There were others as well, including one Charles Williams.

I honestly believe that Lewis was never a true atheist, only a self-proclaimed one because he didn't know what else to call it or in order to add more legitimacy to the claim of his conversion, as he himself wrote that it wasn't that he didn't believe God existed, but rather he was angry with God for not existing. Also, and I don't mean any disrespect, I find Lewis' fiction very stale and second-rate, and his work of apologetics merely adequate at best. He basically took centuries' old arguments by much better philosophers and theologians like Atanasius, Augustine, Anselm and Thomas Aquinas, and rehashed them in a more readable manner. His own "original" propositions, like his famous trilemma on the nature of Christ, was more based on sophistry and fallacious reasoning than on solid arguments. And even Tolkien, his best friend and himself a proud and devout catholic, disliked Lewis' mediocre approach to writing fiction and apologetics.

@@CsnvLsRnst I guess there's a troll in every thread.

@@MaskedMan66 I think I had never been called a "troll" for respectfully offering my reasons to why I have a different opinion on a particular topic, so I'm very flattered :)

@@CsnvLsRnst I didn't see much (or any) respect in what you wrote.

2:33 doesn't the fact that the prisoner is able to think of the easter bunny, suggest that the easter bunny does exist? . . . no, no it doesn't

Didn't you watch the video? The fact that it is a myth doesn't detract from the primordial joy that the Easter Bunny brings to children. It even was right at the beginning! And every prison has an outside. Even if it was placed in the middle of the Earth it would still have an outside. The second that you stop believing that there is more than just those walls, is when it becomes true, and all hope is lost.

the trouble is the people that believe the books, and then kill people based on what the book says.

dan b You can say that about anything.

No. But something like?

Josh Burns same here 😃🇦🇺

Josh Burns uh hi

No, he looks like Tolkien. The guy playing Lewis looks like Lovecraft.

I’m there with ya

This was when they were younger...

It is a very peculiar question, apparently asked by a person who has never pictured something which does not exist. It is difficult to believe that Tolkien of all people would think that imagination is so limited, but perhaps he somehow managed to convince himself that all his stories truly happened somewhere, despite him inventing them himself. Could he have thought that Bilbo and Frodo and Gandalf all truly existed, and it was that sincere belief which motivated him to write so beautifully about them? He may have thought: if they don't really exist somewhere, how is it that I am able to picture them?

It did seem a strange line. Are we to assume the prisoner was born in the prison? (I realize it’s a metaphor, but the metaphor didn’t work for me.)

“[Fairy tales] make rivers run with wine only to make us remember, for one wild moment, that they run with water.” -Chesterton Tolkien gives us a world filled with Hobbits, wizards elves, and orcs; reminding us we live in a world of men, saints, sinners, angels, and demons

It would have been interesting, but the phrasing "lived unnaturally long" is just wrong: the first two books were released in 1954, with the third book being released in 1955 - he would have been in his 80s had he lived to see The Lord of the Rings book trilogy being released - and there's nothing "unnatural" about living to 80s.

Maybe we can get Peterson to do it. Iirc Pageau has already made a start on it.

Or to hear him debate with Richard Dawkins, especially around the comment at 7:14.

Lewis wrote a review of The Lord of the Rings. Probably the most glowing review anybody ever wrote.

Fun fact: H.P Lovecraft and Robert E Howard were also good friends.

MetallicaMan76 not really, they were good friends, of course, but often debated on literature. And they seldom agreed. In fact, they were really only good friends while they were both professors, and they grew apart over the years. Not only literature, but also religion. On the night that Tolkien took a walk with Lewis trying to convert him to Christianity, he wanted him to be a Roman Catholic, not a Protestant. However, both of them were devout Christians and used many of their beliefs to base them inside some of their books, such as Tolkien’s Silmarillion, and Lewis’s Space Trilogy.

Glorfindel the Golden-haired Prince They we’re great friends and God used them both. They might’ve disagreed on literature but most writers and theologians quarrel on such things . But their love for God and fiction and the amazing stories they brought are results of God’s sovereignty and love, to remind us that he’s not just here in the corporeal universe but especially in the spiritual universe and even the fictional universes we create in stories.

YES AND THEY WERE BOTH ATHEISTS.....WHO GOT "SAVED "... AFTER COLLEGE HAD TURNED THEM INTO ATHEISTS....!!! COLLEGE STUDENTS TO DO THAT TURN FOLKS INTO HEDONISTS.... AND PRODUCTS OF HUMANISM... THE GOD SPEAKS TO YOUR INNER SPIRIT TO ALL OF OUR SPIRITS.. ACTUALLY GOD NEVER STOPS TALKING TO US.. NO MATTER WHAT'S HAPPENING IF WE HAVE EVER HEARD THE NAME GOD.... HE WILL ALWAYS SPEAK TO US... THE OXFORD DONS, OR THE BEGGAR ON THE STREET...... WE WILL HEAR FROM GOING ALL THE TIME NO MATTER WHAT THE CONDITION IS THAT WE ARE IN.. THESE TWO REPRESENT HARDCORE ATHEISTS... IT TURNED TO GOD.... AND THE REST WAS HISTORY.

i dont . in fact i greatly love and respect him for it. i have a great love and appreciation for catholism.)

@@cuchulain55 roman catholic, tolkien was specifically roman catholic which i used to be

@@kevinmorrice i know.:) and i love catholism and am a great defender of it. in the highest:) when i think of the beautiful christian faith tradion i i mostly just regard and think of oriental eastern orthdox and catholic in that order.:) no offense to protestents they are all geeat to of course in thier own way, but im just not in to that form of christanity.

@@cuchulain55 i left the church because of personal issues i had, ive been a buddhist for 15 years now as a result, i once even gave a 20 minute talk on buddhism at my old church

@@kevinmorrice thats awesome!:) i my self am a perrenial philosopher. the religio sophia perrenis which adheres to the transcendent unity of all faiths.:)

I can. Atheism.

One year and 35 likes later...They're* and Than*.

@@curiousgeorge7080 *Fixed* I got it no worries.

I'm so glad someone agrees with me

GOT is pretty good come on but it doesn't beat the works of tolkein and cs lewis. even tolkein took his work from myths and legends of english folk history, welsh language and norse mythology

it's called a song of ice and fire not game of thrones

I wonder if he would of converted to eastern orthodoxy. a friend of mydads did because of the vactican 2 changes

***** wow! really I didn't know that before. so the british at that time would of been even more against Christian orthodoxy.

***** saying responses in latine isn't heresy.

***** Not likely: Catholicism does have a controversial legacy in Britain, but by Tolkien's time converts to the Church of Rome were not unusual. While such things did occasionally take place until about 100 years ago, there was never any hostilely towards the Orthodox due to the absence of sheared history. The perception was that they were foreign and a bit odd, but not something to be feared. Catholicism on the other hand had threatened the very existence of England a number of times, and inflicted much carnage - hence catholic converts were traditionally seen as being traitors - while the British were heavily invested more than others to build up the greeks for independence as an Orthodox nation, and merging royalty into the devoutly Orthodox Romanov family.

Rather Notsay The whole English Civil War was brought about because King Charles I favoured Roman Catholicism. Catholics in Britain since Henry VIII's creation of the Church Of England were seen as traitors to the state and were arrested and killed just by practising their religion, because there were strict laws against it. There was the huge exclusion crisis in Charles II's reign, because his brother who would later become James II was a well known catholic and the people refused to have a Catholic on the throne. The Royal family, even today still can't convert to Catholicism or marry a Catholic as one of the titles the monarch accepts is Defender of the Faith as the Head of the Church of England. So yeah there is bit of an anti-Catholic history going on there :).

The actor who played Tolkien is Kevin O'Brien. There is another video that showcases his acting titled "Socrates meets Jesus", in which he plays the titular philosopher transported to a modern university's world religions class. It's quite entertaining.

Ah, I see. Thank you good sir.

surely it was lewis who called tolkien jack

@@TheWeepingDalek Jack really was Lewis's nickname, from his childhood and all his life. You can look it up easily - it's a well-known fact.

Lewis was called jack by anyone with whom he was on a first name basis because he hated the name Clive Staples

Cancel your cable subscription! The worlds' I.Q.'s declined collectively as T.V.'s proliferated. There are so few with original thoughts because so many share the same and still fewer read to know any better. So-called "mass media" and consumerism are only delaying us from realizing the new Renaissance! To lose so many souls, so many great minds to a holocaust of aimless distractions at the expense of the future is surely more horrific than any holocaust of the flesh! We must always pray for God's Saving Grace!

I don't even watch TV, if i do it's the news or i'm popping a movie in. Network television absolutely disgust me, and the commercials are very simplified and childish. In my free time I read Tolkien's works or a non fiction article of some type. Being a writer I also do that. The desire to have a conversation like the one in this video is overwhelming and unfortunately hardly anyone in my generation has the interest or the intellect to do so. Not saying i'm better than any of them, but I wish the world was more literate than what it currently is.

Winston Bay I cancelled my SKY subscription when I saw my little girls watching drivel on Cartoon Network. It was utter brain rot. We are all made in the image of God and we have free will. We all have the ability to think. The game is distraction and thinking can be quite burdensome to be honest, especially living around zombies. I try to point them to read certain things and I have found that they do it without pressure in their own time. I don't force my will but, they can be shepherded.

deepheart100 Don't be so hasty to go and slander everybody. Theres always people around dying for opportunities to share their passions and discuss the possible Truth etc

Or just talk about the 'good old days'

Luis Acosta Casanova also Jack Lewis Looked more like they have Tolkien looking

Actually, the old man IS Tolkien. He used to call C.S Lewis Jack - it's complicated...

Exactly, they were only six years apart

The particular production team that put these videos together has these same two actors who play multiple historical characters. They work on a shoestring budget. They do all these different roles more as a ministry than a living. I have seen these same men play roles as diverse as Charles Darrow, Socrates, G.K. Chesterton and Friedrich Nietzsche. So although they do their best to make them look more like the individual they are playing, the real point is to make them speak in the terminology and thought process of the historical figure being studied.

I have a friend whose hairline is far more gone than the actor in this clip. He's 27.

lol funny pun

jordilop15 I can appreciate the that.

May I suggest the lectures by Ryan Reeves on Lewis and Tolkine

But to make stuff up and then profess it to be true is nothing like the same thing. That's propaganda at best, malice at worst. True, we don't know everything, but we're learning quickly, and not because our myths proved to be true. Rather because...science!

Materialism never posits that everything is already accounted for and understood, just that nothing is beyond human comprehension. Anything can be quantified, we need only advance far enough to find the means.

@@daltongarrett3393 Very logical. However what you have stated is pretty much metaphysical justification to materialism's potential. Materialism denies metaphysical concepts. At least what I am led to believe.

Good debates are like that. Welcome to the rabbit-hole of Tolkien. One of the smarts blokes I know.

same

Best Mentalism Christopher Hitchens and CS Lewis

So where's your essay?

well it is a very enlightening talk.:)

Enlightened is probably the wrong word unless you're being sarcastic. :)

what word would you use?

+Andrew Levin Enlightened is fine if you've realized that on the subject of God, Lewis was little more than Ken Ham with vocabulary.

+blackmore4 whoever this Ken guy is you really seam to like him as you keep bringing him up. wasnt that the dude who argued with mr Bill Nye?

Possibly but today you and I would not know which conclusions would turn out to be true and which would be false. So it would be pointless to wonder about that, except leaving all options open.

Human wisdom is time bound, while God's Wisdom is timeless.

Dodec84 But the issue is that they hold those things to be absolute instead of saying "thats the best guess so far".

SetsunaAngel99 a good example of that, would be how the Soviet Union taught the Sciences. Keep in mind, that the Soviet Union was an officially atheist state.

Why don't you find out what it even means before you knock it. You just used it in a small way to put down those words. And the device you wrote on is the product of it. Go live in the woods with no clothes and every time you have a coherent thought bump yourself on the head with a rock to break the habit and see where that all takes you. I think you'll find that you won't be doing quite as well as the birds in the field ...

KZfaq is far from being what it was ten years ago. There is so much high quality content on all sorts of topics these days.

Yep !

Jordan Peterson.

Not all Catholics priests abuse children. Shame on those who did, however.

Look up C.S. Lewis Doodle

However you cannot ignore the nuances.

"... just as speech is invention about objects and ideas, so myth is invention about truth." ... So then why do you speak and why should I listen to you?

@@KevinOBrien101660 think Tolkien lays it out fairly well, don’t you think? Not sure if you’re asking me personally or rhetorically. I watched the video and it reminded me the part in the book where this taken.

But the English word Myth is such a beautiful word though. why cant we still use it to refer to something deeper.

He is referring to 1 (not 2) William, dear boy: 1. a traditional story, especially one concerning the early history of a people or explaining a natural or social phenomenon, and typically involving supernatural beings or events. "ancient Celtic myths" synonyms: folk tale, story, folk story, legend, tale, fable, saga, allegory, parable, tradition, lore, folklore; More 2. a widely held but false belief or idea. "the belief that evening primrose oil helps to cure eczema is a myth, according to dermatologists"

Right, but I believe he was only trying to reach Jack(CS Lewis), not everyone else. It's a personal conversation.

h0gg0 h0gg0, I know. But few even know that definition, but rather automatically think of definition 2.

Sean Anthony That's a good point. However, these conversations between Lewis and Tolkien have become quite famous. And when folks hear Tolkien use the word "myth" , they often just do not grasp what he meant, but infer almost the opposite. That's what I have seen.

or jewish and muslim or A Hindu or buddhist or sento or animistic or paganistic and even an atheist

And a Christian, just like me . Anyone who is not a fool

Absolutely! I was raised a Catholic, am now a respectful agnostic, and have always been a dreamer haha. I think the only dislike of this video could be by those disrespectful... not that all atheists are disrespectful by nature.. but I posit that they are disrespectful of reason.. for to be an atheist is a logical fallacy in that you are using the same faith in something you do not know to assert the otherside of the existence of a supreme being. I should clarify, this in and of itself is not disrespectful, but to militantly assert that you are correct in your assumption/belief and all others heretics is no better than the fanatical theist starting wars over doctrine that these same people so often cast aspersions upon. This one mans opinion, anyways :)

Lmao

+Kelly Norman it's quite the opposit, Hobbits aren't supposed to be excited about adventures, they're supposed not to care about the outer world, outside their garden :)

Olorin Dreamer I didn't mean all Hobbits as you can see I put Frodo and Bilbo specifically as they are excited at the prospect of adventure, but, especially Bilbo, are quite happy when they go back to the comforts of home.

Kelly Norman well then we could say that of every empire that existed

+Kelly Norman I agree about the suburbs! (:D Love their fantasy books!

Hobbits didn’t go around slaughtering, enslaving, stealing land from and colonising indigenous people. The British Empire was an evil sickness and the opposite of Christianity.

What at load of romanticist rubbish haha

It does continue on in the actions taken outside of oneself. It is a force of will that proves itself it when challenged.

That's fine. How do you know that? By what method did you determine that to be true ...

Love is a decision.

Without being free to choose it you can’t have it

Same man, when i started reading myself, just some C.S Lewis His Lectures, Articles, and books. That blew away, a lot of what modern academia teaches today. And watching this, even though not the real convo. Really was intellectually Stimulating that's for sure. Wish we had more men like them in Modern Universities/Colleges.

Same here, guys: Peterson for the last year or so, and a couple runs through Chesterton's 'Orthodoxy,' thanks to my friend Pastor John. Chesterton is one of the greatest. Glad to see fellow travelers on the Journey. Wish we could get together for a meal sometime.

It's a famous conversation, it happened in the early hours of September 20, 1931 in the grounds of Magdalen College Oxford. There was another man, Hugo Dyson, present. If I know anything of the form here (FWIIW my parents met at Oxford in this period, they were Catholics, and I grew up with the legend of Tolkien) it followed an evening's hard drinking ---

@@pwmiles56 Thank you so much!

This video seems confused about who was John Tolkien and who was Clive Lewis. Tolkien was six years older than Lewis; however the man who appears older refers to what appears to be the younger man as Jack. As for an account of this incident I found this online sullivanfiles.net/lewis/mythastruth.pdf ….I'm currently reading the fascinating volume, C.S. Lewis and the Catholic Church, by Joseph Pearce (with whom I had the pleasure of chatting over dinner one time). I was familiar with the general outlines of Lewis's conversion to Christianity (he being my favorite writer), but the way Pearce described it was very interesting and thought-provoking, in terms of my own (and Lewis's) interest in the relationship of Romanticism and Mythology to Christianity. I would like to cite some of it: ------------------------------------------------------------------- This meeting, which was to have such a revolutionary impact on Lewis's life, took place on 19 September 1931 after Lewis had invited Tolkien and Dyson to dine at his rooms in Magdalen College. After dinner the three men went for a walk beside the river and discussed the nature and purpose of myth. Lewis explained that he felt the power of myths, but that they were ultimately untrue. As he expressed it to Tolkien, myths were 'lies, even though lies breathed through silver.' 'No,' Tolkien replied emphatically. 'They are not.'

A decisive discussion between Tolkien, Dyson and Lewis did take place, but this is not a transcript of it. No transcript exists AFAIK, and the contents of this dialogue are pulled from other sources, as you supposed. See other replies. The nearest you will get to a summary of the discussion is what Lewis writes in the autobiographical account of his path from childhood to conversion (never intended to be a full autobiography): "Surprised by joy". In that book, Lewis gives his own technical definition of "joy". q.v. It has nothing to do with Joy Davidman, whom he much later married, although it is an amusing coincidence. Lewis's definition of joy: kzfaq.info/get/bejne/rphhlLeVmJy1faM.html

I enabled contribution mode. I also enabled French subtitles, though I don't know what that does. Thank you, Marie!

+TheSodaThief This statement means nothing.

Kyler Easterson think about it

TheSodaThief I did. It's a true statement but it doesn't prove or disprove God.

Kyler Easterson True but it disproves many atheistic theories

TheSodaThief How so? In which atheistic theories does it say that absolute void or absolutely nothing instantly became something. What if it's just that nothing is impossible. What if there has and always will be something.

It is an excerpt from a documentary about Tolkien

He has said at least once that he is very much like a hobbit, except in size, and based The Shire (fairly loosely) on the world he grew up (not born) in. I wouldn't be suprised if Bilbo is a "Author Avatar" of sorts.

Him and Frodo share the same personality type according to 16personalities.com

Guilherme da Rosa he always said he was simply a tall Hobbit

What is truth said jesting Pilate, and would not stay for an answer --- the most haunting line ever written --- John 18,38 interpreted by Francis Bacon

Actually Pilate had a point. I've heard in my wanderings about how Christ "spoke truth to power". What truth?