjoyed it

Thanks Fez! The main reason was because I felt the Cave kinda fumbled it's message by giving a binary good or bad ending, neither of which really felt like they matched with the actions of the actual stages which were also fairly predictable in their narratives. I love the idea of the game and some of the stuff it was doing otherwise, but I think thimbleweed, 2 and return better built to the point I wanted to make, and decided to make them the focus of the final section.

I owe him a lot for putting my words right next to Ron Gilbert. Absolutely gobsmacking moment.

And I’m in the video, again. Wow. So grateful. ❤ Thanks for your hard work. Your analysis are always top-notch.

@@joemonsters Thank you! Pleasure to have included you in the screenshots.

It's all good, still think he's got his moments

I'm so glad you liked it! I felt there were a lot of people out there who felt this way but weirdly didn't have a video of their own vocalising those thoughts. Really wanted to correct that, and excellent comments like this are still giving me more to think about, even after having made my own decisions on what I felt it was saying.

The series retconned it once, and Ron Gilbert also basically lied about it as well, but I think after all this time people should have been able to see through him on that point. I guess I've seen a lot of fans of various media cling obliviously to the creator's words and ignore the textual evidence in front of them and it's always a trap, though they don't always turn on the creator, sometimes the fans just keep finding new interpretations that keep letting the creator be right.

People keep saying there was no conclusion to the character arcs or that there were dangling threads- but the arc for everyone is the discovery of the secret. Everyone who chases it becomes inanimate but Guybrush gains control of his narrative. Don't know what bizarre intrigues people have told themselves were set up outside that because the entire thing pays it off perfectly, and I left incredibly damn satisfied.

Yeah, was also satisfied with the story and thematic wrapup. I didn't need another LeChuck boss fight, but I admit I would've loved another surrealist crescendo of anachronistic clues as we breach the reality chrysalis ala MI2. But the tonal smash cut as you enter the Melee Island alley is also very effective and probably a better fit for this story.

I feel like they could have done nothing else because expectations rose so high over the years.

Second Wind, right? I'm glad, was rough the way that all went down.

Yep!

Thanks, I think part of that was that I realised it would be impossible to keep up a debate I knew I could never divulge the full thoughts on that I'd plan to get to in a video, with plans to do that as soon as possible. But then the days turned into weeks, weeks into months etc etc... however that debate went down, I hope this serves my feelings better.

@@BMask No hard feelings, you were def getting a lot of tweets on it at the time. Like I said the games still not for me but appreciate it more now thanks to this Great vid, looking forward to the next comic one!

The lechuck form one actually stumped me for a while. I forgot about the one that was just a piece of dialogue!

Thanks, and appreciate the correction- you'd think of everything else I checked I could've checked this too!

I don't have any horse in the race for Homestuck, or Monkey Island. I'm not really familiar with them(besides watching B-Mask's videos), and don't know how I would feel about the different games and reveals, so don't take this as a commentary about either. But in a general sense: Some people just can't stand in-your face meta elements. The context matters, obviously. Personally I never minded a bit of fun with Fission Mailed, tutorial prompts talking about buttons or game mechanics, or Psycho Mantis reading your memory card in the Metal Gear Solid series. But on the other hand, I had zero patience for the in-game excuses in MGS2 for repeating elements, and in my opinion, doing them way worse than in MGS1. The actual theme of the game, the message, is quite positive. But what I _wanted_ was an exciting and funny spy story full of engaging characters which used the familiar framework I liked but took it to somewhere new. What I didn't want was some meta, knowing continuation that focused a lot on the player and didn't provide a meaningful change to the setting or resolve its plotline. That feeling might be familiar to some Monkey Island or Homestuck fans. Kojima made Metal Gear Solid 3 afterwards, so there's no hard feelings from me, that's exactly the game I wanted. But my point is, for some players it doesn't matter at all what sort of point you're making by going meta, 'cause you already lost them by going in that direction to start with. What I wanted wasn't for the story of MGS2 for example to provide a more flattering portrait of the player. What I wanted was for the story to in no way acknowledge that I, or some larger "fandom" I guess I'm a part of, even exist to start with. It's not something I think is interesting or fun as anything more than a little joke. Even if what the message is saying is entirely validating, like, "whatever you think is best is what's right", it's frustrating to people with this mindset, 'cause what I think is best is _not_ doing this meta stuff. To be clear, this doesn't mean I inherently reject the message being presented(it depends, obviously), or that I don't get them. I just think a meta way of presenting those ideas is annoying. I already know that whatever piece of fiction is a piece of fiction. So what? To me, pointing out the artificiality or stepping outside the story in that way to tell me something usually feels tedious, especially when it's something super obvious you're laying out. I don't think it's too hard to grapple with, I think it's boring, and any additional points the dev wants to make isn't coming across in a favorable light. I can only speak for myself, and I've never sent any hate to Kojima or anything, but I wouldn't be surprised if other people dislike this sort of stuff for similar reasons. The fact that it's meta at all is way more damning than anything being said.

@@Kriss_ch. I will say I think MGS2 is kind of a masterpiece. If we always gave in to what players wanted I don't think we'd have half of the most interesting games out there- or that I would ask questions of myself and where I stand as a human being outside of the game itself, which is an inherently powerful thing to achieve. People who complain ironically have more than their share of what they prefer to fall back on- so I will always argue the case for the opposite with those who feel the opposite given the chance.

@@BMaskThat's fair. Even if I get frustrated sometimes and can't quite change my own perspective on those things, I can at least appreciate that for other people they get meaning like that out of it. And I think the way you ask yourself those questions and the meaning you take from it, is at least part of what keeps me coming back to watch your videos. If I was making an MGS2 video, it'd just be a takedown of parts that annoyed me. But if it was you, you would really take those ideas they presented and run with them to the conclusion you came to, and it would be much more interesting as a result. In that roundabout way, I'm also getting enjoyment out of MGS2 through the medium of others. To bring it back to this video, Yahtzee's review is fun and all(and I agree he's got plenty of good points), but I definitely get the sense you're the one seeing the bigger picture, and this video will stick with me a lot longer than his did.

I know, and I'm the same way myself, but you'd figure the commenters invested in picking a fight were looking at the screen at some point.