Agree

This is his Toby-est moment.

It is his finest moment. He stood for the Constitution. It's Bartlet's worst moment.

100% agreed

I may be a softy, but I believe his finest moment is with his twins - not just the hat bit, but when he comes back to the White House and says he knew his kids for 45 minutes and if someone was hurting them he'd bomb them.

If you get a chance to catch this episode, pay particular attention to sc24. In the oval office with Leo, The President and Toby. This was a 5 page scene and in one section Toby spoke for 2 minutes straight reciting countries, institutions, weapons, names,events,timelines,etc Richard Schiff was so quiet that day. The props taking request fr production had erected giant cue cards all over the Oval Office. Martin was also quiet unlike his jovial( does James Gagney every chance he gets). John Spencer,nobody knows this, cannot read scripts. His personal assistant would read the script and he would write it down on a yellow pad HIS lines. That's how he learned Leo's words. On this day of filming, all 3 were in their element. Richard never looked at the cue cards. He was in a zone. In a trance. He nailed every take, every nuanced. His performance was magical. It was an experience I still cherish to this day

Just to be clear, are you talking about “17 people” or “Two Cathedrals” here?

@@leumas75 My account above is about 17 People. As far as Two Cathedrals, the story takes place in a heavy storm but I was confused why the sfx dept was pumping so much wind and rain INTO the oval office. Personally I didn't think viewers are going to buy it but however the story was so strong with the President torn and questioning his faith, smoking and snuffing out the cigarette in the church, it was so shocking and scandalous, the rain did not matter at all

@@ltcolumbo9708 Thanks for the reply. I just rewatched 17 People and figured it HAD to be that one with Toby questioning the chain of command / MS / all the things. As for Two Catedrals, it’s been a LONG while, but I seriously don’t remember wind blowing into the Oval at all, but rather being awestruck at Barlett’s excoriations in Latin (thank God I took enough of that language to understand what he was saying in the moment, which was both awesome and soulwrenching) at the end. That and the significance placed (through previous scenes) of the cigarette. Fantastic work, you should (and it seems obviously are) proud of your work on that show. I’ve run post-audio, tracking, and even some scoring for a number of shows, and the feeling I get watching others watching a show and reacting in just the right way at a build/crescendo to a hit at just the right moment is SO DAMN EXHILARATING!!!

@@leumas75 You're a composer? How cool is that! Always wanted to sit in during spotting/scoring sessions but usually it conflicts with my work. Don't remember who scored The West Wing but I do know Wendy & Lisa( Prince's Revolution) was the composers on Crossing Jordan and Heroes which I both worked on. You were talking about the exhilaration of everything falling into places and experiencing the movie goers joy, immediately Jaws came to mind. That was a MASTERFUL JOB what John brought to the picture. I hope to see your name on the big screen soon

+1 to this.

funny.... that was the first episode I ever saw. I was in my mid 40's.... I'm a vet. I have a friend buried at Arlington. I was sitting there weeping, watching. im as republican as they come but I was hooked.

Spacy! No. THANK YOU! For what it's worth, trained with some Canadians while I was in West Germany. A nicer bunch of guys you couldn't ask to meet!

hishighness420: definitely, yes

I think that episode tried to say that even if people are on the opposite sides politically, all can appreciate the service veterans have done for the nation. Because it is unfortunate how military policies made by politicians are coupled with military personnel who execute them. Like after the Vietnam war returning soldiers were blamed for what they were sent to do, and how criticism of government's military actions is considered as criticism of the military personnel. Both are wrong. Still I bet that huge majority of those, who criticize government's military actions, value the people who put their life in the service of the nation -- and might die for it.

Craig_M President Bartlett. :)

That scene is amazing, and Leo's expression shows he understands the gravity of it all.

Well except that he wasn't right at all. They showed the situation room that night in a previous episode. Nancy and Leo disagreed on what to do and Hoynes made the call.

@@kulaak-krii They call the people around the President "advisors" for a reason. You listen to them then make the call you think is right which is exactly what Hoynes did. Being National Security Advisor, Chief of Staff, Chairman of the Joint Chiefs, Vice President or even the President doesn't make you right all the time.

@@kulaak-krii Your line of thought takes away exactly the executive authority that Toby wrongly thought had been taken away. If the VP was supposed to automatically listen to the NSA, then once again we have someone "nobody elected" calling the shots. But as the scene made clear, we didn't! We had Hoynes, who was duly elected, making the actual decision. The fact that he agreed to take Leo's tack over Nancy's is a question about his judgment, not about the constitutional issue. As a secondary issue, I disagree completely that a Chief of Staff should be discounted in such a situation, but that isn't really the point. The point is Hoynes did in fact make the call. Which is to say, Toby's bet in this scene is a losing one.

I wouldn't say that Leo was proud of Toby. It's more like, 'Please stop asking about this. The less you know, the better.'

@@partyguy101ify No, Alex nailed it, there was also pride there. It's subtle and easily missed by casual watchers.

@@davidstone53 So subtle only expert viewers can see it eh? LOL

@@2Malachi Since you need it spelled out for you: From 3:53-3:54, the look of shock(at Toby putting it all together), turns into a small smile(out of pride of Toby putting it all together, despite Leo's repeated pooh-pooh-ing Toby's energy and time put towards this situation) And finally at 4:02-4:03, Leo's small smile has turned into an intentionally focused/measured look(the anger at John Hoynes' chutzpah is bubbling up, but he's not sure what POTUS is going to do about this, so he holds his personal feelings back until he can speak with President Bartlet).

@@partyguy101ify No, he was proud. Leo is set up and demonstrated to have the most savvy and brilliant political mind of the entire cast(including President Bartlet). Josh is the 'rising star', but it's Leo who in most episodes see's the end of the story long before it arrives. In this moment, Leo was blindsided. He wasn't tracking Hoynes, so he was missing a lot of crucial info. Hoynes' comment to Toby put Toby on notice to find the hidden meaning, but Toby's known to be politically paranoid, so while he might go down the rabbit hole, Leo's experience usually serves him well to keep Toby from chasing ghosts. That's why he was proud of Toby. Despite his several dismissals, Toby figured it out when Leo wasn't even looking for it. That's why(at least in my head canon), Toby got 'promoted' from the China "Aegis Destroyers' Topic to the 'Bartlet Psychosis' Topic in the later chess episode. He'd proven to Leo he was getting to that level of political awareness, even if he wasn't quite as practiced at it as Leo was.

The small details like the episode starting where Stackhouse Filibuster left off was GENIUS 😎

Not "classically good looking" but sexy because he can act his butt off. His talent makes him über sexy

Did not realize this was a bottle episode but it makes perfect sense now. Gorgeous

Limited resources are often a great boon to creativity!

It does show how telling a good story is better than a lot of bells and whistles to stop people from noticing how thin the story is!

the episode 2 cathedrals i have just never seen better

well when you can't rely on props you have to concentrate on dialogue

My favorite season 😁

YES. THIS. ALL OF THIS!

Brilliant observation my friend

I loved Bartlett, I adored Sam... But Toby Zeigler is my Spirit Animal!

love this analysis

there is nothing quiet about Toby

given the direction of tv show making today, I'd say it's in the top 3 and will stay there for eternity. Name me any shows that are better or on the same level. Avatar, depending on if you grew up watching that, maybe. I don't even consider the American House of Cards on the same level, as entertaining as it is.

The rhythmic bouncing of the ball is like the tell-tale heart, a ticking clock of the time running out on the deception and the last of the administration's innocence. You can run and you can hide, but the truth will always, ALWAYS find you in the end.

Great during the Aaron Sorkin seasons (first 4, I believe). Afterwards, not nearly as well done.

@@JourneyBold but still great television

The cadence of Toby's ball against the wall is very Tell-Tale Heart... the secret lurking underneath the floorboards, driving the culprit insane with its presence. And he can never be free of it, because he's always waiting for the other shoe to drop.

Everything about it was magnificent!

@@JourneyBold Even without Sorkin, it was still a good show. I’d definitely take it over anything out today. But yes during the Sorkin seasons, it was peak TV

bob brady Totally agree.

LOL. I can relate to this; I'm pretty much the same way. If you tell me that something is on a "need to know basis" and I needn't bother, I'm gonna' figure that I NEED TO KNOW and start digging!

the ball bouncing makes me think about House MD tv series for some reason

This American agrees with you 100%. The writing and acting are brilliant. It's so real (revealing how the "sausages are made" in government) and at the same time pure fantasy (if only real dialogue were this sharp and people in government were this noble) but such great characters and stories -- Sorkin makes it work brilliantly.

But you guys had In The Thick Of It.

I did not appreciate it the first few times I watched the series. I think as I've grown older and experienced the world more the way Schiff carries the character feels like more and more remarkable.

He's a brilliant "eye" actor. The scene when he confesses to CJ about being the leak about the space shuttle is so beautiful.

All because no one told him that there was a reason to keep his mouth shut, whereas he HAD been told that Bartlett would not run for a second term.

@@Egilhelmson I’ve been thinking about this episode now that there’s so much debate about Biden not running for a second term, etc. It hits me how big a deal that would be. In fairness to Hoynes, I can appreciate his frustration with Bartlet keeping his health a secret -- especially if Bartlet hadn’t planned on serving two full terms. Having a lame duck president for almost a full year is never ideal.

Hi. We are here right now in it. I am from the future.​@@ThePlayTyperGuy

Imagine a film by Scorsese, screenplay by Sorkin and BSO by Zimmer. Insta ocars-winning.

+Dennis Cassley He says "team of oxen" but yes, a great dialogue.

It's a good sounding line, I agree. But...what would it really take to "stop a team of oxen"? They are a "team"; so they're bound up and hooked up to a wagon or plough. Oxen are the ones managed by a ring in their noses...not sure if that's used by the wagoneer. But...about 100-200 pounds (total guesstimate) of pull on the reins might stop a team of oxen. Hardly tonnage required.

He also says 'the total tonnage'.

I reread the thread when Granny Shanny​ posted. I realized my example above was flawed. Either abused the point or "cheated" to disagree. (Perhaps Strawman fallacy). But his analogy wasn't apt. He was talking, I believe, about the force needed to counteract a powerful force exerted in one direction. The pull needed to stop them depends on the part of them you're pulling on. All harness was invented to give man leverage over more powerful animals. Nose rings. Bits between the teeth. Etc. If your line is attached to a nose ring, you have ... Leverage. Stops a powerful animal's momentum with a small tug on delicate tissue. Less so for shoulder harness. And so on. So unless the point was that a similar form of leverage was available... Or even built in... I think it was just a busy mind reaching for a visual example of large force being counteracted. Not factoring the rest in. Then just moving on. He speaks a lot. And usually very well (or catches, acknowledges and laughs at the slip).

Dennis Cassley josh did once Leo did

+John Doe And Josh, but only when he was suffering post traumatic disorder xD

+John Doe And C.J. sometimes

+John Doe I'd refine your argument a little. I'd say that Toby was the only one who was Bartlet's intellectual equal. I don't think Leo needed to be that to be a superb Chief of Staff to him; Leo was a tough warrior and smart enough to help him navigate through the choppy waters. It didn't matter that he didn't understand economics as well as Bartlet.

And Josh in that one episode where he lost his s#it in the Oval. ;)

And Ellie.

Soldier4USA2005 Same episode. Schiff should have won his second straight Emmy, and would have except for Josh getting shot.

Jamie Whitfield If you watch some interviews about the last season, Schiff says that Toby would never do such a thing. By that point, Sorkin had left the show and it was being written by other writers.

+Jamie Whitfield - CJ asked Toby if his brother ever mentioned 'another shuttle' Toby said sometimes, oblique mentions when he wanted to lord it over him. If Toby had gone to Greg Brock with that, it wouldn't have been enough evidence to print the story. She then says wouldn't your brother have wanted that shuttle to come to his aid if he was on the ISS? Toby said no, he would have died. CJ suggests that is wrong, but at the same time has just confirmed the existence of the shuttle to Toby. That could be read by the audience (and Toby) that he was being sounded out as a believable leak while having his suspicions of a military shuttle confirmed by the Chief of Staff. If CJ was confirming what he suspected, he could have taken that as his cue to leak. Toby was my guy in the West Wing, I agree with Richard Schiff, he would never have unilaterally hurt the president. The President, CJ and Toby were all troubled by the incident, weren't clear with each other and things snowballed from there. I've gone from hating this episode to loving it. It's a tale of spinning secrets and half conversations having dramatic and unintended conclusions. Such is the secrecy about this Shuttle that the President can't talk straight with CJ, so she gets the wrong idea; She can't talk straight with Toby, and the message (if there was one) gets mixed up yet again. Toby does what he thinks is wanted of him, leaks it and then falls on his sword when it explodes. Somewhere between Bartlett and Toby the message got mixed. It's what happens when you "play with live ammunition" as Sam once said. Remember later when Toby is being grilled by the lawyer - You weren't supposed to have that information, just say it was your brother who told you! End of. Toby refuses - because it was CJ who confirmed it's existence. Why would she do that, unless to pass it on.

+Jamie Whitfield I never bought that story arc. The show was in it's twilight, Sorkin had left several seasons back, and the writers were looking to inject some drama. Schiff himself disagreed stongly with the direction his character took, but went along with it because that is what professional actors do. It didn't take away from the fact that he had a greater understanding of this character he played for 7 seasons than the writers at the time, and he stated inequivocably that Toby would never have betrayed the President in such a way.

+Soldier4USA2005 And even then despite that, it was, and probably still is, a better written show than most of the current crop of dramas with only a few exceptions.

The whole thing is on Netflix

Eugene Grewing Not the same. Some things just deserve your money.

jesusthroughmary I'm sure Netflix paid them plenty.

Eugene Grewing Not to mention that, knowing Netflix, they could be gone next month.

This is the Inspiration for SCANDAL ! SHONDA SAID BESTY BEERS had a ahah moment!

"You're a good father, you don't have to act like it. You're a good man, you don't have to act like it. You're the President, you don't have to act like it. You're not plain spoken. You're not just folks. Do not, do not.. do not act like it. Make this election about smart, and not... Make it about engaged, and not. Qualified, and not. Make it about a heavyweight. You're a heavyweight.." This would just run around and around in my head in 2016 leading up to the election.. and after Trump was elected.. I must of watched West Wing 4-5 times all the way through.. just for the escape.

@@SkywalkerSamadhi The two Bartletts: The Professor and Uncle Fluffy.

What bothered him was the idea that Leo might have been running the country and the President had a diagnosis that could make it impossible to carry out his duties. The third issue in order of priority was the lack of a letter being signed...a stupid part of the American system to be honest. Toby really couldn't care less he was out of the loop in that context.

Note as well: One other person who figured things out, with some hints from Zoey about things to look out for and to call the First Lady if he sees them, was Charlie, much to the surprise of Leo and Bartlett. Charlie is very smart himself =D

I didn’t know that charlie knew it with hints from zoey. Which episode do they reveal this?

@@boostbeetle true, although in the case of Charlie, ge had access to information Toby didn't have. Not that Charlie's deduction isn't a good one, but Toby worked it out just from subtle moves made by Hoynes.

+Wes Y The West WIng was one of the shows that really revolutionized the way television was shot and edited in the early part of the 21st century.

They come with HATS!

I was just going to post the same thing! :)

TWW had some great sound moments. I always think about the use of New York Minute.

Tash Garner the beauty of how this show transcends politics and is just damn good drama. This series sparked my interest in US politics and to this day I’m still obsessed with. I use to watch it and not have a clue about what they were talking about and now I do lol.you beautiful baby must be five now🙋‍♀️g

The thing is, when Leo goes "I wouldn't give it a lot of thought" I always think "...oops." He says it a liiiittle too casually, especially knowing who he's talking to. Like, that's not a good way to get Toby to stop thinking about something. (To be fair, I'm not sure what would be.) The next scene, when Toby gets a more stonewall answer from him and Toby kind of grinds his teeth and goes "okay...", is when Toby really KNOWS that Leo is part of it. But I think that moment, when Leo tries to just cut off the conversation a bit too quickly, that's the moment a part of Toby realizes Something Is Seriously Wrong. Anyway, not criticizing Leo, he did the best he could in the face of Toby's stubborn doggedness. I just love the way these two play off each other!

Real brinkmanship. Two old political pros. What's unspoken is truly what fuels the increasing tension and drama.

Susan Tuckett Won an Emmy for it and also Richard Schiff said he cried every take after they cut cameras from the funeral.

Can’t believe only 16 votes. The funeral scene is the best Toby ever. Brings me to tears.

I would say that he was the best, he was so subtle and yet he could convey so much emotion

The scene where CJ Gregg goes into his office to console him after his brother's death was absolutely phenomenal. Completely believable and heartbreaking besides. He balances overt prickliness with subdued warmth and walks that line effortlessly. It's actually hard to watch, he is just that good.

I think they are all competent actors, but it was the writing that set it apart. You could have Brando, DeNiro, Hoffman, and Streep and whoever you like, but unless the script is superior, you're going to have a mediocre show. I think Janney and Sheen are the best actors of the bunch. Sheen's career was already made, so it was a stop on the road for him. Of Janney, Whitford, Schiff, Hill, and everyone else, Janney's career is the one which went stratospheric. Schiff hasn't been in much, and Whitford and Hill stay busy. Compared to most TV actors, though, they're all doing well better than average. Most TV actors lucky enough to get a gig on a hit show just disappear after it ends. Anybody remember Richard Karn?

blackhawkswincup2010 Richard Schiff actually been busy he is on the ABC show The Good Doctor since the show started in 2017 as Dr. Aaron Glassman

Regifloat He still is . It was a cast of best actors riffing off of each other's excellence. Whenever he is in something I make a point of watching. He is also a really nice human being. My daughter worked as a PA on the show and, as everyone left on the day the show wrapped, he thanked her by name.

That...I never caught until you just pointed it out. Damn.

Aaron Sorkin is just that good a writer, dude! There's a thousand things like this that I'm sure I haven't spotted yet, and I've rewatched TWW maybe 5 times through. It's unbelievably layered and filled with symbolism.

Brilliant observation and very well put.

Thank you. What always struck me about this scene is the way it demonstrates the truly staggering genius intellect of Toby Ziegler. Everyone else had to be told. He *figured it out*. And it wasn't just the Hoynes trip. Plenty of other people saw that and saw the connection to reelection, but even that alone wasn't enough (because otherwise he'd have just assumed what they did: that Hoynes was being Hoynes, the consummate ambitious dickhead). It was the little details that didn't fit right. Toby is an obsessive-compulsive type, you often see him in scenes picking and flicking at loose threads on his clothes. Fussy. So these little details, these cracks in the wallpaper of Leo's deception, just kept nagging at him and he HAD to figure it out. He couldn't just let it go. Which is why he *did* figure it out. :)

Minor detail but it's not Stackhouse being interviewed. It's one of the senators who came on to the floor to give Stackhouse a break. And I don't think Toby cared for one second about the filibuster. He was too focused on Hoynes to care what was happening with a bill in the Senate. It just so happened that the TV in Toby's office was tuned to the filibuster.

Yes. That was his finest moment.

It's very fine, but I would give toppest marks to [spoiler] Zoey at the club, the kidnapping, Leo running for the first and only time in the series to tell his friend his daughter has been taken, the dropped tumbler and the blood-drained look Bartlett gives his wife.

It’s the only time they did a fast passage of time that didn’t feel clunky.

They stole the idea for "House".

Peter Formaini “And the walls come tumbling down.”

Neither did I until now