Gain Twist "Pre Frontier" 44-40 Colt Single Action Army

Рет қаралды 9,405

Күн бұрын

Join us for a look at a part of Colt's early development of the Single Action Army, the little known and very rare gain twist "Pre Frontier" 44-40.

Пікірлер: 123

@Atpost334 5 ай бұрын

OK, I’m officially jealous.

@blueduck9409 5 ай бұрын

Me too

@bluescatreimer 5 ай бұрын

That is a real treat being able to shoot a piece of history.

@chrisevansgunshorsesranchi699 5 ай бұрын

It was great meeting you at the antique firearms show. Good luck with your new adventure in Wyoming Chris Evans

@thecinnabar8442 5 ай бұрын

Thanks a bunch, Chris!!! Erin and I enjoyed meeting you as well.

@dianecullum1281 5 ай бұрын

(Mike C) You'll never catch me complaining about you shooting the old iron Mark. Love it! I really appreciate watching a gun channel where the host is a gentleman that doesn't feel the need to resort to profanity. Refreshing!

@thecinnabar8442 5 ай бұрын

Thanks Mike! I get quite a bit of feedback from people who share these videos with their kids or grandkids, so it's important to me to keep things G-rated. I'm glad you like it.

@ricktaylor5744 5 ай бұрын

Thank you Mike. It's always nice to see those old ones out on the range.

@user-hk1xv9wp9j 5 ай бұрын

Amazing piece of history. Thank you for bringing the revolver to us, it’s history and a few rounds. It keeps history alive and as you say, in the west. Tod in Idaho

@thecinnabar8442 5 ай бұрын

You're very welcome, Tod! Thanks for watching

@CameronMcCreary 5 ай бұрын

Thanks Mark for a very informative presentation. By slowing the speed of my phone to half speed, I was able to see the gain twist of the barrel. Nice shooting and functioning with good accuracy with hollow base bullets.

@thecinnabar8442 5 ай бұрын

Glad you liked it, Cameron! Thanks for watching.

@steveshoemaker6347 5 ай бұрын

Talk about history of the 44-40 Colt and still shooting after 100 and 50 years.....THANKS MARK..... Old F-4 2 Shoe🇺🇸

@thecinnabar8442 5 ай бұрын

You're very welcome, Steve! This was definitely an enjoyable one to research and even more enjoyable to shoot.

@rooster3019 5 ай бұрын

They do deserve to be used and cared for. Good show!

@cliff8680 5 ай бұрын

My grandfather gave me a book from colt. Signed by one of the authors. And its a 100 year history from 1836 to 1936.. i am going to look for any info on gain twist.. as always thanks Mark for showing us another great colt.

@thecinnabar8442 5 ай бұрын

I'll have to see if Erin has that one. Most of the info I found was written by John Kopec.

@EdwardCox-cn5no 5 ай бұрын

Very nice meeting you at the Colt show I’m very happy that you enjoyed the Gun

@millcreekrange 5 ай бұрын

Very Nice Mark!!! Very Nice!!! 👍👍. I had actually forgotten about sending you those bullets too. Glad that you liked them. 👍👍

@thecinnabar8442 5 ай бұрын

Thanks again, Benji!! I think this was a real testament to how well these old girls with oversized bores can shoot with soft cast bullets and a good "bump up" affect from black powder loads. I wasn't confident it would work that well in a revolver with a wider than optimum barrel/cylinder gap.

@millcreekrange 5 ай бұрын

@@thecinnabar8442 glad you liked them. Between the wide lube groove and the hollow base bullets, that’s pretty much all I shoot in my two old 73 Winchester’s.

@snappers_antique_firearms 5 ай бұрын

Hey Benji nice to see you here buddy.

@flintrichards945 5 ай бұрын

A very interesting piece of history I have never seen one of those old Colts with gain twist.

@thecinnabar8442 5 ай бұрын

I count myself lucky to have found this one, for sure.

@453421abcdefg12345 5 ай бұрын

You really struck gold on this one Mark! What a gem of a pistol, and it shoots well, well done ! Chris B.

@thecinnabar8442 5 ай бұрын

Thanks Chris! She might not be as purdy as some other SAA's, but this one's a keeper.

@williamkaiser8067 5 ай бұрын

@@thecinnabar8442 To quote somebody, "purdy is as purdy does". It functions fine, it provided a good test bed all those years ago and provides us all great pleasure today. What's not to like? But I would bet this is one Colt that you don't load anything but BP in!

@galenhisler396 5 ай бұрын

Wow! Very nice. Thanks for sharing.

@robr1656 5 ай бұрын

Great and interesting episode. You've a great thing going here. Please keep them coming.

@thecinnabar8442 5 ай бұрын

Thanks Rob! Will do.

@oregonoutback7779 5 ай бұрын

What a sweet old Colt. Great find, looks like you found a good one at the show. Thanks for sharing with us.

@thecinnabar8442 5 ай бұрын

You're very welcome!

@AngelRodriguez-du5rp 5 ай бұрын

Mark, I enjoyed this video....heck I enjoy them all. I liked seeing that old girl kick up after every shot! Lots of power 😊

@vtpatriot686 5 ай бұрын

Wow.. You sir are an encyclopedia of knowledge.. Thank you for the lessons!

@thecinnabar8442 5 ай бұрын

You're very welcome!

@jtbork1221 5 ай бұрын

Great Colt...always interesting to watch your videos. Thanks for sharing some history.

@thecinnabar8442 5 ай бұрын

You're very welcome!

@herrent 5 ай бұрын

Great story and presentation, excellent

@peterconnan5631 5 ай бұрын

Best thing about Monday morning is my weekley episode of Cinnabar! Thanks and happy trails!

@thecinnabar8442 5 ай бұрын

Happy Trails, Peter! Thanks for watching.

@snappers_antique_firearms 5 ай бұрын

Really enjoyed meeting you at the las vegas Antique firearms show. Also, thanks for letting me see this amazing colt in person. What a amazing colt.

@thecinnabar8442 5 ай бұрын

It was great to meet you, too. I enjoyed showing off the old Colt.

@snappers_antique_firearms 5 ай бұрын

@thecinnabar8442 thanks again, and please let me know when you start making barrels or barrel liners with Progressive rifling. I need one for a 1st model dragoon and a 51 navy. Keep up the great videos and work.

@dorisjohnson8857 5 ай бұрын

Fascinating history lesson and so much fun to watch as always than you for sharing 💗 DJ

@thecinnabar8442 5 ай бұрын

You're very welcome, DJ!

@user-cq2yz8ff4z 5 ай бұрын

great video! It's unbelievable that the revolver shoots so well with the wide barrel! Thank you for this video!

@thecinnabar8442 5 ай бұрын

You're very welcome. I was pleasantly surprised by how well it shot, too.

@Tom-ki3lq 5 ай бұрын

Thanks Mark. I was unaware that gain twist had made the leap to the SAA even for a little bit. A good and enjoyable history lesson.

@thecinnabar8442 5 ай бұрын

You're very welcome! I didn't know that either until I came across this revolver. It's an interesting part of the history of the single action army. Thanks for watching.

@chrischiampo7647 5 ай бұрын

Really Cool The Gain Twist Rifling Concept Always Interested Me 😊😀😊 Thanks Mark Awesome Video

@Mtbambeno Ай бұрын

Learned something new today. I would have thought someone rebarreled it, not realizing the gain twist was ever used on a SAA.

@jeffgrier8488 5 ай бұрын

That's a sweet old revolver, it's good to see it throwing lead down range! Thanks for sharing it with us!

@thecinnabar8442 5 ай бұрын

You're very welcome, Jeff!

@davidtimmermann7226 5 ай бұрын

Absolutely gorgeous country!

@ironduke2660 5 ай бұрын

Hi Mark, great information, I like that you used black powder, and hollow base bullets, and while these old guns are in shootable condition, more than likely not shot often. As with the 44-40 73 I own, yesterday I took my 32-20 73 Winchester to the range, several loads were tried, the best being 2400 topped with 4 gr of shot buffer. since the shot buffer is inert, you should add the weight of shot buffer to the weight of the bullet when deciding how much 2400 to use, this old dark bored 73 printed a 10 shot group 7 of the holes 1 1/2" at 50 yds 4 in one hole, this filler combo was shared with me by John Kort and my good friend Steve, and if anyone out there wants to bring an old dark bore rifle back into some sort of accuracy, this seems to help quite a lot. No signs of pressure, the rifle shot and fed well. however, these are very low velocity loads, and are basically plinking rounds, however they will knock over steel targets at the cowboy silhouette range! Thanks for all you videos I look forward to them! Chris

@beezowdoo-doozopittybop-bo9127 5 ай бұрын

That is a beautiful revolver! It’s very cool to be able to get a deep dive into such a collectable and rare revolver.

@michaelchristianson7743 5 ай бұрын

Very nice to meet you at The Show, say hello to Eldon for me. Mike Christianson

@wilberfifer5563 5 ай бұрын

Thanks Mark, Excellentas always!

@scotty3114 5 ай бұрын

That is a neat old Colt!

@thecinnabar8442 5 ай бұрын

Thanks Scotty!

@jeffreygardner2591 4 ай бұрын

The depth of the grooves makes sense when you consider that the original chambering was for 44 Russian and 44 American, and if I remember correctly Colt was furnishing revolvers in 44 German to his European salesman. More than likely, a good number of the gain twist barrels went to Germany.

@gotsloco1810 5 ай бұрын

Odd grooved rifling is most easily measured with ring gauges. Think an equivalent to pin gauges but for OD’s. I have had to make them as I have never found a source to purchase them.

@gotsloco1810 5 ай бұрын

Measuring the slug

@user-dj2gr1lg5r 5 ай бұрын

This thing is beautiful ud absolutely love a remake of it nowadays even without the gain twist barrel id be happen but up here in canada we get a short end of the stick, beautiful gun thank you for showing us all this gorgeous antique revolver

@lonniedeckermusic 5 ай бұрын

Fascinating stuff...Thanks

@DeathMond. 5 ай бұрын

Thank you for passing on your information and knowledge. Much appreciated, Sir.

@thecinnabar8442 5 ай бұрын

My pleasure!

@jacklucking691 5 ай бұрын

GREAT video.....Thank You.

@lynnanderson2683 5 ай бұрын

Really nice, looks like so much fun

@jeffryrichardson9105 5 ай бұрын

Very interesting information! Great find!👍🏽😀❤️🇺🇸

@thecinnabar8442 5 ай бұрын

Glad you liked it, Jeff!

@Studentofthegun45 2 ай бұрын

I think a part of the oversized bore has to do with colt relying on the old soft hollow base bullets upsetting to fill the bore and grab the rifling. The cylinder throats being correct would keep the bullet from obturating until passing the forcing cone. Elmer Keith writes of this in sixguns, with the conclusion being that obviously correct bore dimensions and correct bullet dimensions far excelled in accuracy.

@dogbone1358 5 ай бұрын

Wow. Very cool firearm!

@bibbyman2 5 ай бұрын

Lucky dowg!

@morganlee2418 5 ай бұрын

Thats one cool old colt thanks for the videos and all the gunsmithing information

@thecinnabar8442 5 ай бұрын

You're very welcome, Morgan!

@montecraig7032 5 ай бұрын

I had a screw up at the range. Accidentally loaded a 44-40 cartridge in the magazine of a Chiappa .45 colt rifle. It cycled and chambered but when fired felt weak. It must have shot way low from target. Chrony said 680 fps.

@thecinnabar8442 5 ай бұрын

It would definitely be hard to "bump up" a .427" bullet to fill a .452" bore. Especially if it was a hard cast bullet. Must have rattled down the bore.

@smithwesson7765 4 ай бұрын

Imagine how expensive it was to build reaming equipment that would do this. Such an interesting topic.

@errolpoxleitner9586 4 ай бұрын

Beautiful pistol.

@paulvenn4447 5 ай бұрын

Gain twist rifling just like the Carcano rifles

@thecinnabar8442 5 ай бұрын

Yes. And the S&W 460XVR. And the 20mm Gatlings on fighter jets. And the 30mm gatlings on A10 Warthogs, etc. It was an idea ahead of it's time.

@scottscheuerman8714 5 ай бұрын

A buddy told me he had had one of those early colts with 7 grove barrel I got to shoot one that was made in 1894 which was stamped frontier six shooter it shot really well it is amazing how fast black powder heats up when shooting my frontier six shooters are all 3rd generation etched panel black powder frame

@thecinnabar8442 5 ай бұрын

I often shoot light smokeless loads for these videos, but I sure enjoy shooting black powder when I have the time to make up some loads. It just seemed right for this old Colt.

@scottscheuerman8714 5 ай бұрын

@@thecinnabar8442 I picked up a interesting old colt the other day it doubled action colt new army made in 1923 and it caliber is 32-20 wcf now I have colts in 38wcf and 44-40 beside 45 colt

@kevinshorter5861 5 ай бұрын

Thanks for telling us and showing it too!!

@jerrymoran8323 5 ай бұрын

Fantastic, I had read about the gain twist and saw one at the Cody Museum years ago. I often wonder why more experimentation on gain twist in rifles, rather than one more cartridge that hold a few grains plus or minus for the optimum velocity and pressure for accuracy. Seems like the pressure would be less on entering the rifling with slower to faster twist. Increasing the revolution throughout bullet travel in barrel. What rifle caliber(s) history has gain twist ? Really appreciate this channel, never disappoints. No safe queens here! Exciting to view, imagining the life and times of each of those old SA and Rifles. I am looking up the posting on P&W gain twist rifling machinery. Content is so unique and educational ; like one was right there, back in the day. ❤️🌹🦅🙏🍀✡️

@AlOudball 5 ай бұрын

Mark did you get a new hat and jacket for the show?? Oh Yeah, this was about that dandy gain twist SAA you were showing us! I could almost smell the holy black!! Fascinating demo MERCI!

@chadpyett6441 5 ай бұрын

Great video and I agree with your sentiments if its safe to shoot use it have your run across anything in the 41 caliber

@thecinnabar8442 5 ай бұрын

Thanks Chad! I see single action army's and Lightning revolvers in 41 LC from time to time. Are you in the market for one?

@patrickcolahan7499 5 ай бұрын

Is it possible that they had a increased bore diameter because of the type of lead and the common use of a hollow bullet? Very nice piece, thanks for sharing.

@thecinnabar8442 5 ай бұрын

I can't think of any advantage in making the bore diameter that much larger than the cylinder throat diameter. I think the soft cast lead bullets and black powder "bump up" helped make up for the difference, but they would almost certainly have been more accurate with a similar throat and bore diameter.

@titanbluestreak8709 5 ай бұрын

Great Colt Mark. Enjoyed the video and shooting. Off a bench rest you and the old pistol would do even better.

@user-ou1og8fs5m 5 ай бұрын

Of course you should shoot it. Not quick drawing or fanning the hammer mind ya. Your respect for that fine Colt is great. Thanks for sharing such a fine discovery. Hope you share the cost for us drooling the whole time you're handling her. Love that old rifling machine man. I have push drilled and pull reamed with most of the modern cnc units. Pulled a button with one of those new one too. I would love to have a modern long range elk rifle in .299 bore and .308 groove with a twist starting out about 14 and at exit about 10 with a 168gr 30 cal screaming at 3400fps ahead of a RUM case. Love your low key approach to an honest heirloom piece of history. Enjoy and shoot it often. I'll bet you can find an oversized mould and that spread to shrink right before your eyes. Some of us old times have some old 4759 to clear the smoke a little.Wait all week to catch the next treasure you brought home. Great Content. Carry on room piece

@thecinnabar8442 5 ай бұрын

I just brought home a deep hole drill and reamer from Montana, so I'll soon be undertaking the challenge and learning process of barrel making. BTW, I've still got some 4759 around here somewhere. I may have to dig it out and give it a try.

@williamkaiser8067 5 ай бұрын

A really nice piece of Colt history here! I'm not a Colt kind of guy, but I sure do love learning about the early days and watching them shoot. The two bullets sounded entirely different when shot - were they, or was that just a quirk of the wind that day?

@thecinnabar8442 5 ай бұрын

They were loaded with the exact same load. The main difference was in the design of the bases.

@williamkaiser8067 5 ай бұрын

@@thecinnabar8442 Does that mean you loaded some with a balloon head?

@thecinnabar8442 5 ай бұрын

The bullet base, not the cartridge base. The first 6 were flat base bullets, the second 6 were hollow base bullets.

@williamkaiser8067 5 ай бұрын

@@thecinnabar8442 It might be interesting to see the bullet after it's been twisted and maybe partially shredded like that. Is it possible for you to catch it afterwards more or less intact? Gain twisting sounds like a good idea, in theory, if it doesn't tear the bullet up. Or at least to my uneducated mind.

@billbearback2591 5 ай бұрын

just by a stroke of luck i wonder if the gain twist starting in the slightly oversize bore helps to expand the lead as it then travels in the second half of the barrel and the tighter twist then catches the now slightly expanded projectile ,possibly cleaning up the accuracy , another great presentation showing us something we just couldnt get our hands on , thanks for sharing

@thecinnabar8442 5 ай бұрын

An interesting thought. A barrel maker told me the 20mm and 30mm Gatlings used by the Air Force today have gain twist rifling for a similar reason. Those heavier projectiles have to be progressively sped up or they tend to tear the jackets up with a fast rate of twist in a constant twist barrel.

@49walker44 5 ай бұрын

What a beautiful Colt story and gun, would you need a ransom rest to see the difference between a 6 grove and progressive 7? Are progressive rifling popular today? Thanks Mark, what a treat. It would be an interesting reproduction to copy except for the diameter if you can reproduce the top roll stamp.

@thecinnabar8442 5 ай бұрын

Haha! A Ransom rest might take out the operator error, especially on a cold windy day like this one. Of course, I was shooting one handed as a tribute to the style of shooting from this old beauty's time. It'll be interesting to rifle a barrel with the gain twist sine bar and compare it to the early Colt rifling.

@darreldwalton8763 5 ай бұрын

Yet another interesting video! Do the early Colt's have left hand twist barrels? Do you suppose that the l/h twist spec may have originated with Sam's forays into the British markets? Need some help cleaning up the most heavily leaded barrel I've encountered. It's on a S&W model 25-5, 45 Colt, 6", looks like it was just shot a LOT wit dead soft "cowboy" loads, and only superficially cleaned. Suggestions? Thanks in advance!

@thecinnabar8442 5 ай бұрын

Yes, they're left-hand twist. I've not found an easy way to remove lead from a bore. Patience and a lot of scrubbing is the only thing that's worked for me.

@darreldwalton8763 5 ай бұрын

@@thecinnabar8442 Pretty much what I thought on the leading. Yecch! Dad pointed out the l/h twist on US Model 1917 rifles from all 3 manufacturers, apparently, all they did in the change from 303 to 30-06 was change bore and twist rate, leaving the rest of the boring ang rifling machines as-is after the Pattern 14 contracts were filled. Dad was also convinced that "wrong" twist made his converted Remington SO accurate!

@herrent 5 ай бұрын

That pattern looks like you Mark! Haha

@brianalbee4153 5 ай бұрын

Looks like you scored an "interesting" revolver! Seems like Colt was into oversized bores, hollow bases and externally lubed bullets for a while until they settled into the 45LC. I have a 41LC 1877;Colt made about 1890 I want to get running, I purchased a hollow base mold for it also. Hope it shoots half as nice as yours, I'd be happy.

@thecinnabar8442 5 ай бұрын

Best of luck with the Thunderer! The tricky part of loading heeled-based bullets like the 41LC is getting the crimp right. It's really enjoyable to me to be able to get them shooting again. Have fun!

@couteauxdecollection 5 ай бұрын

👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻

@elenas4878 5 ай бұрын

Excellent as usual! Have you tried some smokeless loads or you think that would be a little too much for that old girl?

@thecinnabar8442 5 ай бұрын

Thanks! I used black powder to try to bump up the soft lead bullets to fill the bore. There's also nostalgia value in shooting black powder loads in a firearm from the black powder era. While you can load smokeless powder loads to higher pressures than black powder loads, it's also quite easy to produce smokeless loads with less (and sometimes far less) chamber pressure than black powder loads. If I were trying to take it easy on this old girl, I'd choose light smokeless loads rather than black powder loads. It's just more enjoyable to make some smoke! 😊

@dennistaylor6486 5 ай бұрын

If you can't shoot them what good are they? Great vid Mike!

@loupuleff571 5 ай бұрын

Hey Mark, that's a dandy pistol what a great find too bad about the oversize bore normally you could open up the cylinders to get a better fit but obviously you would never do that with a rare gun but I had a old gun once where they filed to much off the front sight like yours and I fashioned up a false ramp to slip over the top to get the group's down to zero I guess depending on if you ever even shoot it again might not be worth the trouble ?

@thecinnabar8442 5 ай бұрын

You're right, there's a lot of things I could do to that revolver to make it shoot better, but it won't be modified while I'm alive. It'd almost be akin to tearing down a Civil War monument in my book.

@loupuleff571 5 ай бұрын

@@thecinnabar8442 I agree that’s a beauty it feels awesome when you hold a piece of history I had a gun once serial #6 but sold it but just knowing I had it shot it and left it in original condition is good in my book !