I find it so funny that I’ve been watching your content since you made videos about your top 5 Disney villain deaths and now you make political content which is exactly the kind of content I’ve grown up to watch 😂

And an as a black anarchist i'm positive we all HAVE to work together. I promise you. 🙏🏾

I found your channel via Hasan. As an outsider, it's refreshing to hear black voices. Keep sharing your thoughts and being nuanced.

This is how the left needs to discuss and disagree. There is too much toxic, regressive infighting.

It is refreshing seeing response videos that aren't breaking down a response-reaction of someone screaming. I actually feel like I am learning something than just being fed common sense.

As a black man I do see what you are saying but I do run into a lot of black people that lean left that do focus too much "what are you going to directly do for us" but I like the Bernie approach of finding a way to help black people by lifting everyone up first. Cause I'm not sure how we thought Biden was going to help raise us up if Bernie wasn't. Bernie had way more helpful policies.

“People don’t have time for your revolution, people need to eat.” I have never felt anything harder in my life

This is the only political channel I genuinely like and admire. Even when I don't agree with something I still see the merit of the conversation or what's being said, I feel like too many people are focused on being "right". It makes me happy that even though you disagree with what Hasan says you're like "I can see the value in this" which is a sentiment more people should share.

As a black socialist I have a hard time understanding how some socialist can see that class solidarity can exist without tackling issues of race, gender identity, and sexuality.

I actually subbed to you cause Hasan reacted to your video. Been a Hasanabi viewer for a bit and I like your content

The chat is not a monolith, the doomerfrogs are just the most active, I think all the love that came your way in chat was genuine.

This isn't a disagreement per se, but I just had a thought when you said "People don't have time to wait for your revolution." It can also be spun on its head, and people can say "People don't have time to wait for your incremental changes." After all, the thing about incremental changes is that they're small, that they don't change everything that needs to be changed and leave some people behind. And when the people get left behind, they die. And no amount of future improvements will ever bring them back or make it up to them. Which also goes for revolution. A future revolution won't bring back the people lost today. If I had to prescribe something, it would be that I think the best way forward is to do both, to take increments where they're available, and to push for big leaps, and be ready to take advantage of them when they become possible. Every chance at revolution we miss means so many people being lost forever. I didn't fully embrace this idea until this year, when I became aware of just how apocalyptically bad the climate change situation is. I'm 26 now, and it has been my key issue for years, I thought it was the most important issue the whole time, I'm a STEM PhD student, I THOUGHT I knew enough... but I didn't. It was worse than I'd allowed myself to think. We have 6 years to stop climate change reaching a devastating tipping point that will likely kill hundreds of millions of people in only decades. Global capitalism still hasn't fixed the problem, in over 50 years. In fact, it's worse than ever. Our carbon emissions are at an all time high. We ARE making incremental improvements, but they're not big or fast or often enough.

This is a great video, not only for the good points raised but because it's nice to see discourse on the left that is actually seeking to inform, is constructive, and is done in good faith, rather than people just trying to tear each other down in order to be the last Highlander on the hill. I just want to offer my perspective on some of Hasan's comments as someone who's watched both of you for some years now, though. Hasan isn't a class reductionist. I've heard him repeat many times on many occasions that it's not simply enough to say to Black people, or any other marginalized group, "let's fix this economy first and _then_ we'll get to your grievances". In fact, the only group of people he recommends taking that approach with is white people who hesitate to unite in solidarity because of "cultural" issues. He says to tell them "You want healthcare? Shut up about trans people." lol While he was reacting to the last video, he said that he considers it a shame that, due in large part to media interference by his assessment, Black people don't feel connected to messaging about economic policies even though they would be among the largest portion of people directly benefited by them. He thinks it's actually pretty messed up that people have been conditioned to only hear things like criminal reform, legalizing weed, and a few other issues as "our issues", and I understand and agree with him there because I believe he recognizes that as another tool to keep alienating major populations from one another, a way to keep people from recognizing they have common struggles and a common oppressor, and I see it that way as well. However as I said before, because I've watched so many hours of his content and have a kind of aggregate understanding of his view on these topics, I didn't take it as him saying in any way that it's either wrong for individual communities to have their own unique issues they prioritize, nor is it wrong to address those unique concerns, he only wants it to be addressed authentically. As an example, he is a strong advocate for reparations, and he has explained that it's not mainly because of the economic effect they would have, because he thinks there would need to be way more economic reform plus community and social program reform to truly bring the Black population to parity. He's said he supports reparations because he feels it's the right thing to do to help heal a grievous injury, and the only real way Black people could ever start to trust in institutions and feel as though society is _really_ changing and that we have _really_ been recognized as people. Basically he sees it as the only real way to start to close the schism both culturally and economically between Black people and the rest of the population. Also, at the 2020 postmortem of Bernie's campaign Hasan did talk about how he thought Bernie's messaging had been weak in many areas. While the campaign was on, and all the media started talking about Bernie having an issue with voters of color, I recall him, towards the later part of the campaign, acknowledging that and saying that Bernie needed to strengthen his messaging there. So while I think in the moment of him reacting to the video he may not have agreed with those particular examples, I don't think he would be totally resistant to the idea those examples were meant to support. I just wanted to share my view on those couple of things, though I hope it didn't come across as me speaking for Hasan; it's just the way I perceived things with the information I have. I also hope this doesn't come across as a way of rebutting anything or of being defensive. I only wanted to share this because I see this as an actually good conversation between two creators I really respect and I think it's worthwhile to add more information to it in hopes of clarifying and maybe helping keep this kind of healthy discourse growing. Lastly though, and this is just me speaking for me, in no way related to Hasan, but, as a Black person myself, I do disagree with that perception of Bernie talking about his time with Dr. King. The way I see it, being willing to go out in the trenches and actually risk your life to fight for the rights of your fellow man is something real and tangible. He went out there, knowing that people were being mauled by dogs and beaten to death, and he got injured when he got blasted with fire hoses, and he got arrested and spent time in jail. And it wasn't just on that one occasion, but him being there on that occasion, when the fair weather was far gone, mattered. I'm sorry but, that is in no way shape or form the same type of tokenism as when some oblivious, privileged person says "I have Black friends". They say that because they have no idea what minorities go through and they use that as a shield so they don't ever _have_ to know. That's not what he did. He went there so he _would_ know. Plus he's Jewish so it isn't like he hasn't felt the effects and doesn't have his own stakes here when it comes to fighting White Supremacy. So while personally I consider it a bit disrespectful to downplay it, more importantly I think you do yourself the bigger disservice by it. If you believe people should fight for every inch of improvement we can get, as you said in the video, then you have to be willing and able to recognize the difference between a person who's willing to walk the walk and one who's nothing but talk. Even if it's a small gesture, right now it means everything if it's a _real_ one. If I were to say Bernie joining that march was nothing of substance, then I'd have to say that about all the white people who've been marching alongside us in recent years, and I just don't think that's right or smart. Anyway sorry for such a huge essay of a comment, I just really wanted to share my thoughts on these things and add to the discussion in a way I hoped would be (mostly, lol) constructive.

actually a trailblazer, you are TJ. I want more leftists to do these type of reactions, I want to see people discuss actual policy and ideology and brainstorm about making the world a better place and less angry reactions to shit. i loved this video so much!!

as a fan of both of you it was refreshing to see the intersection of your ideas and the respectful, civil convo around them :)

While "burn it all down and start over" is a popular chorus online, it's a really reductive way of thinking about revolutionary politics. Revolutionary politics just means organizing outside the electoral/legislative sphere, an arena that fundamentally advantages the wealthy and powerful. That means community organizing around healthcare, housing, reproductive justice, social justice issues, etc. It also means being active in the labor movement. It's about a lot more than just yelling "revolution" or "general strike." A lot of revolutionaries are feeding people through mutual aid, for example. Edit: Otherwise both videos on this topic have been very good. I'm always interested to hear how the socialist movement can be improved, and this is an area where a lot of growth and correcting past mistakes are necessary.

Of course Hasan is going to react to your reaction to his reaction, but I agree with other comments that it'd be great to see you have a conversation. I believe he's already going to have FD on stream so you two definitely have mutual contacts.

I love both of y'all's stuff and am really enjoying this. I'd love to see y'all talk in real time

I'd love to see you two sit down and talk this through. Like watching you both... Solidarity

I watch Hasan pretty often and what I think he was getting at is that politics in and of itself is a game of pandering and when addressing identity politics, it’s even more so. The optics and messaging of it is super tricky when trying to be genuine. This is especially true when a guy like Bernie Sanders tries to relate to the African American Community.

I think the baffling thing is that while a lot of the points being made about Sanders are right, the person who beat him in the primary is basically worse. Like here you mention that black people know when they're being pandered to, but the democratic party has been pandering for years. It doesn't explain why Biden would be supported because if anything, he's been worse on race than Sanders (who admitted that his messaging and focus wasn't the best initially).

I'm glad that both you and Hasan are speaking truth and moving the dialogue towards very insightful politics. I think it's important that we view Bernie Sanders and his politics critically. So we can learn and hopefully create a better blueprint to the path forward. I think having these discussions is important to understanding which way is the best method of creating solidarity between race/class divides and addressing the specific needs of specific groups in our collective activism. I think Bernie and other progressives view race and class as the offspring of the same root of destructive capitalism. The same mechanisms and machinery used to oppress one group, oppresses us all. Which I think is fair. I think you could argue that class is much older than race. Because the idea that certain individuals should have wealth and others should be impoverished far predates the idea of there being different "races" of people. Across all of human history, wealth and power mostly get concentrated at the top of the class hierarchy and the people who aren't of that class find ways to restructure that power and wealth. The idea of "race" was only introduced to further the goal of concentrating power and wealth to a specific class. In America, wealth and class become linked when chattel slavery is introduced and the systems created from that origin get more advanced. You could argue that Black people at every economic class are dealing with structurally racist institutions. Which is why wealthy Black people do not have the same privileges or successful outcomes as wealthy non-Black people. The same is true for lower income Black people. If you treat race and class separately there are important details that are missed. But if you can stop the machinery of class (capitalism) you can (in theory) help upend the system of racism right along with it. For example, if you raise the wage, Black people who earn wages raise with it. If you defund the police, you stop the biggest mechanism of criminalizing poor Black people. I think it's all connected. If we can unravel capitalism's death grip on our political systems, we can take the teeth out of structural racism.

I love seeing people who are so genuine and thoughtful discuss these things. The one thing that really frustrates me about Biden getting more support from Black Americans is that supposedly they like his "tough on crime" crap and are only recently slowly waking up to the reality that "tough on crime" is killing their kids.

I really truly believe that we can do two things at once. It's an important part of intersectionality that these issues all exist together AND on their own. When it comes to race and class, we can talk about one, the other, or both in tandem, and there are valid reasons to do all three of those things.

Im a hasan-head and have to insta subscribe, glad you gave a reasonable well thought out response, I think I can learn a lot from this channel ✊🏻

5:16 hey that’s me! At the Bernie rally near the top left, black hat/scarf with pink jacket, bouncing around a lot, two rows behind Justin Long (who is very handsome in person). Feels very meta to watch one of T1J’s video and suddenly….. I appear lol

I think you both have a lot in common, it'd be great to see collaboration between you two!

I love this kind of response video. So many video essayists seem to take any opportunity to talk down to every debater/streamer and everyone that watches them, which always ends up leaving a bad taste in everyone’s mouth. It’s especially frustrating because there are some valid points against a lot of streamers and against a lot of video essayists. Critiques like this are actually genuine and seem to come from a place of actually wanting people to learn and get better.

Man I really wish conversations were this cordial and thoughtful across this platform. Great stuff.

I really appreciate hearing your thoughts on his thoughts. (I know reactions of reactions can get rabbit-holey, but this was worth it!) Hearing the continued conversation and different perspectives is helpful for people like myself to understand those outside of their social networks or communities. Really love your channel for that. :)

5:20 This is a common and problematic argument on two levels. One, it's an oversimplification to say that revolutionary socialists want to 'just burn everything down and start over': the task of revolution also includes building dual power, ie, providing robust alternatives to capitalist societal structures to serve the need of regular people. Two, democratic socialists/social democrats have been trying and failing to incrementally transform society using liberal democratic institutions since the 19th century and haven't been able to achieve it. The European countries Bernie wants to emulate built their wealth on the back of the global south, and control of their institutions has ebbed and flowed between liberals, conservatives, and social democrats for decades. Socialist parties on that continent have long since given up on trying to pull society left and basically mimic the liberal parties there. You can see the result pretty plainly: France, under a 'liberal' prime minister, turns away refugees, allowing them to drown in the Atlantic. Italy has a fascist prime minister. Denmark ghettoizes black and brown migrants. It's a losing strategy.

As someone who watches both of you, this makes me wish you two could have a conversation about this (or other things, too). I just feel like it could be more productive if you each had context about each other’s views, since I feel like that colors my understanding of what you both say, but is not the sense I get from watching these reactions

I wish you guys would talk to each other directly because I think it would be a very fruitful and insightful conversation ❤

What do you think of Cornel West though? Because he is about the perfect living example of a distillation of identity issues and a critique of neoliberalism (class consciousness). I think that will be illustrative of your broad opinion here. Cornel is not going to let the status quo off the hook, and modern neoliberal identity politics often does (see Goldman Sachs' Black affinity network).

There is a pretty big blind spot in socialist discourse about identity politics. Namely, that in order to build class solidarity, they must first build class consciousness, which requires by definition working people to identify as working people. In other words, class politics is also a form of identity politics, if you look at it a certain way. You might say, all politics is identity politics, whether partisan, social, or economic. There's an old joke that the biggest stumbling block to socialism taking root in the United States is that Americans don't see themselves as an oppressed proletariat, but as temporarily embarrassed millionaires. This is an identity problem in a sense. So when anti-sjw socialists talk about how identity politics is bad, they mean specifically identities that they don't possess, or deem as important. This is why intersectional socialism is better than class reductionism, in my opinion. Minimizing the unique material conditions of marginalized social groups, who happen to also be workers, is just going to alienate them from your coalition, probably. This, coupled with the fact that there are real historical examples of times where labor victories were not shared equally among social groups, such as the GI Bill, and I totally get why there aren't more black socialists. I don't think it's a lack of education or understanding, as one might assume, rather I think it's exactly due to an understanding of history, and well-founded suspicion of white socialists who "don't see color"

As to the chat: a lot of people aren't saying anything if they're enjoying, just lurking, then when they see you show up they show you love.

Was a bit surprised and worried when I saw the thumbnail, (definitely a bit click-baity) but I've been a watcher for a few years now and trusted that you'd tackle whatever it was y'all were disagreeing about with maturity and insight. Glad I was right ^_^ great vid as always!

I think the point of centering a class politics above an “identity politics” is that it creates vectors of solidarity that cross boundaries of race, ethnicity, gender, sex, and really anything else that an identity politics does not. I am a cishet white boy from the Midwest, and could easily fall into a Qanon/MAGA hole, but I don’t I think because a class politics allows me to see that my own oppression and exploitation as a worker is a shared experience with all other forms of oppression and exploitation. It is in my personal self-interest to support rights and protections for Black people, Native Americans, immigrants, women, and LGBTQ. Not *just* because those are good things, but because they would benefit *me*. And also, what do I care what demographic category my boss falls under? They’re still exploiting me. A Black worker and a white worker have more in common with each other, and have more to gain by struggling together in solidarity, than either have with an owner, regardless of their race.

This isn’t meant to be a generalized judgement on Hasan‘s character or anything but I think he genuinely doesn’t know how it feels when someone who is not part of your community drops what they have done for your community in the past. I think he has never experienced that (due to his privilege) and that’s why he didn’t get what you were getting at and just said „But it’s true tho“. I am not black but as a disabled person I immediately knew what you meant. I had many situations in which able-bodied people told me about the most basic things that they have done for a disabled person before or outright saying things like „I have no problem with working with my disabled co-worker.“ which is so weird and honestly the biggest red flag to me. On the other hand I have to say that I kind of understand that Bernie brought it up tho. A political debate or Q&A or whatever that kind of format is called is different from an everyday interaction and I understand why he wanted people to know that (I think his goal was to show that he has been an ally to black people for a long time and that he isn’t just all talk no action). But I agree with you that it wasn’t relevant to the question and I understand every black person who didn’t like that. Hasan probably can‘t relate to the feeling tho.

I’ve been a long time fan of Hasan and I agree with your critiques as a black woman socialist. Good video! HasL

I’d love to see you guys have a conversation. I think a lot of good would come from it

re: MLK marching 6:18 -- I think the intention was to show that he would be a good leader on these issues because he's not new to these issues, he has a track record, a track record that goes back to when he was marching with King. He isn't responding to new movements, he was there all along.

This is the response videos we need! Great discussion!

I see it as a yes and conversation. Yes, focusing on class will only get us so far, just like focusing on race will do the same, but it's ingeral to keep having this conversations so we can try to do both at the same time, where we can. I do think it's crucial for people to do their own personal work in trying to unlearn their biases though or else I have a hard time seeing how that won't seep into even socialist policy? But thats a bridge we aren't at yet 🤷🏿‍♀️ Great video!

I didn't "get" your first video, but I did get this one! Thanks to @HasanAbi for making a good counterargument and thank you for taking those arguments in good faith :)

"It feels like you're not listening." Thank you. I feel like an underappreciated part of your content is your service in articulating feelings which aids in pinpointing communication breakdowns.

Oh, very clever lead in to the advertisement. Nicely played.

I think there is also a failure of the socialist to acknowledge racism as a class component, and historical class betrayal when there has been coalitions in the past. Also there is little support and solidarity when the issues are uniquely black issues. These are the reasons we want to hear leaders speak directly to us, as it is easy to dismiss black issues and historically unpopular in policy to help black people. Black want to see if this is understood, and who is willing to not abandon us at the first deal.

Most of the time when chat isn't provoking him he can be quite thoughtful, been watching both of you for a while and love your content

@07:30 Al sharpton and Clarence Thomas were pretty active in their day too but I definitely don’t want either of them as my president. 😂

So it’s two people who no one in the adult world has ever heard of offering observations about things they are not remotely qualified to address.

14:56 you're right and you need to keep saying it. A lot of people would consider me a Socialist/Communist (I do not consider myself that--but it is a reasonable thought to have). I try to tell folks that class and race are mutually constitutive (as with any other identity based oppression) but folks have their ideas and just like me, are emotionally tied to them so my words fall on deaf ears.

Always love listing to what you say. Thank you

These Twitch streamers who react to videos as they play rather than after they've watched them really annoy me. It's such a disingenuous way to engage with someone's content.

I'm glad this video was in my suggested - I'm not done yet so I don't know if this came up, but I'd love to see you two have a live dialogue if both parties are open to it, someday

This exchange went better than I thought. Great video

Being willing to fight for Civil Rights before it became popular is actually a pretty good sign someone would be a good president. If a history of actual practice isn't good enough, and saying the right things about criminal justice reform and systemic racism is avoiding discussion on race... what can anyone do to show they are a politician who cares about the concerns of the black community? It seems like a catch 22: say the right things and its pandering, mention doing the right things and its worse pandering.

Why are those two ideas at 15:50 mutually exclusive? Can't class solidarity benefit black people while we also recognize that racism goes beyond it and must be addressed in some regards separately?

I think the race x class framing misses the point that these two are heavily intertwined. The average Black American owns 10 cents for every dollar owned by the average White American. However, that doesn't mean there aren't specific issues that affect black people or that no wealthy black person exists. I think the main effort by socialists should be showing that all working class people have more in common than not and creating class solidarity that would allow issues that affect specific groups (such as black, latin and indigenous people, women, LGBTQ+ people and etc.) to be supported by ALL working class people, not just those directly affected by it. There are many examples in history of such interclass solidarity, but it has to be something socialists pay attention to, not something relegated to after a supposed revolution or something. A better world is possible and we have to start building it today!

Identity isn't bs, even if Identity politics is. White power marches are all about Identity. So I think you have a point. Socialists have been bad for not addressing issues of race and gender, and wonder why folks don't join their cause. I do empathize with the "you don't want to hear about how privledge you are if you are suffering under capitalism." Believe me, I am like "I can't have trauma or have it bad, Black and Indigenious folks are having it worse." I know about gas lighting yourself into thinking you have no problems cause you are privledged, and how that ironically can make you more defensive of your privledge. But like. MLK had speeches about socialist redistribution of wealth, specifically cause of the wealth white folks denied Black ones. People say "pronouns are pandering," but like. My mom was telling me of a story, tonight, about someone's kid almost getting assaulted at work because they were trans. Like. People want to hurt us. People are signing bills to target us, specifically. How can that not matter to me? How can anti-Blackness not matter to you? So. I mean. Yeah. There are some things we have in common, class wise. But the differences matter, too. You will face shit I will not have too. And like. Pronouns and shit probably won't impact you personally, but it could be life or death for someone else. I think just writting off Identity misses why alt rights (often white, and men), focus on. Well. Being white, and men. To miss Identity completely, won't solve everything. And while we wait, people need to eat. Even the Black Panthers fed people. Jesus fed people. Lol. Like. While we wait for revolution, we can miss the most radical acts of all. I get being tired of Identity politics. But like. Identity, and who we are, is not a completely ignorable piece of the puzzle. I am white. I am trans. Both of those affect both the ups and downs, what shit I go through and what I don't. And what you go through and you don't, being a Black guy. It's not completely removable. So. I think you have a point.

I'm a regular Hank Pecker watcher and I really liked your video (I've been watching it before Hasan watched it on his stream) I'm also aware of my blindspots and also Hasan's on this topic, especially me because I don't live and never lived in the states. But I have to admit, that there's always an education process going, while watching your and other content creators videos. So I watched his reaction with a relatively open mind and was kinda curios, what you were thinking about his commentary. I really like your approach here and doing the video like you did here and thanks for your work in general. I can learn so much from you and your content!

7:19 it's indicative of his life long history of fighting injustice and inequality. I feel like Bernie's point is that he'll be a good president for black people because he's not just suddenly not racist because it fell out of fashion; he's been not racist back to when Joe Biden was saying that desegregation would create a racial jungle.

This is really great as always, I really appreciate the levelheaded and chill approach of this channel

Love this exchange. This isn’t an argument. Not a debate. It’s a LIGHT disagreement, handled like men. Good shit. 🫡

The point of slowly moving towards socialism inside a capitalist regime is not considered within marxist-leninist groups because that just would not work as the dominant class won't, and historically have not, allow that to happen. The only way to make socialism happen is through revolution and that does not necessarily mean "burn everything down and start from scratch", that's idealism. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I get the impression you might lack a bit of understanding on how a socialist revolution would actually unfold (which is ok and actually nobody knows really how it would be, but we do have past revolutions to draw from). It's not "unpractical" because it's already been done multiple times. And yes, people's problems are urgent and present and that's why communists should fight for rights and for the well being of the population within capitalism as well. The point is those problems are not going to fully go away without a revolution as capitalism does not let these problems be eradicated and socialism ALLOWS us to walk towards a society with less and less contradictions.

*Absolutely lost me* @ the "that you marched for civil rights, when it was dangerous and you had no personal benefit from it is unrelated to wether you will be a good president for black people" . Yes, it is in fact important to see wether someones convictions are deeply anti-racist and humanitarian, when it actually counts. What kind of argument was that?

We need to focus on the work! Great closing message.

i think that oppressions like racism, sexism, homophobia, transphobia, ableism, etc are things that, well, create classes and divide class solidarity. so it's impossible to advance the goals of socialism without caring about and addressing these issues too, because you won't build *enough* solidarity if you can tolerate oppressive attitudes amongst your base, if you aren't actively anti-oppression. absolutely, liberation from capitalism is a tide that will lift all boats. but so is liberation from oppressive systems of race, gender, etc - these systems dehumanize EVERYONE, but because they hurt specific groups the most, we owe it to the cause to care for marginalized folks and protect them. so yes, socialism can help everyone no matter their identities, but also systems of oppression are baked into capitalism and uphold our current status quo, so we won't be able to get to socialism without addressing these issues together. i feel like this is what people miss when they talk dismissively about identity politics - they're absolutely right that surface-level shows of inclusion and individualist mindsets don't break down systems; however, the response should be to imagine tackling the big systems of oppression that work in tandem with the big system of capital. we should STILL care about issues of race, gender, etc, but while expanding our lens to examine institutions and processes too.

Bernie organizing within the civil rights movement wouldn't have made him a better president, but Biden writing racist bills back in the day is better for us now. Got it 👌🏾 Plus, as someone else pointed out it's weird to imply a Jewish dude doesn't have a an understanding of the impacts of white supremacy.

I’ve never met anyone who “just wants to burn everything down” and I feel like that’s a strawman/boogeyman deployed by the establishment

I think Bernie bringing up the fact that he marched with MLK was to say: "I'm not just saying it's important to me because it's popular to do so now. I marched during a time where it was not the popular or safe opinion to say you wanted black rights. " It's like if someone asks if you you've heard of a band and you tell them you used to tour with the band.

This is such a valuable exchange. This is Revolution podcast talks about these issues regularly if anyone wants to delve deeper.

I like your coverage of this. I like ya both, and this was a well balanced coverage. Hasan has blindspots, but you were very good in your critiques.

Loved the video. I wanted to chime in with what I think is the best case that class > race when wanting to think about how to change society for the better. If you focus on just race, you don't end up changing the fundamental structure of society, you just get a more diverse ruling class. If you focus on class, you have the ability to change the whole system permanently by giving power to the people who can cause the system to grind to a halt at will (workers).

I really enjoy this conversation style reaction, it’s something i want to see a lot of of on lefttube

These are actually the best arguments I've seen Hassan make, I don't agree with him on a lot (i'm not a socialist), but he was very put together this time and spoke clearly and mostly kind in his speech, which he doesn't usually do in what I've seen, usually, he just insults, says "bruh" a lot and repeats himself nonstop, he did really well here, I'll give him that

7:25 I still think that comparison doesn‘t make sense. One is just saying „I have a black friend“ more like as a prop. If Sanders would have said something like „I met MLK“ or something like that, then it would be similar. However, he is saying something different. What he is saying is that he understood and supported the struggle even back then, he is saying he would be a good president for black people not because he knew MLK but because he supports the same political ideals as he did. It is not merely association with MLK, it genuinely is believing in and supporting the same things and actively participating to achieve these goals. It is nothing like „having a black friend“. 13:50 Even from here, I still don‘t really get it. Yeah, Sanders seems to think of discrimination in general as highly intersectional and would likely try to not just pass specific laws to fight only one part of it. He would likely try to pass laws to slowly change the common materials issues arising from discrimination and the underlying causes of it. I think that is a totally valid way to think about it.

I don't think the movement to end class oppression should be separated from the movement to end racial oppression. For one, because they are not separate. Racism is used as a smoke screen to continue class division. And, whilst it is not a strict parallel, racism was used by American Suffragettes to further their own gains. And that stuck within American feminism for decades and one could still argue it lingers today.

6:30 to drive home utterly pointless it is that Sanders went to an MLK march literally 60 years ago is, I'd like to point out that Mitch McConnell went to the same protests. I'm not evoking this dude to imply that Sanders is secretly evil or w/e, I just want to make it clear that a good gesture that occurred six decades ago is irrelevant to what he's doing or proposing in the current year. On another note, Sanders thinking "I, a hwite person, liked MLK before it was cool" would play well with Black voters is frankly embarrassing and tone deaf. It sounds like a line out of a Jordon Peele movie. That his supporters think it it's impressive flex speaks volumes to how they just... don't interact with Black people AT ALL.

I think the Bernie comment is very strange. In my mind what he's saying is "instead of just starting off saying that "I will do X to make it better" (which is something anyone can do) I will show that I'm not just putting on a mask to pretend to care about these issues, but that I have cared about these issues since my youth." Shouldn't that inspire more confidence? Show that he actually believes in the things that he's saying? That he feels connected to these ideas? In almost any other scenario talking about something you have an interest in and have participated in the past would be seen as a show of genuine interest, am I wrong? Comparing it to "I have a black friend" feels very reductive. Especially since I doubt that that was the end of his answer

I feel that most people here would benefit from visiting Europe where democratic socialism is the norm. The tradition of socialism in the US has tended towards revolutionary socialism and extremism. Which tends towards (potentially violent) dismantling traditional family structures, religion etc. That's anathema to many traditional communities, particularly struggling ones. It would be better not to use the word socialism at all, and set out and explain real policy that would positively impact people's lives.

I’ve heard more black socialist narratives (and white allies) talk about how racial and class discrimination and struggle are actually inherently intertwined. I think this at least helps put initiative on white socialists to take it seriously, though I agree there’s definitely additional elements of racial struggle that are distinct

Love these discussions. Great video

Time Stamp 6:53 conceding, "Yes it's true Bernie marched with Dr. King", and then undermining the significance felt a little "off to me". I feel Bernie was providing his receipts and illustrating for his young audience that his fight for justice didn't begin with the rise of iPhone footage of police brutality. He put real skin in the game, and we should not consider this just "pandering" to the youth of today.

About pandering: To me it's like being the kid in class who has no friends. But during P.E. there's that group of kids who feel sorry enough to always pick you for their kickball team. Obviously it's pity move, but at least that's better than the rest of the class who just ridicules you and won't pick you unless the teacher makes them. Like you said, we know we're being pandered to. But at least some groups care enough to pander.

Class and intersectionality need to be treated with equal importance, caving on race/LGBTQ issues to focus on class does a disservice to our comrades and reinforces institutional racism and homophobia. It's tough but we can't make concessions that will hurt marginalized communities for a short term gain.

Did you used to play smash bros? I swear I remember your username from smashboards and we talked about Brawl meta or something (sry, I know this is completely unrelated to the video).

@ 11:43, Hasan basically highlights the issue with Bernie Sanders' messaging among Black people/Black socialists by reiterating the problem with it. The question pertained to racism and criminal justice and he shifted focus to a one-size-fits-all, rising tides lifts all boats approach to the issues we, as Black people, face in this country. Which doesn't work because American society is built around weeding out any positive effects of policy for our community. Take for instance the reactions to both relief for Black farmers (after proving that, for decades, they were omitted from that relief and had to face hostilities that forced Black farmers out of the industry) and student loan forgiveness. The former (relief for Black farmers) met several lawsuits because it was, in the plaintiffs' eyes, unfairly favoring Black farmers who, again, were systemically left out of relief in the first place. This wasn't a color-blind policy move - it was pointed firmly to fix an injustice that negatively and disproportionately affected our community. With student debt relief, this WAS a color-blind attempt that would have a positive effect on aiding Black students who were, disproportionately, affected by predatory lending practices and alleviating the debts they faced for pursuing higher education - apnews.com/article/biden-covid-health-education-07bf5c4ff1928793f01e907a63cafa36#:~:text=Black%20borrowers%20on%20average%20carry,not%20do%20enough%20to%20narrow. And, yet, even when it's color-blind and means tested to all hell, lawsuits came out because it would help Black folks. With that in mind, you can't pivot a question about what you will do for racism and racial justice by shifting to a class-based message without speaking to or on how racism exacerbated those issues. You can't address housing, climate change, employment, education, etc. without understanding and formulating a plan that takes racism into account because we've seen how a race neutral, class-first approach will lead to us being weeded out of the solution in some way.

I felt iffy because of the clickbaity thumbnail, but I really enjoyed your video! I'm a black socialist and pretty big Hasan and Bernie fan lol. But I appreciate your constructive criticism of how Bernie handled his optics when it came to the topic of race. Though Bernie's been mad consistent with his views, I have seen how he talks about race change since his presidential campaign. I genuinely believe he's always trying to do what helps the most people. Also please please please consider chatting with Hasan on stream! I would love to see the kind of conversations you guys have.

I forgot to say something way more important than almost anything I said in my previous comment. I am SO GLAD T1J called out the 2-faced behavior of the chat. A lot of creators have been making videos about how overly white-dominated a lot of the largest leftist spaces are, both off and online, and giving their opinions of why that could be. All I can say is, as a black person in those spaces, a lot of white people who consider themselves leftists really need to see that reality of their behavior when it comes to interacting with POC, and the last video absolutely made most of them show their faces (and it wasn't just in Hasan's viewers, I saw it with other creators' audiences too), and now they need to confront it. Way too often, the moment we're watching a video by a POC, the chat is immediately dismissive, immediately insulting, immediately equivocating. They turn into a mob, it's insane. I've also been seeing lots of stories of how POC feel they get pushed out of places like PSL and DSA all the time, and the stats in the last video showed those organizations also are far lacking in POC membership and representation. White people who consider themselves leftists need to understand that they are making what should be places for education and solidarity actively hostile to POC and POC perspectives because of their unchecked biases. I didn't agree with the assessment of Bernie as just a performative ally, but I DO feel that way about many of the white people in these audiences and other spaces. I think a lot of them feel they're already "doing enough" to be "progressive" by watching leftist content and educating themselves, and that there's nothing more they could possibly be needing to do, and there's no way they could possibly be treating POC badly. But the way they respond to these types of issues being raised in general, and especially if it's by POC creators, is nearly identical to the way racist reactionaries do; immediately seeking to shut it down, invalidate it, or find some other excuse not to listen to it. I was appalled at how many people I saw saying T1J must be "unintelligent" (to put it nicely) or that he must just be another "Socialism bad" hater, one of which is obviously just offensive, and the other of which is not supported in the text by any rational interpretation. As a black viewer, to me that felt exactly the same as if they said "oh he's just a dumb N--". And they _need_ to know that's how that immediate dismissal and backgrounding and rebuffing of POC voices feels to us. The biggest point I wanted them to take away from the other video is that it doesn't matter if they don't think it _should_ be seen that way, or they don't _intend_ it to feel that way, but it DOES, and it DOES work to enforce the hierarchy of an outsized influence of white people in an area where way more POC not only need to be involved but _should_ be involved. I hope it's not too rude to plug a couple of other channels, but for anyone who read this and actually wants to get better about this or learn of some ways of talking about it to other people, I really recommend the video "The Vaush Effect" by Noah Samson (which though it names Vaush in the title is just about the dynamics of how these racial heirarchies get reinforced even in leftists spaces in general and is not only applicable to Vaush but uses footage from him to show examples, and Noah says as much in the intro), and I recommend watching the sections "Identity Politics and Racism" and "The Worst Ones", totaling 15 minutes, from Noah Samson's video "Solving the Debate Bro Problem", which also goes into depth about that dynamic. Lastly I'd also recommend watching Innuendo Studios's latest video, "Alt-Right Playbook: The cost of Doing Business", which talks about how white people tend to center the argument for rights and power around themselves and which of _them_ will get to hold power on behalf of POC, and never around how to directly give POC power themselves, and how they're able to blind themselves to the racism of that because of that framing. I know it's kind of ironic that I recommended two white creators to talk about this but it honestly seems like the people who need to hear the message the most aren't ready to listen to it from the people who need to say it most, but at least at the end of Noah's "Worst Ones" segment he talks about adding a variety of perspectives to your viewing routine and he recommends some creators there. I really hope the white leftist community at large starts listening to this soon. Like I already mentioned, more and more people are speaking out about this, and the rift between leftists of color and white leftists keeps growing every time someone speaks about it and the majority white leftist spaces lash out the way they did in response to T1J's last video and others that have come before it. I've been there as it was happening on many different occasions so I've seen it myself and it bothered me so much that I'm not even a content creator but even _I_ considered trying to make some kind of statement about it. I've been watching communities that call themselves progressive and anti-racist pull a "look what you made me do", basically saying with their actions "if you hadn't said anything ""dumb"" we wouldn't be angry" when for one, they never stop to question whether what's being said is actually unintelligent, as in, not supported by any evidence or reason, or whether they only think it sounds dumb because it's not what they're _used to_ hearing. We can see by the overly white demographic makeup of all these spaces compared to the level of interest expressed in the ideas and policies by POC in the charts T1J showed in the last video that there IS evidence that _something_ is causing POC not to take as big a part in these spaces as it seems like they want to, so that alone should be reason enough to question one's assumptions that the people in these spaces must not be doing anything wrong. So they need to stop meeting these discussions of the issue with immediate anger and mob hatred, and they need to _start LISTENING._ Just listen and evaluate. No matter what, if you are _actually_ a leftist, and you _actually_ want progress and reform, then it should be an inherent part of your goal to create parity for all minorities if you're _actually_ seeking to create societal parity, therefore having as many people take part in your movement as possible should be a direct goal too. So one way or another you HAVE to find some way to correct that demographic imbalance, or you have to face the fact that you do not have a real humanitarian and populist movement on your hands.

Very thoughtful response, its refreshing seeing disagreements rationally and calmly talked about and actively trying to engage with different perspectives without devolving into the debatelord space. im looking forward to watching more videos from you.

I think harm reduction is important but we can’t reform capitalism. Mutual aid to support our communities while we encourage more class consciousness so that we can create a new system is the only way forward. Plenty of good reads or videos on why reform is not the long term goal. ‘Reform or revolution’ by Luxembourg is a great read.

Oh this is weird never knew u guys had some exchange

Me: it's time for bed Also me: New T1J video?! Nah, sleep can wait 🤣

15:10 super interesting question, while I think a lot of this avoidance of identity politics (on the left) is a part of the idea that class solidarity would inherently improve the situation for marginalised groups; this solidarity can't be acheived without the accpetance and policies to get them on board first, feels like a catch 22, as well as corporations virtue signalling making it incredibly difficult to see who actually cares about identity politics and who is just using it to further their profits/agenda

I wish all reaction videos would be like this. This was a great video! ❤️

You know, a stream with the both of you would be really rich I think...

It really irks me when people dismiss all "identity politics" as "pandering" or "virtue signaling", especially when it's coming from ostensibly left wing people. If you are marginalized in some way, corporations and politicians being willing to pander to you is an indication that you are at least tolerated in society at some level. You can make commentary on that dynamic without disregarding the marginalization people face, or dismissing movements that seek to advance specific marginalized groups. The tendency of leftists and socialists to be dismissive or ignorant of other movements makes them very unreliable allies. Even worse is when you point this out to some leftists and they interpret this as an attack on their movement from their political opposition... It's clear there's so much work to be done.

This was really good. It was clear to me that you worked hard to delineate the problems as accurately as possible instead of merely trying to win the rhetoric game. Debate Lord is a fantastic term I hadn't heard before. I'm going to start using it.

My general thinking: Addressing capitalism without addressing racism is what led to the 1950's. Addressing racism without addressing capitalism is what led to Oprah Winfrey being a billionaire while millions of black people live dirt poor. And as for an opportunity for making changes, think locally - your city government is probably the easiest place to make real changes, get people elected who actually give a damn, reform your police department, etc. And you can often do that with very few votes.