The Sub Crawl is FLAWED!!!

The Sub Crawl is FLAWED!!! - 5 Reasons Why

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The Sub Crawl is FLAWED!!! - 5 Reasons Why
Calibrated Mics: ⬇️⬇️⬇️
miniDSP UMIK-1 - amzn.to/3JZ8m8p
miniDSP UMIK-2 - amzn.to/3LDavI6
UMIK-1 with miniDSP 2x4HD - amzn.to/42KnM7Z
UMIK-2 with miniDSP 2x4HD - amzn.to/3JC55dR
Dayton Audio UMM-6 - amzn.to/3JDDR6m
Earthworks M23 Omni Mic - amzn.to/3yWbpb2
Earthworks M30 Omni Mic - amzn.to/3n365jm
Room EQ Wizard (FREE) - www.roomeqwizard.com/
miniDSP Tutorials - bit.ly/Home-Theater-Gamer-min...
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Bulb Projectors:
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BasX Amplifiers
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Emotiva BasX A-500 - bit.ly/Emotiva-BasX-A-500
_____
My 7.2.4 Dedicated Home Theater System:
Speakers:
(3) JTR Noesis 212HTR - bit.ly/JTR_Noesis_212HTR
(4) Klipsch RS-62ii - amzn.to/2ET4R2w
(4) Klipsch CDT-5800-C II Atmos Speakers - amzn.to/2P4PdEZ
(2) JTR Captivator RS2 Subwoofers - bit.ly/jtr-captivator-rs2
Video:
JVC DLA-NX7 Projector - bit.ly/JVC-DLA-NX7
150" Seymour Center Stage XD (2.35:1) AT Screen - seymourav.com/screensDIY.php
Pioneer UDP-LX500 - bit.ly/2GwGZly
PS5
Audio:
Marantz AV7706 11.2 Processor - bit.ly/Marantz_AV7706
Monolith 11X Amplifier - amzn.to/2VB4CAg
GIK Acoustics - bit.ly/GIK-Acoustics-1
Theater Seating:
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Lighting:
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Пікірлер: 256

@Youthman Жыл бұрын

The Sub Crawl is FLAWED!!! - 5 Reasons Why Calibrated Mics: ⬇⬇⬇ miniDSP UMIK-1 - amzn.to/3JZ8m8p miniDSP UMIK-2 - amzn.to/3LDavI6 UMIK-1 with miniDSP 2x4HD - amzn.to/42KnM7Z UMIK-2 with miniDSP 2x4HD - amzn.to/3JC55dR Dayton Audio UMM-6 - amzn.to/3JDDR6m Earthworks M23 Omni Mic - amzn.to/3yWbpb2 Earthworks M30 Omni Mic - amzn.to/3n365jm Room EQ Wizard (FREE) - www.roomeqwizard.com/ miniDSP Tutorials - bit.ly/Home-Theater-Gamer-miniDSP ------- Weekly and monthly Zooms on Patreon - www.patreon.com/youthman MWAVE 2023 Tickets and Info - midwestavexperience.com/ Best pricing on Home Theater products - youthmanreviews.com/sales/ FREE Home Theater Design Tool - bit.ly/Home_Theater_Design_Tool Submit your Home Theater - hometheatertours.com. Ways You Can Support: Patreon: www.patreon.com/youthman Youthman Courses - www.youthmancourses.com/ Youthman Merch - teespring.com/stores/youthman/ Donation via Venmo @Youthman Follow Us: KZfaq: Subscribe to this Channel: goo.gl/YEJ23p Youthman Crew Facebook Group - facebook.com/groups/youthmancrew Instagram: instagram.com/youthmanreviews/ Twitter: twitter.com/youthmanreviews/ Website: youthmanreviews.com/ ____ Disclaimer: Affiliate Links are used in the description of this video. I earn from qualifying purchases. Valencia Bespoke Series Theater Seats: Tuscany Ultimate Luxury - bit.ly/valencia-tuscany-ultimate-luxury Oslo Ultimate Luxury - bit.ly/valencia-oslo-ultimate-luxury Naples - bit.ly/Valencia_Naples Valencia Cinema Series Theater Seats: Venice - bit.ly/valencia_venice Budapest - bit.ly/valencia_budapest Piacenza - bit.ly/valencia_piacenza Piacenza Powered Headrest - bit.ly/valencia_piacenza_powered_headrest Verona - bit.ly/valencia_verona Verona - Powered Headrest - bit.ly/valencia_verona Valencia Premier Series Theater Seats: Oslo - bit.ly/valenciaoslo Oslo XL - bit.ly/valenciaosloxl Zurich - bit.ly/valenciazurich Tuscany - bit.ly/valencia_tuscany Bern - bit.ly/valencia_bern All Valencia Seating - bit.ly/valencia_all

@justinlewis2005 Жыл бұрын

It’s nice to see an old school Youthman video again! Just you talking to us from your theater! Great stuff👍

@Youthman Жыл бұрын

Thanks Justin. More of that in the works. 😉

@krishnataveras8734 Жыл бұрын

I agree lately all I see is clips from him with the other two guys.

@Youthman Жыл бұрын

I have the same amount of “normal” home theater tips, tours and review videos, I have just added podcasts and podcast clips to the channel. The last few podcasts have been three hours long answering a ton of questions. Most people aren’t going to watch a three hour podcast so I chop up some of the clips answering specific questions.

@Youthman Жыл бұрын

I currently have about 15 products in for review

@JasonLegacy1 Жыл бұрын

@Youthman Youthman I would definitely recommend putting timestamps in your livestreams for all the different questions being answered that way people can still go back and watch them and choose where to watch and listen in the video. You should be able to go back and do so after the livestream is all said and done.

@jk330ci Жыл бұрын

I think the subwoofer crawl was more in mind for people who was just getting in to subwoofers and using smaller entry level subs. Also this has been around long before REW and similar were readily available. It’s a simple way for the average person to get in a position that might be better than where they may place it ascetically

@Youthman Жыл бұрын

I agree it can absolutely be a starting point, I just wish it was taught as that

@BigART1791 Жыл бұрын

I had my subs on either side of my left and right tower, but not near the corners. I moved my subs to the corners, a couple months ago, and what an improvement in volume. I wish I knew this a lot sooner. I have yet to get a microphone to dial them in further.

@voiceofreason9238 Жыл бұрын

Another great vid, Youthman! Well reasoned. Reason #5 was the best, as evidenced by the video of you crawling around on all fours in the theater room! 🤣

@Youthman Жыл бұрын

Haha

@vasanthanb1947 Жыл бұрын

Useful information! Thanks for sharing 👍🏻.

@jamesbannister7512 Жыл бұрын

I have never had luck with crawling. Dual subwoofers pretty much took care of a majority of issues I have ever had with bass

@Youthman Жыл бұрын

Nice James!

@jyfjgtyuh 2 күн бұрын

You are correct, but the most important reason is that the subwoofer interacts with the room. Placing the sub against a wall or in corner will boost the volume, moving the sub to the left or the right of the main speaker can have significant effect on peaks and nulls. In summery, placing the sub in the main seating position will not sound the same as placing it in the place where it sound best when you crawl. The correct way is to fiscally move the sub, measure with a calibrated mic in the main listening position using REW. Having said that, in most cases the best position to put the sub is not always feasible, but you can try different feasible locations and choose the best.

@VNaik713 Жыл бұрын

This was sooooo helpful, Thanks Youthman!!!! I have 4 Klipsch Subs in the 4 corners of my media room, It sounds good, but from time to time with different songs something seems awry so I'm super glad that you explained that something CAN be done to improve how the 4 subs cooperate!!!!

@Youthman Жыл бұрын

Glad you found the video helpful

@garysmith8455 Жыл бұрын

Hey there Michael, I have the Martin Logan Dynamo 1600X with the Anthem room correction paired with the Classic 9 ESLs. THAT made it SO easy. I had a big peak at 25 HZ. at the listening post in my 18x24' space. After ARC (from a minimum of 5 listening positions - you can go up to TEN!), the display showed the huge improvement! 25Hz, was leveled, and the range was extended to 15Hz. It is so cool plugging the laptop INTO the subwoofer directly when finished it sends that data to the sub and also does occasional firmware upgrades this way as well. You can switch ARC in and out on the fly from your device and hear the differences instantly. Can't say enough about how easy and effect this procedure is. Well, that is my experience with the Martin Logan/Anthem joint effort which is also found in their larger Estats as well.

@Youthman Жыл бұрын

That’s great to hear. Using measurements is the best method.

@garysmith8455 Жыл бұрын

@@Youthman Thanks for the encouragement and all of your great video presentations !😊

@Youthman Жыл бұрын

I appreciate you, Gary

@stephengreen8058 Жыл бұрын

With the crawl your meant to use bass sweeps not content to get an idea across the frequencies. Using that solves one of your 5. Measuring is great but it comes at a cost and a massive time committment if you have lots of options. I wouldn't put people off it, as it's a great starter way for your average person with one sub and just got into the hobby, as for them a measurement mics would be a significant additional cost for them. But as you state diagonal opposite corners will work most of the time, assuming the room is a rectangle and you can afford 2 subs.

@arielalaniz6057 Жыл бұрын

Agree. Listen to sweeps to listen to change in SPL in all frequencies. Not content.

@ROYALTYMB Жыл бұрын

Just to let you know, I have used the audyssey Mic for the Denon receiver with Rew. Not exactly sure how accurate it is, would be interesting if you could do a video with REW and use an audyssey Mic versus your calibrated Mic to see what the difference is. I have dual subs one sealed, one ported. I use Audyssey to EQ the dual subwoofers, but after using REW, I realized time alignment was off. I ended up switching my subwoofer distances on my Denon AVR little by little using REW. Now I have plus or minus 3dB from 18Hz to 80Hz. Bass is a lot better now. Thanks for your videos.

@mauriciob8260 Жыл бұрын

Excellent video , I never did the sub crawl method and I got excellent low frequencies with my 4 12" inches Klipsch : 2 are located besides my front speakers , the third and fourth are located just below my surround back speakers

@Youthman Жыл бұрын

Thank you kindly.

@johnscott4385 Жыл бұрын

Good video. The “cheesy” expressions on your face during your crawl, made me laugh!

@Youthman Жыл бұрын

Just having some fun 🤣🤣🤣

@IxaBargara Жыл бұрын

Smart button-up shirt, Michael. Oh, and many great insights shared in this vid again.

@Youthman Жыл бұрын

Thank you kindly

@adamjj85 Жыл бұрын

Totally agree, just get a UMIK and REW and measure different positions and you will get a much more accurate result.

@keepingupwiththejones2933 Жыл бұрын

Some old school bassheads will be coming for Youthman😅😂

@Youthman Жыл бұрын

I’m ok with that. 😂

@keepingupwiththejones2933 Жыл бұрын

@Regular Guy Audio very true🤣😂. Hope you are well my friend♥️♥️

@knowledgeunderstanding4192 Жыл бұрын

Uh oh

@bingdong8571 Жыл бұрын

I've never used the sub crawl method, probably because I was just lazy, but one thing not discussed is the height of your subs. I think this an also dramatically effects sound but u can't really mount subs to wall but u can stack them which was recommended to me by emotiva. I love the location of your particular subs youthman as they are much more centered height wise. I might try stacking 2 in each corner. Thanks for the video

@marcgallant5270 Жыл бұрын

On point Mike!

@Youthman Жыл бұрын

Thanks Marc

@johanmak4169 10 ай бұрын

I have a Lyngdorf TDAI-3400 amplifier. It comes with a microphone stand and a microphone. If you use Room Perfect, you can easily place your subs in a corner, and no issues at all, because you can adapt anything, for instance time alignment. All done within half an hour. Magic.

@Ethantaj Жыл бұрын

Nice. Youthman if you can. Can you do a video on sound treatments. What brand you’re using. Thanks.

@bkrhino1 Жыл бұрын

It is true. You place subwoofers where they fit and has electricity. Use REW / minidsp 2X4HD to optimize for multiple subwoofers.

@dannyroldan_av Жыл бұрын

Love this. I had a similar issue. I have two 18" subs and i could never put it on my seat. lol

@Youthman Жыл бұрын

A bit awkward isn’t it. 🤣

@frankkeeler5144 Жыл бұрын

When i first started i put the sub on the MLP and moved the microphone around instead of moving the big heavy sub around. Its like the the sub crawl but with science.

@brianchristopher4666 Жыл бұрын

Not exactly. The crawl can help you quickly identify a potential good location for subs in relation to seating locations. Yes , measuring ultimately gets you more information but it's mostly still never going to be perfect from all seating locations, where as peaks can be knocked down with EQ. You can anyways use a smaller sub for testing locations if necessar.. I say don't automatically discredit the crawl! It's a good searching method if not finalizing procedure

@Youthman Жыл бұрын

I do love your approach Brian. I just wish more people would state it that way, rather than promoting it as “this is all you need to do”.

@Bunny-Bones 10 ай бұрын

Dude……. Thank you 🙏🏼. The thought never crossed my mind. Now I have a RP-1600SW and I just can’t scoot this biggin around. Somehow I just never thought to use a older one to get a sense of things. I’ve been stuck with a absolute guess. Today I’m going to start dialing in a placement! Ty

@curtishunterii7025 Ай бұрын

Excellent...

@victorpulos823 Жыл бұрын

I am glad see you back in your own home theater doing video

@chrisbow1776 Жыл бұрын

I think when you have got to the level of home cinema as you have, you do not need to worry about subwoofer placement given the setup you have. You ain't gonna find a better more convenient place for your subs liekwhere you already have them. Can't say I have ever heard of the crawl method, but considering I have a living room setup with a single 10-inch sub, I might give it a go.

@justinzamora6553 Жыл бұрын

Steve from Home Theater Gurus agrees with you. His Episode 10 talks about the problems and alternatives to the sub crawl.

@deankim6687 Жыл бұрын

Some valid points

@beaubrumley2890 7 ай бұрын

Do you need the miniDSP if your AVR has left and right outs? For only two subs of course. Also, thoughts on wireless transmitters?

@Youthman 7 ай бұрын

MiniDSP does a lot more than Audyssey can. If you can get a flat frequency response with Audyssey, then you don’t need a miniDSP. The only way to know would be to take measurements using something like a UMIk-1 and REW

@williammay8413 Жыл бұрын

I never have done the bass crawl, I used my ARC setting and it did all the work for me ( genesis ) by Anthem .

@cllemzsamvchelsea Жыл бұрын

helpful. But Avr calibration like Dirac room correction also works

@mk1mcqueen277 Жыл бұрын

Thanks Michael great video like always. I have a question Michael I have a svs pb 3000 subwofer and I want to ad a svs pb4000 16 ultra. you think it's possible to do a mix if I bring down the volume down on the 16 to close match the pb 3000. Thanks and have a blessed day.

@Youthman Жыл бұрын

Absolutely nothing wrong with mixing different size subwoofers. I just recommend keeping them all sealed or all ported and not mixing the two.

@turboboost99 6 ай бұрын

What practically everyone (it seems) doesn't understand is that you have to take HEIGHT considerations into account when doing the subwoofer crawl. That is another reason it never works well. You can't simply plop your sub in your listening chair -- you have to place it AT EAR HEIGHT. Inches matter! Room modes are 3-dimensional, not 2-D, and height modes are just as problematic as length and width modes. Accordingly, you need to realize that optimal subwoofer placement, regardless of whether you use measurements or your ears, may require elevating your subs off the floor, perhaps even several feet. The flattest response may actually be hanging your sub 3 feet over your head, which of course is impractical for most people. The point is, don't make the mistake of assuming that placing your sub on the floor is the only option. For more info on room modes, which are in 3 dimensions, not 2, read the works of the world's foremost expert on psychoacoustics, Dr. Floyd Toole.

@TheBassallyear100 4 ай бұрын

i nominate that HSU Research should rent out the ULS-15 MK2 specifically for this reason. it's +/- 1dB from 20hz to 160hz in its EQ1 setting and small and light enough to place most anywhere at 18" cube enclosure.

@China.zhongguomeng 6 ай бұрын

Can I still use the same method if I have two or more subwoofers?

@jacoblynch9862 Жыл бұрын

I personally in my opinion solved all these problems. I just placing my subwoofer directly behind my chair now I understand not everyone can do this. I do have a dedicated bedroom that I have just for my small home theater usage. It is a smaller bedroom and I never had a problem with the deep deep base what I did have a problem was anything around 60 Hz or higher Now I no longer have those problems in my opinion placing it near field kind of gets rid of the room problem. The room has less effect on the overall output now like I said, I know everyone cannot do this and I completely understand but this has been my experience.

@stevenshelp1107 Жыл бұрын

Hey @Youthman do you know if you'll be receiving a new klipsch subwoofer to review? I'm so eager to see how they fare.

@Youthman Жыл бұрын

More than likely. I haven’t requested one yet as I’m trying to get through the many products I currently have in for review.

@bigsofty1977 4 ай бұрын

Can you sink your bass shakers and rooms subs so they hit at the same time? I have a 7.2.4 set up with bass shakers on the seats. To accommodate 2 subs and 5 shakers would I need to buy 2 mini Dsp's?

@Youthman 4 ай бұрын

Yes, you absolutely will want to do that. If you don’t, it’s going to distract you from what’s going on on screen because your shakers and your subwoofers will not be aligned aligned.

@carlosaponte44 Жыл бұрын

I have a JBL Synthesis with independent sub inputs. It has Dirac w/full EQ and Bass Management...Do I even need a mini dsp?

@charlesc1426 Жыл бұрын

Great info. I think the crawl is more geared to the very new, basic setups. If you had 1K for your whole system, it would be a more effective tool. That sub would be very small. With larger speakers, most of us can't really move them anywhere in room anyways. I know I'm really pushing the "wife acceptance factor" as it is. I'm going the look into the 2X4 mini dsp from your advice here. Thanks! BTW, I believe I have one of your 15 Klipsch subs from a while back. Got it from a guy in Wesley Chapel, said it was from you:)

@Youthman Жыл бұрын

I would have no problem if the Subwoofer Crawl was promoted on websites, Facebook groups, and forums as a starting point or for a very simple set up. Unfortunately, that’s not the case we are “taught” that’s all you need to do which isn’t accurate. That is too funny regarding the sub Charles. What subwoofer did you buy?

@charlesc1426 Жыл бұрын

@@Youthman R 115sw or SPL15, I have one of each. I think it was the RSW. Guy had Cornwalls in a 2 channel setup. Had a defective amp which I replaced successfully with the speaker exchange in Tampa.

@wktek48 Жыл бұрын

😂 great video. My sub line is a complete straight line in audessye multieq app, is that good?

@frankthetankricard Жыл бұрын

Time alignment is great for setting up your main listening position but what about the other seats? How does it work in large cinemas where listeners are scattered over a large area?

@Youthman Жыл бұрын

Often times when you attempt to perfectly EQ for one position, it’s at the detriment of the other seats. Sometimes less is more.

@rayking507 Жыл бұрын

I think the biggest flaw in subwoofer crawl is that the subwoofer placement and where it’s facing is not mimicking your final placement after the crawl as the subwoofer is placed way high on the seat so there for it really is not giving you accurate/realistic sound.

@ziqfriq Жыл бұрын

Sure, using your ears alone on program material or single tones is not likely to result in the optimum overall setup. But it's not a case of either-or. The reciprocity trick still works. You can put your sub at your listening position and move your calibration microphone around the room. If your sub is big and heavy, it's all the more convenient. It may be inconvenient to elevate the sub to ear level at your listening position, but you can compensate by having the microphone at ear level, instead of crawling on the floor with it. If you're a super HT geek like Youthman and have theater seats bolted to your floor then, OK, it may be more trouble than it's worth. But if you have just a living room setup like me the reciprocity trick works fine. I just have to move the sofa out of the way and put the sub there.

@pedroortiz9744 Жыл бұрын

Amazing old school youthman videos!!!!! Miss them....

@Youthman Жыл бұрын

I’m still trying to figure out what an old-school youthman video is. I’ve been doing the same thing for five years. Home Theater tips, tours and reviews. Over the past year, I have added to that podcast and podcast clips.

@RyanDabrowskiBoilerUp Жыл бұрын

Hey Youthman, I just wanted to ask you, is getting 4 sub woofers worth it? Right now I have 2 PB-3000’s, which I think works out well… but I could always use more bass, so I am trying to figure out if I should spend some more money, to get 2 more sub woofers, to try and get that physical bass impact, that I think I am trying to get to.

@Youthman Жыл бұрын

Do you have a calibrated mic and REW? If not, I would start there because you may find that your subwoofers are fighting against each other. I just need to be dialed in to provide you with that tactile bass.

@RyanDabrowskiBoilerUp Жыл бұрын

@@Youthman no I have not calibrated my system beyond just using the software that comes with the Denon or Audacy, but I am thinking about buying the license, for the bass management I can buy through my Denon AVR, the A1H.. but if you think REW is fine, I just need to buy a better microphone, then I will consider doing that as well, or maybe instead of buying the software upgrade for my Denon to get Dirac…

@Av-ss8yw Жыл бұрын

That crawl is intended for music listeners not home theater. The types of listening conditions are different. Music is lively with the room and type of speakers for image. Theater room is more favored under controlled environments and is geared toward impact more than realistic lively image with placement that is subtle for constant listening as opposed to sporadic sounds that are occasional. Therefore that method is a start under practical conditions, but was not intended really for home theater. Home theater is more calculated for consistensy from home thearter to home theater ideally calibrating close to even levels/standards speaker to speaker. Music listening is more a feel, based off of what the room is giving similar to a music hall, arena club, etc. It's there to compliment what is being provided. Therefore caters a little more for enjoyment and favoring tweaks that are pleasing to the ear. The conditions change and are not absolute like in a movie theater. Therefore the set up should be handled differently. Although there are some parallels, you can't expect to have or use the same calibration for different conditions just because it's involving speakers. Hence why THX systems were great as they were not ideal for music, nor is it set up the same as music systems. They are great in their own lane, but require differnt rules/ methods of set up for differnt purposes. You will need some common ground to make a living room suitable for each purpose of listening to music and enjoying movies. One method/way may seem silly or useless for the other, but maybe a part of what makes or breaks the other.

@andrewrobinsonreviews Жыл бұрын

Michael, great and informative video, but I think you're downplaying how the "crawl" is meant as a starting point and not as the end all be all. First off, not every room has four walls or is symmetrical like the diagrams you show from GIK Acoustics, which in turn means that users will have to get more creative as it relates to placement. But I'm getting ahead of myself. To your first point, just because a subwoofer is heavy doesn't negate the effectiveness of placing it in your primary listening area and walking your room (you don't have to literally crawl). Sure, it's inconvenient and may keep folks from doing the crawl, but it would work the same as if your sub is smaller or more manageable. Your second point about the crawl being subjective isn't wrong either, but that doesn't mean it can't be a good starting point. I too promote setting up your subs using measurements in the end, but the whole point of the "crawl" is to find a handful of suitable starting points to then drill down your setup and your settings --not to set it and forget it. Again, with irregular rooms, placement can vary wildly. For example, two of the "best" locations for subwoofers (according to this video and examples) in MY room are two of the worst --truly. In those locations I have dips in my bass response deeper than the Mariana's trench. But doing the "crawl" when I moved to my new home helped me to locate two or three additional spots in my room that could work, wouldn't you know it, subjective as it may have been, two of the three are pretty ideal. I later confirmed them with measurements. Your third point about frequency response or the frequency response of your main speakers is pretty much it's own video and honestly has nothing to do with subwoofers or their placement because you should get that right first before worrying at all about bass. In my room, my left speaker has a sizable dip right at 40Hz (assuming the speaker can play that low). I have learned to work around this dip by feathering in my subs to cover for it. I leave my left speaker in that space, because from 40Hz on up, most speakers measure linear in that spot --but I know this because I measured dozens of positions in my room prior to settling on the layout of my speakers and furniture. The fourth point having to do with multiple subs isn't quite accurate either --especially if you have an irregular room. Because doing the crawl may allow you to locate multiple locations with which to at least start from. One cannot make the assumption that everyone's room is symmetrical. Again, not saying the crawl is a set it and forget it solution, but it's a jumping off point that is free to try and when used in conjunction with auto room correction like Audyssey or DIRAC can be enough for most people. As for the last point about looking silly...everything about this hobby to a certain extent is silly. The fact that two grown men can playfully argue over the "best" way to setup or place a subwoofer is, by its very nature silly 😉. But the threat or promise of looking like an idiot shouldn't put someone off trying a technique that can honestly work as a jumping off point. As for the measurement tools and methods, that's all something people should do, but I don't think it's a one solution fits all situation to shame the "crawl" when it can actually be helpful as a general jumping off point. Just my 2 cents. Keep up the great work, always look forward to your videos. Regards, Andrew

@HomeTheaterGamer Жыл бұрын

I don’t know who this Andrew guy is, but he seems to know his home theater stuff and makes some valid points. He should consider starting a KZfaq channel. I think he would do well. 😋

@LifeofBliss Жыл бұрын

I'll be damned if I'm going to look silly crawling around my room!! Now if you'll excuse me, my daughter is asking for a pony ride... 🐴🫏 😉

@patrickmoodley6619 Жыл бұрын

Well said, Andrew. Would like to add that the sub crawl works best to narrow down the placement in a single sub setup from a handful of possible positions where you can physically place your subwoofer in your HT space and is not meant for situations where you have multiple subs. It is also ideal to make use of a frequency sweep instead of music as what you are wanting to hear is an even response when doing the crawl and music with only a few low frequency notes would not be able to do that. Enjoy watching both your channels, keep it up.

@Youthman Жыл бұрын

Hey Andrew, The crawl might be a good starting point, but most online publications, Facebook groups and forums put a lot of emphasis on the sub crawl and make it sound like that's all you need. That's simply not accurate and the video is an attempt to share that there is a much better way to achieve a smooth bass response. You mention the sub crawl isn't really a crawl, yet even well established sub manufacturers state and online publications promote the opposite. "Keep your head at/near knee level while listening (hence the term ‘subwoofer crawl’)" - SVS "Now get on your hands and knees and pay homage to the subwoofer (just kidding). Seriously, for the next part of this set-up, prepare to do some crawling (this is the part that could get you committed, but its all worth it!)" - Audioholics "Crawl around in places where you are able to place the subwoofer, and find the location where the sound has no audible volume boosts or dips. " - AV Gadgets Regarding subwoofer weight, it's the difficulty of moving it around (I do that anyways). Many of my subscribers (including me) have massively large subwoofers that physically do not fit in a seat. In my case, I would need to disassemble my theater seats (which is not practical. I agree the sub crawl could be a descent starting point. My main concern is this is not what is being conveyed online. It's inferred that "this is enough" which is not true if you are looking to get the most out your subwoofers. The point of the video is not to "shame the crawl" but to merely point out that it has many flaws and provide a better solution. At the end of the day, we all choose what we feel works best for our own setup. Some use room correction to set levels, while others use their ear, an SPL meter app on their phone, a dedicated SPL meter or a calibrated mic and REW. There's never "the only way", I'm simply stating the sub crawl isn't as amazing as many claim it to be. Have a blessed week

@jacoblynch9862 Жыл бұрын

I would like to add I think number two is the most important and proper microphone and software can hear better than you can

@Youthman Жыл бұрын

100%

@bingdong8571 Жыл бұрын

When you find a dead spot just stitch another sub there and you also get more bass. Im on number 8. Maybe 2 or 3 more and ill be happy. I really like that video where the guy had marty subs in his ceiling. Thanks for the video

@peteruckerjr Жыл бұрын

What is the distance (12 feet ) between screen and front seat for the End Game 11.4.6 theater?

@slick1979uk1 Жыл бұрын

I've seen so many different ways to place a subwoofer... it's crazy. I also just saw an article saying to keep all sides of the box at least 8 inches away from walls. Do you agree?

@Youthman Жыл бұрын

I’ve never heard a specific measurement distance from the wall, but I typically do not placed him directly up against the wall

@welderfixer Жыл бұрын

Best use of money and time is to save up and attempt hire Brad to use REW to fix my set-up. 👍😎👍

@theuvcrew2531 Жыл бұрын

A somewhat related question; the general advice is to use sub-woofers of the same type when going multi-sub. But with miniDSP, wherein you can fine-tune them individually, would it make mixing subs a possibility?

@12P14D22C Жыл бұрын

A possibility,sure. But still not recommended. The minidsp is a small dsp and will have severe problems to phase align the subs.

@theuvcrew2531 Жыл бұрын

@@12P14D22C Thanks for the information; very pertinent.

@Youthman Жыл бұрын

Mixing sealed and ported is difficult. I recommend sticking with one or the other.

@theuvcrew2531 Жыл бұрын

@@Youthman So if I were to stick to ported, would it be okay even if the 3rd/4th sub I add is a different model? Or would it still just be better to avoid mixing?

@Youthman Жыл бұрын

There’s nothing wrong with mixing brands or size of drivers, it’s just easier to calibrate if they’re all identical

@MattCiprianoMusic Жыл бұрын

I've never heard of the Sub Crawl. Sounds like it kinda works. I really like the way that you explained why it is not the best way to place a sub. Love the suggestions. Great video once again Mike!

@Youthman Жыл бұрын

Thanks Matt. It’s an old technique that continues to get promoted.

@markroles7304 Жыл бұрын

The Sub crawl is also flawed if you have a large SOUTH END OF A NORTH BOUND MOOSE of a body. For that part of your body would absorb a lot of bass. It does tickle you though.

@04GEEDOGG Жыл бұрын

I have the x3800h and it has 4 individual sub outputs would I need the minidsp 2x4hd or just REW with the umik one? Thanks

@Youthman Жыл бұрын

I have not used an AVR with four subwoofer outs yet to know how well it timelines and EQ is the subwoofers. It might work out great I would recommend picking up a calibrated microphone and learning to take basic frequency response measurements of your subwoofers, then see if you need how many DSP to fix any issues

@frankvee Жыл бұрын

Only way to get optimal results with subs is taking measurements. Glad you made a video about this because the sub crawl method is still circling around the Internet, and it’s really not a good method.

@Youthman Жыл бұрын

Thanks Frank. It’s literally everywhere even looking on major audio websites and even many sub manufacturers still recommend it to this day.

@davidratchford667 11 ай бұрын

@Youthman, sorry that this isn’t about the “Sub Crawl” but just curious, what are your chairs?

@Youthman 11 ай бұрын

No worries. I have Valencia Tuscany Ultimate Luxury in front and Oslo Ultimate Luxury in the rear. Search those models on my channel for reviews of them

@davidratchford667 11 ай бұрын

@Youthman, thank you for your reply! Love the look of them!

@Youthman 11 ай бұрын

Thanks David hopefully the videos are helpful if you have any questions feel free to reach out

@wktek48 Жыл бұрын

Just bought a SVS 2000 SB Pro, did audessey multieq, no crawling here 😂

@sog5959 Жыл бұрын

if you look at the a software read out to think you have the right setting then you accept it right, going by the readings. when its all about how it sounds and your ears do that, some people like boomy bass some like crisp bass and some like it thumping in you chest bass, so its up to you to your hearing how you set your system up.

@Youthman Жыл бұрын

There are definitely preferences when it comes to the amount of bass that we prefer, but having peaks and nulls in your response is not good for anyone’s preference. I’m not sure what crisp bass sounds like.

@justinlaird Жыл бұрын

Great video Mike, I’d even add another one personally. The ideal spot might be right in the center of your room, or in some absolutely absurd position where the bass might sound great, but it’s completely impractical.

@Youthman Жыл бұрын

For sure!

@philnicol8072 Жыл бұрын

AHHH! - The subwoofer crawl. Been doing it for 15 years! It hurts! Then every movie soundtrack or music source has it's own unique bass mix! Bass likes to shoot off in a diagonal direction. ☹

@janthomassrensen1065 Жыл бұрын

Only reason I never got into the MiniDsp world: It doens´t have Xlr connections that I use for both of my M&K subs. I have a Marantz 8805 pre-amp and use the Audyssey MultiqX to room-eq using my PC. It does wonders on the bass as well. I remember an interview with the head of Trinnov where he spoke against the MiniDsp. Adding another device in the chains that adds noise I believe was his words. All sub management should be handled at the processor end , not by adding extra devices. Those were his thoughts. And also my rule of thumb. Just my thoughts, I could be wrong who knows :-)

@Youthman Жыл бұрын

If the miniDSP adds noise, you’ll never hear it.

@janthomassrensen1065 Жыл бұрын

@@Youthman That may be true. But still, it´s better to do all the bass correction in the digital domain on your processor, rather than adding another analogue device down the chain. Not all processores have this option though

@Hal2audio Жыл бұрын

While some of your views have merit,I feel you are discounting the benefits of the crawl. First of all most people do not have the monster size subs that you have and thus easier to place in the sitting position. 2) people will usually listen to many ranges of music/ movies scenes that allowing for multiple freq to be heard . My first experience with placing a sub was terrible I thought the sub was broken. As a novice I found the concept very helpful in hearing what the sub effect were in different positions.

@jcameron2937 Жыл бұрын

the sub crawl should be a dance move lol

@Youthman Жыл бұрын

🤣🤣🤣

@bumblecat23 Жыл бұрын

Yup that is always what I thought

@keepingupwiththejones2933 Жыл бұрын

I was all ready to fight Michael and then he proceeded to make complete sense for 15 minutes. So disappointing 🤣😂

@Youthman Жыл бұрын

🤣🤣🤣

@jarodreddig63 Жыл бұрын

I’m in complete agreement. It’s an archaic method.

@Youthman Жыл бұрын

This 👆👆👆

@Jessersadler Жыл бұрын

all audio is subjective. . . just like beauty.

@lawrence09151 Жыл бұрын

Yea it’s bizarre it’s still being encouraged.

@dicmccoy Жыл бұрын

What if you replaced your ears with a calibrated mic and using a RTA and a custom tone generator playing pink noise in your bass region?

@Youthman Жыл бұрын

That would be a more scientific approach that could work as long as your subwoofers are small enough to fit in your seat. But once again, what happens when you have multiple subwoofers. There’s still flaws with that approach.

@dicmccoy Жыл бұрын

@@Youthman Very true. I would have the mic setup in my MLP and still use the pink noise in the custom tone generator and RTA to get the subs placed properly and get their levels, crossover and variable phase control dialed in. I found it a more fluid and easy experience over taking sine sweep measurements over and over and over. You just have to make sure you have the correct settings for the RTA and I still take sine sweep measurement but after I'm done with each sub. For me, I do 2.2 so I start with my mains and get them placed properly then I start with the first sub and then introduce 2nd sub and the first subs and mains are still going. The thing with running 2 or more subs is making sure everything is playing nice with each other. I found in my room, I had to stay away from corners with the subs. No matter what I did with the variable phase, I had some crazy cancelation issues. And that's the thing I love about this, what works in one room, can be the complete opposite in another. There's no right or wrong and we're all here to learn from one another.

@vlax543 8 ай бұрын

Life is not about calculation but personal taste

@garyharper2943 Жыл бұрын

I’m to old to crawl around the floor, stuck it in the middle under the screen and forgot about it.

@pjcdm Жыл бұрын

I think it is best to go to the theatre and then discuss things, if the movie had anything that was worth discussing, that is.

@michaelwilliams4086 Жыл бұрын

Perhaps just use the subwoofer crawl to avoid the disastrously bad locations for subwoofers on 2 channel systems without DSP?

@Youthman Жыл бұрын

I could see that. I don’t believe it’s useless, I just think there’s better ways using measurements.

@bigchimpin4215 Жыл бұрын

The sub crawl is for sure rudimentary, but I don’t really think it’s for folks who are putting thousands of dollars into their subs. At that point the people in question should have already invested in a calibrated microphone and a software of their choosing. This is especially important with higher outputs because of how much the lower ranges interact with the listening space. If you’re the average joe who just bought a budget minded 12 inch I think it’s okay recommend the sub crawl. No sense in spending money on a mic and software that costs more than your sub. If someone were to have a 1000 dollar subwoofer budget I’d wholly recommend them buying the best sub they can for the money and using the sub crawl as their placement guide instead of spending money on equipment for measurements.

@theopszone6775 Жыл бұрын

I always thought it was stupid to do. Never did it, never going to do it.

@victorpulos823 Жыл бұрын

Does this also work in wall subs?

@Youthman Жыл бұрын

If you place an in-wall sub in your listening position, most do not have a back box so you won’t get any bass due to the back wave cancelling the front wave.

@deankim6687 Жыл бұрын

I have 4 identical subs and still have room modes.

@jpitt916 Жыл бұрын

Oh it's definitely flawed. But it's good enough for the average person, I'd say. I bet you're happy you had that little Klipsch to demo this! haha

@Youthman Жыл бұрын

I agree I think it is of some use. I just think there’s better methods out there.

@aliframadhan1202 6 ай бұрын

I suggest playing the song Bad Guy by Billie Eilish on loop while doing the sub crawl 😂

@TestTypeG Жыл бұрын

Completely agree. I always say that if you don't do measurements with a mic, you are completely blind in what you are doing when it comes to a sub. Doing a sub crawl is bad advice, you have no way of knowing what the frequency response is with just your ears. Taking measurements is the only way to do it. It's really not that expensive to buy a UMIK-1.

@cedlang6654 Жыл бұрын

Must be new to the game, I never heard of that haha! 🎉

@Youthman Жыл бұрын

Absolutely nothing wrong with that. I learn something new every day.

@DerekBove Жыл бұрын

Reason #5 😂 - so true!!

@Youthman Жыл бұрын

🤣🤣🤣

@Killmode29 Жыл бұрын

Imagine taking some Ultimax 18” and putting them in your seating position? 😂

@tmomedrano Жыл бұрын

say i get the subwoofer "perfect" but I liked the sound of my room using the subcrawl better? how do I know if what im hearing is correct? go to the net and let people tell me how to feel. LOL

@Youthman Жыл бұрын

Measurements will tell you if you have a flat frequency response. If you have massive peaks and bulls, that’s not correct.

@velocci6666 Жыл бұрын

It would be #5 for me. My wife would think im crazy for sure

@mcarr416ix Жыл бұрын

The subwoofer crawl isn't supposed to be a replacement for actual measurements. This video is kind of silly in my opinion. It's not supposed to get you a perfectly measured even response from your subwoofer. It's just a "dirty" quick method to find a placement that sounds pleasing to your ears.

@Youthman Жыл бұрын

You and I both understand that, but major publications, forums, and Facebook group do not promote it as such.

@Youthman Жыл бұрын

Not sure how the video can be silly if I’m providing a better method.

@mcarr416ix Жыл бұрын

@@Youthman fair enough, maybe a bit overboard to call the video silly - I do appreciate the content so apologies if they can't across as a bit brash. There's no replacement for actual measurements. The subwoofer crawl isn't going to get you a perfect response, but I wouldn't totally discount it as an option for people without proper measuring equipment that are just looking for a pleasing sound in the living room.

@grandpixel 4 ай бұрын

I have to disagree with your conclusion and your reasons. 1. You don't have to use the same subwoofer for the crawl that you'll be using for listening. Yes it needs to play nearly as deep in order to measure those frequencies, but you are largely (ha) measuring the room and not the subwoofer. So take a sub that fits in the chair, and measure. Also I might add, setting up a theater is a ton of work in the first place, so I don't really see moving a chair as a big deal. 2. It's not subjective if you are measuring and using REW. I would never crawl around the room and listen by ear. You're right, that's pointless, but that doesn't mean the subwoofer crawl doesn't work well. Use a mic and measure. 3. See 2. 4. Measure each position and use MSO software. It will tell you the best combination of sub positions AND delay for each sub. 5. :\

@Youthman 4 ай бұрын

If someone is willing to use the subwoofer crawl in combination with measurements, I’m all for that. But most that teach the subwoofer crawl do not mention anything about taking measurements. That’s what I find is flawed.

@michaelwyckoff7593 Жыл бұрын

Hello Michael

@vanwilliams4028 6 ай бұрын

Makes you look silly. LMAO

@ameusburger75 Жыл бұрын

I never used the crawl.

@joepelletier5381 Жыл бұрын

I think it's mostly important to note who the subwoofer crawl is for. I've got about 10 friends with subwoofers and only 1 with one worth more than 200 bucks. If you know someone hooking up a soundbars w/ sub or a home theater in a box, maybe it's their first home theater and it's a 200$ Klipsch, they aren't going to buy a 100$ mic, the sub crawl is just the thing.👍👍 I hope everyone messing with DSP and 4 figure subs has found better ways to place their subs at that point, but the concept is probably oversold.

@Youthman Жыл бұрын

I can definitely see a valid point there, Joe. I guess my frustration is when online publications and even Subwoofer manufactures make it seem like that is the best way to figure out where to place your subwoofers I’m just pointing out the concept has many flaws.

@joepelletier5381 Жыл бұрын

@@Youthman I'm with you youthman, people really need to starting adding caveats. A beginner way, definitely not the "best" way

@Youthman Жыл бұрын

That would be a much better approach in my opinion

@guyo83 Жыл бұрын

The reason sub crawl is bull shit is because the sound that propagates from the sub in your listening position will not be 1:1 when you place it in the "sweet spot" location, that's just not how sound works. If you discover your "sweet spot" is the corner of the room, what the hell makes anyone think the sound waves emitting from the center of your room will respond the same way when placed between two walls? THIS is the reason sub crawl is nonsense.

@Titan7170 Жыл бұрын

With the subs that big would there even be a spot where there wasnt any bass😅

@Youthman Жыл бұрын

Absolutely

@wrthomas69 Жыл бұрын

absolutely, it's called a NULL, caused by standing waves.

@Titan7170 Жыл бұрын

@@Youthman maybe under your seats 😅 youd figure the subs would overpower any dips in frequency

@Youthman Жыл бұрын

Unfortunately, it’s not about power. It’s about how those bass waves interact with your room and other Subwoofers.

@Titan7170 Жыл бұрын

@@Youthman so ive seen you say adding a second sub can eliminate a null in a room.... So why doesnt it apply to this situaltion with so many subs?

@michaelslocumbsr.2286 Жыл бұрын

Lol! Youthman! This doesn't apply if you have experience or have JTR Syndrome...Lol But, it also started for One to Two Sub's...

@Youthman Жыл бұрын

Just curious, how experience will allow you to determine if you have a completely flat frequency response using only the sub crawl. It’s not possibleZ As I explained in the video, it is still flawed, even if you only have one subwoofer.

@michaelslocumbsr.2286 Жыл бұрын

@@Youthman I'm with you Youthman! I meant experience with JTR speakers... Bottom line, everyone has their own perception or flavor for what they're expecting hear...

@Youthman Жыл бұрын

Even with JTR Subwoofers, without taking measurements, you still would be unaware of peaks and nulls in your frequency response.

@michaelslocumbsr.2286 Жыл бұрын

@@Youthman Yes sir! It's all about the numbers... I've met a few others who don't measure at all, while continue to make adjustments manually. See you at MWave...Let some explain the subwoofer crawl and prove to us how it works...

@Youthman Жыл бұрын

I’m definitely excited for MWAVE and am looking forward to hanging out with you.