Libertarians already exist (they just have no traction whatsoever)

@@LeonSteelpaw Yeah 'cause their party sucks. I would consider myself a libertarian for the most part, but I usually end up voting Republican because somehow the Libertarian party is even worse than the Republican party.

@@joshuadelaughter7968 Please excuse my lack of education on the Libertarian party, but assuming they politically align with their name, wouldn't the republican party be much further from their core values than the democratic party? (unless ofc the parties values are also subject to the heavily right-skewed political system in the US)

@@LeonSteelpaw Yeah, okay, but we don't need a "Via" of political parties. Next! (I'm saying next potential third party, we don't need a "NeXT" of political parties, either.)

​@lyxsm You are correct. The GOP is much closer to the Democrat Party than Liberterian.

More exciting indeed lol

@@Beryesa. Yes, and guess what. You dont need to buy a hole new computer to upgrade !!!

That's the spirit

@@guillaumelagrange9878 not sure I would consider it an "upgrade" haha

@@spencersolberg I mean there is up and down, but we need to wait before judging. And you can not not be excited, right?

It was made for efficiency, but not entirely in the way we see that now. When Acorn ended up designing the first ARM CPU, a huge inspiration was their experience with the 6502 CPUs they had been using so far, which excelled in its efficiency, but for which development into 16bit and 32bit variations had essentially stalled by the mid 1980s (in spite of the 65816). Needing less for doing the same or more is a key design feature of the 6502, and one which Acorn totally adapted for their ARM design. In fact it is a large part of why they did not go with the at the time 2 mainstream 16/32bit microprocessor designs (x86 and 68k). So, efficiency was a huge factor even in the first ARM design.

True, but the power efficiency element way exceeeded any of the developers’ expectations. There’s a famous story of an ARM test system running perfectly on trickle power, because someone powered a peripheral on for testing and the ghost power down the lines was enough to boot the system.

Just being designed from the ground up as a RISC machine was already a win for the ARM. The whole point of creating load/store and RISC architectures is that they were faster, more efficient, and allowed for much better pipelining - which of course, is also a practice adopted in modern x86 processors which translate the CISC instructions into RISC microinstructions.

@@elphive42 I think by now ARM has exceeded any of the developer's expectations in about everything. While they clearly did set out to create a future proof CPU, it ending up developing into the CPU of choice for many devices, and the only viable alternative to the x86 architecture, possibly replacing it over time, must have been a wild dream, and not a realistic expectation at the time.

@@ElShogoso Modern x86 processors prove that while a RISC design may be superior, complex instruction sets still have their place. Imagine if all of that complexity was embedded in the operating system!

Intel, AMD and NVidia on GPUs, and AMD, Intel and Qualcomm on CPUs. If they made socketable Snapdragon CPUs, imagine all the combos we could make now.

And Apple right?

@@BlueEyedVibeChecker why would you want socketed mobile cps their performance is atrocious

We've had three x86 companies for a very long time, but Via doesn't do much with their x86 license anymore.. except let China make crappy products with it every once in a while.

We've had 3 companies, it's just that Windows on ARM sucked until recently, assuming you're using a high end ARM chip of course

I do :P

Even still, this has more to do with laptops than desktops

I'm not a fanboy, I just don't like Microsoft as a company. Hey let me know how many subscriptions you end up having to get to use one of these. Let me know when the ONLY software you can load on these is via the Microsoft Store, because that's the intention with these, for Microsoft to become the same as Apple, controlling the entire ecosystem. Just think of all those software tools you used to load for free but now to get onto that laptop you have to get it through the store that Microsoft charges money from the devs to have that app available on their store so no more freeware. Let me know when this actually does the OPPOSITE of what you say and Microsoft stops supporting X86-64 and the only way you buy an Intel or AMD processor is to use Linux. Microsoft has NEVER been about competition and that's laughable.

I kind of do, only for the sake of being able to milk out every drop of efficiency on an aged platform despite everyone wanting them to move on

​@@johndoh5182 You're assuming this commenter wants Microsoft to win, instead of microsoft to compete. Everything you mention there is a future where BOTH intel and amd fail to compete with qualcomm, and somehow there is no other option for windows except qualcomm CPUS. It's a lot of mental hoops to jump through to think that's anything close to what's going to happen, let alone what we want.

I could not agree more I'm so sick and tired of everything being pushed towards artificial intelligence I want actual real intelligence not some bull crap that some human thinks he created that the permanent thing then in the end he forgets he still has to micromanage from the back end and I'm not just talking about the developer the damn end-user shouldn't have to do that

I can’t wait until the AI bubble pops.

the PCs are around 1500

​@@PCs454Where I'd say, either these things and Software are fckin on point day one or they'll be a giant flop for the 1000th time because they tried to shoot for MacBook prices ...

@@kayburcky7146 well the older surface books were around that price too and they had like intel i5's

You can pay with your kidney, so you can hold your ARM and leg 😂

I understood that reference [/steve_rogers]

Good for you, want a cookie? Good boy.

okey

Windows gets pissed off at regular hardware, I can't imagine how this is going to go with ARM. They would need to completely rebuild windows from the ground up for me to ever consider going back. 😂

@@fledgeking Theres... theres literally windows built for ARM since 2012? xD

@RAEJDER I'm talking bigger than that- widespread adoption and, therefore, multiple variants from multiple companies in one generation being used by lots of average people. Windows is a pain in the ass with drivers and updates breaking shit.

IBM makes their own still they’re badass

Isn‘t Apple already the third consumer CPU company? Or are they not counting because you get their CPUs only in Apple products?

Apple AMD Nvidia ibm Qualcomm Samsung Intel and whoever licensed arm besides Nvidia Apple and Qualcomm

MediaTek

@@UwePieper it is arm

I really hope we get open source performant drivers for these NPUs sooner rather than later. Not that I'm bullish on AI features being baked into the desktop, but there are plenty of fun use cases for chips that can multiply large matrices really fast. Plus: AMD's XDNA cores are FPGAs, which, if they're ever fully unlocked, could be *awesome* for retro gaming.

You're lucky that Tuxedo has already announced they're gonna offer a model with Linux installed then.

I've been running arm64 debian on Raspberry Pis without an issue for years. I'm assuming it will work with snapdragon too

I often ran in problems with Linux. I use it from time to time, old laptop, hp thin Client, and two raspberries. Dumb me though there is no problem in using any Bluetooth adapter ... Than I googled, saw I needed to type in various commands in terminal to activate BT and the typical Linux people suggesting flashing the firmware for the adaptor... I really don't know why Linux is struggling 😅 This was only one of my minor problems I had over the years. Normally it takes only so e minutes when in get problems and something don't work.

@@Nordlicht05 well, ok, could be. I'm more the old Linux user, started over 2 decades ago as a student changing in the starting Windows 95 era over to the upcoming Linux world, just because I loved DOS and Windows 95 was totally crap in my eyes. It's hard to say how a Linux Distro behaves in the hands of someone, expecting the same as with Windows. I buy and create all my hardware with Linux in mind. Windows is just running on my Gaming Rig, maximal reduced, just to run Steam.

Currently, but that doesnt stop the company making them swappable in the near future. Theyre not going to spend the R&D costs to make them swappable unless they see its worth it to.

@@IdealIdeas100 They're never going to sell socketed ARM chips because that requires adopting a standard for firmware, interrupt controllers, and onboard device addressing. There's a lot of stuff that the PC platform takes for granted that on ARM gets done differently by every single SoC vendor, *per chip*, and thus motherboards have to be customized to only run one specific chip. There'd be no benefit to socketing basically any ARM processor. There are two exceptions: - That one ARM Zen 1 chip AMD had on their roadmap that was canned a year before Ryzen's launch - Apple Silicon Apple and AMD are both PC companies, so they understand the value of backwards compatibility intuitively and design their chips accordingly. We never actually saw what the ARM Ryzen looked like, but had it been successful it would have probably ran UEFI and all the ARM standards for "PC-like" hardware compatibility. Apple doesn't follow the standards *at all*, but they also have an internal policy of treating their hardware interfaces as if they were standard and not breaking them. So instead of UEFI or GIC you have iBoot and AIC, but they change rarely. This is why the Asahi Linux team is able to support the hardware as well as they do. Of course, Apple is never going to sell chips that would be useful for anyone other than themselves, and AMD only considered ARM because they thought they could court Amazon... who decided to make their own ARM chips. AMD already has an x86 cross-license so it makes no sense for them to sell ARM when x86 has a *better software ecosystem* and *always will* by virtue of the fact that it's not made for embedded shitboxes. You pick ARM because you can license and customize it. You can't socket a customized part like that.

And so does every laptop CPU nowadays so your point only stands for desktop where ARM barely exists

Knowing Qualcomm, they will never be user-swapable and they are going to keep most information about how they work away from even kernel developers.

Unfortunately, that's also where alot of x86 is finding its bottle neck to be in. It's struggling to get the bandwidth required between the CPU/GPU and the ram. Zen 4 was supposed to have 16 core Igpu variant but even the 7840u was getting bottlenecked by 7500mt ram. So we're gonna start seeing more and more SoC- like design for the upcoming years.

This video is aimed at the general public. The vast majority of computers used by people run either Intel or AMD processors, plus some Macs in the mix. No popular retail shops sell MediaTek laptops as "nobody" is buying them relative to Intel/AMD, so they don't exist in the minds of consumers. Now there's a huge push for Snapdragon laptops; there'll probably be more of them sold in the next few months than all the ARM laptops that have been sold in the past 6 years. That is why it's counted as the third.

You win best comment. I thought ampere was the third option anyways 😂

A resurrection was briefly tried a couple of years back with ARM and RISC-V processors in the works but the Pandemic flatlined it. 😉

Technically Cyrix designs became VIA C3, and that eventually ended up in the form of Zhaoxin

When I get my hands on a laptop with one of these chips it’s gonna run Linux. I haven’t had windows on any of my computers for at least 2 years and I don’t plan on going back

I was going to ask how long before we get a proper Linux system--could actually motivate me to buy a new computer.

@@jordangibbons2331 It was announced that they support normal UEFI boot, so you likely will be able to load whatever you want

@@michaelwright2986 We've had linux running on ARM processors for YEARS. Including major apps running native rather than with emulation.

@@hanelyp1 D'uh, yes, I was confused there with Asahi Linux, which is for Apple silicon, I think. Or have I still got it wrong?

Other KZfaqrs have uploaded videos today that show a 50% reduction in performance when using an emulator for X86/X64 programs. Native programs run well but the translation sucks.

@@Kmcornell23I’ve also seen people saying it’s about 90% as fast as native

@@Kmcornell23 What videos have you seen? Literally all videos I've seen from good reviewers put it at around 10% difference.

@@marcogoncalves1073 Yeah Kmcornell is talking out of his ass lol. I've done (almost) nothing but watch reviews and live streams today, and the BIGGEST hits are 12% in graphically intense programs/games (AAA titles, video editing and rendering software, etc.) Out of the gate, you can't ask for better emulation without asking for perfection. Shit seemingly slaps.

@@marcogoncalves1073 1/2 speed? 50% reduction? 10% reduction? Compared to what? How can you say something is some percentage slower, or faster, than something completely different? Are you comparing different CPUs running at the same clock speed with the same amount of memory? Different laptops running at disparate speeds with different memory? Are you comparing the Snapdragon X to mediocre low power middle tier CPUS from Intel and/or AMD and/or Apple in vastly different laptop machines?

Yeah, and it's a disaster for repairabilty as well. Emily explained on an old Techquickie that ARM isn't actually inherently more power-efficient than x86, but the gains are from the fact that they're almost always SoCs, with the RAM on the same package-if not die-as the CPU. Meaning: no upgrading without replacing the entire motherboard, which may also have the SSD soldered on as well.

try pi os or see what jeff geerling is doing

It’s because it wasn’t great that a developer wasn’t interested in tinkering with them to be able to install Linux like on the new Macs. but with the new x elite processor many will look for a way to install linux by hacking the bootloader

How is that a problem with Windows on ARM... That you cannot install Linux?

Old arm chips are nothing compared to this new chip. They're not comparable.

The packages will follow suit soon. 3 years and arm will be mainstream

That’s what I did with MacBooks (as a lower level dev). Based on leaks and other info I bought the last Intel MBP before they switched over to M* to make sure I would have the best computer I could while I waited for the transition. A few years later and I was able to switch without issue. Very glad I did it that way since I didn’t have to experience the other teething pains other devs did

I already sent a message to MinisForum to see if they have any plans. No response from them...

Not to forget Zhaoxin (Cyrix -> VIA -> Zhaoxin), and (if you want to get loose with the definition of processors, i.e. processors for industrial use or single-use devices like car chips, cell towers, and infrastructure stuff): Broadcom, Nordic, VIA, Bosch, Marvel, ASM Technologies, u-blox, NXP, Sierra, MosChip, and probably a lot more I can't think of right now :)

My TI graphics calculator uses a TI CPU and aside from that, I don't think TI plays a role outside of military and industry contracts. Same with IBM. I don't know too much of the others besides that they produce various kinds of chips, but none are relevant for consumer CPU needs. In the past there were some more x86 manufacturors that didn't flourish, Apple once had PowerPC and now does it's own thing but Apple is hardly consumer CPU manufacturor. Nvidia tries though.

There is also VIA (Cyrix -> VIA -> Zhaoxin). Plus plenty of others if you go away from x86 which are used in industrial, automotive, and infrastructure machines - such as Broadcom, Samsung, Marvel, ASM, Nordic, Bosch, ST-Micro, Nokia, Ericsson, u-blox, Sierra, MosChip and probably lots of others I can't think of :) (re-posted since it seems to have been deleted for some reason)

@@extremetiehe said on arm Not on Linux Read

@@Juanguar he said arch... Read :)

@@DanVibesTV yeah exactly If gaming on arch on arm doesn’t work he won’t switch Very specific scenario

@@Juanguar A scenario which has got the marketing department shaking in their boots.

Box86 and box64 already makes Windows games run on Android phones. Games will work just fine

AMD went fabless ages ago. Global Foundries is what used to be AMD's fab division.

@@Roxor128 True, but that started over 2 decades after the first ACORN designed ARM CPU was produced by ARM's silicon partner at the time, VLSI technologies. Design of the first ARM CPU started in 1983, the first production chips were made in 1985. AMD made the first steps to becoming 'fabless' in 2006, and actually splitting off global foundries happened in 2009, almost a quarter century after the first ARM CPUs came of the production line, and more than a quarter century after Acorn decided to only design a CPU, but have someone else do the manufacturing. So... relatively speaking, AMD going fabless is pretty recent, when compared to ARM.

They didn’t try and replace it, it was for an expansion to one of their home computers to make it as powerful as a workstation.

@@xanderplayz3446 That was their initial use case indeed. But it seems to me that was considered a stepping stone, an inbetween state, and not the desired 'end-state' which was achieved in 1987 with the introduction of the first archimedes.

I've been listening, trying to find good sources. Mostly the concensus I get it, as you said, this aspect of the cpu is mostly meaningless unless those instructions are actually called on for something. CPU engineers seem to be excited tho.

Lizards are pretty cool

snapdragons are actually flowers not lizard

And you could add Samsung, MediaTek, Nvidia and Google. Though I guess it's hard to draw the line at who is a "CPU maker" and who simply designs their own CPUs, but gets other companies to produce them... 🤔

@@dftfire Even then, if you exclude those who just design and don't produce, AMD would be firmly out of the running too, as they're fabless too...

Let's hope the CPUs don't cook themselves.

linux on arm is a lot better than windows on arm. and qualcomm is working to get drivers for linux.

Lenovo usually certifies their Thinkpads for Linux, so most likely it should support it.

Open source will always lag behind paid for, funded by, operating systems or OSs, simply because the feature sets have many many times more people and resources behind it to get things working and working currently. I am very happy we have an open source that allows us to homebrew and actually get tons of stuff done using linux and open source developers. Who have went on to write many programs with open source that they then patent those apps. Circle of life. What we - consumers- really need is competition, very strong, very hungry competition, beyond 3 players in the trillions. We need regulations that would allow NEW players to enter the market, to make a splash without top tier predators killing them off before they could ever come to market. We need regulations that gives more powers to consumers, as well as utility and choices for which software, apis, and os we would want to use. And we need regulations that would allow a non-trillion $ company to create features in OSs that would not get buried in legal red tape long before it could ever come to market. As huge as these corporations are, and as much power and money they control, you would think there would be many times more players in this field. More players to push innovation, lower prices, and compete, compete, compete.

@@SimonBauer7 Qualcomm shouldn't take too long with that since, they already have drivers for arm on the linux kernel (android)

OpenCl (GPU) being supported? Or does Qualcomm has Cuda, ROCm like for their gpu/ hexagon

They're probably still trying them out before actually making the review.

This isnt about desktop computers. Stop feeling so threatened

@@Meowmeowmewowo its not even just desktops, its specifically BYO gaming rigs which appears to be the only PC they'll recognise as useful....99% of computers in the wild do not fall into this category lol

i hope that qualcomm will actually make Desktop CPUs. that you know, are actually removable from the motherboard. Same with memory and disks (i've had recently found a laptop that has a soldered disk. a low end chromebook with 16gb of disk space)

@@Sezamn If you are doing ARM based tech you cannot have it with removable memory or disks (or even GPU) because it would severely slow it down (that's the main advantage of SOC). A removable motherboard, on the other hand, could be possible, and in that case you are essentially replacing the entire computer, however.

@@MichaelSidneyTimpson OH, in that case nvm, I'm sticking to my x86_64 pc, thank you very much.

@@Sezamn Actually Intel and AMD are starting to follow the SOC non-upgradable approach in some of their upcoming and future processors just to stay competitive, so we might not have a choice.

@@Sezamn better tell Intel since they've already started going the SOC direction too. You think I prefer not being able to upgrade my ram? I am not a cheerleader here.

X86 is such a small part of the cpu. It's not like machine code for basic tasks are more efficient. Read, store, etc. Mostly it's about keeping the clock speed within the efficiency envelope.

There's Qualcom Snapdragon & then if you're fine with low-power computers then there are many SoC vendors: Broadcom makes the entire Raspberry Pi ecosystem, Texas Instrument + Newark make the BeagleBone, BananaPi is made by Shenzhen SINOVOIP, Odroid which is made by Amlogic/Samsung/Intel... & about every major semi vendor has some kind of newer ARM chips in their program - & some can also be used for desktop & workstation applications.

@@FrankHarwald Problem is they are all low spec compared to the Apple ones, and PC enthusiasts, those who actually spend money and the companies will get most profits from, will not leave their PC master race x86 PCs for a worse experience and worse performance low spec SoCs.