My pleasure entirely

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Thanks for sharing.

I'm glad you pointed this out Tim. I was going to note the same thing. Benchmark gives 5db of internal headroom to handle inter-sample overs. This is sound advice though Hans. Appreciate you sharing and bringing attention to this issue.

Yes, the P.S. Audio DirectStream (an FPGA dac) also provides headroom.

@@TheHansBeekhuyzenChannel I really appreciate KZfaqr’s Hans, such as yourself, that attempt to educate the audio consumer in earnest. It is refreshing to see/hear. I frequently have to back off from 0 dBFS on CD’s, but also many times not that much, it just depends. I will typically use -1 dB as my zero regardless.. There’s a lot of variability in available recordings but I will preview a disc to arrive at the sweet spot for serious listening. I have found a few recordings that seemed so poor that they actually sounded better at lower than -6 dBFS, which seems a little crazy, but I can only go by what my ears “say” to me lol

Yes benchmark has had this in their FPgA via firmware chip update for long while now since Dac2. If you have the benchmark dac2 you can upgrade the firmware via a microchip you replace to get this functionality of lowering signal by -3dbs to avoid intersample overs.

Thank you, sir.

@@TheHansBeekhuyzenChannel, you are quite welcome Mr Hans!

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As I told in several videos

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Amsterdam? Rather Utrecht.

Utrecht, then you are very welcome in Nieuwegein to come and have a cup of coffee and maybe (probably) you have suggestions for me to tweak or fine-tune my Naim set😊😉.

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My pleasure entirely

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Dude I do the same thing, hit at Midway and using my Gustard to play with the volume

I thought I was a genius for doing that

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how did you do it please

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What does it mean when people say they do -3dBFS? Like how do I do that?

@@Ken-vv3os that just means 3 dB less than full scale. For power, that would be half power, but in voltage, which is what we’re discussing, -6 dB would be half. -3 dB in voltage would be about 0.7 of the voltage (roughly 2/3’s).

@@shipsahoy1793 but how do you actually do that? What do you tweak on which device?

@@Ken-vv3os oh I get you, sorry ! The easy way is to have a dac that allows you to make those adjustments. Some dacs have a digital control that you can go from zero down to minus whatever in half dB or dB increments. You can’t do it on a Modi or something that doesn’t have what’s referred to maybe as preamp mode instead of dac mode. I’m not up on the difficult ways or all design permutations. You can use the volume control on a passive preamp to “pad” or reduce the level coming out of the dac, but the dac analog output will still be up at full output.

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great to hear. Enjoy the music.

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Nowadays digital volume control can be better than analog ones. It’s all down to the implementation.

Yes I think this is why it works so well! The dac analog output and preamp input can be receiving a full 4v. It's good to get restrain this a little before hitting the analog domain. Also results in the pre volume pot being turned up... Log pots have a sweet spot around 11 to 2 o'clock.

Enjoy the music

Roon also has a headroom set at -3 dB that can be switched on.

It works in all software music players, also in Audirvāna

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Thanks for watching!

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I worked for UK magazines in the past and visited the UK a lot.

@@TheHansBeekhuyzenChannel Yes I see your English is excellent, there is no doubt. In my defence I am a native English speaker who grew up in Australia topping the English subject all through school and writing a masters thesis in English at an Australian university then later publishing two journal articles in American academic journals. In the end if does not matter, the excellent content of your videos is the most relevant part! :)

Thanks!

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Thank you sir

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Absolutely. BTW upsampling isn't lossless either. Any digital processing is lossy. But the SQ gain when upsampling might be better than the loss.

@@TheHansBeekhuyzenChannel Makes sense. Thanks very much

Of course, but that wasn't the topic.

I don’t expect it will. But just try and listen. It’s quite audible in an A-B comparison.

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@@TheHansBeekhuyzenChannel Hi Hans, I would love to hear your thoughts on this question: Is there a risk of making the system too smooth by reducing the volume by -3dB before the DAC? Does it negatively impact punch and dynamics? Thanks again for your help.

Great job!

Well, you shouldn't produce signals that create 'overs' and give a bit of headroom so the reconstruction filters overshooting doesn't happen. But if you want to do the same as on the playback systems, you can reduce the monitor out with 3 dB and control the volume after the digital to analog conversion.

This is not about clipping during recording but overshooting of the reconstruction filter.

@TheHansBeekhuyzenChannel yes I know, but if ones messes up during recording you can't solve it during playback. So although the reason is different, the problem is the same! You can't go beyond the brick wall as easily as with analogue... the latter is more forgiving...

I don’t listen to headphones so I can’t say

Correct

Every filter - analog and digital - will have some overshoot but analog filters have a nicer character when it happens. But why not just apply that 3 dB attenuation? It won’t harm the sound when done properly.

I don’t know the Fabfilter so I can’t say.

@@TheHansBeekhuyzenChannel Fabfilter Pro L2 is a limiter plugin and I've set it up as a clipper.

It's been 1.5 years now and I already felt fine after a few weeks. It solved the tremor considerably. Thanks for asking.

@@TheHansBeekhuyzenChannel 👍👍 pleased to hear that.

It's been a while (and many pieces of equipment) ago since I used MoOde. But if you use it with an external DAC, set the volume at -3 dB.

Good question. Although i cant even find the digital volume setting. anyone knows more about this "trick"/ headroom leveling for musicbee?

I don’t know. Just try it.

No, that’s the analog output level.

The volume needs to be lowered by 3 dB in the streamer.

@@TheHansBeekhuyzenChannel thanks a lot for your kind reply, I had just a quick look inside the Wiim app, there is the functionality "Set the maximum allowed volume" I can choose from 0 to 100, may I ask you Sir what value shoud I pick from 0 to 100 to reduce the -3db (it may be smth like 95%) ? Thanks really a lot

In the Cambridge Audio if the digital out is volume controlled. If not, you can't.

Some components inside a DAC are microphonic; they are sensitive to vibrations.

On the Node

No. You can't correct the volume between the streamer and the DAC.

Yes

@@TheHansBeekhuyzenChannel thank you maestro

In Audirvana

@@TheHansBeekhuyzenChannelthanks for your response. To clarify - I have both of those settings in Audirvāna. Trying to figure out which to use.

For eight years I worked to get the blue shirt the fashion for the high-end industry. Finally it's starting to work out now.

😂 brilliant response Hans. Simply brilliant

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What a waist of such a good DAC. Buy a 2nd hand network bridge for a drastic improvement of the sound quality!!

@@TheHansBeekhuyzenChannel Wouldn't that stop me from being able to use Dirac on my PC? It's a self-built one, with heavy power supply. I go optical to my DAC-60 for galvanic isolation.

I haven’t reviewed the topping so I can’t say.

@@TheHansBeekhuyzenChannel OK. Thanks for your prompt reply

Then you have another problem

@@TheHansBeekhuyzenChannel what do you mean? Sound improvent is significant vs 0dB 😉

No, it won't improve the sound quality.

@@TheHansBeekhuyzenChannel is there a clipping protection or -3dB option in a DMP-A6?

If you want to use MQA, you don't need nor should reduce thee digital level with 3 dBs.

Thanks for the reply. I have another question. Do you think that tidal in audirvana sounds better that only tidal aplication. I have computer in other room. When am listening i don,t see computer so i need remote control for changing songs. Tidal doesn,t have remote control but Audirvana does. But then i have to pay for both. Is there any other solution for this. Thanks for the reply.

The Bluesound can't do this.

You can't. It's not possible to reduce the volume in the digital chain prior to the DAC.

The C658 has both a network streamer and a DAC integrated, but doesn't expose pre-DAC controls of this type in the BluOS software. The volume limits in the BluOS settings are all on the analog output side. It's possible that NAD do this in their design in some way, but it's not disclosed as a feature so it's unknown.

Only the sound quality

Use the volume slider in the app to reduce the level.

@@TheHansBeekhuyzenChannel Thank you. If you could review the Teac UD 701N I'm sure you will like it :)

I haven’t reviewed dCS DACs so I can’t say

@@TheHansBeekhuyzenChannel Did a level matched comparison last night and found setting the DAC to -3dB versus 0dB (re-adjusting on the amp using pink noise) sounds marginally fuzzier and less natural. Just enough of a difference it might stand up to a blind test, maybe too subtle. But enough for me to pick what I like better (bypassing volume control). The Upsampler in this scenario is a unit of its own, by the way, internal clocks of all units synchronized by an external master clock, volume control in the DAC is digital in 0.5dB steps. Given time, I'll try the same with an older generation model as well, for which dCS informed me back in the era there's about a bit resolution loss per 6dB, and that the older models had less headroom (effect of using the volume control is more audible).

Yes it will work (I’ve been doing this for a while) however, when you switch to variable output it locks out the ‘MQA Eternal DAC’ feature. Not important to me but maybe for some . This is with a Node2i being used as a transport only.

Doing processing - like volume change - always gives some loss. But the loss I described caused by oversampling is a bigger loss. The nett sound quality result will be better when Volumio is set to -3 dB.

This is definitely correct!!! Volumio to AK or Sabre even my older BurrBrown this adjustment( lack of) appears to be the complaint of almost every DAC review because most of them lack the inclination for a deeper understanding. Hans your methodical approach cannot go without being appreciated in a sea of internet reviewers without it.. Thanks so Much!!!! You are a Legend

Doing no processing - like volume change - always gives some loss. But the loss I described caused by oversampling is a bigger loss. The nett sound quality result will be better when the Zenith is set to -3 dB.

@@TheHansBeekhuyzenChannel Thanks. Is there any way of translating a decibel reduction into a percentage?

it's about 3%

You might try it again, I think Roon has improved.

Try latest HQPlayer

You can only do that when using an external DAC

You shouldn't do it in Windows. The Windows volume control ruins more that the cure will fix. Use a bit perfect player and set that to - 3 dB.

Harsh, flat sound with lack of midrange

Almost every DAC suffers from this, even my Chord DAVE and the MolaMola Tambaqui. It’s because digital recordings are recorded not taking in account this phenomenon.

I am now a bit confused. I bought a Benchmark DAC3 because it deals with ‘intersample overs’ by having 3DB of headroom. But you seem to be saying that all DACs have the problem because of the ‘source’ material not taking account of it. Doesn’t that mean it is not ‘all’ DACs that have the problem but ‘all’ DACs will highlight the problem due to the source material containing it already?

I have no hands on experience with your DAC so I can’t help you there.

@@surreygraham6714 my previous dac Rme Adi 2FS dac had also - 2,5dB headroom. In my opinion at least aditional - 3 to - 5dB on digital volume was needed to receive natural sound. (of course still limited to Adi quality)

Simple science🤔

I have no experience with that DAC but I’m almost sure that isn’t doing a -3 dB.

@TheHansBeekhuyzenChannel Thanks for your reply. Let me do some searching & experimenting!

I had the E30 and as far as I know “pure dac” means that the pre-amplifier is disabled, so the E30 outputs at 100% volume.

I'm using E30 II with HQPlayer. The volume in windows set at 100%, but in HQP at -3db. Since I am using Windows 11 I have to install the Topping driver v5.62, the volume level in the driver at 100%. Using E30 II as pure DAC to L30(as pre-amp).

No,, it doesn’t.

The limit controls in BluOS are all on the output side, and don't affect this.

To me there's little point obsessing over the numbers when the end goal is sound, do a comparison between the two with audio you've heard a fair few times with a varied selection of instruments and styles, and if the difference is immediately noticeable then it's an issues, if it takes quite a while and some very hard focused listening then it's not an issue and of course if you can't hear a difference it's no issue, music will sound different to everyone's ears, and so with the quality based on the ears of the person, no amount of numbers will satisfy your ears more than something that sounds good, for example, I use a dragonfly black v1.5, a relatively affordable dac instead of a chord mojo which after hearing I decided wasn't justafyable for the price, while many would choose the mojo the black sounded better to me and that's music, the black numbers wise doesn't compete, you can get ancient speakers that sound wonderful with a noise floor near 10% while modern equipment is at 0.00003% or something silly, it's entirely dependable on your ears, always go by ear, numbers will always get better, doesn't tell the full story for how it sounds and it's the same here, just listen for the difference, if there's none it's not an issue or your specific equipment doesn't show the issue.

Whoa. Just asking.

@@labalo5 and I gave you a response appropriate in detail to the complexity of the subject.

There is no harm in having it switched on and its beneficiary when needed. I keep it switched on all the time.

Thx Hans

The -3 dB isn’t as effective in NOS DACs but it still does something. In Roon use the option I mentioned when upsampling.

@@TheHansBeekhuyzenChannel thank you! I do upsample so I have enabled the -3db headroom in Roon :)

Using Roon for upsampling? 😮, try HQplayer to do the upsampling😊

@@ferdyfransiskhosoloty2490 I agree that HQplayer is superior, but it's also rather costly and I am not a fan of the way it is integrated in Roon. For now im just gonna stick with the upsampling in Roon which is also quite good

You are fully right. But the number of good recordings is already limited and further decreasing due to the loudness war. Apart from that the upsamplers in DAC chips also overshoot.

@@TheHansBeekhuyzenChannel Alright, we'll call it a draw then? :)

@@adissabovicyou are both right!😉