20:20 “Sonic’s long forgotten ability to curl into a ball” hit me like a ton of bricks

I think the point of the 2D Sonic games' free-flowing nature is fairly overstated here - as every 2D game usually has half or more of their levels dedicated to a lot of stop-and-go, or boxed-in level design that doesn't really facilitate building and preserving a smooth flow. So I don't think it's really fair to put some 3D games on blast for doing the same thing of dedicating sections to different aspects of the gameplay (to a point). When it comes to the Adventure games, I don't think their divergences from the 2D design were ill-concieved or something born out of negligence, let alone bad for the games. The 2D Sonic games were fantastic for their creative uses of pinball physics and building/preserving momentum. They're also significantly easier to control at high speeds, naturally. So in a fast-paced 3D game, the player needs mechanics that allow them to orient themselves around their environment. 'Halting' your forward movement, and giving you hang-time turns hitting objects like enemies into a tool the player can use to 'anchor' themselves to more treacherous surroundings before proceeding. Likewise, the dash-panels before 90 degree slopes and springs thrust you high into the air, giving you a wide overview of the immediate incoming area. Even the light-speed dash can be used to both correct your movement trajectory, but also build and maintain speed. SA1/2 are rooted in letting the player bask in the sheer amount of control they have in their movement, which not only addresses the inherent challenges that come with 3D, but uses them to its advantage. I think this gameplay change - prioritizing predictable and simple avenues of controlling your character - creates better gameplay in a 3D context (particularly at the time), than adapting ALL of the 2D mechanics faithfully would have. As for the loops, while I would love to see a crack at making truly interactive loops work in 3D, I can't fault them for going with what they did - in automating them and taking control of the camera to let you see the action. I have a very hard time imagining them to fundamentally feel good, to prevent them from being extremely disorienting and nauseating. And I suspect the entire purpose of loops conveying and rewarding the games' physics systems, and giving off a spectacle, would be completely buried by locking the camera close behind the player by necessity for smooth control. The streamlined/linear levels are largely a product of 3D spaces being harder and more time consuming to build. But it must be said that this is another restriction they used to their advantage, resulting in the birth of the series' now-staple ranking system. The scoring system had always been almost completely superfluous to the gameplay of the 2D games - and in my opinion actually detracted in how harsh they were. However SA2 had finally iterated and refined the entire scoring system to be much more fair, directly feed into the gameplay, give you an actual rank at the end, and instill a rewarding feeling for mastery, turning its streamlined levels focusing on action and speed above all else, into its own strength. The focus on more grounded environments is likely a result of their experimentation with the classic art style in 3D, as with beta Windy Valley. In 2D, geometric shapes and bright, highly saturated colors can comprise a significantly more appealing aesthetic than it can in 3D, which by its nature is much closer to real life. As such, the stark shapes and saturated colors end up looking much more garish the closer to real life you get. Going from Beta to Final Windy Valley, you can see how the more nuanced, contrasting colors with use of recognizably grounded texture detail can better aid depth perception in a detailed 3D space. All this goes to say, the Adventure games' design is faithful in a lot of ways, but for many parts which don't adapt the 2D mechanics accurately, there's likely a reason for it born out of a ton of logistical factors that can't be so easily brute-forced for the sake of being faithful. What works best for a game in 2D doesn't always work the same for 3D. That said, I'd still love to see a future Adventure-style game that can adapt many more of the 2D games' nuances, cuz there definitely is a lot of potential there.

Someone on Twitter said "Sonic is the 'Potential Man' of gaming" and I think that's the best way to sum up this franchise.

I don’t think Sonic’s gameplay being different to his classic counterpart is inherently a bad thing, but I do agree that if changes are made then they should be just as good if not better than the original gameplay style. Can’t really call it an evolution if it’s worse than the original

I was so worried this was going to be ANOTHER "3D Sonic is so stale and repetitive they do the same thing every time" while slamming all the times the series TRIES something different IE: "this game sucks because it's different"; while at the same time criticizing the series for never changing. When I saw you pull out clips of Lost World, Black Knight, Shadow, etc... I was so ready to click away. I'm glad I stuck around to actually see a rare, genuine, and level-headed, criticism of 3D Sonic, ALL 3D Sonic--not just the "bad" 3D Sonics. The slow bosses, homing attack absolutely demolishing your speed, automating as much as possible, and mechanics that are entirely antithetical to everything Sonic was--all things that very much apply to even the "good" 3D Sonic games. As an added bonus you're the only other person that realizes Lost World did the spindash just like frontiers, several years BEFORE frontiers; AND THAT SHADOW'S HOMING ATTACK IS BAD ON PURPOSE TO INCENTIVISE WEAPONS. I cannot overstate how much I appreciate someone that at least TRIES to judge the games equally instead of the typical "forces bad, so all mechanics from forces are also bad." Thank you for the video.

I like the semi-realistic graphics, I like the contrast between realistic-looking cities and non-sensical layouts. Like how Radical Highway has unrealistic loops and twists and holes in the road, but has realistic road textures. Also, I think the aesthetic of Shadow The Hedgehog's game is really nice.

Thanks for the shoutout! Excellent watch. Great points all around. Probably your best video yet. I would make an argument that Sonic games are not just their physics. While that important aspect of the series has been lost, others haven't. Almost every Sonic game retains the emphasis on speedrunning and the multi-route, tiered level design that encourages replay value and rewards better players with faster clear times. And I think that's almost as important to Sonic games as the physics. So at least some of the identity is still there. But that's my issue with most Sonic stuff these days. Looking for the glimpses of Sonic I can find in "Sonic". And most of the time these days, I find that in fan works or Sonic-inspired things. Which I'll take, Sonic Breeze looks awesome. But it would be nice if one day we could see Sonic again, officially. I would also say that there is definitely some real value to the games themselves in having a greater focus on story. It adds context to what you're doing that makes the whole experience more engaging and memorable. In Green Forest in SA2, you're trying to get off Prison Island before it explodes. In Mirage Saloon in Mania, you're... playing a level in a video game.

I've never understood the reactivity towards pinning Sonic down to something that is clearly defined as if *that's* the thing limiting him as opposed to just being a hasty appropriation of whatever the industry is doing at that point in time, with consistency only being found in some ancient, compensatory design habits. Adventure is imperfect, but Since jumping to 3D it's the only time Sonic has, albeit messily, iterated on its pre-established fundamentals instead of either imitating, diluting or just straight up forgetting them. Being critical of all this doesn't have to mean everything after 1994 needs to go, it just means that there's alot about Sonic that seemingly continues to go underconsidered in favor of reacting to whatever market is currently in front of it, and it'll stay that way until the folks in charge undergo some true reflection on what it is Sonic actually brings to the table in the modern day.

Sonic Adventure is in large part a product of creative compromises. Almost every game which followed Adventure seems to have forgotten this fact, instead simply treating it as the status quo to constantly reference, creating this cycle of stagnation.

Your video essays continue to be thought provoking and worth listening to. Game design is always a complex, yet engaging topic. I wish more fans remembered to keep an open mind and were better at listening to genuinely nuanced criticism, no matter the difference in opinion. I think you bring up a lot of interesting points and valid comparisons to the classics. There’s definitely certain areas where I disagree because I tend to prefer most 3D games over 2D, but the overall message of your video is one I completely agree with.

Another bangerang video as always Caelum! I've been wishing for a proper 3D Sonic game inspired by the classics for some time. I hope some day we get it.

The homing attack really could have been improved. Fans have shown that it's better for enemies to basically be trampolines. With the homing attack keeping your momentum. Heck, even the balloons in generations is more fun than the enemies

While I still enjoy a lot of the modern games (including Frontiers) personally, I can't deny the cogency and consistency of your points here. You did a very good job highlighting the design issues following the series.

A very interesting position on what 3d sonic should be. I don't fully agree personally as I fully enjoy most of the 3d sonic games, even more so than a lot of the classics, but seeing sonic team attempt what you're asking for isn't something I'd be adverse to seeing.

I have been reaf8ng and watching online Sonic discussions and critiques for almost 2 decades now and this is the single best piece comparing the classics and the 3D games I have ever seen. Very well done.

Longtime Sonic forum crawler, here. I've studied these games for years, and I don't disagree with a lot of your points (I am extremely critical of most of the 3D Sonics) but I definitely think you're giving the Sonic Adventure games (especially SA1) a bad rap. I feel like Sonic fans in general get kind of caught up on trying to "translate classic Sonic into 3D" and calling foul when it parted ways with it, without realizing maybe some of the decisions were deliberate, or even beneficial, to good play. For starters, the speed lost from hitting springs or attacking enemies with a Homing Attack. Losing most if not all of your forward speed may seem like an antithesis to what people think classic Sonic is about, but I think it's largely for control reasons, not only for the player but for the game designer. Giving Sonic that much speed in an instant was no issue in a 2D game where the only directions to go were up, down, left or right; and walls and ceilings could easily slot Sonic into place, wherever the level designers needed Sonic to go. But in 3D, you can go around or through nearly anything. If you let Sonic retain all of that speed and height, Sonic has much more likeliness to become unruly to control and/or miss his landings, as well as much more capable for the level design to become fully trivialized. And that latter point doesn't sound like a bad thing, at first. But I think the ability to bend a game to your will should depend on how much you've learned. If it's as easy to twist as "press A in the air at a target" or "touch this spring" that's not depth, that's just a busted system. Games need rules, and you should need skill to be able to break them. If you wanted to make a good point for keeping the inertia-bounce, I'd say make it a part of a normal jump. Jumping on enemies in 3D is hard and that's why the Homing Attack exists in the first place. If we went the path of nuanced design, you could choose to jump on an enemy, sacrificing accuracy for speed/height, while the Homing Attack sacrifices speed/height for accuracy. Make the player choose on a moment-to-moment basis what they want. Another point I see is talking about linear design or Sonic's tendency to keep to streamlined paths. While I do think 3D Sonic could afford to open up and try more shortcuts/alternate routes, I think this too was deliberate and smart. Note SA1 & 2 were designed for the Dreamcast, a system without a right analog stick. There was no good way to manage or turn cameras, so it's not like they could accomodate for that in these games. But even if they did, 3D platformers (especially ones from the 5th and early 6th gen) do not account for camera movement very much. This may not be seen as a huge problem until it's realized that you're going to need to move the camera A LOT more in Sonic than other games when moving in all directions. Sonic is a character that can not only move on ground and basic slopes, but also on walls, on ceilings, on curvatures of all kinds at 360 degrees. Camera control to follow that would need to be extremely complex (something I wouldn't ask from developers of early 3D games in 1998-2001), and even when figured out would require a lot of a player's own fine tuning. Proof of this is in 3D Sonic fan games; most of them require you to maneuver the position of the camera more than even basic functions like jumping or spinning. And us Sonic fans may be able to accustom to that with our experience, but normies and less hardcore fans aren't going to have our seasoned palette and will find that widely tedious. And I know, Sonic in the 2D games is known for traveling on walls and ceilings, but again, it was in 2D, where the boundaries of what that meant were very easy to define and the camera simply only had to follow panning motions in 8 directions. The possibilities of where Sonic can go and how he interacts with the environment complicate the camera system in both how it must operate on it's own and how you must interact with it by a hundred-fold, and I think that's why a lot of Sonic gameplay in 3D sticks to more linear stage design. Justifiably so too; I think most players just want to run and jump (and spin). I think a valid point could be made that the developers of 3D Sonic from Heroes-onward definitely lost the plot and clung onto the least becoming parts of the SA gameplay, sure. I definitely think the boost games, as much as I like them, have in common with the Adventures the things you made a point to discuss/criticize; and I definitely think games like 06, Lost World and Frontiers are proof that Sonic Team have a tendency to completely lose the plot on what it means to control Sonic. I even think the Homing Attack as of present day is way too overused and poorly implemented, as is most mechanics in these games nowadays. But I do not think the Sonic Adventure games are to blame for this. I believe they did the best they could, and a lot of the rules they apply are still reasonable to apply to 3D Sonic in the present day. It's not really fair to throw what they did under the bus as game design incompetence for "not doing Sonic in 3D correctly". You were quick to mention Mario 64 changed a lot about Mario in 3D but to the benefit of maneuvering a 3D space easier. I think much of the same applies to SA1 & 2. (They could definitely do away with the dash panels, though.)

You make a lot of good points, but you (and pretty much every other creator that speaks on this topic) ignored a key issue. How can a "classic" 3D game possibly have compelling level design? It's easy to look at Sonic's control and point out the things that he lost while ignoring how they would actually work in 3D. Adventure is actually a good example of this. Is trivially easy to skip large chunks of level design with Spin-dash jumps alone. Implementing even more unchained movement would either add in the technical hurdle of making the levels much larger to compensate, or exacerbate the problem of players skipping most of the level design. Pretty much every game that's tried to adapt Sonics 2D gameplay has similar issues. I love Spark 3, but the fastest way to beat those levels is to fly over them. It drains any unique identity from a good chunk of the stages because they can all be beaten in a similar way. The solution most have settled on seems to be to add a ton of awkward collectibles to incentivize you to take slower routes through the same linear levels. I'd argue this is even worse than the Adventure games. In those games extra lives are there as a bonus, not to coax you into interacting with the level design. It might sound harsh but I've never played a game in this style with genuinely challenging and compelling level design. All of the fun comes from the novelty of the movement, If that ever wears off I lose any reason to revisit them. That's fine for these games, with a few exceptions most of them are free or cheap (I'm looking at you, Penny). But a 5-10 hour experience isn't going to fly as your big console exclusive. I don't think Sonic Team fumbled the execution, they made a deliberate and necessary compromise. They obviously didn't want their games to be sub 10 hour experiences (hence the multiple playstyles, sub games, and chao garden). And it's not like later games didn't improve on this formula. SA2 in Particular has some of the best levels in the series with ample reason to actually interact with them due to the rankings and chao garden. Of course they have their problems, but I've gotten way more mileage out of most of these titles, even if the core gameplay is less faithful. The later games aren't tripping over themselves to reintroduce the classic elements because they don't work in 3D, at least not as well. If they had tried we wouldn't have gotten something along the lines of the indie darlings we love, we would've gotten Megaman X7.

I usually don't bother with modern gaming essays, but I'll admit that I couldn't shut this off. This is a classic criticism. These are points I've heard in forums for years, and you've synthesised these points brilliantly. Excellent video.

I've had this sitting in my Watch Later for quite a while, and it is CRIMINAL that I didn't watch it until now. This is one of the best videos on Sonic that I have ever watched, and does a great job communicating a sentiment that I've had about the 3D games for years but have never been able to articulate as well as you did here. I will definitely be checking out your other stuff.

You are absolutely right, if “Sonic can be anything and still be Sonic”, then make a game that feels like the classics in 3D, for once. I mean that’s not too unreasonable right? They’ve done literally everything else

Parkour was the best thing that ever happened to sonic And for them to just throw it away like that made me not play an official sonic game in years

Some guy just said “some guy just said, “some guy just said, “erm ok?”

some guy said "erm okay?"

As someone who loves most of the 3D Sonic games, I 100% entirely agree with you here. Adventure is the closest to Classic Sonic in 3D, but it is still so far from what Classic Sonic in 3D could be, and they only got further away from that idea since then. Unfortunately, I think Sonic Team is genuinely just stuck in their ways at this point. We have had so many “generations” of Sonic Team members over the last two decades that have all been trained up on the very idea of 3D Sonic being all about homing chains, dash panels, boosting, etc. It’s to the point now where I wouldnt even trust or have faith in Sonic Team if they announced a game that returns to even the basics that Adventure set. Like, say one day Sonic Team just up and announced Sonic Adventure 3, I absolutely would not trust them to even get that right simply because of how long it has been and how few people that made the Adventure games are still even at Sonic Team. I couldn’t even trust them with that, let alone a 3D game that captures and evolves the series’ original identity.

I personally think it's even more wild that Sega/Sonic Team has forgotten that Sonic is a hedgehog in everything but name. The fact that the very reason he was designed to look the way he does and it has zero impact on the modern games (until they finally brought back spindash in Frontiers)

Idk this comes off as a bit of a black and white mindset to me. There are aspects to sonic's moveset that have been reimplemented in a redundant watered down form or even gutted, but I dont think you can compare player control on a purely "we lost this, so its worse" metric. As noted, the core mechanics of the titles aim for different things. This isnt inerently bad either even though it does seem sometimes sonic might be squeamish of itself. Point being, the mechanical systems that constitute player control are constructed to suit different design philosophies, namely level design. While the variety or type of things sonic can do will vary, a majority of the movesets are able to be competent and compelling and compliment engaging levels. The execution and quality of the games and levels weve seen put out is absolutely deserving of scrutiny, but outside of a couple of entries, I'm not sure how clearly this type of comparison can be posed

The problem is a... somewhat justified lack of faith in players. The problems inherent since Adventure have only gotten worse/more automated over time because Sonic Team is terrified of players and reviewers screwing up and blaming their error on "bad" game design. It's happened countless times. If momentum is maintained during a homing attack, confused players will fling themselves into a bottomless pit and say it's the game's fault. My jaw hit the floor when, for the first time in an official game, the Frontiers final story featured one spiral-shaped loop that had NO dash panels in it, and that the camera followed the player through. I'd never experienced that player trust in an official game to simply make it through a loop before. It's only become more apparent over the years (decades, now) how overbearing the hand-holding in Sonic is, BUT.... I do understand why they do it. Most people just don't "get" Sonic.

A probably insignificant compliment, but I appreciate the choice and usage of video clips in this video. I was never at a loss of what you were talking about about or why you felt that way.

I don't know if I agree with your point that the aethstetics of 3D Sonic are poor or the wrong direction. I thought the look of Adventures 1 and 2 really extended the more grounded look of Sonic 3 and brought it into a 3D space, especially with that of the Echindna tribal motif. And I also believe that the story of Adventure 2, especially in it's original Japanese incarnation really helps to heighten the tension at the end of the game and elevate the gameplay. That Last Story is the only time it really feels like there's a ticking time bomb and you have to race to complete the game and solve the mystery of Shadow.

erm okay?

Solid video, my friend. The points you bring up are excellent, and I wish more people would understand that viewpoint. I won't pretend to say I know what's best for Sonic, because nowadays, I'm pretty casual towards the series, jumping into the new games with low expectations, getting my fix, and then moving on. It kinda sucks that that's how I am with the series now, because even though I did enjoy Frontiers, I don't find myself going back to that game at all, not even with the free DLC it offered. Most of the new Sonic games don't have me greatly attached to them as I used to be with classic trilogy, Adventure, Heroes, or even Shadow, and I was there since the Genesis days. I really don't know what can be done to make this series better because with all the complaining we do, we are at the mercy of what Sonic Team just thinks is best for Sonic. I could say fan feedback is important, but I feel like even that can be a problem. Way before Generations came about, fans begged for the return of the "real" Sonic of the 90's, and for a while, SEGA was pretty stubborn in giving the fans just that, but now it's like, after Generations, SEGA happily plasters him everywhere just to remind us that, yep, this is indeed the classic Sonic we know and love, but even that's not true in the slightest because they flanderized this version of Sonic into being this cuddly, cute hero like if that was how it always was all along. And what's worse is that fans just accept that. That comic where the girl was hugging and squeezing classic Sonic and saying he was just like she remembered after making his Generations return while painting modern Sonic as this obnoxious creature who can't stop talking was the embodiment of how fans don't seem to get the real issue of Sonic's characterization. Anyway, sorry for that little rant. I don't often get to talk about Sonic myself because it feels so embarrassing to even be in that subject now that I'm a grown man and the argument everyone gives is that Sonic is just for kids so why even overthink it?

Man, this guy needs to become a philosopher because he really turns my thoughts into words.

Honestly, I was kind of with you, up until that very last line. "If we can't even agree on what a Sonic game is, then it only shows how far the franchise has fallen." I get the point very well; that Sega and Sonic Team have been so inconsistent in their design of the games, that it has led to everyone having a different understanding of what a Sonic game is, showing a lack of a clear identity; but I think it comes across as very dismissive of those different perspectives. Hell, I know people who are big fans of the 3D Sonic games who just aren't fans of the classic 2D stuff; and though I disagree heavily, there's nothing wrong with that. I agree with the idea that it would be good for Sega to have different branches of Sonic games that can appeal to different audiences, but the business mind in me also knows that such a thing mostly works if the idea can sell enough to fund it along side the current output (and considering Frontiers was successful, focus is more than likely being built on that). But of course, that still is built on the idea that people generally have different preferences for the kind of Sonic game they want. Even using BotW and TotK as an example as you've shown, there have also been plenty of people who actively preferred the previous 3D Zelda formula and just don't have any interest in the modern direction despite its success. Overall, I think you make a ton of great points here, even points I disagree with, and I think what you said here can make for an excellent Sonic game; but I don't quite think that's the only way a Sonic game can work or be good.

I love that you sprinkled in bits of utopia gameplay to demonstrate some points, utopia is my ideal sonic gameplay. I think it almost perfectly captures what makes the classics fun and appealing

I'm keeping this video saved, as it's the most level-headed, yet fairly critical, and overall, *genuine take from a fan who IS passionate about this series, but can't help from noticing how far we've strayed entirely.* And here's two funny things I've noticed as well: We admire, praise, and enjoy fangames more than official releases at times because they understand and FULLY take the classic formula and implant in into the 3rd dimension. - Even in official releases, our natural instinct is to try and execute certain moves we've come to expect from the sonic formula, but are disappointed when they can't be achieved due to the current stagnation of the series. Another point that I'd like to discuss is the simplistic, yet complex gameplay of the classic formula. When you mentioned about Sonic's new abilities that overshadow his core mechanics from the classics, it made me think... - As a game designer, with a moveset like the current modern Sonic, isn't it extremely challenging to make a world that can accommodate for Sonic's drastic moveset? It's the reason why even with Frontiers current state, things like unwalkable walls, invisible barriers, and dashpads are constantly used. However, by taking the classic formula and implementing it PROPERLY into a 3D space _(while taking the improvements that you've acknowledged from future releases, along with furthering their capability),_ *you have a simple, yet EXTREMELY effective moveset that only now requires you to shape the environment around it.* No advanced understanding of the controls are necessary, and Sonic Team could focus more on level-design. It's why the classic games (and Adventure 1 & 2) can be played with just the joystick/d-pad and one button.

Some guy said some guy said "erm okay?"

Personally I think going after SA1’s art style should be a civil offense

You hit the nail in the head at 31:20. The first thing that came to my mind after seeing Frontiers was: this is just "some game" that Sonic Team mindlessly slapped rings and "Sonic-y" props to call it a Sonic game in the box art and sell it. Nearly nothing in that game truly resembles or evokes Sonic, it's just a random game (that for the most part really just looks like a standard UE test map) with a Sonic skin. It's the fartest Sonic Team has ever gone about making anything and calling a Sonic game last minute. To add even further to your commentary, another game was just announced, and it's literally Fall Guys with a Sonic skin ...

First of all, let me thank you for making one of these videos and having enough understanding of this concept to be able to actually justify making it. Too many people make these video essays on Sonic Gameplay, very clearly do not know what they want, merely complain, and worse, have absolutely 0 understanding of game design in general. All that being said, I see Sonic Frontiers (v1.40 specifically) as being the best attempt to make Sonic work in 3D. Not Classic Sonic's gameplay, necessarily, but Classic Sonic's nature as a character and portrayal in the world. What I mean by this, is that Sonic CD's cutscenes, Sonic X and the Sonic OVA DO NOT portray his in-game movements at all. Very little sense of momentum or weight to his animated actions, What they do instead, is portray very quick, vectored/splined movement across a landscape, like a cannonball that can stop and turn. Shagging ass from a mountain down to a valley, and being able to control whether or not you stick to the ground when you run over a bump in terrain (the primary difference between boosting, rolling, and spindashing, by the way) is what gives you true freedom of movement. Classic Sonic is deep inside that gameplay style, just buried. All of the fundamental pieces are in place for any of the past boost titles to be that Classic Sonic in 3D game you want, but Sonic Team really loves getting in its own way. I don't think this is a "problem." This is just a different kind of game entirely. I agree that we need some 3D Classic Sonic momentum-based games, but I wouldn't give up Unleashed, Generations, or Frontiers for that. I think they are their own thing, and I think that's a-ok, as long as SEGA learns the difference, which I think they are beginning to do.

can't wait for ppl to misinterpret all of your points and put some stupid label on you.

Not gonna lie,I was chuckling when you mentioned the concept of the next Sonic game was just HellDivers 2 with Sonic in it,and asking if that would still be a "Sonic" game. Because "Ah yes,I love this cartoon blue hedgehog being in this gritty,hyper realistic setting while shooting aliens." (Wait a minute.)

It is MIND BLOWING how Sonic Colors is the only 3D Sonic game that has the badnik bounce mechanic.

What sucks about recent games like forces and frontiers is that one mechanic, the slide, is never needed at all yet it remains a part of his moveset in both games for some reason and its really weird, I liked it in gens and unleashed because they gave you many situations to use it and not only did it look really cool, but it keeps you on your toes and gives you another move to keep in mind

Great analysis. Love the adventure games to death, never once have given thought to how the springs were scripted nor how the homing attack disrupts momentum. Thanks for giving me a new perspective!

gonna procrastinate watching this for a long while but im betting it's worth the time

Excellent video. You somehow managed to articulate all of the jumbled thoughts that have been floating in my head around for years now.

I think that your criticism of the homing attack holds a lot of truth, especially with how most games use it, but I don’t think Sonic’s high speed gameplay allows him to simply hit an enemy in 3d as consistently as Mario. Sonic Utopia’s homing attack takes your angle and velocity into account with how it behaves and in a way serves as an actual aim assist rather than a strict override and it never stops your flow like the official one. (maybe you already know that since the game is in the video). In terms of visuals I also think you’re on the money, but sa1 is less photorealism and more photobashing, an aesthetic more akin to their other works like NiGHTS. Station Square and the Mystic Ruins are more elaborations off of Sonic CD than a sudden shift to realism. Sa2 had stylized bridge areas and Halloween styled pumpkin fields with ancient pyramids and a wonderfully elaborate space station. The idea is that in an ideal scenario, they would’ve played with the gradient of aesthetics they had in the games prior, but SA1 onward had pretty turbulent development with many people who defined Sonic leaving the company. You can see this with how in Heroes, they reeled back and played with the idea of adding more overt surrealism once again. Sonic 1-SA2 was basically all Sonic. It reached different extremes and played with the way you could do storytelling in a medium that allows it. There are aspects that stayed after in terms of spirit like heroes or unleashed, but the whole picture was never really positive again. Great video though, not many people are willing to be as real about the problems with 3d Sonic as you, and I say this as someone who loves Sa1 and 2 yet finds them missing things from 3 and CD.

Loving the video, but just wanted to say that while 15:36 is technically true, you can get the light speed dash to act like the adventure one by upgrading the speed stat. Whether or not locking that behind upgrading was a good idea though yeah idk

It’s like you took the words right out of my mouth. Sonic Frontiers lacks even the most basic Slope Physics yet many fans say it’s the Best he’s ever controlled, sometimes I want to agree with them but then I remember the dozen physics sliders and think how Frontiers doesn’t really have a set of Physics.

Just finished it, great job, might be your best Sonic video in terms of topic because I don't see many that talk about this, and I myself don't have a lot to say I mostly agree with it, but especially thank you for talking about the "Sonic can be anything" point, because it's such a nothing point, I know we can't expect every game to be the same thing but there should be core elements of a series that you BUILD on top of to truly make an evolution of the gameplay, not completely abandon them and just change for the sake of "evolution" (which wouldn't even apply under the definition of evolution, lol) or chasing trends, and while it's hard, I hope we get to see Sonic consistently do it in the future outside of great fan games.

You know in Sonic Adventure they actually planned to make Super Sonic playable in normal levels. If you look into the files there is a sound file for Tikal saying that "if you collect 50 rings you hit the action button while jumping to turn into Super Sonic" or something like that, but I guess they scrapped it later because his speed would break some levels (which is actually really fun).

Sonic was already too automated by Sonic 3 imo. Great game overall but you could see the beginnings of the overreliance on pace-breaking set pieces.

The commentary on the homing attack opened my eyes

I actually really like the homing attack. I enjoy the way it feels to use, and how you have to time it sometimes. I also really like using it in 2d levels like Sonic 4 Episode 2 and the 3DS version of Generations' Classic Sonic levels. I like how it slows down your moment in the air, so you can chain homing attacks together with more precise timing. I also really like how sword slashing works in Black Knights, while your character does slow down, you don't, because to slash at an enemy you have to swing the Wii Remote, so even when Sonic slows down you still feel that sense of movement through your actual movements.

I love these videos. They are very well made and the topics at hand are always fun to think about, (especially the ones unrelated to Sonic lol) I think there is much to be discussed about what it means to preserve, adapt, and change conventions in legacy media. Also, gotta love the 2 second Outer Wilds footage :p

I think it honestly is kind of sad how much a good chunk of the fanbase actively resent the classic identity just for how its overshadowed the modern games in terms of quality all the way down to the aesthetic's of those games. To echo a brief hypothesis from a video by Pariah, I truly would not have any problems with a 3D Sonic having everything be the same as the Adventure games but having aesthetics matching the general vision of Sonic during the Saturn era, and the same goes for gameplay. As much as I enjoy Frontiers, if the next game did away with bad puzzles, stock unity maps, along with the general lack of style in a majority of cutscenes, and leaned more towards what we got from the Spin Dash, with true classic sonic physics, i would genuinely not have a problem with that. You mentioned the "boring" action chain challenges but I want them to be the blueprint for Sonic unlocking things (would rather it not be a core part of his moveset that makes the game better) through maintaining a score combo via a flow of actions (much like Tony Hawk), with higher scores unlocking either more of the map, or a certain skill for Sonic (rather than just handing it to you via a skill tree or getting an arbitrary combat move from saving his friends). It would certainly be better than playing Google Play Legend of Zelda for a chunk of map. Again, I'm saying all this as someone who consiiders Frontiers an 8/10, I think its a good game and it really brought me back down to what I like about Sonic. But I still see the value of honoring Sonic's better games through one that properly translates his most defining and unique aspects.

I was never a huge fan of classic sonic, but I really took for granted how iconic the aesthetic was to sonic as a whole. It's crazy how much we've devolved into just "real life" aesthetics with cities and just baron stretches of dirt & flora. (When they aren't just copying common level tropes)

I've been waiting for someone to make a video like this, thank you

Homing attack would be cooler if it always behaving like the homing attack on balloons. Imagine homing attack but you're flying forward still after hitting the enemy and still have complete control over the character. Titanfall style wall running that maintains momentum and feels smooth. Large open world sandbox style worlds that can play in any direction you go. Every game play mechanic, offering different routes and options depending on what they make available.

Excellent video and analysis as always. I’m so glad you brought up the harsh difference in aesthetics and tone between classic and modern. Colors was the last game we got that brought back those whimsical, colorful, and ORIGINAL level themes. If only the gameplay were at the same level.

Mr telekinesis man, I was the fellow chat member in your prime stream telling you to check out a specific momentum platformer which I had special hands on experience with at the most recent Games Developers Conference in sf. I god my hands on an early access version of HASTE broken worlds. Please check out gameplay footage of that game, because playing it with a controller felt 82 times more satisfying than what you got to see through a video. This is an excellent essay by the way. Fantastic work, and I am eagerly awaiting whatever the next project will look like from Evening star. I haven’t had as much fun as I did in Pennys Big Breakaway in decades, that game will forever have a special place in my heart.

It is always so difficult to leave comments on these videos because I have nothing to say about them. The only thing I have to add is: *nods* Yeah, pretty much!

I agree with you dude 😊. I thinking like this for years about the changes of 3D sonic.

6:50 I am a SA2 lover and think being linear isn't a problem, it still has what sonic is all about FOR ME which is SPEED and MASTERY which are there in a new style of gameplay

14:00 I don't think the flow of sonic was ruined by its 3D games, it was just a different kind of making speed a reward and things such as the homing attack from multiple games was so smooth you coul hardly notice any loss of momentum (not all games do that)

Some guy said some guy said “erm okay?”

Man, has it really been almost 10 years since Sonic Spitball? I remember watching those videos when I was a teenager, getting all bright-eyed thinking about how different things could be for Sonic in several years and yet, miraculously, those videos are just as relevant now as they were back then lol

I just finished Frontiers and this video perfectly encapsulates all the issues I had with it. The inorganic “blocks in the sky” approach to world design with ruins that frankly feel samey island to island, the stop and go physics including that ruinous deceleration of the jump you mentioned, the ceaseless automation - it drags the whole game down. Getting to tweak the deceleration in the DLC was nice but like you said, what benefit was there to not have this? It just made Sonic feel worse to control. Frontiers is bold for the franchise but I worry the developers can get so enamoured with their new ideas they forget to take care of the fundamentals. At any rate, I came away from this video with some food for thought on what 3d Sonic is. Hadn’t even considered things like how modular springs are in the classics or the absence of the badnik bounce in 3d. Good work.

I mean the whole sonic 1 itself wasn’t faithful to green hill that made sonic so cool and fast, only green hill and starlight zone were fast paced, others like marble zone were slow

some guy said "some guy said 'erm okay?'"

It’s funny how every 3D Sonic game has Mindless Homing Attack Chains but ONLY in Frontiers did I notice JUST how mindless they are. I swear at least 40% of that game’s level design is mindless homing attacks (the rest is all Automated LOL).

The fundamental issue with Sonic Team post adventure is that they stopped having confidence in Sonic. Rather than being trailblazers in their own right that alters the very fabric of the industry like in the Genesis days, they've stopped being faithful to themselves for the sake of chasing the current video game trends. Shadow the Hedgehog is infamous for trying to copy Ratchet and Clank, becoming a crude parody of edgy cash in games of the time. Sonic 06 is trying to incorporate as much of Final Fantasy into itself as much as humanly possible. Sonic Lost World is Mario Galaxy, Sonic Frontiers is BOTW, etc. Sonic has transformed into this bizarre pop culture chameleon that has resigned to simply blending in with the background. And this distinct lack of confidence not only goes against Sonic on a fundamental level, but permeates every aspect of 3D Sonic games. From the inconsistent presentation to the gameplay being a Ship of Theseus that is now unrecognizable from where it started. This lack of confidence culminates in Frontiers, and ESPECIALLY in it's custom physics slider. That has to be by far the dumbest thing to have ever been implemented in this franchise. Not only does it make it near impossible to make coherent level design due to not being able to account for the near infinite player actions, but also makes it more difficult to improve on whatever Frontiers was even trying to do due to the wildly different experiences it offers. Like everything in Frontiers, it's a hail mary throw done out of sheer desperation and cowardice, and I loath it and everything it stands for. It's no coincidence how the best received Sonic games post-Geneis and pre-Frontiers were the games that tried to reconcile with Sonic's identity and have confidence in its strengths. Colors, Unleashed, Frontiers, Mania. They all at least TRIED to bring back that spark of confidence that was lost to varying degrees of success. Mania especially is the prime example thay suceeds in that, that game OOZES confidence in what it's trying to do, and truly felt like it was trying to stand out from the crowd. It truly felt like Sonic finally had it's act together, before Forces promptly shattered that illusion merely months later. Forces and Frontiers are cold reminders that this issue cannot be resolved until some major changes happens at Sonic Team, and by extension Sega themselves.

Gonna have to disagree with this. The 2D and 3D Sonic games are fundamentally different, just like the 2D and 3D Mario games are different. When I play a 2D Sonic game, I expect things to work in a certain way, the basic m word type physics those games have always had. But you can't play Generations or Frontiers with those same expectations. For example, the homing attack does stop you if you use it, but in Generations you can boost through enemies, you shouldn't be stopping to attack random enemies in the first place it just wastes time. As for loops, if they weren't scripted you'd run the risk of slipping off, an issue not present in 2D games since you'd just hold right anyway. Homing attack chains also wouldn't work if you kept your m word after a homing attack. Basically think of it like this, when playing Frontiers the titan fights were amazing and I loved them, but i wouldn't then complain that Sonic Superstars doesn't have things like that. Modern Sonic is more focussed on speed and set pieces rather than m word, and that's fine, a lot of people like them. I just hate this idea that the first few Sonic games are the gold standard and everything has to work the way they did.

Great thoughts about gameplay, don't agree with the artstyle opinion. Sonic 2 was already moving away from surrealism, and Sonic 3 looks much more like Sonic Adventure than Sonic 1

Good video, and I agree with everything you said about the gameplay and the franchise split, but I honestly love Sonic in more realistic environments. I think SA1, Unleashed and Frontiers have the best aesthetics in the entire series, barring Mania cause Mania is just too good, and Sega has always blended cartooniness and realism really damn well.

I like the more realistic look of the 3D games and their more serious stories with humans. It fits Sonic and his cool feel. Not every game needs to go for the classic art style.

I'm currently 14 minutes in to this video So far, it seems most of your complaints seem to be about missing things that would be awful to control in 3D. The truth is, 2D Sonic in 3D does not work. There are camera issues, control issues, level design issues and other things that are very hard to confront when you try adapting everything from the 2d games into 3D. Automation for example, in Sonic Adventure, they rely on it because doing loops in 3D with the camera placed behind Sonic in disorienting, and you have to make them big enough for the player to not go flying off of them on accident, which places certain restrictions on level design and anesthetics. Continuing the video now.

Wow uh. . . You changed some of my perspective on things, awesome video dude!!!

This is the type of discussion I wish there was more of. Some of the points in this video are also mirrored in Running Shine's Sonic Adventure review, which I highly recommend if you haven't seen it. I'm really passionate about the idea of improving on 3D Sonic in a way that captures the game design essence of the Genesis games.

What a great fucking essay. One of the best on the topic I've ever seen.

For me, the most defining aspect that binds the series gameplay regardless of entry is the "flow" state which various games do better or worse. It's kinda hard to describe... It's that thrill and satisfaction of being able to harness the character and master the challanges presented by the level design while keeping a good pace. Be it by building speed yourself with momentum or having an instant boost button, the means ARE different but I find the sensation of playing both at the top speed quite similiar actually. Ideally the flow is enforced by great level design and game feel, less so automation which should be minimized and not take control away from the player, skillful play should feel intrinsically rewarding and push you to do better and better, it's that feeling I get after A ranking City Escape every time...

A lot of really interesting and constructive food for thought here, especially on the gameplay end of things, would’ve loved to have seen even more insight into that for this video since I feel like discussion on Sonic’s aesthetics has been pretty worn out at this point haha I do wonder if a lot of the grievances with the 3D formulas shown here have anything to do with the circumstances the games were made in. Putting aside the fact that these games are notoriously made in quick 1-2 year active production cycles, there’s also Sonic’s stance in wider culture. 2D Sonic gameplay has always struck me as something that should’ve belonged to a more niche series, rather than one of the most popular gaming franchises in history. I could see a lot of the points you brought up about Adventure 1 being the result of the devs worrying that a more faithful translation of Classic Sonic’s nuances would’ve been too unwieldy for new players, especially after Sonic had a marked absence in the Saturn days. Kinda makes me wonder how Sonic would’ve evolved if he was built to have more of a smaller presence rather than that of a Mario-type figure. Personal thoughts and my own opinions on these games aside, a lot of very fascinating and insightful points made here. Your analysis is seriously improving with each vid (Also Pseudoregalia mention let’s goooooo that wall kick needs to be in every game or somethin)

0:13 it is weird when people say that the franchise re-invents itself multiple times when they did it only 3 times which were: 1998- 2006 adventure 2008- 2017 boost 2022-NOW open zone But people think that lost world and heroes count when they where never planned to be sonic's WHOLE new direction but just a different little game for example: sonic lost world was never meant to be sonic's new direction just a little WII U game to introduce sonic to some nintendo fans, not the end of the boost forever

While I can't agree on every last point-for example, the notion that loops are an obstacle is WAY overblown if even in the older games you can count on one hand the number of zones where this was even the least genuinely so, and that Sonic Adventure's world design was some sort of betrayal of the classics when in reality Sonic was always meant to inhabit a modern world that mixed the mundane and the madcap, INCLUDING humans-you ARE hitting the mark when it comes to most gameplay and identity issues with Sonic. However, I have some addendums to make to your points, so brace yourself: -I believe why, in Adventure 1, hitting Badniks became a momentum killer stems from two other ways the series tried to adapt to 3D: more horizontally-oriented level design to take advantage of 3D space, and the straight-behind-the-back default camerawork. They make it more important and more difficult, respectively, to properly judge distance. Thus they designed physics and areas in ways to diminish actually needing to make those judgments instead of figuring out how to make said judgments easier. EDIT: Yes, drop shadows are there, in most Sonic games anyway, but they're no guarantee with the possibilities for speed and height as well as how wild the camera can get, plus they botched how the camera adapts to jumping by not having it be aimed already above Sonic when he's grounded and instead constantly panning with him, thus it fails to sufficiently show where he's actually headed vertically. Masahiro Sakurai touched upon the camera issue in his On Creating Games series. -THANK YOU for calling out the Spam Dash. The Spin Dash is supposed to be a GAMBLE that stopping for a bit will make you faster overall. Yet almost EVERYONE I'd met in this blasted fanbase praises the Spam Dash because they hate losing raw speed for even a microsecond and "unlike the Boost it takes AcTuAl sKiLl!!1". Yeah, because _mashing_ a button instead of holding it is _SO SKILLFUL._ I hate when people insist good Sonic play is about simply maintaining raw speed because that's rarely the best way to land a good time in a race with literal twists and turns all over. -Speaking of the Boost, I don't believe it's a totally off-track (speaking of racing, too, lol) idea. It's just in the wrong form. It should be a momentary non-invincible speed burst with cooldown, with the Strike Dash/Peel-Out and Spin Dash still being faster, so it's there more for an immediate start, speed maintenance and finer control. And it should also be your Parkour button, both from the ground and from an Air Dash, something Frontiers actually got right and indeed may have been part of the original intent for Lost World. -And speaking of Frontiers, while I get frustration over apparent indecisiveness regarding controls, I don't believe the control sliders are a bad thing for accessibility. EDIT: Many modern games have stuff like that, including the Splatoon games despite them being competitively-oriented Nintendo exclusives. It's to the degree that it is in Frontiers in part because of how hard it can be to keep speed under control, though, yes, the fan fights over how Sonic should handle are also a factor. But I'm fine with that. END EDIT Particularly for Frontiers, I don't believe simply navigating the islands was intended to be part of its "real" challenge, and apart from the patched-in jump deceleration slider because of that affecting Cyber Space as well, that's the only problem of Frontiers the control tweaking really solves. -When it comes to franchise identity, many fans, especially post-Genesis fans, are more focused on Sonic himself and his personality than on his world (ahem) or even gameplay. They see him as an ever-optimistic, inspiring teen superhero that loves to live fast, him being born as a video game character not mattering so much. Which is why they don't mind so much the fact that his friends were nerfed in Adventure 2 to be less like him: whatever keeps Sonic unique in that regard. So you may be marching out to lose that battle. Which is a fucking shame; while that assessment of Sonic's personality isn't wrong nor is that personality to any degree trivial to his identity or appeal, the truth is that Sonic NEEDS his friends to be variations on him for his franchise to survive and thrive, both for gameplay and for story. They can add variety to his own standard playstyle, either as loners or in combination with one another, as the games that have them be like that make obvious. And to facilitate that, Sonic and Shadow need standard flight moves-I propose a one-shot-per-jump, aimable-while-charging Air Spin Dash for Sonic and a Triple Spin Jump with the ability to sharply change direction on the air jumps, such turning possibly aided by the shoe jets, for Shadow; such moves would be about speed over ease of control in line with playing as a seasoned speed specialist like Sonic-so levels that can be a fair and decent challenge for all characters can be made. EDIT: This approach is needed as basic Sonic gameplay is an extreme specialization of basic Mario play, emphasizing inherent mobility over powerups as having the former greatly diminishes the inpact of the latter-not to say more powerup-oriented play a la Colors can't work on occasion. END EDIT Side playstyles can still exist when the story calls for them as usual, but the usual running playstyle should stay the norm. And as a speed-oriented hero, Sonic's partners absolutely should be able to keep up with him on the regular, and in any case, even though they're all like a family of sorts, he shouldn't have to rescue them almost as much as depend on them to help rescue others. It's OK for them to have problems-they're young, too-but not to the point where they become part of the rabble Sonic saves on a regular basis, and Sonic ought to have problems now and then as well. Plus he can face real skill challenges from them instead of just from his enemies when there's down time. Good old friendly rivalry, like Street Fighter's Ryu and Ken. And Tails especially was supposed to be basically a budding eventual better Sonic as the Japanese Sonic 2 manual highly suggests, held back only by the inexperience and underdevelopment of youth but being determined and quick to overcome those regardless. Even his Sonic Jam profile doesn't name any known weaknesses for him. Because he's The Bestest Boy. ♡ Until Adventure 2 shot that all to Hell. :

I gave this video a fair shake, and I'll grant the vast majority of your points are entirely agreeable, BUT despite my love of Sonic fan games that do deliver on the shortcomings of 3D sonic as he's become I must also note that from my personal experience there's a lot of over-correcting that's been done that makes me realize that maybe, JUST MAYBE some of the things that we hold as issues with 3D Sonic games are perhaps more necessary than we'd like to believe.

I’m ngl I’m a way bigger fan of the adventure style gameplay rather than the classics, I do view them as their own unique fun thing but I loved hearing you talk about your perspective and you definitely had many good ideas, great video!

It’s almost like physics based gameplay is not what frontiers is about

Excellent video. Found myself agreeing with a LOT more of your points than i expected to going in, especially as someone who enjoys 3D Sonic at large. Your mentions of the springs, spamdash, and homing attack in SA1 are points i especially resonate with. Also it's interesting that when mentioning the homing attack in 2D u didn't really talk about the one from the Rush series which ironically does retain your horizontal momentum even if the badnik bounce is effectively absent of those games. Also really appreciate the shoutout to sonic spitball as it's a video series i regularly come back to, especially the 3rd episode.

This was a VERY necessary video to make. And i may not fully agree with everything you've said, but by and large i agree with your main point here. Sonic games need to play to the sttengths of the series again and its been FAR too long since that has happened.

Well, you basically said what I've and many others have been thinking for decades. Between you and Pariah695 I've better come to realize what makes an engaging experience, sonic game or not. I can accept a sonic game for what it is like Heroes or unwiished if they're cleverly designed in their own right.

Honestly I feel like after the adventure games they wanted to try something new with each new installment but just didn't know what to do or what direction to take

This video was absolutely amazing and expresses my frustrations with this series perfectly given how much potential is in simply trying at least once to faithfully translate 2D Sonic (not just his controls but also it’s level design philosophy art direction and story telling into 3D) just once is all I ask for and see how it goes. But one thing this video also had me realizing is how far Sonic had deviated from it’s roots to the point that if a game like Unleashed (my personal favorite 3D sonic game) was switched out for a different character would we even think it was a sonic game this being even worst when you look at games like forces that completely take away player expression by turning the entire game into a QTE or frontiers which open worlds are so dull and empty aesthetically and in gameplay mechanics and level design that if someone were to switch the characters would people even notice with the homing attack or spin dash? Wow this video really opened my eyes to how automated and unrecognizable Sonic has become. Another thing you opened my eyes to his how much the objects in the levels now almost never help you and you’ll find yourself trying to avoid them as much as possible going back the Unleashed the rainbow rings especially on rails usually do nothing but slow you down and kill the pace this being the case with almost every object whether that be springs, badniks, and even dash panels ironically as they typical slow you down to the set speed they think you should be going at regardless of how fast you were going prior. The problem isn’t these 3D sonic games lack flow (atleast the older ones.) but in order to maintain flow it’s better you avoid the objects in the level as much as possible as they almost always slow you down.The “Defining “A Sonic Game” part was the best part of this video in my opinion the Helldivers point being completely genius because truthful at this point who’s to say Sonic next game couldn’t be a Helldivers game? Amazing video I cannot stress that enough I’m literally saving this video despite me liking and subscribing because I never want to lose this video.

Great video! I’ve always thought about Sonic as being primarily about flow, even moreso than it is about speed, so I appreciate the breakdown of the 3D games’ tendency to momentarily break that flow in increasingly absurd and unnecessary ways. I absolutely adore a lot of 3D Sonic games, so I hope other 3D Sonic fans can approach this analysis without predetermined hostility

32:36 The first thought I had when I played Super Mario Odyssey was “I don’t know how to explain what makes me say this but this is the best Sonic game I’ve ever played.” (I now know how to explain; hear me out). For me, the most important aspects of Sonic gameplay have always been skill-based exploration, momentum*, and freedom, all tied together by speed. I didn’t realize these were the things I valued most in Sonic gameplay and wanted the most out of the 3D games until I played Odyssey, which is a game that embodies all three of those aspects amazingly, only lacking the “speed” aspect that glues all of those things together. It was an _implicit understanding_ of what makes a Sonic game a Sonic game, just like you said. I have since given it thought and now _explicitly_ understand what makes a Sonic game a Sonic game to me and why Odyssey made me feel that way: *Skill-based exploration:* one of my favorite parts about the classic games is how you can discover secrets and alternative paths through skill expression. It’s not as simple as just checking behind a secret door; you have to be good enough at the game’s core movement mechanics to gain access to the top paths, find the giant secret stage rings, pass though a checkpoint with enough rings to unlock the bonus stage, etc. For Odyssey, this same concept applies, only _its_ core movement and skill revolves mastery of Cappy instead of slope physics. Speaking of… *Momentum:* I put an asterisk here because I’m not JUST talking about slope physics. I’m also talking about being able to maintain an uninterrupted flow, again based on your skill. In classic games, this means maintaining the speed you’ve earned and steadily earning more by knowing the layout well, dodging traps, staying on the top path, and bouncing off of enemies, in addition to literally rolling down slopes. For Odyssey? I got into the game through watching speedrunners and found that even at my level, the better I got at the movement, the more I was able to maintain a state of flow if I wanted to, keeping things moving and flying up and down and all around the level. *Freedom:* For Sonic games, this means little to no automation, the freedom to actually engage with the exploration and momentum I just discussed however and whenever you want, and a lack of restraint on how you are allowed to do so. No limits. This is the aspect I appreciate the most from fan games and Sonic-likes, like the ones you showed in the video. You can run on any wall and vault over any obstacle if you have the skill to. Even linear Sonic levels have the potential to become sandboxes in terms of how you can choose to engage with the movement and momentum you build to complete it, developing your own style. This could manifest itself in tons of ways, like a parkour system for instance. The classic games, Advance games, and even Rush games I’d argue all do this FAR better than any 3D Sonic game. Frontiers _technically_ does this the best out of any 3D game, but you have to intentionally play around the automation littered literally everywhere in order to do so; my ideal Sonic game would have none whatsoever to have to avoid in the first place. And Odyssey does this in ways I hardly feel I need to mention; Cappy is the ultimate tool for this kind of thing, and Odyssey doesn’t hold him back from reaching his potential at all. And I was able to recognize all of this in Odyssey subconsciously, before I was even able to explain what it was I had recognized. Like you said: it’s implicit. Deep down, we all can sense what makes a real Sonic game a Sonic game. I’m sure even Sonic Team knows this; I just hope they begin to _explicitly_ recognize them too someday.

34:12 Honestly, I like Sonic because of the stories and characters. I became a fan of Sonic in the first place through the anime Sonic X and through watching the cutscenes of the games on KZfaq.

I’d say that the only real thru line you could draw that sets Sonic apart from any other video game is the character of sonic himself which is probably why some people like black knight so much because some people consider it the best version of sonic.

It’s tiring seeing Sonic Teams continues attempt to fit a square peg into a round hole, refusing to reassess the situation, opting instead to try fitting it into different round holes in the hope that it will eventually fit, despite fans' warnings to the contrary only to begrudging accept that it might work this time around.

"What defines a Sonic game?" Speed, platforming, and exploration. All of the games that are considered the best have a mix of these three attributes. This is why people like Frontiers. It's fun.

I recall the "Additive Homing" mod (21:12?) for Sonic Generations which i initially had set aside due to the level design not accommodating for it, but this video made me realize how fun a Sonic game that revolves around a homing attack that carries horizontal speed would be.

22:24 Hey look, that's my friend's Sonic fan game!