Motobu Choki's cousin, Chotoku Kyan, was apparently a great fighter too. His karate still exists as Shorinji-ryu. There seem to be fewer videos about him though.

Funakoshi and Motobu's rivalry is one of my historically favourite feuds in Karate history. I respect both their philosophy and adopt it to my life as a martial artist. There is no fighter unless I have a strong spirit. I have no strong spirit unless I fight for it.

I remember watching Jesse Enkamp covering this & it made me think about & bring up the social dynamics at the time. Seeing how Motobu’s family was a branch of the former Ryukyuan royal family prior to the annexation which made the former King(Motobu’s cousin) a member of the Japanese House of Peers at the time. Which made me wonder about how that aspect played into their physical confrontation.

Know your goals. Thanks for sharing this. A year ago I restarted my training in Taekwondo, after being away for 30 years. I am now a Green Belt about to test for my Purple Belt. Going back into martial arts has been ideal for me as it has helped me with my mental health. Stress, anxiety, and depression had been taking a toll on me. Through martial arts I have focused on my inner peace and find balance in my life. 🥋🇰🇷

we did that kumite style at my most recent school and my current students also practice it. I can say my favorite part is how scale-able it is. Someone in their first month can get just as much out of it as a seasoned veteran. Just by tweaking the rules and tempo to the ability level. even making it turn by turn is helpful to create that familiarity with just being in that range with an opponent feeling how stuff moves. we do just hands - 3 step ( attack 3 times then defend 3 times, and continue without resetting unless necessary ) hands and feet 3 step hand and feet 3 step with kicking. 3 step with counters. half paced free sparring full paced

Great show my friend. Fitting we spoke the other day and this episode runs now. As you well know i used Karate to learn to walk again, ride a bike, enjoy a great life again with my son and now teach other people with disabilities. After 6 years and 9k hours i got my Black Belt, can i defend myself yes i can, can i fight no, not really. But i would not be alive today without all the hours of training my body, mind and spirit. I thank you again for all you have done to get my story out. Keep up the awesome work!!

My martial arts goals changed as I evolved as a person! At 6, I wanted to do cool stuff like break boards and flying side kicks. At 14, I wanted to be like the Shaolin monks and be badass while being able to heal others. At 16, I wanted to be a killing machine. I grew up in an unpleasant home environment and angry young men make great killers. At 21, I wanted to embrace both the combative and spiritual aspects of the martial arts. If one conquers one's passions(rage), he can become a truly better person! Here I am at 58, simply wanting to get back into one of the few things that brings out my best. But, first, knee replacement!

You are a wise man,it’s about context plain and simple.

it's pretty much the authentic okinawa version of daniel larusso vs johnny lawrence !!

This story sounds like the perfect plot to an anime.

I switched from kickboxing to Shotokan Karate to find a more balanced approach to martial arts. I will beat the hell out of anyone who try’s to take away my inner peace or pursuit of a better character.

I have read in a book a tale about Gichin Funakoshi that described a situation where he was attacked by eight thieves and defeated them.And some other tales about about him where he used his martial skills to defend himself. Maybe the gut was not good at fighting or competition but was good at self-defence(katas and bunkai that were taught by Funakoshi are for self defence).His son,Yoshitaka came with the idea of using Shotokan for competition and fighting.

Our style is based on Shotokan, so naturally I will always have respect for our founder, Funakoshi.

There should be a movie made about Motobu and Funakoshi!

Motobu was correct, Kata is vital, only as a means to show a student variety, use that variety and discard what is no good for you. At the end of the day it is about fighting. Motobu was not jealous of Funakoshi, it was the other way around. Funakoshi was also jealous in that no matter how much money he had, how he could speak Japanese, Motobu of the old ways, from even the Rotyal house was better than him at their traditional art. So Funakoshi had to despise himself and insult his betters because they couldn't speak a foreign language, and pretend he somehow has more knowledge, but he lacked the knowledge where it counted. It is like the Rhodes blacks, those that go to Princeton, Yale, Oxford, Harvard, Cambridge, and that type, they go and do stuff like physics, are so-called good blacks, but were it counts in discovering, lacking all they can say about blacks who discover is smear, they don't wear trousers, they were traditional clothes, Motobu had knowledge in what counted.

If every karate style goes back to full contact training with grappling, throws & ground wrestling etc then the issue is solved. Only then we will be doing justice to learning this fighting art.

Thank you for your work 👍🏽

Love this video. Would definitely be interested in more stories like it!

As always loved the video. You have a great way of coming up with interesting takes on long held discussions. I also love the art used in the video to fill in the gaps where there were not any photos. Any chance the watercolors or ones like them might find their way to your merchandise store?

If anyone wants to see something else REALLY interesting, look into Motobu Udundi. That was the family style which Choki Motobu broke from to found Motobu-ryu. When westerners think of Kenpo in Japan being of Chinese origin, i think Motobu Udundi is similar to what they imagine.

I am clearly on Choki Motobu's side. But I know that without the Funakoshi side Karate would perhaps never have grown so big and we might not even know what it is... I really struggle to be grateful for the development that things took. The history of Shotokan as it is, is a very sad one to me.

This is a great perspective. Very pragmatic. Most people won't use it in a fight anyway, to be honest. My personal opinion matches Motobu's. Martial arts are not martial arts if they can't be used for martial purposes. There should be another name for the kata-only arts (aikido, daito-ryu, non-martial tai chi, etc.). But practicing them is not wrong and it's fun.

Great video! Love these history of karate videos. Would love to see a video on the meibukan history of goju ryu 👍

"BLEEP that noise".... I love this channel!

Well again, awesome scholarship and presentation. I will buy all Forefathers in the near future! Thank you Sensi!!

Balance… without this, you are a danger to yourself and others. Character, physical fitness, and conditioning are just as important as technique, distance, proper timing, and strategy. Without the weapon, there’s no real target. With the wrong person holding the weapon, everyone’s the target.

I love your diplomatic response. I completely agree as well, there are different pulls for different people different areas for application. I am glad that they were both able to benefit from their experiences in the MA and I also think that robby kean had a good point in cobra kai about what everyone thinks about their martial arts. However while Mr Parker shares that sentiment that there are no pure styles of karate... but that last part makes me wonder pure knuckles... pure flesh, who do you think he would have sided with in this fued?

I'd love to see a collaboration between you, and Kuro Obi World.

EXCELLENT VIDEO! 🙂 And yes, it matters, because history is the study of human behavioral constants. You're absolutely right, we still have the debate over both methods, and honestly, probably always will...

To everyone his own. I agree. I do want 'some' effectiveness. So it's combat sports like Boxing, Muay Thai, BJJ for me. I tried my hand at Wing Chun .. unfortunately because of a lack of sparring did not enjoy it as much...but I do see value in it for people who don't have my goals. After all this is not the feudal ages! A martial art is a relic of a bygone era and most of us today will never be in a real fight ever.

Why haven’t they made a movie about funakoshi bringing karate to Japan and then to the rest of the world? I would love to see a movie about this. We should start some kind of grass roots campaign to help fund this movie.

Agreed.... You must define your goals. Also you need to reinterpret and/or redefine them as needed. Anyway "Martial Arts" need to be a competent mix of fighting skills and life skills. All our goals are different but a martial art needs to have these two elements in a balanced format.

I heard Motobu Choki is related to James Mitosi so I understand why Motobu Choki is like the way he was however you have a point

Great video! :) In my opinion, both were right ;)

I agree soon soon, I believe in the shin ken gata. Real world applications in combat.. however, Contin, you learn proper stance, balance, and form, and you learn the applications. They both have their place.

Very good Dan. On personal perspective i'd like to add we may change our opinion over time. When i was around 20 i was full Motobu, now, beggining my 30s and teaching others i feel much more Funakoshi oriented. That means i do not consider means of DESTROYING ENTIRELY MY OPONENTS important? Hell no! However, firepower is nothing without someone wise aiming. So yes, we should build good things for life using martial arts, we become responsible for our earned power but there must be some actual...you know... power.

There’s always been a certain rivalry between Okinawan and mainland Japanese styles due to different points of views, applications and training methods

Are we sure this isn't just the story of Akuma and Goken from Streetfighter?

I think for many of us (not all -- in case someone interjects) we like to believe that we are getting something deeper from the martial arts that we study -- ala Mr Miyagi -- be it health, fitness, sport, self confidence, spiritual fulfillment, "balance" etc. However, for many of us (again, not all) we really do hope that what we study actually works if our life depended on it. Martial arts can benefit people in different ways physically and mentally but to be honest with myself I do the martial arts that I do for self-defence as the highest priority; the rest (fitness, health,...) is secondary. There are far more efficient and less high-impact injury activities than martial arts if we are going to deny that we have a fascination to be a lethal weapon. Perhaps it is some surrogate or extension of every creature's instinctive will to survive for its life as a reason that I do martial art if I am to "honestly express myself". I'm sure almost everyone who does martial arts - even those who deny they practice martial arts for combatives - has at some point had a friend or family member ask what they would do in the event of a mugging at which point that person will invariably get up and demonstrate some move: "OK, grab my wrist. No not in an ice pick grip, in a regular handshake grip. OK, relax. Here we go!". kzfaq.info/get/bejne/o811epx32dS2nn0.html BTW, at 05:17. Charlie Sheen does karate? ;-)

So I didn't think your response was a cop out. I think it was very nuanced

Everyone knows the most effective self defense technique is just use the Kamehameha.

A Martial Art teaches a philosophy through fighting. A Combat System teaches how to kill your enemy on the battlefield.

Wise Word osu!

Taika Seiyu Oyata had a few friends and training partners in Okinawa, however a lot of Okinawans didn't like him. Problem was Taika could back up his skill. Real shame his organization splintered. Always happens after a Masters death. Thank you for the video!

Funakoshi introduced the japanese to the 'technique' of Chambering, something which did not exist in Shuri Te. A way to develop more power in their blow by first pulling their arm away from the incoming strike. Because, ... WHAM!!, and they're down.

I must point out the difference between Karatedo and karatejutsu. Like judo vs jujutsu. One is the gentle way. The other is the application of aggressive banking.

So this was basically real life Miyagi vs Cobra Kai. Just all Japanese no Americans.

This needs a movie on its own,could be a 3 part movie one of each growing up and getting stronger then the 3rd movie there grudge

Motobu and Gichin didn´t hate each other, not at all. Funakoshi actually mourned greatly after Motobu´s passing.

Motobu Ryu was effective

Karate should be a tool for life, not the other way around

All martial arts need to be for fighting and there has to be respect too.

I believe both i love to have balance ying and yang

I don't believe the picture supposedly of Anko Itosu is really of him. Joe Swifts book about him states that the person in the picture is of another gentleman, but I don't remember the name. I do believe it is a master of Jigen-ryu.

Who made the paintings?

I only know the Okinawa karate style Goyu Ryu it looks a lot like Motobu Ryu very effective it says you can only be effective in a fight if you know youre basic moves through kata.

When it comes to the -do vs -jutsu debate there really shouldn’t be a debate. 1. -do styles aren’t martial therefore not martial arts. If someone doesn’t want to teach people to fight and people aren’t interested in learning to fight that’s fine, so what makes you happy. The whole issue that causes any real debate on the subject is when people are teaching ‘a way of life’ or basically trying to be life coaches, but then advertise self defense in some way. 2. -jutsu practitioners build character and all that other stuff the same way people who don’t do martial arts or ‘martial’ arts do it. By living life, and being taught values from their families, friends, and communities. Plenty of -do instructors and practitioners who are flat out bad people with no moral character.

An interesting dynamic you briefly touched on but some seem likely played a big role in the rivalry was the Okinawan vs Japanese dynamic - in the sense that some Okinawan karateka thought of Funakoshi as a 'traitor.' Japan had invaded, colonized, and occupied Okinawa. Funakoshi, an Okinawan, adopting all things Japanese (including 'Japanizing' his hogen name to Funakoshi) rubbed some the wrong way. That and the 'outsized' credit he received for bringing/popularizing karate in Japan when other Okinawans had and were doing the same. Motobu's fealty to being Okinawan and Funakoshi's embrace of being Japanese probably influenced how they viewed each other.

Both Grand masters are great in there respects. Kata I believe gives you understanding of what happened in a fight, from start to finish, and some say that if you do it just right, you can do kata in a fight. Hmmm, true I have only seen it once before, but that is a one in a million chance that it will happen like such a way in the street. People don’t move like you want. So there for kata is at best a template on how to move in a fight. When the two Grandmasters clashed with there respectively strong karate styles. Witch will lead them to there out comes in that fight. I have the utmost respect for them and there marshal art styles and for you sir. And remember kata is good in tournaments and to show how to fight an a fight.

I honestly agree with both of them. A martial art is the art of killing a man. But I don't think looking for such conflicts either. As Rurouni Kenshin so aptly put it in the manga/anime, "the art of sword is the art of murder. No amount of fantasy can change this. But I prefer Mrs Kourus fantasy. " We should never eliminate the purpose of martial arts being to rip someone apart if needed, BUT we should understand the difference of an enemy from an uke.

If this indeed happened, both Motobu and Funakoshi were disrespectful of each other. Motobu ashamed Funakoshi in a challenging display going into his dojo and harassing him to a "controlled" fight. Funakoshi, on the other hand, felt humiliated and bashed Motobu's reputation afterwards. None was right, but Motobu started it. Now think about this... if Funakoshi indeed bashed Motobu's reputation after this incident, wouldn't Motobu return to his dojo and give him a final humiliation as revenge? (he already did it in the past and ignorant accusations are serious). In the long run, Motobu became almost forgotten while Funakoshi's style (no name at the time, but later on it was named Shotokan) became international. But thing about this... the old masters teached several Katas, Motobu practiced just one (Naihanchi) - isn't that itself against the Karate principles? Funakoshi was against competition (not against self-defense), he defended that Karate should be practiced for self-defense, however, Shotokan became very competition oriented afterwards (not his fault though). In the end, we ended up with a washed down Karate style from old okinawan days, made to fit the "japanese" way of thinking, in line with sports like Judo or Kendo, far away from the self-defense Karate from old days (in part, Funakoshi's fault). Who wins? No one and everyone. Karate is now worldwide spread (positive part), Shotokan one of the most known styles, but in many schools, sport-combat oriented and not self-defense oriented. It is up to each student and each master to practice the old way (budo way of self-defense) or the sports way. I like Motobu's way of thinking that Karate should be practical and work in self-defense, but also the traditional way of the old budo, the Katas, that are in themselves, self-defense moves (and what defines the different styles), if you learn to think out of the box and actually find the self-defense movies within them.

It's very difficult to say if this really happened or not. A number of the elements to the story are questionable. I agree though, it is relevant today. The problem is that people perceive karate to be about fighting, and it very much isn't.

Personally I think it is sad when masters of different styles are antagonistic with one another. The rivalry between styles can be healthy but all too often the rivalry becomes all consuming and the animosity that grows to poisonous levels. All martial arts have something to teach , there is an art to suit everyone but no one art fits all. Vivre La Difference - as the French say. We are all brothers and sisters under the same Sun.

Hi sensei, very interesting, however there is no record of that supposed fight between master Funakoshi and Choki Motobu, apparently that idea was distributed by Choki Motobu, since if it had really happened it would be logical for Funakoshi's students to abandon training, but far from it, Shotokan karate grew enormously. On the contrary, Choki Motobu was only a troublemaker among drunks, that is, he liked to offend drunk people, which is why Master like Anko did not want to teach karate to Choki Motobu, since he was more of a troublemaker. That's why he only learned a single kata.

I studied this form at military base in 1966 Fort Bliss, El Paso, Tx. I was a teen interested in appropriate defense. I appreciated a sense of personal control/discipline!

I am on neither side, Flower in Kempo aka the Dan of this channel. Simply put, "the only fight is your artform." That is why I am not on either side independent of those disciplines as war in tradition in land of rising sun. I bear the brunt of the entire rising moon as a country that you walk upon to this day.

I trained in judo akido kendo jodo karate and taekwondo it all works just practice practice no sloppy habit ya thank me in the field

Actually Motobu Choku POV about Ti (karate true name) its not about fighting The dispute is about, how Gichin as Okinawan Ti master, change many things about Ti itself, so Ti lost it's soul, Funakoshi teach his own son the true Ti, but teach his student modification Ti, the modification Ti it's bad for health in the long term in Motobu opinion.. even breathing technique in kata is catastrate. So Motobu is always senile about Gichin teaching. He even said gichin Ti teaching cannot be implemented in fighting (in motobu opinion) so he comes to gichin dojo few times, just to beat him black & blue

Motobu. Funakoshi proved he was a rich snob, and not a fighter

Who was right? No one. And, both.

Contrary to your "fictional depictions" Funakoshi and Motobu were pretty unlikely to have worn karategi when they were children or adolescents, since the judogi (on which the karategi is based) wasn't invented until early in the 20th Century, when both men were in their 30s. The karategi was developed in the 1920s (adoption of a standard training uniform based on the judogi was a condition for recognition of karatedo as a "real" budo by the Dai Nippon Butokukai). It wasn't fully adopted on Okinawa until the 1930s.

Motobu will always be my favorite because he was a real fighter and knew how to apply his karate. 👊🥋 Quick edit: Is grandmaster Hwang Kee featured on one of these shirts? ✊🥋🇰🇷

Motobu sensei!

Motobu had the right idea,,, if your skills aren't useable in defense don't waste your time learning crap.

I’m yet to find an old Karate “Master” who did not start as a weakly child who became strong after training in the Martial Arts.

Still wish they had time to prepare for an actual fight.

It's my opinion that the arts are supposed to encompass mental, physical and spiritual and a major part of the physical is sparring. Otherwise, where is the "martial" in your martial art?

If you teach Martial Arts, your students should be able to defend themselves. It’s ok to do for other reasons but it should be labeled as such. Therapy karate, cardio karate, meditative karate or whatever. You don’t want people to have a false confidence that they can fight. And that does happen.

with all that similarity in styles, What to hate each other about ?. nothing unique in them. one style of karate reverse punch starts from the hip and the fist executed facing horizontal, while other styles, again from the hip and execute a vertical punch with the fist thumb facing upward. nothing unique. want to know what's unique ? and also wears a karate uniform and a black belt, shorinji kempo. that's a unique style.

If you want to improve your health, you do yoga, aerobics jogging, etc. 😂😂😂

Motubu > funakoshi. Funakoshi was delusional.

When people talk about the Karate man fighting a "Western Boxer", it always makes me cringe a bit, why was it such an achievement ? One of the greatest Karate men ever, beats a completely unknown boxer. Were they that afraid of Boxing that a defeat by a karate man had to be celebrated in the newspapers?

UFC filtered out all of the BS.

Muneomi Sawayama's Nippon Kempo (since 1932) is much more pragmatic than the teachings of Gichin Funakoshi and Motobu Choki. Look at the curriculum and bouts in Nippon Kempo to see why.

This is why your martial art is bullshit - Master Ken of Ameri-Do-Te

Funakoshi had beef because Motobu beat the fck out of him in front of his students 😂 Motobu and didn't have the brain cells to conaider Funakoshi as a rival 😂