Javascript, a framework for c++, a framework for assembly, a framework for binary... 🤯

don't forget to shove Typescript in there

Once you go more than 3 (to ~4) layers of abstraction, you're screwing somebody over. They'll never get wholesale or manufacturer's price. Same thing in Computer Programming. There should only be 3 levels of salesmen involved with getting a product: Government Tax , creator of the product, management of the creator. Once somebody else gets involve after that, then a upsale occurs and the last guy is dooped. The whole ecosystem of JS is like that. It reminds me of Java. I learned to recognize excessive bloat due to the Boomer's love of Java. P.S. Some times a handler controls the consumer (like a parent to safeguard against the consumer harming itself). That's when its ok to go 4 deep/tiers,

​@@complexity5545government tax reptile, i see. Tax money for wars, that are only held to waste public resources and depop strongest man in the society.

​@@whatsanimeshbalance. all those layers up to C++ handle certain tasks. Javascript is a scripting language... which then became the foundation of todays crap

This should be higher up

@@sajeevshanmuganandarajah5252 glad someone else noticed

It certainly does. Theo is great to listen for opinions (they helped lots for my own projects) but that's it.

yep, no wonder he's shilling for next lol

Theo said in a video one time that moving your components into other routes will break your app I was persuaded to never use remix. After learning a tiny bit about remix I know that’s not the case so it definitely felt disingenuous and I’ve consumed his content a lot less ever since.

I am thinking of just moving to backend, this shit is infuriating.

As a backend engineer who sometimes gets forced into doing frontend I wonder the same thing! I decided on using Next.js for a project for a customer because of how easy it was to get up and running. All good and well until you start running into situations where you're trying to do things that Next.js wasn't designed for. Then you're f-ed, because either you spend a large amount of time in becoming a Next.js expert to solve the issues the "proper" way or you start introducing work-arounds and escapes. For me Next.js makes the easy easy and the hard very hard. It was only later that I learned about Remix and I have no experience with it so I can't really say if it's really any better, but I like their KISS principles. And of late HTMX has _really_ drawn my attention, because it just moves everything back to the server again. The only thing that stops me is that I'm not sure how hard it would be to create complex UIs with it.

@@naughtiousmaximus7853Yes as a new developer learning. Dude you can spend 3 hours on stuff and not spend a single moment working on core logic. I moved on to go

@@user-ow9uq3uc7u programmers are not being replaced with ai... there is no intelligence in any of the tools they showcased... they will assist you but not replace you, unless you are doing mindless drone work then yeah, i'd be surprised if those people didnt already get laid off

@@user-ow9uq3uc7uNot but 90% of this stuff can be done with GOLang and HTMX or so forth. That is all it's going to take a more advanced htmx. maybe like a hybrid "framework based on htmx " thats not really a framework and its all done. React needs to go back to the basics.

I fixed my nextjs problems by installing sveltekit.

LOL... this comment tree is gorgeous

Hahahah

Me avoiding NEXTJS as Astro does it for me with best dx and all web api with SSR and spa both and if I want to use any ui library I can react,svelte , whatever or just simple html,CSS also Astro is just does it all without this over complicated mess

I fixed all my nextJS problems by resigning my job. I am farming potatoes now.

Yes

YES

Yep!

remix is just better

I thought I was the only one who felt that way. What are you using for your database layer in Remix?

until you get out of basics and then there is zero remix sources out there, you need to build everything from strach or spend hours figuring shit out... people that like remix are the ones that never put an app with real customers using remix in production

​@@OA00000doesn't shopify use remix?

What are you missing? What can't you get easily in Remix? Genuine question.

Advertainment

Its the current state of the internet man, everyones trying to sell us something they got paid for or get for free.

THIS, exactly why I never bother learning next yet

Agree. When I signed up for react in it's first year I wanted a front end framework. It's crazy server stuff is pushing me to htmx or solid.

This is also why "being early" is not always the best thing.

I hate that I had to relearn React many times, the same with Next.js. Hope they can stop at certain point and stop adding new "features".

This is a very fair summary of an experience so many devs had. Doing my best to help push us through 🫡 Agree with all the commenters saying "being early" isn't a great thing, it often hurts as much as it helps. I got to React and Next incredibly late

More than that, Remix does not drop SPA users like Next. You can now build usual SPA app with remix. One mental model for both ssr and spa, pretty cool.

@@andreyyastrebtsov4367 We've had the ability to escape the next.js router and make a SPA in Next.js for years too though. The new Remix SPA mode in Vite just offers a more official way to do it.

what about SSG and ISR?

@@jasekdominik as far as I know SSG right now is not supported, I don't know what is ISR but Next docs regarding this are in pages router section, which is the old way

​@@jasekdominik You can get pretty much all of the benefits of SSG and ISR using good old http caching.

I jumped ship a long time ago and that was it!

@@blessdarah1256 Sad!

I dont think that there's something in JS world without bugs

I dont think there is any software without bugs

This is wild because I've been using Next in production since v10 on the pages router and never experienced this kind of instability

Same we're using Pages Router with v13.5 for prod. I've another proj (it's inhouse one so no much worries), with App router v14 & it's real pain in the arse. Pages router were better & I wish we could go back to good days...

Why do you need to go back. The pages router is still here and will be for a long time

I'm using page router with next 14.1.0 and no server crashes at all in dev, qa and prod.

@@Jorgepr787 "dev, qa and prod" You seem to be referring to deployment environments. When I say the dev server crashed, I meant the code you run locally when you run "npm run dev"

Yo, did you have any problems with migrating to Remix? We are choosing between Next and Remix, we have strong knowledge in next, but remix seems too good. Can you say something that you liked in remix?

@ames Honestly I did not migrate anything. I researched before beginning the project. But as I have seen both framework I will try to tell you diff the best I can. My pick for this was to make sure I can host the build in cpanel. And store images in the server. Not any image hosting place. I haven't hosted it yet. 1. If you know react and react router you know remix. Built for SSR , you can control which file is rendered in the server or the client with a file name convention. [Filename.client.ts/tsx > for only client side, FileName.server.ts/tsx > for pure server render. No client / server name added it will be in the server always.] 2. There are only two server functions , Loader and Actions. Any GET method response handled by Loader and all the other methods are handled by action. 3. Every page is a API route. Every page exports 3 functions , Loader , Actions and Default (component). If you don't give default function it acts like a api route. There is also Link function for styles. I use tailwind css , so I have to use the link function once in the root.tsx [main layout]. 4. 3 ways to use routing. Pages style which good for almost any project. The naming convention is easy to understand. Also there are ways to do routing with folder structure. And the most powerful one remix.config.tsx way. You define every possible route however you want it. They have all the details in the doc. There is also a 3rd party lib that was mentioned in the doc. That uses remix.config.tsx and extends its power. So 4 ways. 5. They have built in Native components and functions for most of the work. Like file uploader , Await ,Defer , Form [enhanced version of native form element]. Their Form works without js. One tip add key property to the form and it will auto reset upon submission. They have 2 types of form fetcher and regular [auto redirect enabled, you can disable it]. You can do read on it. You can use any form lib you want. I like conform [conform.guide/]. It has ssr. 6. Most of the thing you need they already have it , at least the basics. And if a lib works with next js or react it works with remix. But remember to make sure that you know that lib is ssr or csr. You must declare client side component or all will be served in server. 7. Obviously faster than next js. remix do not do waterfall it's parallel. Its lighter than next js. More gut out. More control in your hand. It is just a handler for your request to the server. You can serve remix with almost anything. Express or Deno whatever you want. May be make yours too. I use server.js from this example [github.com/remix-run/remix/tree/main/templates/express]. It is from their official sources. [Edit: Please if you have better handler than this let me know.] 8. The best point is this is not vendor locked and way easier than Nextjs. And Remix is built on the top of react and react router and all of the web that already exists [MDN docs will be your best friend. MDN has it remix uses it.] Basics are keys to master remix. No fancy coding going here. Just as we all begin our journey from our first html file to js file. Remix takes it all in. IT goes back to root. Just normal react and the web apis. Remix will handle ssr and lot's of other things. 9. Do not forget to use enc/type and method in the From in remix. It will not send your image or file or anything to requested api [internal or external]. As the old web worked this way. Remix brings it all back. To do form you really don't need anything fancy. I hope my words made some sorts of sense. I think you get the pain points of next js. It does not exist in remix. But most of us forgot the basic webs in favor of the nextjs , vendor locking over complicated framework. I think this shouldn't be that complicated. Edit: I am not sure but I have heard it many times next js ships canary versions as stable. Which is not good.

​@@HDAllGamesI'm editing a video in which we built a startup with Remix. I haven't had lots of experience with NextJS, but I can say the thing I liked the most was how unobstrusive it was. No GraphQL, no tRPC, no broken REST endpoints. File based routing was neat. We also implemented CQRS in the backend (manually wiring it). We must be between the 2 cats in the community which approached remix in such a way. But our backend was decoupled. We could expose our backend logic through different services like GraphQL, and REST or another library/framework without problems. There's no babel support, so watch out for that, in case you use a project like Lingui, which supports it.

People see older frameworks and think, we need this for x language/lib/framework. They forget that those frameworks were developed over decades and weren't adding unstable new features every week. They got there organically. People are basing their entire livelihoods/careers/businessed on languages or libraries less than a decade old and trying to solve problems that don't really exist and just creating more issues. Kinda insane really.

Yes, but I have no idea how this is possible? Any documentation?

The server action actually creates the endpoint for you under the hood

It's just the cyclical trend of SSR vs SPA yet again getting turned around, this time in favor SPAs. I feel like people are coping by calling SPAs and REST APIs "complex" - any modern "metaframework" (especially Next.js) involves dozens of hidden layers of abstractions which is way harder to reason about than simple client-server architecture.

I always felt that having something like React on client side communicating with REST API was very clear way of doing things. Nextjs seems like a huge mess.

There is a huge win if you have data that can be fetched on a server level / location before sending the whole shebang to the browser. Otherwise, the browser has to do two round trips, one to fetch the page and another to fetch the data. Additionally, SSR provides easy-to-work-with out of the box routing capabilities, highly opinionated which in my book is a good thing. THAT BEING SAID, I wholeheartedly agree with the rest of your sentiment. If you work on intranet apps where network is not an issue, a good router and a decent route guarding for authorization, may sound a bit of a mess to set up and running but when you get it up and working it's infinitely better than being at the whim of a NodeJS runtime that runs a web server you can't control and then have it do some of the nasty work while you hope it behaves the way you want it to (e.g. do you know you can't disable caching in Next 13+? so you may have users seeing routes they are not authorized to do so because the route as a server component is cached? fun times).

You don't need most useEffect's anymore with server components. I find Next.js to be a lot easier than setting up separate services... obviously for larger scale projects at some point you'll want to separate your backend into separate services, but why not do the easier thing for smaller projects?

@@Pete133 Yeah but if you're using React just as a sort of templating language for rendering static websites using server content (like partly what Next.js does) then 90% of the features of ordinary React will be useless and a lot of extra stuff has to be included in order to make things make sense, at which point you'd be better off using something else entirely. UseEffect is used for clientside stuff, and most people use react-query or rtk-query for repetitive things like fetching data from a server anyways.

If you're in react ecosystem, yes. But, honestly, I don't see any reason to go with Remix/Next over Sveltekit when starting a new project. Dev experience is so much better in Svelte ecosystem and you move so fast, it's not even comparable at this point. Imo if you're not going with Go/HTMX that is you need more than that, then Sveltekit is the way.

@@boccobadz what makes sveltekit so fast, in your opinion? I'd be curious to try, but not sure how easy it is, if I want to build a larger app with auth, payment, roles etc. What's your take on this?

​@@boccobadz the react ecosystem is just bigger and for lots of people that's a must have

what do you think about vue?

Have you tried i18 next that would work i guess

i18n-next only works by the domain, and has a lot of extra limitation on top of it

You can use SST open-next, but there are trade offs. While SST is an open-source solution, Vercel, which is built and maintained by the framework's creators and provides first-class support for Next.js features. SST is an open-source solution, which runs the risk that it can be abandoned without warning. SST also offers less support for streaming features compared to Vercel. However, most apps should still function as expected when deployed through either SST or Vercel. In terms of performance, SST provides control over log retention, caching policies, Lambda function timeouts, and memory usage, while Vercel offers a fully baked deployment solution that requires minimal work.

isn't it called vendor locking?

What happened?

you should see the subreddit lmfao

@@justafreak15able they didn't like lmao-lang

lmao

@@andru5054what is lmao lang?

hahahaha

For me it's (somewhat) the opposite - HTMX is making me wish we could go back to clientside SPAs and web API backends instead of whatever the hell this new "return to tradition" trend is.

​@@wielomarianwhy is nextjs so demanded, it doesnt make sense

I'd like to hear a bit more deep explanation of that. :) I was also surprised.

How is it impossible? You can use a combination of dynamic routes, middleware and rewrites. The “choosing wildcards” you’re referring to is pretty simple in middleware.

@@Goshified Okay replying in youtube is fucking broken or it doesn't work if you post links. Just go to vercel's nextjs repo and search through issues for "is:issue is:open internationalization migration". 5 open issues. Leerob has also stated that it doesn't work. As long as you have i18n in next.config.js it simply doesn't work right. And the funny thing is, there's no way to tell what it's actually detecting either. There's no native way to get the route list unless you run next export and then parse all the exported files. Freaking rad.

Why not? It has good DX and handles bunch of stuff out of the box. What would you use if you had to build a dashboard app?

@@rand0mtv660 If it's just the frontend part then definitely Vite + tanstack router. And tbh, even if it's fullstack, I'd still prefer express + vite, too many pitfalls and hacks needed to make next.js work correctly for next to no benefit. Also the absolutely terrible hot reloading and compilation times...

@@rand0mtv660 vue with nuxt :) eventually angular cuz its good for data driven projects, react would be the last pick, its better for web apps and ecommey

@@rand0mtv660 Either Retool or Refine

​@@rand0mtv660 A dashboard app doesn't need SSR, you can just make an SPA with Vite, React Router / Tanstack Router etc

It's not a React issue, it's a Next.js issue. The classic SPA React router worked like a charm and still does.

HTMX is just another tool, it's not good solution for everything

htmx can't be used when you don't have constant internet access

And I wasn't suggesting it is. But people seem to be growing tired of the complexity and that is one explanation of the HTMX hype.

For me, SPA is far easier to understand than the 9999 layers of complexity hidden within these modern SSR "metaframeworks". Also, how is HTMX NOT a type of SPA framework? HTMX doesn't server-render the content and it doesn't even work with JS disabled.

@@okie9025 I am not advocating for HTMX but for less complexity. And you should read up about everything that comes after "Also,". Because you are off there.

Remix is just React Router + Vite which there's a ton of jobs for.

Excalidraw

I thought superjson was by formidable originally and Blitz took it over? Either way I dig them for maintaining it

Superjson? You mean protobufs? 😂

@@t3dotggyeah we designed and built it for Blitz :)

@@flybayer_official TIL! Thank you for the hard work 🙏

agree

yes, but without the full page refreshes after the first load

yes, but without a garbage language and with better DX

imagine calling PHP garbage and making your entire stack JavaScript

Yes. They both do different things. Use react query strictly for syncing with server state/apis. Use Zustand for managing local state.

Looks like Arc Browser