The War for the Hugo Awards

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Күн бұрын

00:00 The first Hugo winner
02:30 Robert Heinlein and John W Campbell
03:53 WorldCon, WSFS and the Futurians
05:40 Science fiction and racism
07:00 Analog and Ben Bova
07:52 Larry Niven, Joe Haldeman, David Brin, Orson Scott Card
08:50 WisCon and Feminst SF
10:45 Online geek culture and diversity
12:33 The disgrace of Harlan Ellison
14:32 Lovecraft and global fandom
15:32 Hugo voting and online influence
17:25 Sad Puppies
19:24 What is a Hugo worth?
21:34 Liu Cixin and Chinese SF industry
23:04 Discon 3 voting and Chengdu 2023
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@samwisegamgee4659 4 ай бұрын

I'd heard (or, heard the whispers) about all these individual stories in isolation, but it was nice to see them all put together in context and as part of an evolving storyline of the genre. Thanks for the insight.

@sonofraven76 4 ай бұрын

For anyone who doesn't have the context--and it wasn't quite explained in the video--the WorldCon and therefore the Hugo Awards don't belong to an individual, a company, a charity or even a group. No-one could sell WorldCon to Conde Nast. There's a volunteer group that oversees the balloting process, and this group was the one that noted the concerted effort by the CCP to obtain the hosting rights for 2023, but all decisions are democratic and action to not count the suspicious ballots was rejected by the WorldCon attendees in an open vote, with obvious questions being asked as to how that came about. Once the hosting rights are awarded, absolutely everything about that WorldCon--including the Hugos at that event--falls within the control of those hosts. The Hugos themselves are therefore different every year, and while the 2023 event was marred by this controversy, it has no necessary bearing on future awards. Unless, that is, someone gerrymanders the vote for a particular WorldCon again, as it appears they did for the 2023 event, and since it's been highlighted there's less chance of votes going their way. Finally, and with a due nod to the Tin Foil Hat brigade, the reason the CCP were willing to do this is that it's a small part in an on-going attempt to inculcate a sci-fi culture within their people. Some decades ago representatives of their government were liaising with NASA on a joint project, and they asked what the NASA engineers had in common while growing up that made them want to be tech and space leaders, which the Chinese weren't but wanted to be. They all said they read sci-fi. This was reported back, and the CCP immediately began a training programme for sci-fi writers, allowing them access to previously banned western sci-fi literature, and granting them living expenses and travel visas. That process has gathered enormous pace since, and explains why the WorldCon was the public-facing part of the huge commercial 'sci-fi based' deal-making enterprise that surrounded the con, and why the CCP wanted such an overt hand in the Hugos.

@DamienWalter 4 ай бұрын

TLDR the WorldCon / Hugos are a completely unprotected brand that is in the process of being aggressively taken over.

@statickaeder29 4 ай бұрын

I'm glad that the early Hugo people couldn't deny Le Guin and De Laney... Especially Le Guin, though that isn't fair, since I have read so much more of her work, so I can't say that I have a good understanding of both authors... and Le Guin is so excellent that not including her would be a crime. Of course, other authors went the way of Tiptree Junior - changing their names so that they could get published. - I was born in 77 too.

@user-wt7wd4oi7j 4 ай бұрын

The lesson to learn here, is this: Douchebaggery ruins everything. As, indeed, it should- in order to remind us that we ought not behave like douchebags. Great video.

@espalier 4 ай бұрын

Sometimes it’s hard to know if you’re participating in douchebaggery. Sometimes people will tell you, sometimes people will tell stories about you.

@user-wt7wd4oi7j 4 ай бұрын

Here's a good baseline to work from: If you're unclear on the question of whether or not you're acting like a douchebag, simply err on the side of caution, assume you're being a douchebag, then adjust your behavior accordingly. In any event, a bit of honest self-reflection should allow you to arrive at the correct answer.@@espalier

@forest_green 4 ай бұрын

@@user-wt7wd4oi7j yeah, it's not that hard to NOT grope people

@carlosvasquez9890 Ай бұрын

Well...thats the Woke Mind Virus, in a nutshell.

@steveosteveareno2670 4 ай бұрын

I'm 63 now . Read most of those early works years ago. Made my own mind up about Heinlein years ago. Haven't cared about awards in general for some time.

@ozymandiasultor9480 4 ай бұрын

If that is so, you wasted your time watching this video, you don't care for awards, remember?

@cogs2937 4 ай бұрын

@@ozymandiasultor9480 l don't care about awards either. At least I've never bought a book based on award. However it's interesting to hear about this because of the influence it has had and will continue to have on the industry. So while I have never paid any attention to whether or not a book has won some inside baseball award, they have, without my thinking about it, had a huge influence on what gets published and promoted.

@brycefelperin 4 ай бұрын

My mother was hit on by Issac Asimov at a Worldcon in Pittsburg. She wasn't a fan, but only escorting my uncle there who was underage at the time.

@ozymandiasultor9480 4 ай бұрын

What? English is not my first language, but I guess Asimov did not hit your mother but was trying something else... That dirty old man!

@jaimeosbourn3616 4 ай бұрын

And?

@paulsansonetti7410 4 ай бұрын

His son grew up to be a pedo

@nicolassalamanca8051 4 ай бұрын

This video has opened my eyes in more ways than one Thank you for that

@Miata822 4 ай бұрын

My last WorldCon was the San Jose Sad Puppy debacle. The overlapping controversies were just too much for me. I hear it has only gotten worse. Pity.

@SFDestiny 4 ай бұрын

Great episode! This is a good length and depth of content for me 😉

@andysaul7039 4 ай бұрын

Not sure about your ultimate conclusion. It didn't sound that democratic under John W. Campbell

@zazander732 4 ай бұрын

Great video, always good to give a little Historical Perspective. I wonder what the future hold for the Hugo's, I think they need to make some more categories for best novel.

@KaoticVibes 4 ай бұрын

I love your videos and cant wait to dive into this one! Thanks

@paulsansonetti7410 4 ай бұрын

7:00 imagine how evil you have to be to try and cater to your primary readership ? Shocking

@vincentcuroso5944 22 күн бұрын

Just found Damien and it's great there is a "breadtube" type long form channel dedicated to intelligent analysis/criticism of SciFi and Fantasy media and culture. Nothing against the short form fandom based sites but this is a gold nugget.

@forest_green 4 ай бұрын

Thank you so much for this in-depth reporting! I had no idea those writers were such creeps - watching Harlan Ellison violate and humiliate a woman, while the audience laughed, is sickening. If all your videos are this informative, I'll be your newest subscriber.

@OmnivorousReader 4 ай бұрын

Thanks for this; all the things I never knew about the Hugos...

@MettleHurlant 4 ай бұрын

I think there’s room for all flavors of science fiction, but industry awards will never reflect the tastes of every reader. It’s better to focus on book clubs, forums, and reader reviews to discuss, analyze, and get recommendations. Let the insiders duke it out all they want over a stupid trophy.

@carolynethrasher4527 4 ай бұрын

Thank you for this explainer. It was well done.

@isaganipalanca8803 4 ай бұрын

Thank you for another superb segment!

@leafyrox 4 ай бұрын

Thanks for this history. I never got involved with the community but have loved science fiction stories for many years. I don't read as much as I ought to any more, but the last books I read were by Octavia Spencer.

@DamienWalter 4 ай бұрын

I'm going to assume you mean Octavia Butler and say...one of the greats!

@leafyrox 4 ай бұрын

@DamienWalter ah you're right, I should have checked her last name. I enjoyed the books very much.

@heartjakehotel9955 2 ай бұрын

Holy shit amazing video. Subscribed!

@SneakyNinjaDog 4 ай бұрын

I have always considered Hugo and Nebula award blurps on books as not to say "best" but propably good. It seems it may even be less than that in some cases 😀

@justinecooper9575 4 ай бұрын

12:50 - I got Ellison's autograph in two books at a mini-con and he and i chatted while he signed the books. He really was a jerk.

@marcocatano554 4 ай бұрын

real good summary of events

@stewart2449 4 ай бұрын

Great video, once again. But I love The Cold Equations and its gruesomely bleak logic! Or did 30 years; I read it in an anthology of dark tales called ‘Through Time & Space’, which included a few gems: Before Eden (Clarke), Kaleidoscope (Bradbury?), Counterfeit (?)… plus a ropier story called something like The Rhum. And that’s as far as my memory takes me. I wonder if anyone else remembers this.

@susansprague7304 4 ай бұрын

Great video, thanks! I was kissed by Isaac Asimov in Boston at Noreascon Two (1980). He didn't grope me though

@DamienWalter 4 ай бұрын

He got around.

@salomekjones 4 ай бұрын

Outstanding.

@asicdathens 4 ай бұрын

Artemis is not bad. It is a very well written book that I really enjoyed. It is not Dune but it is good.

@EricKay_Scifi 4 ай бұрын

"The only thing worse than being talked about, is not being talk about" - Oscar Wilde

@jessemiller7540 4 ай бұрын

This is great. I've been an sf fan since the early 80's, and I confess I never understood all of this until your video. Long live leftist sci-fi!

@justinecooper9575 4 ай бұрын

Wait, the Hugos are still a thing?

@randolphpinkle4482 4 ай бұрын

Wherever humans get together, you'll find this endless opera.

@rodoh22 3 ай бұрын

Long live the HUGOs

@paulsansonetti7410 4 ай бұрын

Plenty of people think Shelley didnt write Frankenstein

@DamienWalter 4 ай бұрын

"plenty"

@paulsansonetti7410 4 ай бұрын

@@DamienWalter Herrick commended Lauritsen for presenting a large amount of evidence, and found much of that evidence persuasive, including the difference in quality between Frankenstein and works such as Valperga and The Last Man, as well as that between the original and revised editions of Frankenstein itself, and Mary Shelley's lack of interest in the themes of Percy Bysshe Shelley's work. Herrick credited Lauritsen with carefully examining the "extra-textual evidence", and agreed with him that the fact that the original manuscript of Frankstein is in Mary Shelley's handwriting does not show that she composed the work. However, while he agreed with Lauritsen that Percy Bysshe Shelley had homoerotic feelings and deep friendships for men and that Frankenstein "contains potential homosexual relationships", he disagreed with Lauristen's view that Frankenstein was primarily written for gay men.

@paulsansonetti7410 4 ай бұрын

@@DamienWalter The Man Who Wrote Frankenstein was praised by the critic Camille Paglia, who wrote in Salon that "Lauritsen assembles an overwhelming case that Mary Shelley, as a badly educated teenager, could not possibly have written the soaring prose of 'Frankenstein' ... and that the so-called manuscript in her hand is simply one example of the clerical work she did for many writers as a copyist." Paglia compared Lauritsen's work to that of the critic Leslie Fiedler, concluding that The Man Who Wrote Frankenstein was, "a funny, wonderful, revelatory book that I hope will inspire ambitious graduate students and young faculty to strike blows for truth in our mired profession, paralyzed by convention and fear.

@paulsansonetti7410 4 ай бұрын

@@DamienWalter bare maximum she was the coauthor Since the initial publication of Mary Wollstonecraft Shelley's novel Frankenstein; or, The Modern Prometheus in 1818, there has existed uncertainty about the extent to which Mary Shelley's husband, Percy Bysshe Shelley, contributed to the text. While the novel was conceived and mainly written by Mary, Percy is known to have provided input in editing and publishing the manuscript. Some critics have alleged that Percy had a greater role-even the majority role-in the creation of the novel, though mainstream scholars have generally dismissed these claims as exaggerated or unsubstantiated. Based on a transcription of the original manuscript, it is currently believed that Percy contributed between 4,000 and 5,000 words to the 72,000 word novel.

@paulsansonetti7410 4 ай бұрын

@@DamienWalter Mary was just 18 when she had the idea for Frankenstein; 19 when she finished writing the book. How could a teenager come up with not one but two enduring archetypes: the scientist obsessed by blue-sky research and unable to see it has ethical and social consequences, and the near human he creates? It’s an astonishing achievement, and even more so when we remember that, being a girl, Mary wasn’t educated in the same way as many of her Romantic writing peers. Unlike Percy, she had no Eton nor Oxford, but had lessons in the home schoolroom and a grim six months at Miss Pettman’s Ladies’ School in Ramsgate, and learned from browsing the books in her father’s library.

@teucer915 3 ай бұрын

A friend of mine continues to this day to be targeted from time to time for harassment by Larry Correia fans.

@DamienWalter 3 ай бұрын

Well Larry's career is dead, so attacking people on his FB page is about all he has left

@maksimsmelchak7433 4 ай бұрын

👍🏻😎

@cane6074 4 ай бұрын

Just like the Oscars and the Academy awards, its just another ego fest for well connected industry insiders to make money for themselves and promote themselves through gatekeeping, they have no interests in the craft itself and are undermining it as well for their own benefit. Its a wider problem not just in publishing but wider society as well. Its one of the reason modern entrainment in general mediocre or bad these days.

@GhostRanger5060 4 ай бұрын

I love the history of science fiction. Especially during the Golden Era in the 1970s when all that good money was out there, many novels became mainstream best-sellers, and there were still paying markets for new writers. Fiction has suffered due to the internet and e-publishing. It's too easy for bad writing to be self-published and there is a glut of mediocrity that is hyped by those who master the tools of social media (as opposed to the tools of good writing). Which is sad. Short fiction has almost disappeared as a literary style. As for the controversies, let's be honest. If the Hugo award was based solely on quality without regard to race, sex, orientation, profitability, or politics, I highly doubt that ANY of the winners in the last twenty years would have won. In our glorious post-modern 21st Century utopia, choices are based on either marketing and/or virtue-signaling. That's all.

@courtneybrown6204 4 ай бұрын

In art history, its important to note that the gay sculptor Michelangelo Buonaroti admitted that Artemesia Gentileschi was a great painter when no other male painters would. Sad puppies have always existed but now we have a historical perspective that often puts them where they belong.

@barrymoore4470 4 ай бұрын

Michelangelo never knew Artemisia, she having been born twenty-nine years after his death (his dates: 1475-1564; her dates: 1593-circa 1656). You're probably thinking of Sofonisba Anguissola (circa 1532-1625), whose work Michelangelo did praise.

@ronin47-ThorstenFrank 4 ай бұрын

Oh, interestng. I know exactly why I didn´t like the Three-Body-Problem. Didn´t know that little fact about Liu Cixin before. Yeah, this video did open my eyes (like those of previous commenter) too.

@DamienWalter 4 ай бұрын

It's an expression of a remarkably nasty ideology.

@ronin47-ThorstenFrank 4 ай бұрын

@@DamienWalter Thank you! I fully agree. Got into a lot of fights over this issue but now I don´t feel alone anymore.

@coastdownhills 4 ай бұрын

As an old white guy reading Sci Fi since the mid 1950's I never paid any attention to the Hugos. Of late I've read mostly The Magazine of Fantasy and Science Fiction for my Sci Fi, my taste now more in other genres. I recently emailed the editor of F&SF the quality of stories going down as diversity went up. Maybe there is just more competition for good stories. I whole heartily agree with diversity and hate that many authors encountered discrimination. But the quality of the story should come first.

@LateBoomer-sl1dk 4 ай бұрын

Makes me chuckle to remember that I thought I became a libertarian all on my own, when I'd been devouring all that Golden Age sci fi (no regrets BTW) from all those libertarian writers. Funny too that my hero Isaac Asimov's liberalism kept me balanced - then turned out to be a dirty old man. Ah well take the good with the bad.

@MinesAGuinness 4 ай бұрын

It makes me chuckle that you thought you were becoming a libertarian, only to end up supporting the victory of a supporter of genocide and the authoritarian Communist Party... just so long as you got to "own the libs" as I believe you call it in your country. Tom Paine would chunder at the parody of his ideas you have become.

@JasenJohns 4 ай бұрын

Arthur C. Clarke and Marion Zimmer Bradley were my big disappointments, but I can engage their works on my own terms. Recalling who they were as people adds a critical layer, but does not diminish the quality of their fictions.

@FriendofWigner 4 ай бұрын

@@JasenJohns What is the controversy with Clarke? I figured he was down-low gay, but I've never seen anything else to suggest anything wrong, either personally or politically. EDIT: Not saying anything wrong with being gay, just that it would have been controversial during much of his life, and even to some people now.

@LateBoomer-sl1dk 4 ай бұрын

@@JasenJohns I agree. I recently read a letter exchange between Björk and a philosopher who referred to her songs as "entities." I think that's an interesting way to look at works of art. Once they leave the artist and become public they behave almost like individuals. I don't think the muses give a damn about our morals.

@stewart2449 4 ай бұрын

@@FriendofWigner Clarke has been accused - without, I think, compelling proof, of borderline child sexual abuse in Sri Lanka. It’s a pretty grim shitting on his legacy when he’s not alive to argue his corner.

@chong2389 4 ай бұрын

I used to use the Hugos to find new authors. Never again! Shame on them!!!

@celiacresswell6909 4 ай бұрын

I get that politics will be part of all writing and especially SF, but I think framing SF as primarily a political battle is mistaken. Like the DEI movement, it seems weirdly counterproductive even on its own terms, still less towards the goal of promoting good SF. If gropers and racists write amazing books, bring em on.

@DamienWalter 4 ай бұрын

This is the only video you'll find on diversity on this channel. If that is "framing SF as primarily a political battle" that's really about you.

@celiacresswell6909 4 ай бұрын

@@DamienWalter punchy but okay! - Better not prove my point by doing another one!

@GhostRanger5060 4 ай бұрын

Fiction is fiction. I like Stephen King but I disagree with his politics. Can that be a thing? And Heinlein is an interesting case. Calling him right wing is funny. The man was a committed nudist. Some people are too complicated to label politically.

@celiacresswell6909 4 ай бұрын

@@GhostRanger5060 is nudism political? Dam humans are weird!

@richardnunziata3221 4 ай бұрын

The fall of Hugo is sad indeed

@chrisschultz8598 4 ай бұрын

The Hugo Awards were nothing more than an excuse for a bunch of good ol' boy writers to get together, pat each other on the back and hand out cheaply made trophies. It started to die when other writers who were not part of the good ol' boy network started taking the awards seriously.

@MosheFeder 4 ай бұрын

I think you're confusing the Hugos with the Nebulas. It's the latter that writer members of SFWA give each other. The Hugos are voted on by members of the Worldcon, who are overwhelmingly fans. Neither trophy is cheap to make, but the Nebula is more expensive and each one is unique.

@chrisschultz8598 4 ай бұрын

I think you're right. I had forgotten about the Nebulas. But I don't think there's any doubt that the Hugo gang was also tightly knit, and stories about the partying that went on during the awards is legendary. The term "cheaply made trophies" was intentional slander.

@commentarytalk1446 4 ай бұрын

The Hugos today? I thought they were The Oscars? Or is that a parallel universe...

@michaelmayo 4 ай бұрын

Great overview video although I might have done more on the current age and the interconnectivity with Locus, since that's an important gatekeeper in the Hugos discussion. As to our current troubles, my take is that political correctness has damaged the brand. "Diversity" is tribalistic racism, plain and simple. It means you don't judge a book on its story, but on immuttable characteristics. I never gave a shit whether the author was straight or gay, black or white, male or female or trans. The only thing that mattered was whether I got through a page and wanted to go to the next one. Heinlein did, Octavia Butler didn't, and I've slogged through a lot of her limp prose wondering if it would ever get better and didn't. At least she was moderately readable, unlike N.K. Jemisen, who is just unreadable. She's great as a speaker, but her stories are awful. Why are they celebrated? Because they're "Diverse." I'd say they're likely to be forgotten except what's coming is likely to be worse. And it was a huge mistake to hold the Worldcon in China, period. How could a fandom supposedly dedicated to freedom decide to stand with a murderous, tyranical government? I get that China is cranking out a lot of quality SF. That's fine. I enjoy it too. But that's not the same thing as having a convention in a country where I guarentee there were CCP agents carefully watching things and the locals know they're being watched. Why did we invite Big Brother Xi in?

@jaimeosbourn3616 4 ай бұрын

I found Butler mildly entertaining and Jeminsen a writer of mediocre fantasies which she tried to pass off as SF.

@patpowers9210 4 ай бұрын

I dunno, I just feel sadness when I read about the tremendous failings of SF luminaries. Isaac Asimov hurt the most, I think, because I really loved the Foundation series and The Caves of Steel, and I hated it when I found out that some part of Asimov embraced that Donald Trump "when you're a star you can just grab 'em by the pussy!" thing. He of all people should have known better. But he didn't, or didn't want to. In either case, it was really disappointing, and that's how I feel about most of the "isms" that have screwed up the Hugo Awards. With capitalism the worst of all, and the hardest to overcome. I can't summon righteous indignation, just disappointment.

@jaimeosbourn3616 4 ай бұрын

You should do a littl e more research on that point and quit letting malicious gossip govern your judgement

@jeremytan739 4 ай бұрын

@@jaimeosbourn3616you think some part of this video is just malicious gossip?

@patpowers9210 4 ай бұрын

@@jaimeosbourn3616 This isn't the first time I heard of Asimov's grabby hands. They tried to pass it off as a silly old man's affectation. I think there's smoke under all that fire.

@steinsol2290 4 ай бұрын

I think Dr. A was very much aware of his behavior. Ca 1971 he wrote "The Sensuous Dirty Old Man", a parody of a couple of popular books at the time (The S. Man/Woman). Asimov is obviously delighted by this opportunity to divulge in detail how to be a dirty old man...

@jaimeosbourn3616 4 ай бұрын

@@jeremytan739 I think that the degree of Asimovs "infractions" is . Part of it was obviously an act. I hope this doesn't interfer with your attempts at moral superiority.

@stolman2197 3 ай бұрын

How about the best stories win? Crazy idea! Also if you are going to talk about bad behavior of old writers how about publicizing the disgusting childhood of Moira Greyland at the hands of her mother and stepfather?

@DamienWalter 3 ай бұрын

I literally broke that story in The Guardian.

@justinecooper9575 4 ай бұрын

What's funny, to me at least, is that Liu Cixin won the Hugo award for best novel, and almost universal praise, despite his portrayal of women in "Remembrance of Earth's Past" as the destroyers of human civilization, and mankind itself, by putting their personal beliefs, feelings and desires over the needs of humanity.

@mikkins85710 4 ай бұрын

All awards are a joke no matter their focus.

@GhostRanger5060 4 ай бұрын

You are so correct. All the hand-wringing by the commenters here about "the integrity of the Hugo award" is naïve and pathetic. The people who invent the awards and present the awards always have an agenda. And that's okay.

@carlosvasquez9890 Ай бұрын

This video is nothing but a sad attempt to disguise woke propaganda as something still culturaly relevant.

@DamienWalter Ай бұрын

"Everything that scares me is Woke"

@carlosvasquez9890 Ай бұрын

@@DamienWalter Not at all, man. Look: I enjoy SciFI and prefer long format videos, so I truly and honestly wanted to like your channel. I watched your video TWICE (I hope you have means to check the veracity of that statement) hoping to find something interesting and insigthful. What do you find instead? "white supremacy...bla bla...discrimination against black and women...bla..bla..white guys…(now, aparently, wearing aviator sunglasses)…bla bla" WTF man...WTF... You might honestly believe otherwise, but whether you like it or not, these are POLITICAL statements...and NO ONE wants to find political views in your enterntaintment. Not anymore. One piece of advice: learn to leave you political views out of your profesional life...or, be honest with your audience and advertise yourself as an activist. All the best

@DamienWalter Ай бұрын

@@carlosvasquez9890 oh no! I'm so sorry you had this encounter with the facts of history! How terribly upsetting for you. How will you survive knowing what actually happened instead of filling your head with whatever flavour of self serving bullshit you generally put in there.

@theodorejenkins6066 4 ай бұрын

Dude learn how to pronounce Hienlien LOL

@susansprague7304 4 ай бұрын

Says the person who can't even spell Heinlein. LMAO.

@theodorejenkins6066 4 ай бұрын

@susanspraguepoo ccreators job to pronounce the words in his script right and yet he couldn't even get one of the most famous authors of all times name right. Just sad