16:09 😂😂 this is almost poetic, he complains about Lee's movement against wavedash mixups, and literally can't get the mixup to hit so he abandons it.

Respect to TMM. He can watch a persons take, give his response and still be respectful to the person too. 💙

Even his arguments are 50/50's.

fightinggm thinking kaz player can consistently punish -13 with electric is wild

might be one of the best lees ever, but these arguments are the green rank special

Always remember, just because someone is an amazing player with a character it doesnt mean they are good at debating about characters GM had like 0 arguements against Kazuya. I wish people would either not speak or be more thoughtful of what they are saying

it's kinda impressive how defensive people are of their mains, meanwhile everyone: your character is bs marduk mains: I know

he might be the best lee i’ve ever seen, but he also has the worst arguments i’ve ever heard

Arguing Kaz is strong because he can launch punish -13 is the same thing as calling Bryan the strongest character in the game because he has an unblockable launcher.

"he has 13 frames electric" lmao Okay now punish -13 on block with ewgf 😂😂

Now I want to see GM (Kazuya) vs TMM (Lee), not playing mains, just to prove their points, to test those strategies

Remember remember Lee has a hopkick. Period. You know how valuable and powerful is a hopkick in your arsenal?

He's such a good player. It's too bad his attitude is so counter productive. He doesn't compete even tho when he does he does pretty good. Always with tons of excuses . Makes enemies with everyone and will not take criticism. I really want to be a fan but he makes it so hard. He should have a great streaming/competition career but he is his own worst enemy.

If being able to 14f electric punish a minus 14 move is considered godlike, -nobody- very few will 13f electric punish in the heat of a match. Yeah Kazuya CAN 13f electric Lee's ws2,3 but that's in theory. In a real match on a tournament setting its a completely different thing. That alone is a weird AF take imo.

The matchup definitely favors Lee more. Kazuya can launch punish some of Lee's lows (just two of them since all you have to do is space out fc df4 and not do D3 all the time), but that doesn't say much for that whole matchup. Bringing up the PEWGF is not a good argument because that takes gods execution to do. 9 times out of 10, you are not launching that with a 13 frame electric due to block stuns and what not. You don't even see Kodee launch stuff like that and that man can do DF2 PEWGF very consistently. Also your points about how Kazuya doesn't have to deal with Lee shenanigans is very flawed because all you did was show some basic flowcharts any character can punish Lee for. Like DF1 into FF4, magic 4, or D3? Any character with standard movement can side step/walk and punish those my dude. You basically saying every character is a bad matchup for Lee. And you just say the same stuff over and over again. "Kazuya can just poke Lee" which is very false by the way. Feel like you just made the video because you saw someone who isn't a pro player make it. You not thinking about the strengths and weaknesses of your character and not comparing it to Kazuya's strength and weaknesses. And Lee's movement is definitely enough to side walk Kazuya's EWGF, FF3, hellsweep, or any move that can be side walked left. Saying if you "guess wrong" on pokes is just Tekken chief, I don't know what else to tell you. We deal with the same stuff when we play against Lee. The risk/reward to beat Kazuya in the neutral as Lee is way more rewarding and less risky than what Kazuya has to do to win the neutral against Lee. Kazuya's keepout is mostly EWGF, DF2 (if they are an idiot), and FF3 (for if the opponent is trying to duck electric). Lee has a variety of moves to stop Kazuya from doing EWGF in the neutral which is the biggest thing because that is his key move. He has FF4, D3, slide, and fc df4. The least riskiest and most rewarding move is FF4 since it is safe, goes under highs, gives Lee decent damage, and it's hard to whiff punish. The minute you getting Kazuya to stop EWGF because you are doing slide or FF4 means you can just go in and attack. If the Kazuya player starts doing DF2, bait it out because it has terrible whiff recovery and it is -12 on block. If they do FF3, that means you ducking too much and need to do smaller moves like DF1 and that move high evades sometimes. Now Lee's keepout is B4 hitman, FF4, magic 4, fc df4, hitman 1+2. All of these are good keepout moves. Kazuya cannot try to beat out your moves with EWGF because there is a 90% chance that it will trade with B4, get high crushed by FF4, get beat out by magic 4, or lose to fc df4. Kazuya has to be much more careful to get in on Lee or else he will get CH'd. When Kazuya gets in, it doesn't end there because his moves can be stepped too like you said. But what makes it dumb is that you have good get off moves like magic 4, D3 since it crushes highs, DF1 which also evades highs sometimes, and a punch parry. Most of Kazuya's high mids are punches, so doing punch parry isn't bad here. If you side walk left Kazuya a lot when he tries to pressure you, he has to start realigning and that's where those buttons come in. Kazuya player has to think way more offense until they can get the 50/50 vortex going. When Lee is trying to poke up Kazuya, the only thing he has look for is D1+2, DF2, and 112. He gets a big reward for D1+2 and DF2, but D1+2 is reactable and DF2 can be punished with acid rain up close. Now Lee isn't the best at pressuring to begin with, so your best bet is to keep playing keep out because that's the only way how a Kazuya player can get started on Lee.

He doesn’t get as much recognition as other lee mains but I definitely watch fightinggm

I admire TMMs ability to be respectful cause this was one lousy attempt to argue against him.

It was just so fun to watch, that two great Tekken players explaining why are their characters are a pain in the ass!😂😂😂

Imagine being one of the best Lee's out there just to have takes like these .

This feels like an epic rap battles of history for me

TMM knows Tekken very well as he's been playing for years. He can analyze and articulate the technical details and matchups of Tekken.

CHRISHINTHELEE Deserves a mention as the best Lee. He's the one who discovered the Hitman Shuffle. I need him Acknowledged.

I love these videos Responding to response videos

This is why mainman is the best Tekken youtuber, best info, guides, updates and gameplay. Comoared to other Mainman has done way more the franchise than profesional players ever will, best tekken player to me and he doesnt need a championship title to demonstrate that

If "never let bro cook again" was a person, it'd be fighting gm 😂

I commented on this video 2 weeks ago, where I made many of the same points TMM made. All I got was him half reading my comment and laughing at me. He's a great player, but I wouldn't expect any mature response from him, TMM.

It's a weird one for someone with such a competitive history to make these sorts of statements, I'm a Lee main and it sounds to me like he's just describing Lee's flaws in general, none of that stuff is unique to Kazuya (except twin pistons)

I like to imagine that these players both lost a deathmatch to each others respective characters

Interesting. At least we have a discussion. Theory fighting is dull but I learned some counter strategies there. Thanks.

The matchup essentially comes down to who can get a life lead and play turtle, since both their engage tools are awful

The block stun and df2 perfect electric isn't fully frame perfect. You can press forward for up to about 5f and then the down and down-forward as just frames. Try it out on the CBT if you're one of those with hands. TJU doesn't have a buffer period and it has to be perfect 16f every time. It's around the same difficulty as perfect electric since you go from one direction to the opposite. Taunt Mach Punch is arguably the hardest 2 sequence move in the game. If you're legit doing 13f electrics then you should be able to do this since it's 1f slower. Sergei Mazter doesn't do all the theoretical things TMM and FGM spoke about and he's the highest performing Mishima.

Whatever gm was smoking before recording his video must've been some good shit

"He has other safe lows!" "All lows are unsafe because of parry, getting to launch isn't a big deal" lol

Had the pleasure of playing his Lee. I got mopped. Obviously he's great with the character and has a strong understanding of the game in general - as one would expect from a pro player. Just odd that his counter arguments are theoretical and not about what does work in real time matches.

If you are eating too many hellsweep mixups and you struggle with side walking it means you either don't know your opponent's timing or give him too many frames...remember that Lee has an 11f M4 if your opponents likes to go for hellsweep mix everytime he's a bit plus. I main Gigas, get launched on my only +frame low and can't step hellseep mix almost entirely and I would still take on a Kazuya anyday with him over Lee who pretty much has a perfect poke, counter hit and keepout game with crouching 50/50 that's completely BS at the wall.

I respect tmm opinion on this matter. It was nice to have a debate like this with two different opinions on a character match up regardless if we agree with each other. In all i dont think the match up is one sided in any direction

Both of them say some ridiculous shit about this match up. But saying pewgf is harder than taunt jet upper is the most ridiculous. Also, the downplay of mains in fighting games is an epidemic and isn’t necessary. It’s tekken. Every character has bullshit that is hard to deal with. Tekken 7 is very well balanced in character strength overall. Yes some characters are harder to use than others but if you have good execution then you can win with any character. It’s ok if you don’t have good execution bc there are characters that don’t require heavy execution. And you’re a scrub if you lose and blame it on “easy mode character.” Nah, player. It’s your fault you lost.

all of his point can be applied to every characters in the game

Given his accolades and achievements with Lee not just on this game but past TEKKEN titles too! It’s undisputed fact that GM has the best Lee in the world.

This sounds like 2 top players sayin Hey your flowchart beats my flowchart! But in reality at the highest level they both have tools to deal with each other and do BIG damage on good reads.

The 13 frame electric punish really was such a selfdiss, i have personally only seen it once in tournament in t7 in years. And never seen it ingame myself. Its so difficult that its not even worth mentioning and makes him immediately look unbelievable, which he is not because he is a legend , but he should have stressed this is literally only on paper.

It’s kinda interesting how someone good can still have bad takes. Like it makes me wonder if these players simply have above average reaction time or something and that’s it.

That Tekken 8 mod is sick

At this point they are “arguing” with you just to be in a video

Punishing 13 f with electric every time is pure perfection And i dont know many people who have perfected him even in pro scene

The only thing that i cant imagine is, 13f electric was like normal day to that. (Yeah if you using keyboard, not suprise)

not every character can do 2 jabs into powercrush and recover to duck

8:33 pain

As his former rival, agree with GM. 👍

16:41 So this is what the Swe stands for!

I saw it once in a tournament kazuya blocked a -13 move from yoshi and punished it with an electric

Get him tmmswe you tell that Lee playing player

I'm calling it now. He's going to find one clip of a tournament player punishing hop-kick with PEWGF and say you can do it because it happened once in tourney and never again. One outlier is going to be his whole argument I promise you.

TLDR: "the reason the match up is difficult is because my character is trash"

Everyone pretty has to deal with wavedash mixups if the Mishima sets it up right. However, its not some inescapable blender or vortex. Even if that were the case, Kazuya is coin flipping and it won't give you consistent wins. You have to play the game with Lee of course, but we should see this matchup between two seat Lords with these characters.

holy shit i have a lot of respect for fightinggm but maybe he isnt explaining properly because his points are so dumb. as tmm says most of the stuff he says is universal, not just because of kazuya's specific moves or matchups i mean all he is saying is that kazuya players are patient and not smashers thats why its not a bad matchup. like what?

Punishing what you just recorded seems quite easy, I need to agree that in this instance Lee is easy to counter

Love how this entire response boils down to "you lose as Kazuya only if you're bad," "you can punish on block," and "Lee has weaknesses." Every point is either too universal and ends up not being Kazuya-specific, unrealistic due to the scenarios where certain counterplay shows up (you have to be in your opponent's head frame 1 to hit some of these not even considering EWGF punish), or just irrelevant due to it not appearing/being used incorrectly in the context of the matchup. It doesn't make any points FOR Kazuya, just random heresay to believe because top player. Unfortunately, people aren't as predictable as one string and will apply ways to force mistakes throughout any game, set, and match. Edit: "Lee can get mixed up by Kazuya the mix character." ok

i absolutely hated when GM said that FF+4 and magic 4 are hard read moves No they are not both are safe on block and you can throw them out alot more then kazuya's df+2 or D+1+2. he talked in the video as if you can check for FF+4 with df2 thats Stoopid df2 isnt a safe mid counterhit launcher you can just throw out.

Did we just watch a FGM video that reestablishes that Lee Chaolan has to play neutral???

The amount of coping and seething on both sides is hilarious.

All this happened because one one day in chat, I asked TMM what was kazuya's worst matchup. Sorry Adrian-san D:

Yo, do you guys remember when lil majin called launch Leroy balanced?? This is kinda similar to that claim NGL 😂😂 This is one of the worst Kazuya's matchups that likely in order go: Lili, Steve, lee

fightinggm wants a money match now, and he says you have to play lucky chloe, wtf?? when is this happening?

gm has always been weird lol. good player.

LEE SO OP

We are talking about WS2, 3, not hopkick are we😅 It's much easier to block punish Bryan's WS3,4 than Kazuya's df2... It's far easier to block punish the last hit of a multiple hit move, than a single move...yet it's still very hard to launch WS2,3

i recognize GM has skill, but his takes are subpar and his attitude as well usually.

that's the trouble with fightinggm. I remember watching a tutorial from him a while ago where he said, post buff, that lee can't keep out at the highest level and has to rush down. And because he has bad tools to get in, he's bad. As if his keepout and screen control doesn't already let him get in. Dude's really good but he's as negative as any green rank dvj player. He talks like he just needs to pick a more straightforward top tier lmao

Change my mind: m4 is stronger than electric in t7.

8:29 NOT ONE PUNISH ITS TIME TO GET ON TRT ADRIAN

Best Lee responds to TMM responds to best lee responds to tmm

POINTLESS ARGUMENT ( It depends On The Player knowledge And Motorskills Memory, REFLEXES, MEN. ENDURANCE, ATTENTIVENESS, PATIENTENCE - REAL WORLD SKILLS !!!!!

BATTLE OF THE DOWNPLAYERS lmao... only way to settle this is for them to go first to 10, with both of them trying their hardest to lose on purpose. Only then will we know who is the worst character in the game

Wooooow best lee says “ lee has to get in” best way to do keep out i guess woohoo. Pado ftw ngl

Tmm forgot mirio

is fightingGM going to destroy Imyourfather?

as far as lows go they're still gonna use d3 anyway it's too good

Hes a great Lee player but i gotta agree with TMM more. Not a kazuya killer tho but Lee can give a lot of people a hard time.

I'mYourFather > FightingGM imo. They need to do a ft10 though

One of the hardest characters to play in the game regardless TMM's point stands Lee annihilates Kazuya

No one likes when their favorite character's bullshit is called out

Im your Father be like : Hold my beer

idk Lei's 10 frame punish is cracked after its buffs, 11 into snake plus 6 guarantee 50/50 (except against master raven the only character to beat both options) which leads into another 50/50. if you get it right you can win a round easily.

I thought it was going to be Father 😑

Since Fighting GM lost to Chrishin the Lee doesn't that make Chrishin the better Lee?

Best Lee is pado

What he's saying against Kazuya countering Lee can be pretty much said to any other character, that's just how tekken is played. LOL

Half his points aren't kazuya specific at all. Almost any character can beat lee with good movement, or switching up their moves

To recap this man here thought all Kazuya main are god and can easily do a i13 Electric launch punish in a real match after blocking a -13 move Yeah good luck doing that Also he says Lee have bad movement while casually stepping an electric at -1 that not all characters can

10:39 I highly doubt that, Lee has the worst jab range in the game, and you have no idea how many times Lee's jab don't reach after blocking an unsafe move :(

At least it's not some random person ranting for 30 minutes, but a pro player is much better

this move is -13, kazuya can launch punish that with EWGF most Kazuya players: punish with 1, 1, 2

Wouldn’t know this is a pro player

FightingGM is literally so easy to make fun of.

Funny how the dude who mains a millionaire steals from the fgc

Everybody saying their character is weak. TMM thinks kaz is weak, K-wiss also thinks hwoarang is weak. Lol

I think most of you didn't get the point. (including MMSWE) I don't believe he was saying Kazuya is a bad matchup for Lee. He was also not saying that Lee is an easy matchup for Kazuya. He was simply stating that Lee is not a terrible matchup for Kazuya. In other words... it's totally playable.

Fightinggm is a bald washed up has been, TMM still got his hair #tmm swagger

I don't question GMs skill, but he is low key coping.