Cloud in rebirth only remembers Zack as a friend, nothing more, which means he still is oblivious to what happened in Nibelheim.

I think the real true good ending that we're building towards is an ending where Zack and Roche somehow survive and live to join Strife Delivery Service so they can ride around on Motorcycles with Cloud.

The true ending is the friends we made along the way

love the part seal talks about the despair mechanic. broden and roche fell to despair which accelerates degradation. would explain why zach wouldnt fall to degradation either since the man never feels despair lol

I think combining Aerith’s death with the life stream plot twist is absolutely genius because as baby seal said; people tend to remember the most iconic “twist” in FF7 to be Aerith’s death, however, the devs (and a good section of the fandom) believe the “real” twist of FF7 to be the life stream twist. Having Cloud realize that Aerith is really dead during the life stream twist would be absolutely incredible. It combines the two most iconic scenes in the game.

I did not know that Seruf was Rufus. The whole Seruf plotline was entirely unintelligible to me until just now. Now it starts to make sense.

Here is my 2 cents. From the evidence given to us in the last two chapters, here's what I can discern: 1. Aerith is DEAD........BUT only in the 'rebirth' timeline. I think either the Aerith of the 'rebirth' timeline, faded/died at the end of her and Cloud's battle with Sephiorth leaving her AU self OR possibly jumped into her AU self similar to how Cloud did so in the earlier chapter. It's why her AU self fell asleep and then 'woke up' after the battle. Because whatever the F happened here, was something Sephiorth wasn't expected to happen with Aerith. It's the first time he's been seemingly surprised during this whole saga. 2. While I initially believed she was appearing to Cloud as a 'force ghost' after reviewing everything that happened I do not believe that is the case. I think there is a split in the timeline resulting in some version of her living but it is now separate from the 'rebirth' timeline and due to reasons (possibly Cloud being behind the whisper wall, holding the hollow materia, or the fact he traveled dimensions before) Cloud can now perceive things others can't. There is no guarantee she may rejoin Cloud/the party later as the foreshadowing does implicate she and Cloud will still be 'separated' if not by death then by dimensions/worlds by the end of everything. 3. Cloud is not 'delusional' in the general sense BUT I think that due to his situation he may feel he IS delusional. If Aerith is existing on another timeline, it's implied heavily that Cloud doesn't seem to recognize it and/or doesn't seem to grasp he's seeing things others can't. The developers stated in interviews that for Cloud's big twist coming up, it would be less of 'unreliable narrator' and more 'unreliable world'. Which makes me think that Cloud will not be 'crazy' but the world will be crazy with the multiverse shenanigans going on which will cause all sorts of problems for him.

at this point people are just here for the ride

I agree with babyseal on the fact that Sephiroth pushed Cloud in the temple. But I believe Sephiroth also allowed Cloud to “save Aerith” to make him go even crazier when the northern crater moment will come. No doubt the Aerith Cloud’s seeing is the real her trying to help him but I still think it’s all Sephiroth plan to mess with him.

I feel that Sephiroth appearing as Glenn doesn't fit his style. But Jenova appearing as Glenn would totally fit. Despite Jenova pretty much not having a character at this point.

Cant wait to hear what sleepezi will say

Truly fascinating conversation and I’ve still got lots to listen to. Well done to both of you

Great watch. Thank you both.

I think it's a multiverse more or less essentially purely on a technicality. I think "multiple worlds" within the lifestream are the, as Aerith tries to dumb it down for us, "dreams" or hopes, desires, grief, and despair, made manifest. I think those are "worlds" in a sense, but more in service of character exploration than of an actual multiverse plot. Sephiroth's "reunion" of worlds is functionally the same as his plan in the OG. Use meteor to shatter the world, then have the despair (poisoned lifestream dreams/world/etc.) all converge in one point for his use, the same way he absorbed the whispers present at the end of Remake.

I didn’t like the ending at first but the more I think about it I think it’s pretty dope! Part 3 will show what really happened not what Cloud thought he saw!

This is the best conversation I have heard of the game

i have no idea what they'll do with aerith part 3 but she will probably have a lot more screentime than she had originally that's for sure. that said, i think it's interesting how they've been setting up a "reunion" not only between worlds since the remake part 1 but more specifically a reunion between cloud and aerith, there's a lot of little hints sprinkled throughout both games that are easy to miss which leads me to believe in an alternate world/timeline aerith being alive and reuniting with the crew (or just cloud) at some point in part 3. i personally think an alternate timeline aerith being alive seems like a valid theory otherwise all of this foreshadowing about her reuniting with cloud after being separated from him and the crew seems kind of pointless. the devs themselves asked us to pay attention to the loveless play and the song "no promises to keep" and how they're all kind of interconnected and relevant to the story... the loveless play basically ends with the princess and the knight being separated as the knight departs but the knight tells her that she doesn't need to promise she'll wait as he knows he will find her there; similar things are said in aerith's song that she wrote "no promises to keep" where she basically talks about wanting to meet cloud again after being separated from him and knowing that he will "find her" and hoping that they could meet again, maybe "in their street" (loveless street where they first met) or "at their place" (the church that they referred to as their spot in the dream date) ... rebirth ends with cloud and the party being separated from aerith and despite the english localization having cloud and aerith make a promise to each other in the end, in the japanese version they don't make any promises to each other, they just tell each other their plans before being separated and they answer with "sure/certainly" instead of "promise" which makes a lot more sense with "no promises await at journey's end" and also the theme song "no promises to keep". there's a lot more foreshadowing than that but those elements alone to me kind of makes me think that there's a possibility of an alternate aerith being alive somewhere due to cloud blocking sephiroth's sword and at some point in part 3 she will reunite with the whole party or at least with cloud... if she were just dead in all worlds it wouldn't make much sense for them to foreshadow and hint at a reunion between them in my opinion, especially since the hints have been there since remake part 1 and they've been kind of consistent with it... sleepezi has made a lot of the same connections on his most recent video that he dropped before rebirth released and it's pretty interesting how many things he got right before he even played the game! i think there's a lot of hidden symbolism/foreshadow that it's easy to miss. she could still end up dead by the end of part 3 for sure but i think she'll have a bigger role to play in part 3 than she had originally. thanks for the discussion though! you guys made some interesting points even if i don't necessarily agree with all of your interpretations of the scenes.

keep these discussions coming! These discussions came in clutch during the pandemic for me

Bruh!!! Arith did the Final Fantasy 10 sending !!!!😮. At the temple

I’ve been waiting for this!!

I'm less convinced now that it's timelines or different realities, more that it's Lifestream weirdness and Sephiroth is harnessing it to completely break Cloud. They are really leaning into Cloud's perception of things actually. It makes having Aerith's death scene be confusing rather than sad make a bit more sense thematically. We are experiencing that moment solely as Cloud, not as a separate observer like in the OG, they want the player to feel what Cloud feels. Interesting spin on it and very ballsy if that's true, I can see why the team were nervous. Potential for some really good payoff.

Judging by Trophy data. Out of 100% players who started the game up, 89% of players beat Chapter 1 and 10.6% of players saw the ending as of yesterday

Great video, keep the rebirth stuff coming its amazing. Even these longer ones are great

Love hearing you both

Was nice listening to your guys' takes on it, thanks! The bit about everyone thinking part three will be called Reunion made me laugh so much. There's a few things about the ending cinematography that I still think are purposefully made to go either way like Babyseal mentioned. They've wrote it in a way where they can walk it back, but we'll get confirmation when it's out and only then of course. I'm calling it here, next part is called Reclaim. There's multiple instances of ambient NPC conversation using claim and reclaim as specific language (one notably in the Kalm bar), the preorder bonus was also the Reclaimant Choker, it works on several layers thematically and still retains the two syllable naming convention. It's plain as day y'all, they always make this stuff clear when you do the digging which is so much fun!

Just catching up to this conversation after rolling credits a few days ago. What a wonderful convo, and I absolutely agree about the power of friendship discussion. One specific thing that really got me was Cloud being there for Barrett when he was going through it. This game was so wonderful, and caught me off guard so many times in so many moments that were so powerful and emotional. I really enjoyed a ton in this game.

Loved this discussion guys, thank you for sharing your thoughts :) Always the best!

I wrote a whole dissertation here: 47:05 It's actually subbed in French, Aerith says: "Everything will be alright" to Tifa - the part we can't hear. 47:26 Aerith in Japanese just says: "This Materia saves the world" - there is no specific reference to it being about saving Cloud. It doesn't disprove the theory though. I think SENA dropped the ball HARD this time around with the translations in a lot of places, too much to type out here, the most egregious being "promise." -> *NPTK plays*. Just my take but I believe Aerith's "arigatou" is the same contextually as the infamous Tidus/Yuna thank-you/love confession, Aerith's obligation as a Cetra giving her "Thank-you" in R2.14 so much weight that it's essentially a love confession in Japanese - which Cloud notably reacts to with a shocked face. First time I'm going to disagree with Babyseal but it's still early days for us all in the wait for R3 so I might come around to his theory. Personally, even if Aerith is dead again, I don't see any outcome that would make sense to me besides a C/A "Return" (title of third game - it's gotta be) with all the cinematography + lore + musical references, it just all points to a C/A ending, it's like the game is screaming it. There's also Kitase saying that he would like a happy ending for the characters after 30 years of working on them and that can't just be discounted either. We know Cloud never stops searching for Aerith in every cameo since 1997 and if Square are trying to use the uncertainty around Aerith being alive/dead to try to emotionally hit us the same as 27 years ago then I really don't think there is any way to make it hit remotely as hard. I agree though that the specific Lifestream-green effects around Aerith fading away (like when an NPC dies) after the C/A vs S battle does line up with Babyseal's theory, but, the pink-gold/prismatic effect is also present around Cloud and Aerith during this scene and this seems to appear only something has been changed. It was Lifestream-green on the Buster Sword but then at the point of impact with the Masamune is was pink-gold/prismatic, and again pink-gold/prismatic around Aerith and Cloud on the water altar when he tells *alive* Aerith to wakeup - the party aren't shown inside this boundary either. I have no idea what to make of this. The portals Cloud passes through also show varying coloration. One type is Lifestream-green (and only appears once) and the other, pink-gold/prismatic and appears a couple of times. At the start of Ch.14 of Rebirth Cloud and Aerith have the dream-date then Cloud is pushed out with the White Materia through the flower bed in the church into a white world where Sephiroth taunts him. Afterward dismissing Sephiroth, Cloud falls through a pink-gold/prismatic portal and arrives in the forest where Aerith explains how she must go to cast Holy, then Cloud succumbs to the White Whispers holding him down and falls through a Lifestream-green portal and wakes up with the rest of the party, sans Aerith. The two portals are vastly different in color/presentation it's clearly two different things happening here. Maybe C/A have to pass through a green portal to get to this dream but we aren't shown that part, it's just the fall and then a scene transition. Interestingly, Cloud's attack Infinity's End (his highest damaging non-limit attack) has been changed (from red plasma) to match the pink-gold/prismatic effect, complete with a mini-rainbow, so it seems to indicate it's a move that is strong enough to change-fate. Fundamentally, there are two possibilities: 1. Square will try to use convoluted storytelling to make us feel like in 1997, by making the audience experience Aerith's death as if we were Cloud experiencing a hallucination. 2. Square knows they can't make us re-experience the loss of Aerith regardless of any tricks and so won't. Wouldn't it be smarter to rely on the audience knowing Cloud is losing his marbles (and therefore trusting the party's version of events over their own/Cloud's) because it's a 27 year old plot-twist and then have it actually be a revealed upon Cloud regaining his memories and original persona, that Aerith actually was saved in some form. This would keep the audience doubting Cloud and their own recollection for 70% of the game and you'd still get the doubt and isolation but it would make a happy ending possible whilst keeping the majority events the same, as has been the trend in the Remake Trilogy. My crack theory/fanfic happy ending theory: I think the endgame plot will match the Loveless play with "prisoner" Cloud returning to Aerith. Perhaps killing Sephiroth for good requires Cloud to lose all memories of him and therefore also of Aerith. Sephiroth knowing this has planned for it and therefore his appearance on Loveless St. is him linking Cloud/Aerith meeting to him, solidifying his place in Cloud's memories so Cloud will have to forget Aerith to win. It would be possible to still remember Tifa and the party because they all met Cloud initially without Sephiroth present, but he'll always remember seeing Sephiroth when he thinks of Aerith. After forgetting Aerith, sometime in the future in an epilogue, Cloud walks down Loveless St. and gets offered a yellow flower, the two being reunited. Aerith is now free to live as a normal girl, without her obligations as a Cetra, as she always wanted to be.

I believe there's a misunderstanding that a player who is unfamiliar with FF7 might be more or less confused about certain elements of the endings of these games. I don't think Zack was put in the Remake's ending with the intention of being recognized by fans (that is, OBVIOUSLY it's also meant as a plot twist for those who know the character), but rather to create mystery about his identity, foreshadowing his importance. In Rebirth, the unaware player discovers that Zack was Aerith's first love and a comrade of Cloud's, who however has no memory of him during his Flashback. In Part III, the unaware player will discover the truth, well-seeded throughout the game. We are too used to thinking like players who deeply know the lore and story of the game, so much so that we cannot see things the way they really are: will the unaware player be confused seeing Zack? Certainly! And it's intentional by design, he discovers a bit more in Part 2, and discovers the whole truth in Part 3.

Good point about there not being infinite versions of the characters and to that point, I'd disagree with the Aerith is a spirit or vision... -Aerith orchestrates Cloud giving her the white materia, so she could summon holy. -Cloud is the only one to break through the whispers to save Aerith, no one else was there. -Aerith steps through a portal to help Cloud fight Sephiroth,she doesn't just materialize, and Sephiroth even acknowledges her. -Cloud is the only one who can see the tear in the sky and Aerith, this implies to me that he can see two worlds. ...Similar to the OG, Aerith will work in summoiung Holy, however now she's doing it from her pocket reality not from the life stream. -Aerith also never got her ultimate weapon, the Princrss Guard, so she's gonna have a role in the next game. This also let's the dev's mess with us again when Aerith and her world are eventually destroyed at the end of the game... ...unless the they us multiple endings.

Going to bookmark this but looking forward to listening in the future 🙂

I finished rebirth 2 weeks ago, been patiently waiting for these discussions!!

To me the cloud zack friendship came through plenty via pure chemistry and implication. What bothered me a lot more was how dramatic aeriths death was when the game never takes the time to set up cloud and aeriths importance to each other

My only real “dislike” of the story is that it DOES seem to diminish the impact of Aerith’s death. Whether it would’ve been possible to make it truly impactful, given how many of us know it’s coming is another question. However, because it appears to clearly have something to do with the new multiverse narrative threads, I’m eager to see where they take it from here. Overall, this is a fantastic game and a genuinely impressive achievement, taking into account the size of the whole remake project.

BabySeal has some great takes. Thanks for having him on!

The title of part 3 will be Redemption. *Gackt enters the chat*

I think the 1-2 chapter expansion of Cloud and Zack’s friendship that NSP is hoping for should take place during a final revisit of the Nibelheim flashback. I wanna play through the entire thing again, but as Zack, leading up to the final sequence where we switch to Cloud and he kills Sephiroth to defend Tifa and Zack and avenge the village. Along the way they could give us more dialogue that Cloud either didn’t remember or simply repressed, that shows Zack and Cloud were in fact boys

I believe that Aerith is still alive in an alternate timeline. When Cloud block Sephiroth blade, there is a rainbow burst of color. That rainbow burst of color only happens in the game during the Zack segments of the games when he makes choices that creates new worlds, or new timelines. And yes, I believe that these are new worlds being created, Sephiroth was clear during the battle between him and zack/cloud. Sephiroth said: Just as world unite, so to can they part. I believe that when Cloud blocked Sephiroth blade a separate timeline where Aerith lives was created, but that timeline is doomed to die if it is not merged with the main one, which is why Cloud sees a crack in the sky. It is not his timeline that is in danger, but the timeline where Aerith lives that is in danger of being destroyed if it is not merged with the main one. Let's not forget that Zack can also see that crack in the sky, as well as Elmyra and all the other who lives in these doomed world. Maybe it is not just the timeline where Aerith lives that is doomed, but the og timeline where our Cloud is, and the reason why he can see the crack in the sky first is because, just like he and Aerith where able to see the whisper first he is more sensible to these things than the others. I suspect in part 3 the others will slowly become aware of the crack in the sky as well as their world is rapidly approaching it's destruction. To be fair, I believe that it is more a mixt of everything than anything else: 1: I believe that Cloud did save Aerith, and when he did a new timeline was created. The white whisper than corrected this by switching back to the original timeline where Aerith died. If you look closely, when the other arrives to see Cloud cradling Aerith body to him, the scene is from their pov, but more specifically from tifa pov. In other words, it was not from Cloud delusional pov but from hers, and you can see the blood glitching back and forth from her pov until it settles on her being dead. That is why I believe that the Aerith that put her hand on Clouds face and that wake up when Cloud ask her to is the Aerith that lives in an alternate timeline. Realise also that the white whisper are there when Cloud ask her to wake up, the whisper are NOT a product of Cloud delusions since the other can see them as well. Which mean that the multiverse is 100 percent real. 2: I firmly believe that the Aerith by the lake side (with the creepy music) might very well be just Cloud going bonkers or Jenova/Sephiroth screwing with him. It can also be him just being in complete denial of her death. 3: The final cutscene is either her alternate timeline self or simply her ghost from the lifestream. One thing is for sure, it is not just Cloud being nuts cause Red 13 senses her. In other words, I believe that what we see happening in the ending is a mixture of all these 3 things: Cloud seeing an alternate Aerith, Cloud going nuts/Jenova/Sephiroth screwing with him and Aerith from the lifestream reaching out to him. Cloud's grips on reality and his sanity is more slippery than ever. You can bet you're ass that Sephiroth is going to bank on that to drive him more insane than he ever went in the og. But just like Sephiroth lie about Cloud not really being Cloud and him being just a clone of Sephiroth was proven false, Sephiroth lie about him not saving Aerith in part 3 in order to break Cloud even worse than he did in og will also being proven false and it will most likely turn out that yes he did save a version of her living in another timeline. Let's not forget also that Kitase said in an interview that he wanted to give the character a happy ending. The multiverse concept could be the way they intend to do it. There is also the fact that many fans would be angry if they did not give the player the choice to save Aerith and give her the happy ending that they want. Many people went into Remake thinking that they would get to live that childhood dream of saving a beloved character from death. If the multiverse concept ends up being just a cheap bait and switch tactics that leads nowhere and everything was going on in Cloud's mind, I don't think this is ever going to be forgiven by the fans who had hoped to save her. They would feel lied to and they wouldn't be wrong to feel that way. The whole marketing of Rebirth was about changing fate and defying destiny. If the multiverse concept ends up going nowhere, a good chunk of SE fans will feel lied to and that is not good for business. Some fans are already talking about not buying the third game if they can't change Aerith fate in it. Had this trilogy of games been a 1:1 Remake from the get go, this would not have been a problem. But now? You don't give this much false hope to you're fan base and don't deliver...ever. This is the worst thing you can do as a business. So for the sake of profit or just to keep their fanbase satisfied I think they won't have the choice BUT to give us the option to save Aerith. Especially with Zack during the final battle screaming to Cloud: SAVE HER!.

Great discussion guys! I think the greatest misstep for me with Dyne's death is that almost immediately after it the gang has a meme fight with Palmer. Such a silly boss fight so close to his death really cheapened the impact for me. They should have let the death scene settle more.

Gilgamesh was an amazing addition. They even played the Battle on the Bridge theme. Which is FFV. He even calls on the Warriors of Light, which is the team in FFV (and FF1). That's a clear indication that there is a multiverse.

I rearranged my house listening to this. Can't say I understand ff7 rebirth any better, but my house looks nice

The most confusing scene to me was when Marlene tells Zack that aerith can’t wake up in their world because it would mean that she’s been killed by sephiroth and then it shows the flashback to when she met aerith at the bar when the plate was falling in remake. If it’s just a different timeline why does aerith have to die in one timeline to wake up in the other, kind of like Biggs did. Also how did the Marlene of that world know information from the Marlene in the other world? Also they met before we beat the arbiter of fate in remake, so aerith would’ve had to been able to see the future of that world way beforehand as well as the future of all timelines to be able to give her this information.

I still think there's going to be some sort of " rule" that says that even in different universes the fate of people is the same. This is why we see Zack face The shinra army no matter what choice he makes. It's all going to culminate with Zack and Aerith being dead in the end, however they will be reunited in the live stream so it will be a bittersweet ending

I felt very confused by the ending, which of course didn’t make for being very emotionally impactful. However, I didn’t hate it: and damn do I LOVE this game so much.

I hope they follow through with the defy fate and destiny theme remake setup and actually have Aerith and even Zack alive in the end. It would be so much more of a twist than just Cloud having a come to terms moment over something everyone already expected to likely happen anyway.

This was such a good discussion

Hi, i am from asia . Let me translate correctly what aerith said in the ending because the english one is not really accurate.i watch the ending english scene. I didnt play the whole game in english but i believe there are more weirld translation throughout the whole game. Cloud: Are you gonna be safe going back alone? Aerith: what if i say no? Cloud smiles Aerith: This is Cetra's territory. (In english she said second home) Cloud: I see (in english he said i guess) Cloud: but what if something happens? Aerith: then i will send up smoke. Cloud: got it. I wont miss it. (In english he said i will keep an eye out) the meaning is smiliar but the original japanese feels more like cloud is more determined to find and save aerith whenever aerith tells cloud she is in danger. Aerith: i will keep praying at my territory(cetra) to stop the meteor ,so cloud you have to do your best. (In japanese she said dakara cloudo gambateh, but the english aerith said "then i will the rest to you cloud" the meaning is different ,she didnt say leave the rest to cloud, she mean more like work together with cloud, while she is praying to stop the meteor, cloud has to beat sephiroth. Feels more like after she stopped the meteor ,she will be with cloud again to beat sephiroth. Cloud: i will quickly find sephiroth, and beat him. (In english he only said i will beat sephiroth.)similiar meaning, but the japanese one feels like cloud is really desperate to find and beat sephiroth asap. Aerith: you promise Cloud I promise Its very clear in japanese cloud is talking to lifestream aerith since she said "cetra territory" and they make it very clear cloud did experience aerith death before during her death scene at the altar. Its not a fake illusion. I think the english translation also has the same problem during her death scene.

Do want to point out though that Maiden coined the term The Whispers of Fate, and ends in the words “age of Rebirth”. Even if not written by Nojima, Maiden was published officially in the Ultimania Omega for the OG. If we’re arguing it isn’t canon due to inconsistency, than Traces of Two Pasts is not canon either, since it retconned the placement of Tifa’s scar. There’s so many Maiden references in Rebirth and Remake, it’s already canonized. Idk why there’s always been a debate on it. Cloud’s novella in the new Ultimania for Rebirth was just accepted as Canon, so too should Maiden.

From my recollection, the golden rainbow effect is more associated with new Worlds being created because of fate being changed than with Aerith and the white whispers, but that does not mean they are mutually exclusive. The golden rainbow effect is the equivalent of and addition to the Stamps from Remake, a deliberate visual cue for players to follow in order to figure things out, one that I do not believe actually exists in universe, except perhaps to key entities like Sephiroth and Cloud (after Sephiroth give him his "blessing" in order for Cloud to see the true nature of reality without clouded eyes). I would not be surprised if the golden rainbow effect is a double reference to the Wizard of Oz (Follow the Yellow Brick Road, coupled with the lyrics of Over the Rainbow). My idea is that the Aerith that shows up to combat Sephiroth with Cloud is Lifestream Aerith while the one present in the ending cutsence is the Aerith saved by Cloud when he deflected Masamune. Sephiroth's blessing allows Cloud to see into/being in multiple Worlds simultaneously, which means he is seeing the rift in the sky of the World the Saved Aerith is in; that World is now doomed because its Aerith has not completed the two part checklist for a world to be saved (activation of Holy and being in the lifestream to invoke it at the correct time to assist Holy in deflecting Meteor). To the rest of the party, there is no rift in the sky, since in their World Aerith HAS completed the two part checklist to save the world. To Barret and Tifa, especially, Cloud has gone completely off the deep end, talking to an Aerith that is not there to them. This also plays into expectations people have who have knowledge of Cloud story as it should proceed from here. But all FF7 fans know why Cloud is seeing Sephiroth, but the rest of the party in Rebirth thinks its because of cellular degradation. The devs want you to believe the ending cutsence Aerith is a product of Clouds mental issues, but it most likely is not, a bit of clever misdirection by the devs. One question is just why Nanaki sensed Aerith touching him in the ending cutscene, it could be connected to the experiments conducted on him give him some ability, or it could be an inante sensitivity to the lifestream. The answer to that question would inform a conclusion concerning the nature of the ending cutscene Aerith.

If it turns out not to be a multiverse and all of that has been a misdirection to the player I think it will be pretty unsatisfying because the misdirection would not be that clever in that case. Having sephiroth literally tell us that defying fate creates parallel worlds and then have it not be true would be even more unsatisfying than a multiverse is in the first place

My prediction for the series after analyzing the ending to Remake is that we're going to get a complete definitive defeat of Sephiroth/Jenova. Two of the key plot points in AC were the battles with Kadaj and co. which we dealt with at the end of Remake with the Whispers fight, and Cloud's geostigma/depression/guilt caused by his inability to save Aerith, which Aerith made a specific point to address in Rebirth. Now we also have this new interpretation of the Reunion not just being of Jenova's cells but "worlds" as well. So I feel like it's setting up a huge climactic battle at the end where once Sephiroth is defeated he'll be gone for good..... at least until Square Enix feels the need to play the FF7 card to boost sales and they retcon stuff or re-remake the game lol.

When you talk about the synchronized Cloud and Zack buster sword sequence, I think you both miss out on an important implication. Clouds mind is still busted and he still has part of Zack’s personality inside his head. Moreover, later when cloud and Aerith fight alongside - you see cloud assume Zack’s battle stance of all things. Therefore I believe that the scene of them syncing wasn’t done purely for fan service but to rather show how Cloud still projects Zack’s personality onto himself.

I believe both Sephiroth and Aerith entering the life stream have granted them the ability to enter different time-lines and alter the events that happen within them by using the whispers. Aerith knew that Cloud would fall through the church roof which is why she planted the flowerbed in that exact spot. Aerith knew that she had to die in order to enter the life stream which is why there was a quick glimpse of what would have happened if Cloud protected her. Her dying prevented Sephiroth from giving Cloud that "push" so she could bless him and protect him from Sephiroth's manipulation. Just a theory.

After marinating on the ending I have come to the conclusion that the reason why Cloud was crying and holding Aerith in the timeline she survives in was because of the “confluence of worlds and emotions” as Sephiroth explained. Confluence for those who don't know the meaning means to join or merge. Sephiroth says "And so it begins a confluence of worlds and emotions, Loss, Chief among them" = Loss, the most important emotion. When Cloud stopped Sephiroth he created a new timeline where he saved her in one and not the other. This can also explain why he has the empty holy materia and the black materia at the same time. As well as the Sky of the "doomed" timeline. This will add so much more layer to the story and the possibilities can be endless for something like this. The Aerith he saved, I believe Cloud is seeing both of those timelines, and Aerith that lived might even be trapped in between those worlds which is why the party can’t see her. But she is going to keep casting holy and stopping the meteor. Also, they didn’t show her burial scene. Why? What happened to her? Did she just simply disappear because she’s trapped between those worlds? This is not confirmed in anyways but the conclusion that makes the most sense to me

Would you call multiple 'permutations', so these settings spawn out from 'mainline' as a result of certain major decisions made a multiverse?

SENA literally did not translate Aeriths words where Tifa walks of room and sees Aerith and the players are left wondering what she says. In JP and other translations she speaks and says “Everything will be alright.” SENA did a terrible job of translating.

My theory for today, given what we see with Gilgamesh, is that we'll get expanded lore on summons including who the knights of the round were/are and it'll tie into how Zack and Aerith can be active in combat for players.

Glad I saved this for after I beat the game just now, I needed this.

I'm glad to see the "alternate/parallel/multiverse" interpretation/sentiment start to turn. It's objectively the incorrect way to look at the story from Chapter 10 forward. The FFX reference was fitting and the more accurate representation of the Sector 5 sequences.

At 46:51 when Aerith wispers to Tifa in spanish they caption those lines as "Sigue Así" that translate to "Keep it up"

Ive watched a few players go through the ending who arent ff7 veterans and i think they still were able to enjoy the ending and feel the impact of it. I think the ending is amazing because they were able to create an ending and experience that could be enjoyed by both.

43:26 His little, “Hahaha Speech.” I like that, lol.

@36:30 hmm struggling to follow your logic or point. So the Cloud and Aerith date scene is more about where Cloud is at. Well, where is Cloud at? What do you mean by this? You've presented an interpretation of what you think that scene is structurally about, but none of the substance. What about the fact that Aerith passes Cloud the white materia if it's just about "where Cloud is at"? For example, my take of that scene: Cloud and Aerith fall into the lifestream and Prime Aerith (the 'one' Aerith that exists 'inter-world') shifts both of them to an idyllic 'world' where they can spend some last pleasant few moments together before her end as a corporeal being across all worlds. She also uses this opportunity to pass her memories/white materia to Cloud to pass to herself in the Prime 'world'

They really ought to make another DLC before Part 3 if only to take off some of that load - the best thing maybe being to touch on that cut CC content

babyseal def said it best when he said the lore mechanics of stuff like multiverse are secondary to theming compared to western media etc, i found the ending super powerful and im one to roll my eyes at inclusion of multiverse stuff in general. its not supposed to be taken as direct and literal as like how avengers endgame deals with it. his breakdown of the ending is awesome, babyseal is killing it

I think there's a significant counterpoint for the argument of new people being too lost without knowing e.g. Zack. Assuming Part 3 will shed the "full light" on the backstory just as the original did, new players will get a similar "payoff" as people playing the OG for the first time. For new players, Zack has been this seemingly important figure which appears everywhere but they have no real background on. The "revelation" will put him in into context, after he's already been established as a character. I think it's a good handling of him, overall.

actually one thing that could rule out most of the timeline confusions about aerith living/dying is that what if the price of completing the prayer to call on Holy is actually the life of the Cetran who is giving the prayer ? In the OG this might have been masked by the fact that she was actually skewered by Sephiroth but in Rebirth, even when saved she still die and we still get the same materia dropping scene and music. If thats the case then in every scenarios as far as Sephiroth is aiming for he was already late on killing Aerith, further enhancing the idea of yes you can change fate by deflecting the killing blow but she needs ( or wants ) to die either way so it doesnt matter.

5:47 don’t worry man, nobody hates floatiness more than the KH fandom 💀

Not to mention if there’s any lose threads with deepground, it’s gonna be a little crazy

A very clever way to create the Path they intend to offer us in the third part,while they still mantein the situations and the mile stones of the OG......For the ones that Will follow the Path,there's a finale reward that Will make them recognize this Trilogy as a true masterpiece

Totally agree with Babyseal and you about the Dyne/Seto moments falling flat but for different reasons. It feels like their emotional impacts were lessened because we never got to sit with what happened. Dyne, in particular, still showed his depression and psychosis, but with protecting Barret from Shinra at the end with his last stand, his humanity still showed up and tells Barret that he’s going to have to carry the guilt for the rest of his life but we don’t have reflection on that. They don’t talk about it. Shinra shows up and we’re put in a chase sequence and ultimately it’s never brought up again. For Seto, all of that was just a letdown in that it didn’t land whatsoever for me. Bugenhagen was a total dick and his way to get Red to not stay was to say he failed. I understand the intent behind it but it came off as a very selfish thing for Bugenhagen to do and say, so it felt like HIS moment instead of Red’s. Then again, we are immediately pulled out of it by getting the exposition dump from Gi Nattak (which was fabulous), but the timing was a major misstep. I think placing that after we finish the chapter or as a capstone outside of the cavern.

People see this changed timeline as best used toward letting Aerith live, but I see it as the best way to make her death surprising, which would've been unthinkable for a remake.

Something interesting about the Gi tribe was them talking about how they made the black materia. They took materia from the Cetra and twisted it with their negative emotions - their pain, their suffering, their eternal torment, and spite for the planet for rejecting them in it’s embrace. “Purest of Materia no more, with pain and suffering made Black” It makes me wonder about Sephiroths speech about a confluence of worlds and emotions, and Clouds possession of the Black Materia at the end of the game. Like, have the negative emotions of all of these dying worlds been somehow imbued or merged into what was once the “purest of materia”? Did Sephiroth just create another black materia for some reason? Kind of a shot in the dark, but I feel like this stuff isn’t just some throwaway extra lore, like it’s gotta be there for a reason.

I’ve been waiting for these spoiler podcasts 🥳👍 just in time 100% play log completion tonight after 328 hours

Thanks for uploading this amazing discussion on KZfaq NSP! ❤ I shall watch this too later once I am done with the game! Can't wait to check it out! 🙌🏽🤩🤩✨️

25:00 so the devs turned the story into a multiverse story for the exact reasons people hate multiverse stories?

The idea of Aerith being there through spirit to keep Cloud from fully losing it to Sephiroth actually makes a lot of sense. I still think in the last game we’re gonna see him come to terms that the water burial did happen since it wasn’t shown here and Tifa and Aerith at that point would be in parallel in terms of two women in his life hiding the truth from him to save him

I think the blank materia will be the black materia. That it retains the power of all materia, to pass on what it holds upon command. Being empty is the important part, materia is memory and Sephiroth WANTS the party and world to feel despair... My thought is that the "Black materia" is a catalyst that will turn that blank materia into a vessel for the emotions it encounters.. Whats more, I think Zack will either find a way back to the "main focus" timeline, perhaps with his Aerith (that the spirit of our Aerith could "pilot" so to speak) at least for one battle... OR Cloud will have to come to terms with who he REALLY was, by denying it until Zack has to intervene, slap some sense into him, and die in the process at the hand of Cloud.

I believe the Cloud that walks through the portal to save Aerith from her fate, is a different Cloud we were playing as previously. I believe this Cloud is from the timeline in which Aerith lives, which is why he is at peace and is seen smiling.

Lets talk about the rifts in the sky. So when aerith and cloud look at the rift in the "dream world," it looked vaporus and faded. When cloud looks up at the end, the rift looks solid-like and bright. Thoughts?

I think cloud was pushed out of one world and merged with cloud of the main world. He literally tells Barrett when asked what happed to him that he went to a different world. The fact that two merged is why he can see the scar in the sky

My first assumption was that Zack has ended up in the main FF7R world with Cloud and everyone else because I noticed that in the church he was in there was a Cloud-shaped hole in the roof while musing about worlds coming together.

The other guy, (not babyseal) needs to collaborate with sleepezi. Sleepezi is the absolute BEST!!

Marlene also needs to be addressed. The Marlene that saw Aerith's fate was in the main timeline, not in Zack's timeline, yet Zack still found out through Marlene.

This is why I don’t understand the people disappointed that this wasn’t a shot for shot remake, you have hours and hours of people theorizing about what happened and what could happen, if this just ended exactly how you expect where is the intrigue

Part 3 will be on 3 discs! Make us relive the original!

I wonder will the picture we took with Aerith and the present we bought her feature in part 3

I think my biggest issue with the ending is that this game has some real middle child problems. It’s got the massive job of setting up for a big finale and getting all the pieces in place that it forsakes a satisfying end to the character arcs of the game. The only character who felt truly complete to me was Aerith, which was the lowest bar they had to cross, given this games ending. For everyone else, it feels like I have to wait another few years for any conclusion

While I think that the Zack scenes in RE:make were likely confusing for a first time FFVII player, RE:birth has done a lot to help fill in at least enough of his story to be comprehensible. Based solely on the two games, Zack was a friend of Cloud's 5 years ago, who died fighting Shinra infantry and gave Cloud the buster sword. Is this the whole truth? No, but I think we're still going to get a Cloud memory section in the third game.

The thing about Cloud multiversing could just be a nod to him showing up in other places like Tactics. I think its a canon kind of thing for him. I hope we find out why. They also juiced it up with the Gilgamesh thing and the FF!0 references, the timeline skipping in Ever Crisis

Some things I agree with and some I don't, but nevertheless, I think the conversation was a very interesting one. *Glenn* I do disagree about Glenn shouldn't be Cloud's dad. I hope he is Cloud's dad, I think they have the potential to really give Cloud an interesting background of family members and that includes his mother. They have the chance to explain Glenn in his failings and his whirlwind romance with Claudia then all the sudden shirking his duties as a father to run off chasing a dream. We need more definite background on Cloud's mom just as much as his dad. Cloud is the main character of the game and I think it's fair to explore him in that kind of great detail. We have the chance to explore another broken aspect of Cloud, growing up without a father. We see Glenn's paternal instinct come out with Sephiroth and many think it is the guilt of him abandoning Claudia and his son. We don't know what exactly Claudia has told Cloud growing up in detail other than just a line or two. This is about Cloud already missing a piece of himself by not having his father around, not necessarily that Claudia couldn't raise him, but just not having the opportunity to know and love his dad. This could at to Cloud's final breakdown to learn the truth leaving the thoughts of what could have been. What if.... many things could have happened such as Glenn may have in Cloud's mind been able to protect his mother. We never really saw Cloud get a chance to mourn his mother's passing. With being confronted with his father.... all of that comes back like a Tsunami. Anger, blame, anguish, and sorrow. This would make Tifa's role even more important as she now has no parents left living either. If Glenn is alive somehow... what role would Tifa play in mediating this kind of interaction of Cloud learning the truth? *Aerith and Zack* I really hope that Zack can save the Terrier timeline world... perhaps in the end when worlds must part Zack, Aerith, Cloud, and company get a chance to reconcile before Zack and Aerith return to the Terrier Verse to live out their lives. I do agree that they really pulled back on Zack. What we got did not match the hype they put out on Zack. It made it seem like we would get this Laguna style back and forth with Cloud and company and then with Zack and his party even if it would have only been two or three separate chapters. I feel they really missed out on that. Killing off Biggs was a wasted opportunity. They could have had Zack's party including with potentially Kunsel and Luxiere. In some ways I feel like they were trying to dial back Aerith and Zack's relationship on purpose. *The Compilation* This was my biggest gripe, while they threw Cissnei in Gongaga and included Kyrie and Leslie, they gave almost no reference to other compilation characters, even in Crisis Core Reunion which they redid for this purpose. We got nothing about Angeal or Genesis, or anything about Rufus talking about Lazard or if he even knew that was his brother. They mention Kunsel in Remake and that was it. Evan is seems to be MIA... Dirge of Cerebus had Nero and Weiss with Deepground in Intermission and almost nothing became of it. Before Crisis only got some slight nods with the Avalanche expansion and other than that... absolutely nothing unless you notice that Broden looks like Verdot slightly or the Commander in Junon in Red looks like she could be Elena's older sister Emma aka Gun from Before Crisis. Katana from Before Crisis was from Gongaga and not even one reference. Elfe of course got nothing. It was very underwhelming and disappointing in that regard. I really hope we get more about Before Crisis and the rest of the compilation characters in part 3 including the Multi-player DoC with the other 3 Tsviets Pummel, Argento, and Usher. *Opinion* While the game is beyond fantastic in many ways there is still a lot they could do. I had originally envisioned this game being 4 parts as there is a lot to tell and the story beats NSP mentioned are only the ones that they are hitting in the OG and what they have developed in the trilogy thus far leaving many other story threads Such as the Turks/Verdot and his daughter Elfe, Zirconaid, Genesis, Angeal, all the characters from DoC ... if they address all of that too in part 3, I see it being bigger than rebirth. Potentially a main story of 70+ hours. I do hope they change their minds about DLC and give us some.

Can someone please tell me what music is playing at @ 1-hour 55 mins?

Let's go boys! I didn't get watch the whole stream so this is awesome to be able to go back to

I think they fumbled the execution (no pun intended) of Aerith’s death scene. They could have gotten the same convoluted plot across without cheapening the moment I think.

Max Dood + Baby Seal??? Let's goooo ❤❤❤

Unrelated to lore but it's quite funny how postgame system has a setting to completely disable the Zack interludes

I hope that the fight against the Weapons appears around 50% of the way, and Aerith rejoins the party for the fight. I dunno, I just want her back 😭 (She's also so essential to my hard mode run 😢 Synergy-Comet for the lulz).

Make a open letter video to squeenix with all the ff7 creaters pleading for them to take their time making part 3. If it is rushed it will let a lot of people down.

Here’s my summation of Remake/Rebirth: it’s intriguing, but has no lasting power. It’s only interesting *now.* The original has had such a lasting impact because themes and moments were simple and didn’t overstay their welcome. The new trilogy can often times feel like a slog and when you do get to the “new” narrative stuff, it’s only interesting at the moment. Once the question gets answered, the mystique is gone. You’re left at that moment asking yourself “was this necessary?” It may be hype for some at this moment, but will it be a decade from now? Will the trilogy’s attempts be recognized as the definitive-edition, or will it be the “better” of the compilation material?

The debate on is it a dream or an actual different world is irrelevant IMO. In this world dreams can be REALITY. How else do you explain Aerith giving Cloud materia in a different dream/world and then him having it in a new world and giving it back to Aerith? Is this a Mirror of Erised thing?