*If Monster Reborn came to 3 in the TCG, do you think it would be played significantly more? What about Change of Heart? Or would they still be seen as just not worth it?* 🤔

I believe the word you are looking for is "outclassed"

More evidence of why errata for banned cards is stupid.

Konami's cheat sheet for archetypes is basically just picking staple cards, then adding an archetype restriction and additional effect. Decks being pushed towards one or two archetypes means that the in-archetype staples are going to be better. Whether it's a combo line or resource loop, there isn't really a reason to run the less flexible, generic cards.

Let's face it if your spell can't ruin your opponents board, search your combo starter, and make you breakfast it ain't worth using 😉

Raigeki went to 3 and you don't see it running around

Yeah, Monster Reborn is more just an extender for a deck without a better option at this point. The only deck I have it in right now is Black Rose Dragon. While it has it's own Reborn, I always found myself missing one piece. Pretty sure I wouldn't use more than one though.

Dark hole is still solid for iblee lock or getting monsters off your field

Monster Reborn and Change of Heart are amazing for my Charmer deck because it almost guarantees I have a monster with an opponent's attribute. But I don't really play meta-ish.

I play a deck of 40 kuribohs and won my locals. No staples, just skill.

Monster Reborn used to be a great combo extender circa 2014, 2015. The state of the game is just so toxic now that such an effect simply isnt strong enough. It doesnt play from the graveyard for a second effect, it cant be tutored easily, it can be negated. You need to staple at least one of those, if not all three, onto a card these days to make it "good".

I think HOPT kinda kills Monster Reborn since you cant reuse the effect. Personally I think it could go to three without issue. I wonder if it can boost those lack of HOPT from old cards that searches on summon, or just crazy floodgates like Kristya, Spell Canceller, etc.

I run a few old spells competitively & they work you just can’t count on specific cards. I’ll play a throwaway spell first to see if they can negate & then play change of heart or monster reborn. My deck consists of quite a few old cards & I’ve beaten some crazy meta decks with them. Of course, that doesn’t always work but lots of times current players don’t account for cards like prohibition or mirror force. If they run out of negates they’re screwed.

Something I'd like to see is Pot of Greed off the banlist. I know China or Japan did an unlimited everything tournament and Pot of Greed actually saw nearly no play. Graceful Charity did because it let you set up the grave and draw, but most decks will rather just search out the specific card they need now. I think it would see play in rogue decks, but would be interesting to see.

Crazy that three Monster Reborn would not exactly shape up to something crazy at this point. Would it see play, probably, but it wouldn't be part of some insane 9 negate pile combo. I think it would potentially make some decks that folks haven't thought about for a while come back. Those old rogue/tier 2 strategies.

I think that every player should be a homie and play the worst cards possible. For the love of the game 🔥🔥

Rather than 'versatility' I would say that the issue with these older stables is 'consistency'. Spells that can be searched and/or played in multiple copies are just far more consistent than a one-of good card that you need to draw into. The same goes with draw cards as you mentioned at the end. Getting a single card that you have more control over what you get is just more consistent than getting whatever 2 cards happen to be on top of your deck. Card advantage was king back in the day when searching effects were few and far between. Decks were far more reliant on drawing those powerful one-of's, which made raw draw power so valuable. But in modern Yugioh, where a single card can represent a full combo giving you access to your entire deck, card advantage just isn't nearly as important as it once was. There are exceptions such as hand traps or other specific counterplay cards which generally aren't part of your combo. So while card advantage is still good, it's just not as good as it used to be.

So the question I have is why is Monster Reborn still limited?

I firmly believe a huge reason as to why returning original players are put off from the game is that their old cards are worthless in any competitive sense, especially cards like Monster Reborn or Change of Heart. It's jarring to tell someone that their attrition-based staples are effectively pointless, when compared to decks who can easily play 10+ cards per turn. A lot of players nowadays will argue, "Well that's just what the game is, you have to adapt", when Yu-Gi-Oh is definitely the worst at gatekeeping players purely based off the game's mechanics, when compared to other older games like Magic and Pokemon. Magic and Pokemon still plays closely to what they were 10 years ago & 20 years ago, unlike Yu-Gi-Oh. In fact, the changes are so aggressive in Yu-Gi-Oh, that they don't come across as a natural evolution in game design, rather it reeks of a game that raises the bar of playability just to sell more packs.

Returning to Yugioh in 2020 first thought was wow no one plays monster reborn, MST and mirror force anymore?!!

I have been thinking since they made Dark Hole Dragon that can search Dark Hole. Will they make like equivalents for Raigeki, Monster Reborn and Change of Heart.

Especially in the current format stealing a single monster actually seems pretty strong since the boards to break aren't all that big, usually.

Three monster reborns would be great for link climbing

Oh boy, you're not ready for the Pot of Greed video essay...

I thought monster reborn was at 3 😂 I don’t think you’d play it even at 3. Decks these days are mostly either cards that get you going, cards that interrupt your opponent or cards you are forced to play for the deck to function (bricks). Monster reborn is just an unsearchable extender, why play it when you can play an extender that you can search when you need it?

I always find Reasoning a fun game with my opponent to see how many cards until they get something hat fits either condition. It has sometimes milled alot of good, scary cards from their deck.

It always depends on the deck. Even a Lightning Strike can be better than a Raigeki if your engine needs cards in the graveyard to start a combo. Generally speaking, a lot of the old cards are good when going second or mid game but are bricks when going first. A Change of Heart does nothing for the opening player. He effectivelly starts with 4 cards in hand and has to hope he survives to see the next turn to actually use it. Enemy Controller at least is a quick play spell that can be set to interupt in versatile ways.

I personally run two Raigeki in my going second mannadium build. I find it’s really good at either baiting a response or putting the opponent in a less desirable position

The problem is because handtraps are way too important now. You’d rather rely on your archetype to do everything, because archetypes are too broken now. Any out of archetype card, you want them to be interruption.

I think the simple answer on Monster Reborn is that the it has three main problems A) targeting makes it very vulnerable to various graveyard hate effects. B) Most of the times anything you summon back is something you've already used ergo the HOPT one the card you brought back means its often just a body, there are quite a number of cards you can run if all you need is free body, and arguably better cards to run like Kashtira Fenrir where you get a free body and the card replaces itself and it has a good effect on the field, and it has nice stats. In theory you could grab your opponents card and make use of it but so many are tied to their archetypal synergies like oh cool you stole a Spright Red what does it do? oh nothing because you don't have a level 2. Oh you stole a Borrelend Dragon that's cool a towers and negate, oh right the negate needs tracer. Oh cool you stole their Kaleido Heart and got a spin, what's that they destroyed it with Baronne and now its coming back to their side of the field oh dear. That said I think Reborn is a card that likes really close to playable even these days archetypal versions are common, charmers are common(especially Dharc), Cross Sheep is basically a staple in fusion decks just for its reborn effect. I don't think the searchability is really that much of an issue, cards like Foolish Burial/Goods see plenty of play at 1 if the effect is powerful enough(generic tutoring to grave certainly is) people will play it. Reborn is just a bit below the curve so it just doesn't quite make the cut in almost every deck at this point.

Also I understand but those cards that "power creep" kinda cost a arm and a leg to get. Like thats easily at the very least $150 for playsets.

I think change of heart is a lot better because of Thrust and in this meta its pretty good against Unchained

The biggest part is that they are not searchable. If your opponent opens with over 60% rate of success, and your Monster Reborn is (somehow) the deck's only counter, you are losing consistently to the deck that can open 60%. Master Duel is a game about probability, you are very unlikely to see a non-searchable card in your deck and use it successfully, versus a reborn effect that is consistently searchable and part of a basic combo like Mirrorjade banish sets Branded In Red.

Monster reborn: Not once per turn but it IS limited so you can only have one anyway..Also there are a handful of extra deck monsters that say “if this is synchro/fusion/XYZ summoned” so if you special summon it from the grave then it loses it’s one effect and is usually not worth it. You also lose your xyz material so doesn’t really help with that either.

I find reasoning to work fairly in my lightsworn deck. The deck itself isn't so competitive but it helps with throwing some of those cards away to activate their effects.

Honestly the main reason Monster Reborn isn't played besides a lot of recent decks just not really needing it is because competitive decks generally don't like saccy one-ofs unless they're super broken like red reboot. If monster reborn was at three, I think it would be played more especially as a going second card.

Then there's the time i monster reborn my opponents planet pathfinder to tribute for runick fountain. (After he Ash'd my Hugin) One of my favorite plays

another thing too, why is Konami still printing card effects that "target" when everything else they make cannot be targeted???

Who remembers when Monster Reborn was a Magic card

Nothing is funnier then outing my opponent Barron and then Monster reborning it 😂

All I heard is that Pot of Greed can probably come off the banlist and nothing would change.

I use monster reborn in my synchron deck to bring back non tuner monsters to synchro summon more and I also use it to bring out infernity archfiend in my infernity deck. "This creepy little punk" is a hopt but atleast it recycles itself.

Can't wait for the monster reborn retrain of discard one and target two mons, one In Your grave and one in you opp graves.

Change of Heart is currently a staple in Farfa's Last Card Standing series.

Its not that they're bad. You just have to use them correctly. But due to the creation of cards that can easily counter them or find a loop around them they became a liability over time.

Aka, they're mediocre. If anything, the fact that something like change if heart or monster reborn can be considered mediocre is a bit disappointing. Those are some very powerful effects, yet the game has xhanged so much that they're no longer relevant

Archetype specific cards are the way to go in the current format where everything needs to be searched although there are exceptions like handtraps or counter traps but that's a different story for another day.

You'd think the self-milling from Reasoning would be what draw people to play it.

Reborn to 3 would do absolutely nothing, being an unsearchable card kills most of Reborn's viability IMO. CoH to 3 might cause the card to see more presence in the side deck.

I still play reasoning in any graveyard heavy deck. Free mills and a free special summon? If you have a lot of spells or monsters that can't be normal summoned in the main deck it's often better than grass. Great for Lunalight.

These kind of cards are very simplistic: very straightfoward effects, very easy to play. Top decks don't need those; as you say, they're not bad, they're objectively good, but those decks have something better specifically suited for their gameplan. These cards are generic; they are based around a core mechanic of the game, and try to help the most amount of decks possible by being a "neutral" effect. However, even cards like Pot of Greed don't do squat for Tearlaments, for example. I think if these cards were to come back at 3, they'd only see play in non-meta decks; casual play with friends, rogue decks that just need a little push, but lack X tool in-archetype, etc. Kinda like Morganite; that card is very good for things like Gadget, or Floowandereeze, or something, but don't see play outside of that environment.

I play Monster Reborn if a card I have is in my graveyard that I need or bring back an opponents boss monster just to stay alive.

Always tech in a monster reborn. Never gonna know when you’ll need a heart of the cards moment!😂

Would love to hear you guys talk about the Grand Archive TCG and hear your opinion on it. Love the vids keep it up!❤

Change of heart is really good for mirror matches in tier 0 formats.

Over on Master Duel I started with Monster Reborn😅 Lava Golem.. Tributed both the monsters... One of them was Time Thief Redo 😅 Easy Reborn target...

It's just that, with today's level of play, I just feel like certain spells don't either fit or just prove to be useless filler.

Reasoning and Monster Gate are still good in decks with many Nomis that want cards in grave, such as Infernoid or Megalith.

Hot take, pot of greed has been powercrept. Triple tactics talent is just better (gives you more options than just draw 2, and the only downside side is your opponent needs to activate a monster effect... which every deck always without fail does.), as well as prosperity is also arguably better seeing as you get to pick the specific card you need. Either unban pot of greed or ban TTT and prosperity.

Reborn is good but it's more about combo consistency since there is so much disruption to deal with.

Another reason why yhe okd school power spells are iutclassrd these day is because most in-archetype cards also have bonus "banish this card from the graveyard-" tyoe effects.

Monster Reborn has an archetype(s): the Egyptian Gods.

Allure of darkness sees a lot of play in modern black wing decks from what I’ve run into in the past week on Master Duel

They should just unban pot of greed and limit it to one 😆 😆

I feel like a good comparison is the fact that Snake Rain has always been at 3 and has never been even remotely a problem even as Reptiles have gotten actual ways to get value from it, and the second biggest reason it's "just pretty good", after reptiles still being one of the weakest types, is due to Snake Rain being unsearchable in said decks and thus still inherently less reliable even at 3 than a searchable card that can be played anywhere 1-3. Even at 3 there's still a random chance element to drawing them so it's less favourable than lines that can pinpoint search the next piece in the combo. I do like the question around Lightning Storm vs Raigeki & Harpy's Feather Duster, or Raigeki vs Dark Hole. Those are nice choices, they're similar enough to have the overlap but distinct enough that both have situations where one is preferable to the other. 3 LS is consistent but more conditional due to it's restriction, while pairing Raigeki Duster means there's no conditions to using the cards, but the effects to hit monsters or backrow are on different cards and you won't always draw the right one. Even if LS sees more play I think it's fine, there'll be times where it'd be better to run the others, and the choice between them adds to the deckbuilding of the game imo.

Monster reborn - even if it was at 2 or 3, you still would play your themed monster reborn and not add copies of monster reborn to the deck, because this raises nothing but your brick potential. at least, that is what i think about it.

not really simply from the fact that Monster Reborn is often only good after Turn 3 (if even that), and modern YGO is really about focusing on Turn 1 and 2 (so you have 25ish engine and 15ish going second cards, may it be hand traps or board breakers). Extending with MR is unreliable and often also suboptimal due to HOPT on most modern cards as well. Change of Heart is different because you can argue it is a Turn 2 card so it definitely has applications as a boardbreakers depending on the meta.

Crafted change of heart in MD… i don’t know why, maybe the nostalgia factor played in. But yes its not as good as when we were kids. 😢

If it wasn't for Cydra having so many arch type searchers, I would easily run reborn over the cydra version of it.

Yugioh in a competitive format is alot less forgiving since u need to play cards that guarantee a win and not "grind" or brick it was alot easier before because most archetype didn't have searchers to find the out

I believe the statement for the title should be "These Yu-Gi-Oh spells aren't bad, they just aren't excellent anymore" Any deck with an in-archetype Reborn will run 3, but if it's a deck that relies on recurring cards from graveyard, they'll run Reborn as a 4th just as a consistency booster, etc... They're generally good cards, but not generally excellent only situationally excellent, and are only run in decks where they are excellent. That isn't a bad thing! The initial reason the Forbidden/Limited list came into being is that decks were 50%-75% all the same staple cards with a varying small engine. If those older cards can come off the F/L list because they aren't going to be plated in every single deck, YAY!

Can we finally agree that pot.of greed can come back at 1, hell upstart to 3 and chicken game to 1. Lets MAKE drawing great again! Lol

I think a fast game makes cards need to be either usable in 1 turn or so string even if you don't use it your first you can use it your second. Until we have a slower game where it can average more than 2-3 turns I don't see spells like these being as broken. Apparently speed one just isn't fast enough

I'm not a bad player, I'm just not a good one.

Am I the only one that wants a closeup of the cute sonics in the background?

Monster reborn could be at 3 and the few decks like d link that in theory would want it just already have either pisty and dis pater from the ED. RedMD and regained are gotten off the normal combo lines but also do more without it being dead weight if you draw it over something else that does more in the grind game. Change of heart though is just if talents was real I could see it being played as people play econ to steal stuff sometimes but because talents exists and has COH on it but also confi and pog stapled onto it and is more reactive to situations it just has zero uses now

Monster reborn can come in clutch a few moments

Monster reborn iAd nap Lia get needed how oat used to be needed because duels don’t last enough turns to justify running it in top tier decks since those duels usually end first or second turn at most third

A lot of these cards are not played because they’re competing with deck space. Decks are compact and engines are insanely strong these days. If the card doesn’t do something the deck specifically needs ALL THE TIME it’s not worth playing. Edit: you basically said this right after I typed it. I will say, there are super niche scenarios where the cards are still playable because they are strong. Monster reborn can be really good in marincess as an extender/a way to recover from nib. Even then, it’s usually going to be a rogue/pet deck that someone is intimately familiar with and using it for a specific purpose.

Imagine thrusting into monster reborn 😅

If someone would have told me 20 years ago that monster reborn would one day be "not good" I would have laughed in thier face, yet here we are 😭 my how the game has evolved

This is why I think pot of greed can come off the banlist.

This is why I quit. Just not worth the time investment/money investment. When I play with friends, we always cut off at Exceeds. We don't go any farther than that and we don't use the new Link cards, but we have a ton of fun still.

Problem is Yugioh doesn't feel like yugioh anymore. Need a new master rule like how links came and slowed the game down.

1 Soul charge > 3 Monster Reborns

monster reborn is only as useful as the monster you are summoning

Monster reborn would be good in a format where there are few decks. So you can get your starter by stealing the one of your opposent ^^

well staples are always meta dependent. reborn can either be too good or useless no inbetween.

Harpies feather duster, heavy storm, giant trunade, change of heart should all come to 3. dont care what anyone says

Nice

This may be a super hot take, but I genueinly believe Yugioh is becoming more "Kusoge" as more cards are introduced and powercreep gets worse. If you don't know what "Kusoge" mean, it basically translates to "Shitty Game. In the fighting game community it usually refers to a game that is bad but people still enjoy it and play competitively, knowing its a bad game. Konami keeps releasing cards that overpower older strategies by such a huge margin. And you know how they fix it? By making new stargates that are even more powerful then the last. Strategies and cards that were printed just a few years ago are mostly unplayable if you compare them to the cards now. Powercreep Its getting to the point where some old cards that were limited or banned, may not even be played even if they were given their original pre-eratta text and put at 3. Unfortunately it seems like powercreep will just get worse and older cards and strategies will Just become more obsolete as time goes on. It feels bad to see cards like Monster Reborn get powercrept.

Monster reb, Heart and all of those cards The reason is those cards are all bad cards for going 1st, that only do one thing that is no longer necessary That's the reason why last will can't Come back, if last will came back it would be in every deck because in modern YuGiOh it would be broken

Yea! Monster reborn, 3 copies! Might change the dynamic

this is like a MTG player telling people that power 9 are underpower now...

SONIC.!!!!!! 🥰🥰🥰 bro a W

wow. how long until pot of greed isn't considered a good card. good lord.

I would play 3 monster reborns

@konami pot of greed to 1 plz

You mean Magic cards? Old school 😅

I think lightning storm is over rated. It's a dead card unless it's turn 2