The selling point of Bun is that it cares about performance and you don't need 200mb of dependencies just to use typescript If Node kills off Bun by adding native typescript support and making their libraries fast then Bun will have served its purpose and everyone will be happy

shout out to my fellow "forced to use windows at work" devs

Trolling you mid article is absolutely the new meta

"node would not optimize performance unless something like Bun came along" these are facts right here 👏👏

This article pulled psychomantis and I'm all here for it

Ugh my main problem with this article is that it pretends that innovation in npm etc would have happened without competition. A lot of times, it's easier to start with something new that has different priorities. Yarn's demise was a result of it defaulting everyone to use PnP in v2, which is really difficult to get working to this day. No one wants to spend their time reading tooling docs just to get started (and when there are easier alternatives).

I think you're right in the general sense on any technology: In 20 years we'll sit here with our VR glasses and see you in 3D how you argue "we haven't learned anything from Rust's mistakes"

In the company I work for, the use of Windows is mandatory, as it makes it easier for them to control and monitor everything the employee does. This is actually quite common in highly corporate companies where the owners constantly suspect employees of potential data theft or similar actions. So sometimes, we simply don't have the option to NOT choose Windows; it's mandatory, end of story. And this is when the problems arise with technologies that don't support Windows, causing them to simply become obsolete more quickly.

I use bun for the typescript support. I don't care that it installs packages half a second faster or slower tbh fam

sure, 90% of programmers might not be on Windows, but I'm pretty sure most of the developers start off on Windows and then realize that there are better options out there. So Windows support is important because if you don't have it you're missing out on a lot of new developers. And new developers are the ones that are most likely to try out the new shiny thing (library, framework, engine, etc....)

Are we forgetting ESM + CommonJS in the same files? Game changer for anyone who has ever had to re-write an entire library because it wasn't ESM compatible.

Some of us sadly don't have a choice. If the employer dictates "Windows Server 2017 and nothing else", you can't do much. And yes, switching jobs is always an option. But if the pay is high enough, you just accept the fact and start coding (begrudgingly).

Competition forces npm to innovate, if it wasn't for yarn, npm probably would have never improved. I imagine bun will have the same effect. But this isn't a great argument for saying "just stick with npm", because at any given point in time, it's losing out by some metric to an alternative.

Oven wants to provide integrated support for running JS services, so Bun is mostly designed to do that. They specifically want to support most stuff immediately with lower complexity, and they don't really care about the heavily complicated stuff because they won't be their customers, they already have their own infrastructure to run everything. Coverage of most and not all is fine for their targets, and honestly I'm also happy if the people that want to use Bun but can't do a good review of their code base and remove complexity that limits them to use Bun. Win-win.

Guess what? You don’t have to use JS on the server lol

I work in healthcare IT and _everything_ is Windows, both at the company I work for and all the hospitals and labs we work with.

All I know is yarn actually works for the project that npm refuses to install anything on

Name call was actually genius got me laughing

For development purposes, Windows is still the most preferred OS according to 2022 StackOverflow Dev Survey, so...

That comment about not being able to get sound working on Linux hits me in the feels. When I first learned to program and wanted to put Ubuntu on an older machine, I thought I was stupid because I couldn't get sound to work.

Another reason for Windows. At work we support NVDA (the screen reader) and I was working on automating screen reader tests using guidepup as a proof of concept. I had to use yarn instead of our usual npm because npm has a bug with linking together monorepos in Windows.

<a href="#" class="seekto" data-time="553">9:13</a> "MaYbE iF yOu VaLuE sPeLlInG, tOuGh GuY" I am dead 😂

One place where tree shaking can make a MASSIVE difference is when you have a library of 100s or 1000s of icons, but your app only uses a few

Honestly, gaming on Linux is better than ever this year. Valve working anticheat makers to get them working, proton 8 fixing a lot of ubisoft multiplayer issues and generally just getting improved, and more and more games using the vulkan api make the gaming argument against Linux pretty paper thin. Especially with Linux consoles like the Steam Deck.

<a href="#" class="seekto" data-time="1973">32:53</a> BABE WAKE UP ITS TIME FOR YOUR QUARTERLY LINGUISTICS LESSON ON ENDONYMS VERSUS EXONYMS

A small side note: I have a WSL setup with Docker installed without the Docker Desktop Application. However, I can't update anymore the Docker Version, because the installation script tells me to install it on Windows. It's not, it doesn't runs in the WSL, but they want to force you to use a License for the Docker Desktop App

outside the US mac users are such a small market percentage that probably Windows has more programmers use than MacOS

I use Windows because my photo editing software doesn't run on Linux and I hate MacOS more than Windows

all i care about with bun is that it’s a all in one toolchain

<a href="#" class="seekto" data-time="510">8:30</a> This man actually called out Primagen before the reaction video was even made. That is hilarious.

yarnv3 is really good (has some minor compat issues but it's blazingly fast)

Great chat, the idea of having competition forced changes, that is the idea of all computing, those changes can be speed or other items.

I was waiting for this comparison, I knew this would happen 😆

For those of us peasants with sluggish internet connections, npm used to be quite sluggish and would often freeze during installation. Comparatively, yarn was quicker than npm. Personally, I never utilized yarn workspaces; instead, I opted for NX. While npm has made some improvements over the years, it still encounters occasional problems. This year, I made the switch to pnpm (despite its rather unappealing name). I don't foresee myself transitioning to Bun any time soon, possibly not for another three years. Currently, I'm grappling with pnpm issues that were never present when I used yarn.

So, Hermes is, essentially, a JVM-like thing for JavaScript? Also, it's probably "public source" as it's used by Facebook to make React Native.

One thing that makes bun really attractive you dont have to wory about typescript and imorting libarys. It just works! Every thing lese i dont really care about.

<a href="#" class="seekto" data-time="225">3:45</a> you definitely should support windows. There's a huge amount of developers using it for work

Yes, Vue is great. You should absolutely invite Evan You on stream one day. Watching him remain level-headed and mostly unbiased while being interviewed(interrogated?) by Theo is one of the most impressive things I've ever seen.

Maybe at some point there will be a package manager/framework that doesn't have a silly name. There's gotta be an "upgrade" over Bun called ButtoX, I'm 100% sure it's gonna happen

Don’t be silly, your on twitch. Where gamers live. Ofc we use windows. It’s easier to do that then swap OSs every time I want to game

Loving the vids bro!

Honestly, I think I'm on board with this article.

I remember worrying about runtime versions and using nvm or n now I just use nix to create dev environments and it works for every language I've used without polluting my PATH

I use Windows with Cygwin and sometimes WSL. I just find the GUI the easiest to use and not a hack like most Linux ones feel, and also I can't get along with MacOS, or their laptops build either. Apps "just work" in general on Windows, plus several pieces of hardware with Windows-only or better drivers vs Linux. My work laptop is a Dell Precision (basically a business XPS) and is a beautiful machine.

OS market share among developers: 60% Win 45% Lin 45% Mac.

Holy sheet, didn't expect to see my outlandish Hermes Engine beliefs shared by The Primeagen!!!

dumb, I have used Linux since the mid 90's but i also use Windows. These tools need to work on Windows.

A question about Stylus, is the extension to change css? did die? how do you do that now?

this is why you wait for v2 before committing customer projects. bun if nothing else has opened a conversation about performance. competition is good. bun could also feed ideas into the main nodejs as well. ideas work both ways. bun also needs zig to get to version 1.

moonrepo/proto is a version manager for Bun. It's even mentioned in the Bun docs.

"I hope WSL2 works for you" BASED

When I started learning to program I used windows because that’s what I had and I didn’t know any better. It’s nice to have things available that allow you to learn without buying another computer, or installing a new os.

+1 Windows. I am generally against Apple's forced obsolescence between different OS versions and architectures (going back to the '90s...) and their overall hostility to the self-repair world. That + the reality distortion field felt too cultish, so I stuck with Windows.

To be honest, the whole project setup thing and the very slow transpile step (assumes tsc) is gradually eating my sanity away, and actively pushing me to try out golang more and more. If neither Bun nor Node decide to catch up, we'll just going to see more devs like me quitting for golang altogether for backends at least.

<a href="#" class="seekto" data-time="488">8:08</a> Best moment on this channel by far 😂

Windows for me is because we've been a microsoft shop forever, but switched to Node/AngularJS right before I started. We've relied on MSSQL pretty heavily, and linux/macs don't have as good of tools for it. Until recently, our servers were also all windows, and remoting on to them is more of a pain on other servers. Our DNS set up is also wonky on non-windows machines, amongst some other things. Our junior devs are mostly on mac's, but they don't tend to touch that stuff much at all.

the for windows development is so big, is it that bad that i managed to make my entire workstation on windows and still be able to play games? (don't start with wine) and yes I know how to work on Linux

I totally agree with your final statement.

Also yarn runs fine on windows when I was still using yarn a couple years ago. Also i think many people use yarn. Most docs always have yarn. Saying its dead is just not true. Also I think the api of yarn is much easier than npm I think.

pnpm is the best named thing ever. I can copy an npm command, press p in my terminal, paste, and it just works

What's you think about asdf for managing versions?

"Is Vue really that good?" Fuck yes. It's the top tier library. No sarcasm; it's brilliant.

I had no issue running yarn on windows myself, I tried it out because yarn berry had pnp which I thought might have replaced pnpm for saving disk space. As for why windows, a lot of companies do dotnet developement, personally I used to use gentoo but windows is just easier to update without breaking. But for windows WSL2 has isues, you have to run the main operating system in HyperV this can impact things like games if it's a home machine. Msys2 would be better, but native windows support is something your going to need if you want to replace or make it more popular than node at some point, since it's not just about personal use but everyone everywhere. When it comes to saving disk space under node_modules, before bun you ether had pnpm or yarn berry with pnp, but pnp under yarn berry didn't always work that well without changes to the packages which I think is why pnpm has become more popular. If bun can do at least what pnpm is doing (as far as file linkages) and work under windows then that should be a good thing.

I wonder what prime would use with todays tech for web dev

The windows part is quiet important for beginners who have just picked coding for the first time using their own laptop, home computer or whatever.. also important for computer science / engineering students who have a windows machine for their other software needs

Bun install still pretty impressive. Hope it drives pnpm and yarn to rustville or it’s hamlet zigtowne

My wife is a travel nurse and we bought an rv so we could move every few months. I ditched my mac for an extra monitor because I didn't have much room. To make this work I moved my dev environment to windows. I'm not a big fan of programing on windows and miss my mac but it just made my life easier

I don't really understand the arguments that it locks you into Bun. Like yeah, but so does using Node. So does using Babel. So does using React.

Not forced to use windows. I used Linux for years as a desktop. It sucked. Pain in the ass to get anything done. It’s an okay headless server but a massive pain in the ass for real work.

I've never seen someone fall in love with Windows in real time before.

I'm developing business software for Windows desktop users as my job. What OS should I use to code those programs?

The tribal are more interested in cursing at the lane changers than focusing on their own - typically ending in rear end impact collisions

exonym vs endonym: learned something. Thanks.

This guy saying that Vite requires as much configuration as Webpack is a total joke. That was the biggest L take of the month. I haven't had a Vite config longer than 20 lines and it requires one plugin at most. Webpack was a beast, an ejected create-react-app config for Webpack was hundreds of lines with like 20 different plugins for minification, polyfilling, importing non-JS files in components. All of this took days to port form Webpack 4 to 5 or whatever the hell the version was.

what's the other article ThePrimeagen got quoted on?

Just had this debate yesterday with my buddy while we were working on a SharePoint/AppService integration and deploying code from top-level Windows that we transferred over from a virtualized Ubuntu environment so that we could use bash to work efficiently in development. So many tools specifically in the Microsoft ecosystem don't play nice with Linux that they almost have us hostage in our work environments already, but then they hold our games hostage too. I say the next generation of games AND professional software needs to be built Linux first. Don't leave the Windows users behind professionally, but I wanna see more Linux/Mac Only games to balance out the ecosystem. Not gonna make very much on them initially, but if they get enough exposure, you'll gradually see more adoption for the other platforms. Not even a huge Mac fan personally, but it at least tries to be Unix-compatible on most things.

Amazon was extremely allergic to directly depend on industry standard open source libraries or support them financially in their devices sub-org. Everything was wrapped in crudly constructed abstractions that would kill entire products.

<a href="#" class="seekto" data-time="220">3:40</a> - Yes, you should support windows. There is a countless number of people who could be learning it, are using windows and do not know or can not run a VM.

I totally get the "README's that only specify yarn instructions" argument, but I think that's honestly because so many people skip the fundamentals. Yes, the JavaScript ecosystem is immensely complicated, but I think it's relatively simple to explain dependency management as a concept, and that's transferable to so many other places.

i think compiling code to bytecode would be really fast and memory efficient, lets hope someone make a js engine i hermes js

tbh yarn has always been faster at installing and is still true to this day. I also get less weird cache issues with yarn, so I got a little confused when the article said that yarn is slower than npm?

Does doing all your development in wsl even count as using windows?

im flexible on what os to use but my company forces me to use windows so im stuck with it.

Windows Andy here as well. For decades windows has been the go to platform for game developers, since companies such as Nintendo, Sony and obviously MS, didn’t offer any tools on other platforms. You basically had no choice.

That sounds like mlm logic Where if you get two people to sign up under you and they both get two people to sign up under them you'll get the entire world population in no time at all

@<a href="#" class="seekto" data-time="1620">27:00</a> Is this argument against JSX essentially an argument against all logic-filled templating engines? Because I do agree that adding logic into templates can make for some complicated abstractions and templates and is the main reason why I really like Mustache's logic-less templates. They offer the bare minimum in functionality (conditional, inverse conditional, sections with a ranging functionality, and partials). The rest of your needs come in the form of data pre-processing using whatever language or tooling you like.

For me, regarding the windows stuff, i used for almost 10-12 years ubuntu (12-10 years ago)-> arch -> arch derivates - > manjaro but decided to stop that because i wanted the stability of the apps (it broke my OS about 3 times a year and needed some tinkering) that are already installed and configured and i am fine with using arch in WSL, Also, what i install in WSL does not break the main system, everything else keeps working on the main os and i can do whatever i want in that machine. The other advantage is that i can have multiple distros with different package versions and they run very fast in WSL. If something breaks, i can just reinstall that WSL distro and keep all the other configs i have...

windows is horrible as an OS but has so many features that even when buggy help so much. And now that containers are so big you dont even have to install stuff natively so everything is just easier.

i think he's kinda right, it would be amazing if in a few years npm is extremly fast has it's own testrunner, bundler and more, that's why competition is GREAT!

Now I understand why there is such a high demand and such a low offer of platform engineers, very little amount of people want to deal with linux.

"I hate windows" earned my like on this one edit: jesus christ it got so much better later in the vid

primes windows take is goated, (btw i use arch btw, btw)

The lesson should be that competion is good, right? Would NPM still get faster without yarn? Not sure.

guys bun's pretty lightweight as well. i dont do much with it as of now, only bun install and running npm scripts with it, bun run dev* simply takes 20x less ram than nodejs here, like under 15 mb :D

This is simply how the world works. It's how we innovate. npm has gaps and inefficiencies, yarn fills them, and there are 2 outcomes: yarn becomes the new defacto, or npm evolves. This guy is Monday-morning Quarterbacking the point that yarn was somehow a mistake because npm was able to evolve. But what if npm wasn't able to? Because that happens too. There is no reason to bash new tech and innovation, it's how we all get better as individuals, as a community, and as an industry as a whole. And yes, some tech will come and go as a result, and that's fine.

I feel kinda wierd, listening to an experienced developer flabbergasted by the fact that people use windows

Windows+WSL is the best desktop/dev experience. does coding linux under WSL count as "Windows" or "Linux" ?

A lot of devs use windows, a lot more than you would think. I've been in the industry for 25 years and I still use Windows (I do have a dual boot of Gentoo on my desktop and a system 76 laptop). Originally I did it because I am a gamer, but I keep doing it so that I can work on Windows APIs when working on projects. There are a ton of windows devs but it seems like they don't really run in the circles that I do, and so usually I end up being the only windows dev on a project. When 90% of the dev space uses Windows but 0% of your colleagues use Windows, you still need to be there so that you can actually have proper support for the OS, it's kind of a vicious cycle.

Authors breaking the fourth wall is crazy

<a href="#" class="seekto" data-time="1331">22:11</a> we all know soon there is going to be a BUN polyfill for nodejs and we all are going to use that regardless of our code runs on bun or not