I really don't think you're making the right judgments about attitudes towards cars, and the general degree of automotive electrification in this country called Europe, based on encounters in downtown Berlin. I don't say I disagree with you're point necessarily, but there is more to Europe than Berlin, Stuttgart and Zurich. Just as there probably is a country called USA outside bay area.

Better public transit would be the best solution for urban environments

Im old enough to know, people who write about cars professionally, are the wost at predicting the future of the car..

You surprised me when you mentioned that Europe is so ahead in the EV journey. I was in Portugal and Spain and I did not see a single EV in my trip. Almost all cars are still manual transmission. I don't see them moving as quickly as you think!

I have driven 49,000ish miles in two years on my Bolt EUV and it’s been awesome not paying for gas. I have a 40amp plug in my garage and it charges about 25 miles per hour so my car is fully charged by morning. My wife also has an ev and she loves not paying for gas. My fun car is an NB Miata, manual, LSD, hard dog roll bar and it’s a blast to drive around mountain roads. Both ev and ice can and should exist. I look forward to solid state batteries for our next EV.

I don't in good faith believe the claim regarding the culture around internal combustion. As a European, living in Europe I see no evidence to back it up. Maybe in countries such as Sweden that is the case, but I by and large, apart from governments I don't see anyone else wholly embracing EVs in the manner that you describe

The last thing people need to be worrying about is the grid. It takes 25 years to replace a fleet and even if everyone was to convert to electric cars over 20 years (which they won't) the grid planners in all parts of the country are well aware of electric cars and are engineering capacity to accomidate accordingly.

I do feel like every time Europe is mentioned it’s an over generalization. I’m Italian and I never EVER heard about such extreme things against cars, most of the time cool cars are applauded, especially old cars. And I personally never heard of other countries being so extreme. I think it might just be a select handful of very left winged cities like Berlin where such things happen. ps: My family has a 1971 Fiat 500 and whilst driving it around I see nothing but smiles, drivers will literally yield to me if I'm waiting at a stop sign. Never encountered any hate from anyone.

I still don't have a backup camera or Bluetooth in my car. I can play tapes though.

German car makers don't want to make EVs because they lose money on every one they sell.

34:50 EU already retraced the ban on ICE, the only restriction is that ICE will have to be able to run on synthetic fuel which isn’t a real restriction at all. That’s why they’re going back to what they do which is building cars that customers want. The fact that the new 5 series etc. Looks the same in any engine configuration isn’t for consumers, like you suggest, but for them to offer an EV at a minimal financial loss.

I love Jason's point - It shouldn't be a fight. It doesn't need to be this or that. It will be both for years to come. Many households need two cars. My wife and I have an EV and an ICE. It makes a lot of sense for us. I much prefer the driving experience of my EV.

It has to be one vs the other because among the people that can afford cars, most of them can only afford one car.

Hyphen doesnt sound any better What the hell has he caught ?

I8 needs a revelations. Cause it was a bad idea but it was beautifully done. And I love seeing it. Never will own one. But I like seeing them

So nearly 42 minutes later and I still don't have an answer ---are EVs doomed?

LOL does Randy falling out of the sky (in a Sky) hint at Randy being in an episode soon?

Contradicted himself in the same sentence, "51% ev sales in Marin county where the distances are short, and the climate is mild. Therefore, this will work everywhere around the world." Thats a hell of a logical jump he's making in the same statement.

Wow! What a clap!

Since Hagerty sold out to State Farm their rates have tripled. RIP Hagerty. You are missed.

EDIT - you should do a carmudgeon show on H2! Is Hydrogen really good for long haul trucking though? You need massive super high pressure tanks on the truck, you still need batteries, the fuel cell and storage architecture is very problematic given the pernicious nature of hydrogen - meaning more and frequent maintenance costs for vehicle, depots and production facilities.. fuel and equipment costs will be very expensive until proper scale can be reached, and it's unclear what the actual range of the vehicles will be.. as of right now doesn't look great. It will always be less efficient than a BEV and if we are talking about some amazing H2 future tech that will make things mo' better then also worth mentioning that battery tech is also improving albeit at a much faster rate.

My main reason for not wanting an EV is not necessarily any range/charging issue (it is an issue currently but if it was solved it wouldn't really change my mind). Its that I just don't find EV powertrains very exciting. Sure they can be really powerful but current ICE performance cars are already so fast that its not really worth trading the sound and feel I like with good ICE powertrains just to go even faster. This is even more true in motorcycle world where gas bikes are already outrageously fast and the noise and feel are even more central to the experience. I would however take an EV pickup/SUV/Van as a "workhorse" people mover/ tow vehicle as I don't really need to be excited by that kind of vehicle...but range and charging currently do hold those vehicles back pretty significantly.

Great conversation, thanks guys!

You're exactly right about the e-Golf, I've got 60k miles on my 2017 and it's brilliant. It only needs two motors and 50% more range to be perfect. Also a working phone app. Looking forward to the R3. We also have an e-tron SUV, you're not wrong about that too. Boring af, but smooth, and great in snow.

I come here for the Subaru roasts

Germans will always ask you to turn the engine off when parked it’s happened to me many times . Chucking the keys is an escalation!

Great episode, and solid insights and opinions. Great job Fellas!!!

We all pay pretty much the same amount for petrol, give or take local discrepancies, as others in our geographic locale. The price people pay for their electricity, particularly away from home, varies by an order of magnitude or more! With most in densely populated urban areas unable to charge at home, being beholden to an unreliable and highly contested public charging network which will multiply your costs of operation is just not an attractive proposition. The people with a level 2 charger and dual rate off peak metering at home will be fine… but also might struggle to empathise much with those who don’t.

300 gaz stations for... 2million trucks? 🤣 Sure....

Many of the reasons for “EV is doomed” are distinctly US only

You guys are Awesome!!!! thanks

Twitter is operating just fine with only 10% of the previous staff numbers.

Ive been out of the new car market for decades now. Unfortunately that means im at the mercy of those who do buy new. Where i live E.V.s as they currently exist wont work. So limbo we are

Problem of this is Europe is not a single unified entity, the culture and ecomonic level of Spain, Italy or Portugal has nothin to do with Germany or UK, in the first ones the average salary is 25k and most people lives in old flats whith have no garage so you cant afford an EV and you cant charge it, in the second ones the average salary is nearly double and there are a lot more single houses with their own garage where you can install a charger. So the problem is people in goverments are disconnected from reality and are not having this kind of differences in mind

To be honest, I wish every episode was 2+ hrs since I listen to you guys while working, but something is better than nothing at the end of the day

i lived in an apartment in Queens nyc with no garage for 40 years. EVs are/were not an option. i now live in france, without access to home charging. no fcken way I'm relying on public charging networks.

I watch this podcast and am also shopping for a Subaru. I am the problem.

FINALLY a rational, well-educated discussion on EV's. The thoughts you both expressed about Tesla/Elon in this episode almost exactly mirror my own. I was a day 1 Model 3 reservation holder who's been daily driving a Model 3 performance for 6 years now and use my enthusiast ICE cars for the weekends. It doesn't have to be a "this or that" mindset that so many people get caught up in. You can do both and experience the advantages that each provide. Elon's missteps are so disappointing because I feel that Tesla and specifically their supercharging network could've been the next iPhone moment for the car industry if he didn't keep ruining his reputation.

I just went on a mini road trip, and I passed by many superchargers that I didn't need to use, that were at ~10% usage (during the busiest travel weekend of the year). They're so far ahead of what is currently needed, that they probably wanted to increase utilization to make supercharging profitable. Why do people think this is the end? It made too much sense to do.

31:51 f150 lightnings are NOT selling like hotcakes...

8:40 "EVs aren't being forced down your throat by government regulations, why do you think that??" 34:40 "It's strange that European manufacturers think they can go back to making ICE cars - the government regulations would never allow that." Jason??

Elon seems to only make erratic and shortsighted decisions these days. I hope all those engineers end up in places where they can better support the EV industry as a whole.

Jason, I need you to drive a new Alpha Wolf pickup when it's available so I can decide whether to buy one. It looks AMAZING, but I want to make sure it's actually good before spending the money.

i saw a lucid gravity driving on skyline blvd the other day. really excited to see how it does in the market

25:58 The fact that you used Toyota to prove a point and then don't even point out the fact that they (literally) said they do not believe EVs are the way forward, and aren't making any (unless forced to) says everything (about you and the market).

Like it or not, electrification has been politicized. The Carmudgeons stepped in dung on this one.

If a battery cell is damaged in an accident, insurance company consider the vehicle a total loss in turn causing insurance rates to rise.

Finally, some discussion in line with reality.

Considering the grid, we are at capacity in many places in the US. I hear what youre saying about already having electricity, but wouldn't we be going backwards? Most states wont allow new nuclear construction so that means coal plants. And alot more of them.

We went from 100% horses to 99% cars in a bit over one decade. It was not several decades needed to build that whole fossil fuel infrastructure!

The Sky is falling. Nice pull and Easter egg, editors!

26:51 Jason, you just described the Kia EV3 with its 350 mile range, and Golf-like overall length. Buy it!

“I intentionally handicap my EV so that I have to drive one of my 10 other cars” isn’t particularly relatable to the rest of us. I’m fortunate to have 3 cars (1 for wife, 2 for me) and both of our DDs need to go long distances in remote areas regularly in all weather, and the third sports car certainly isn’t being traded in on an EV. Anything remotely affordable is a penalty box (and don’t tell me about the Inoque 5 N, you know Hyundai dealers are going to Hyundai dealer ADM that thing to the moon) and I don’t want it.

EVs still need time. Right now, they cost more and come with additional inconveniences compared to ICE equivalent cars. These are significant factors for many buyers.

Bottom line in EV adoption is the cost of electricity vs the cost of gas. Always follow the money.

Also, after witnessing first hand a carcass of a $250k Lucid that burned to the ground in a matter of minutes after a pretty standard accident at low speed (it wasn't granted the right-of way by another car when turning) I'm really not sure it's the possibility I want to face when I hop into my car...

Meanwhile there's a 5000 mile wide patch of sargassum floating toward florida and nobody's figured out how to turn that into renewable gasoline to run in the billion+ combustion engines that already exist and have their manufacturing footprint already "paid" .

I do wonder when these guys last drove in Germany . Long gone are the days when you could drive at 250kmph for 7 hrs !

California, Colorado, Florida, Hawaii, Maryland, New Jersey, New York, Oregon, and Virginia have passed right-to-charge laws aiming to streamline the installation of residential community EV charging stations. Also, Illinois recently passed a right-to-charge law specific to new houses or multiunit buildings.

Thank you for making my inner monologue rant about the true state of the EV industry, public. You guys are fucking awesome, it gives me hope that actually informed people have the right idea about it too.

On the one hand, yesterday (May 27, 2024) I spotted a Fisker Ocean in traffic in Baltimore, MD. On the other hand, Baltimore, MD is a good example of a place where the vast majority of people live in rowhomes with on street parking or in apartment buildings. Furthermore, most new housing built in the greater Baltimore area is high density apartment or townhouse complexes. Those who do own cars cannot practically install a home charging station connected to their house power. This leaves them with the prospect of waiting in line at a charging station, then waiting for their car to charge. Another big problem with the push by politicians away from fossil fuels is home heating. Forcing homes to be heated with electricity will only further tax the grid and is less efficient than natural gas, propane, or even heating oil. Seems the green movement forgot where their name came from: vegetation, which takes in Carbon Dioxide and puts out Oxygen. Plant more trees and grasses instead of covering the ground with solar panels.

There is more nuance to the supercharger team being fired.... a Tesla subcontractor called Smart Charge America mentioned that installation jobs that were supposed to take 4 weeks were being done in 8 to 14 months. Elon found out and fired them all when Rebecca said she could not fire more people....

Love the ending, but the real question is… Is the ending a teaser? After the sky falls in, will Randy be taking over on next week’s episode?

The carbon footprint to build a Hummer EV or a Cyber truck is huge compared to an ICE vehicle.

EV is the answer for now... We are told. We can't argue their performance, quietness and like all other digital things their rapid evolution... But buying an EV feels like buying a computer, phone, digital camera .. it's great the first 6 months and then it's usurped 6 months later... And 2 years later... Irrelevant... The OS and other things get upgraded... But the battery tech stays the same and quickly becomes outdated.... Sigh

I'm surprised that Jason actually thought Elon was smarter than him. Smart oligarchs don't let themselves become famous supervillains.

Hybrids are the half way point between EV and ICE. Too many car manufacturers took too long to make hybrid vehicles. I never considered buying an EV until I bought a hybrid. That is when I realized for myself that my preconceived notions on EV's may have been wrong. The biggest hurdle keeping me out of the EV market is that I can't charge them from home.

Rivian and Lucid have the same issue. They are selling 150K cars for 85 or in Lucids case 500K dollar cars for 90K or even in the case of the sapphire, what 750K car for 250K. Making a car is easy. Making the machine that makes the cars at volume is hard. They should stop trying to compete with Tesla and sell them for what they are worth.

Jason is very optimistic and will unfortunately be proven wrong in the long term, not regarding how good evs are but regarding you being able to drive your gas cars. More gas for us all is not a real thing, once most people have evs your local governments will largely forbid you from driving your combustion cars around. I’m sure he’s aware of how many places in Europe are like this with cars that are a mere 15 years old, imagine when most cars are electric and yours is a demonized fuel consuming car. The infrastructure will also slowly disappear the more people have evs. The virtue signaling tree huggers will regulate your gas cars out of existence. This is the definition of a slippery slope.. The example Derek brought up of that asshole in Berlin taking the keys out of an idling classic car is a sign of things to come. Idk how so many people can be so oblivious to how bad this is gonna get for people that like gas cars. Im not some antivaccine moron but remember how tyrannical things got with the pandemic, instead of covid it’s gonna be emissions.

Hertz foray into EVs is a perfect example of culture trumping strategy. I purposefully rented Teslas and agents tried to talk me out of my rental twice. Paying people shitty wages, providing poor instruction and expecting them to go the extra mile to explain how to operate simple things like a the key card on a Tesla is impossible. Getting into a Tesla for the first time is daunting. The last place you want to do that is in a new, unfamiliar town.

I've daily driven a model 3 for 4 years. I have virtually no interest in renting an EV when i'm out traveling, because access to overnight L2 charging is so far from ubiquitous.

My question still stands, why can’t we have both? Let’s do more hybrids?

Tatra

If a battery cell is damaged in an accident, insurance companies write off the vehicle as a total loss in turn causing insurance rates to rise.

With my power rates in the central coast of california, EVs now cost more per mile to drive than the equivalent gas car. IE a Prius Prime plug in would cost me more to drive on electric than gas only. That is a big blow to the incentive of EVs.

GAH! The TSX wagon! I worked for Acura as a tech when they brought them out, and was so excited for an actual euro competitor for wagons. I was heartbroken when I saw the specs for it, as it should have been a slam dunk. The worst part of it, and the part that most mystified me, was it wouldn’t have been a huge engineering hurdle to make the drivetrain great. Most of it would be parts bin stuff, ala the drivetrain wholesale from either the TL-SH AWD, or the Accord Crosstour. Beyond programming, spring rates and drive shaft length, most of it would blot straight in.

It works great, unless you live in rural areas where you travel more than a couple miles to work. Or if you like taking your family on road trips to see the countryside. Additionally, outside of the major metro areas charging gets really really hard to find. If they get battery tech to where they can get actual usable range to the gas equivalent, and charge it in the same amount of time as getting gas I’d switch to electric in a flash. I don’t see that happening in my lifetime. Not for a vehicle that’s actually affordable for someone making less than $100,000.

Absolute nonsense thatICEs are over. There is no consumer groundswell here in the UK for EVs. Theyve flatlined at 16% market share for 3 years running. In many countries the highest selling product is a Toyota Hilux

We don't know why he fired the supercharger team, there is a lot a possible other reasons, and we don't know how many he rehired.

What's so wrong about all the EV introduction is the all-or-nothing approach of certain manufacturers. Setting dates so early before the market is able to regulate itself naturally by offerings and demand is making customers angry and panicky - and probably same for the shareholders. It's all so forced into a time schedule and regulations/subsidies that it's an unnatural product market.

I'm still waiting for a compelling EV to replace my Golf Mk. 7 SportsCombi (Sportswagen/Variant). Maybe a 2/3 scale, wagon-shaped Lucid Gravity. Maybe something like a Kia EV6 in wagon form instead of SUV. Maybe a Rivian R3 wagon. Until then, I'll just maintain the car that I have.

Will EV`s save the planet ? i don't know, but, what i feel is THE main benefit of EV`s is, reducing the pollution our children breathe, the damage lead did to people we are still seeing in human populations today, lead sticks around a long time. There is still of course pollution from EVs driving by, in some places, stirring up pollutants deposited over years by combustion engines and more recently, catalytic convertors, to a lesser extent to the past, but, ...EV`s for the win as far as pollution on roads beside our children, the roads that take us to our homes, not just highways, roads in cities where millions live and work, places we`ve made it difficult for all but the toughest animals like rats to survive (i know, i know, *chuckles*), also, imagine how quiet, hopefully, the world will become, or quieter, ...so we can hear that domestic argument six blocks over, clear as day. Save gasoline/petrol for us `old car` lovers, the `old cars` cars that drink dinosaur juice, while using EV`s for transport ...that's my five cents worth on the EV debate, i know a younger generation will never look back at `classic` cars that we all love today, even the love of engine sounds has changed, people like the EV futuristic sound, and even gas/petrol cars today have fake engine noises, the shift is there, even fake manual transmissions are impressing people, so ..i don`t know, perhaps EV`s have begun seeping into what current drivers want too, im more a 350Hp at the wheels is PLENTY kinda guy, more is more, but so is the weight, so more power needed, more battery needed, more mass, less fun for me personally, but the times they are a changing (charging ?) . The latest EV`s discussed/reviewed seem to me personally, as marketing asking, "what do performance car drivers want ? no wrong answers, what do people love ? " "well, power, big Hp number, okay, quick 0-100kmh/62Mph with launch mode, okay, and longer range than people need to avoid range anxiety, and a manual transmission, they want to take their hands from the wheel to play with a gear shift ..even if its not real for some reason, oh, and gadgets, lots of gadgets, people want to forget they are in a car, and have a sound system and comfy seats like a living room ...only better " So most of those things are easy boxes to tick but now we end up with a heavier than necessary car, unnecessarily heavy electric motors to still make the car fast, despite the fact it needs a heavier than necessary battery and all its associated wiring and cooling systems, and the extended entertainment systems. To some of us, that's all unnecessary, a smaller battery, lighter car, lighter motors, big brakes, and a fantastic handling characteristic, no powerful entertainment system, just the things required for driving, maybe aiming for no power steering too, that's a target perhaps not mentioned to the marketing people, cornering and stopping was less important than drag racing to 100/62 and having electronic distractions and eco tires. To a younger generation, it may not matter about the handling and such, the shift i think HAS happened, the overly powerful thing may die down eventually, a family car with 1,000 Hp though may become a constant still in some form as the halo model, my thoughts always are `but what happens when you get to a corner with those speeds ? how do you change physics ?` design and tech has done well to hide EV`s mass, but ...its still there, and when you need to stop or change its direction in a hurry ...physics, not just a good idea,... its the law! ...i could go on, but, ill keep it brief for`reader losing interest` reasons. Thank you for todays episode, feel better now ive had my Carmudgeon fix, much appreciated. Be good (or not, ...im not your dad), and keep smiling. Candy and Dan. 🐶❤🧙‍♂🍄 (todays edit inserts gave me some hearty chuckles, good work) All hail the Al Gore rhythm

we drive an eGolf for around town use. we have a Q7 for road trips and an RS4 cabrio for short / fun drives. i would buy more EVs but there is a lack of compelling EVs at a reasonable price point. and the charging network is pathetic in the US. EVs make sense for specific use cases (home owners with reasonable commutes). But for ALL use cases...no, not yet at least.

Nearly the last thing this whole system of getting hydrocarbons out of the earth is about, is fuel.

"DISINGENUOS CALIFORNIA THINK GARBAGE" IS WHAT THIS EPISODE SHOULD BE TITLED.

legacy auto can'T make compelling ev's, that's whats doomed. grab the popcorn

22:34

Best part of the week

Jason just because you live in the exalted world of being an auto reviewer does not mean that EVs are a given or any kind of eventuality. I love you but this is by far your hottest take.

Current reality is absolutely fear of pack of realistic charging and lack of personal home ownership. A car can charge from 10%-80% from Kia but theyll just get stolen or targeted. Also anyone sort of savvy about EVs now knows that rapid charging ruins your battery, so you keep carving away at the total consumer base until you arrive at today. The 12 year thing is also pretty poignant, and also still moving older. The exception is current EVs will look like horses and carts in 12 years when the general market starts really looking at them. Regular ICE cars from even 20 years ago still look pretty neat to a lot of people, and some are even charming. The biggest issue there is safety. But its all a self-consuming cycle that means in America people probably wont adopt EVs until its absolutely necessary. Conveniently, in about 12 years America is banning new ICE sales. Not sure that'll stick but there u go.

You guys are making me worry about my tesla stocks haha

I can't wait for someone with 3 first names to pick this apart...

re twitter he fired 80% and it now runs better. what are you talking about? twitter has better economics and is a better experience for most people because most can now use it. you can talk about trans, covid, mass immigration, biden/trump, jan 6th etc etc. the narratives you can talk about aren't set by whatever the latest thing is in msm.

The more I listen, the more I think Jason is not objective at all in his views. He just rationalises his subjective opinions to the point of thinking he is objective and fair.

What if Tesla becomes the leading safety and autonomous supplier to ground, air, ocean, and space vehicle production?

The average person drives a 12 year old car? My daily is only 2 years younger than me 😂

I thought Volvo did a comparison on ev vs gas, on the exact same platform and the massive impact from mining and shipping materials meant you had to drive 25k miles in the ev just to get back to even with a combustion engine. I think shmee150 spoke about this report that was done. I could be 100% mistaken so don't roast me if my facts aren't spot on this was at least a year ago. Cheers

Did anyone else see the Motortrend article written by Lieberman against Plug in Hybrids? It was such a joke

The big problem with EVs around here is that the charging infrastructure is not being expanded. A quarter of a million people live in the county where I live, near Seattle with a lot of EV adoption. A month after we got our EV there were 9 high speed chargers to serve the population. Nearly two years later there were still only those 9. Then Tesla opened a location with 9-10 more. I know a business owner who bought EVs for his employees to get to work sites but they can’t be used for that because they charging infrastructure isn’t built out enough. Driving from Seattle to Portland in an EV adds an hour to the trip. Every hotel that we have stayed at because they nominally had charging in their parking structure didn’t actually have it available, It was buy electric, buy electric, buy electric and then no one bothered to expand charging to any meaningful degree.

To everyone saying there is no obvious trend towards mass EV adoption in Europe: at least where I am from, Belgium, most people are holding off on buying new ICEs and waiting for EV prices to drop, because it is mostly agreed upon it is the future. No one wants to be left holding the bag on an ICE they can't sell down the line. The group that is buying new ICEs in large volumes are rich people who need the extreme range or who want that noise or old school interior opulence not yet available in mass market EVs. The shift is real. Every EV supporting aspect on a societal level, from home solar panel installations, at-work and roadside charging infrastructure to some cities needing paid passes to be able to enter with fine particle polluting vehicles point in one direction: EV transition.