This Is Why the U.S. Military Uses 5.56mm Ammo Instead of 7.62mm

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US Defense News

US Defense News

2 жыл бұрын

There has been much debate of the allegedly poor performance of the bullet on target in regard to stopping power, lethality, and range. Some of this criticism has been used to advocate an intermediate-sized cartridge between the 5.56 and 7.62 NATO sizes while criticisms of poor barrier penetration, and accuracy have been used to support the M855A1 EPR round. Arguably, the criticisms about range, accuracy and lethality are related to the change in barrel length and twist between the M16 and M4.
Hit probability refers to the ability of a soldier to concentrate on firing in spite of their weapon's recoil and noise, which is noticeably different between the two cartridges. The 7.62 NATO has twice the impact energy of the 5.56 NATO, preferable if a target is protected by higher level armor, especially at "medium" range. approximately. A 5.56 NATO round fired from a 20 in (510 mm) barrel has a flatter trajectory than a 7.62 NATO round fired from a barrel of equal length, while the 5.56 NATO fired from a 14.5 in (370 mm) barrel has the same trajectory as the 7.62 NATO from a 20 in barrel, as well as the same time of flight. A 7.62 NATO round reaches 50 percent of its velocity within 80 mm (3.1 in) of the barrel when fired, so decreasing the barrel length for close quarters combat results in increased muzzle pressure and greater noise and muzzle flash.
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Пікірлер: 1 600
@MrYabber
@MrYabber 2 жыл бұрын
I’ll save you 8 minutes: Because you can carry more ammo.
@Nikowalker007
@Nikowalker007 2 жыл бұрын
You can carry more and the rifle is generally lighter and more precise when it fires 5.56s in bursts compare to heavy 7.62s. Plus most of the modern combat actions take place in the urban environment where the long range ballistics of 7.62s can't be utilized, hence 7.62s is used only in machine guns and some semi automatic designated marksman rifles
@MrYabber
@MrYabber 2 жыл бұрын
@@Nikowalker007 Exactly
@maxmueller7713
@maxmueller7713 2 жыл бұрын
You sir are an angel
@SpaceRanger187
@SpaceRanger187 2 жыл бұрын
It's cuz of the recoil not because how much u can carry
@MrYabber
@MrYabber 2 жыл бұрын
@@SpaceRanger187 No it isn’t because of recoil.. 😂😂😂 Navy SEALs use AKs for spec ops missions since 7.62 has more stopping power and AKs almost never jam… The marines and army use 5.56 because it is lighter and can carry more ammo since they are on long missions, whereas navy seals are on short missions, so they prefer the stopping power and a gun that won’t jam (since they go into water a lot), over carrying more ammo.
@KoshN
@KoshN 2 жыл бұрын
Reasons: You can carry more ammo with you (takes up less room and weighs less) and it's more economical.
@mgrant011
@mgrant011 2 жыл бұрын
Why is call the nato round??
@painkiller4188
@painkiller4188 2 жыл бұрын
Because in the NATO we try to have a maximum of compability between our armys. So it became one of the NATO rounds.
@rogerdavies6226
@rogerdavies6226 2 жыл бұрын
Why do I always hear double tap? Which cuts your loadout in half
@richardkluesek4301
@richardkluesek4301 2 жыл бұрын
And not only an individual war fighter humping a combat load but a quartermaster filling a shipping container with cargo gets more cartridges inside the same space.
@KoshN
@KoshN 2 жыл бұрын
@@painkiller4188 It only makes sense to do that.
@DeniatitadenCompostela
@DeniatitadenCompostela 2 жыл бұрын
Never met a person hit by a 5.56 mm or 7.62 mm complained the round is not powerful enough.
@dbrady1966
@dbrady1966 2 жыл бұрын
Best comment!!
@williamkillingsworth2619
@williamkillingsworth2619 2 жыл бұрын
I have met many shooting the .223 in combat claiming its not enough. I didn't go but many of my friends fought in Iraq and Afghanistan. In particular a marine buddy of mine, who's life depended on it. Some times in a fire fight people take cover behind block walls and such(iraq). .223 isn't enough to punch holes through the cover, 7.62 carries more energy at 400 yards than .223 does at the muzzle. Afghanistan is long range mountain to mountain, .223 didn't have the range in these style engagements.
@craigbeatty8565
@craigbeatty8565 2 жыл бұрын
7.62 has longer range.
@cbwelch4
@cbwelch4 2 жыл бұрын
The US Army did a study in Iraq that found it took between 2-3,rounds to incapacitate an enemy combatant. Their numbers, not mine. There’s a reason the next gen weapon is not chambered in 5.56. See the battle of Wanat, which might be an indictment of DI as much as 5.56. Past 400 yards 5.56 is anemic fired from an M4.
@marcuswright4592
@marcuswright4592 2 жыл бұрын
@@cbwelch4 the 5.56 has it's place inside 150 yards it can create very nasty wounds but past that give me the 7.62
@TALIZ0RAH
@TALIZ0RAH 2 жыл бұрын
5.56 was designed to increase volume of fire amongst a rifle squad. All other benefits of it are secondary.
@cyberdaemon
@cyberdaemon 4 ай бұрын
One reason is that smaller round wounds enemy rather than kills, forcing its comrades to carry the wounded and by that taking more of them out of the fight. Talking about 5.56, lets not forget that it was the germans who came up with the idea of assault rifle and not US or Russia.
@crazycrab8578
@crazycrab8578 4 ай бұрын
@@cyberdaemon true,
@firstjohn3123
@firstjohn3123 4 ай бұрын
@@cyberdaemon Until the enemy (like the Chinese) just let their fellow soldiers lay there....and you're 100% correct on the history...
@kiwigrunt330
@kiwigrunt330 4 ай бұрын
@@cyberdaemon That ridiculous myth just won't die...
@ross82
@ross82 4 ай бұрын
5.56 was used because girly Americans can’t handle anything more powerful, everything else is secondary.
@charleshooper1465
@charleshooper1465 5 ай бұрын
in 1969, I went thru bootcamp on Parris Island and qualified on the rifle range with the M14.never saw an M16 until I got to Vietnam.when I got an M16 and was zeroing it in, I was amazed at the "smallness" of the 5.56 as compared to the M14 round. there were many times I wish that I would have had my M14 . I can't say that I was a "big" fan of the 5.56 but I learned (like all marines, since 1775,) to "overcome and adapt"! ...semper fi
@Slava_Yarmolenko
@Slava_Yarmolenko 4 ай бұрын
Wasn't the USMC created in 1798??? Like USN was created to protect American trade shipping against northern African pirates... Its like saying that air force birthday is october 1861 (union army balloon corps birthday). Also in the line "From the halls of Montezuma, to the shores of Tripoli" I fail to see any references to the Revolutionary war.
@11C1P
@11C1P 4 ай бұрын
@@Slava_Yarmolenko No. Army was created in the spring of 1775, the Navy & Marines in the fall of 1775. The Navy & Marines were disbanded at the end of the revolutionary war but reconstituted in 1798. The U.S. Army is the only branch that has been in service without interruption since 1775.
@NTATchannelNickTaylor
@NTATchannelNickTaylor 3 ай бұрын
My father also went to Nam and he didn't like the M16 at all for a myriad of reasons. I carried the M16/M4 in Iraq and Afghanistan but there were units that got issued 14's and shelved the M4's. I have an M1A and I love that rifle. Humped the pig for a little bit as a Private too, never had to hump the SAW as I was well above that pay grade when they came out. I don't remember anyone in my time served complaining about the weight. They must have asked some support (no diss) troops or something.
@schfiftyfive9680
@schfiftyfive9680 3 ай бұрын
I'm one of the only GWOT soldiers to have been able to have used both. It depends on what you're doing but in Afghanistan, I loved my EBR. In Iraq I liked the M4 and opted to keep the M24 in the truck if I needed it. Most of the engagements I saw in Afghanistan were long and I liked the Leupold 3.5-10 with the wind resistance of the 175 grain 308. In iraq I wanted more ammo but still like the ACOG so I could reliably hit long distances.
@NTATchannelNickTaylor
@NTATchannelNickTaylor 3 ай бұрын
@@schfiftyfive9680 Yes, range to target (edited because I put RTT thinking everyone knows our "talk") from Iraq to Afgh was very different including angle of fire. I don't think I had anything over 250-300 in Iraq. Afghanistan was a totally different story.
@jefffriedberg
@jefffriedberg 2 жыл бұрын
This is not really about bullets. It’s about bullsht.
@jackt6112
@jackt6112 2 жыл бұрын
No kidding! The Russians dumped the AK-47 a long time ago for their own 5.56.
@jefffriedberg
@jefffriedberg 2 жыл бұрын
@@jackt6112 I did not know that.
@AmazonWebService98
@AmazonWebService98 2 жыл бұрын
@@jackt6112 it's 5.45 but nice try and AK47 hasn't been used in decades
@trevorhoward7682
@trevorhoward7682 2 жыл бұрын
@@AmazonWebService98 Except all over Asi and Africa - and almost all Islamist terrorists.
@thewatcher5271
@thewatcher5271 2 жыл бұрын
Well Said & A Better Question Might Be, Why Does The U.S. Military Use An Annoying Computer Generated Voice To Narrate Its Videos!?!
@cascadianrangers728
@cascadianrangers728 2 жыл бұрын
100% sure we use both, i have carried soooooo many belts of 7.62 for m240
@sakil8272
@sakil8272 2 жыл бұрын
But isn't the 5.56 more common
@cascadianrangers728
@cascadianrangers728 2 жыл бұрын
@@sakil8272 hella more common. Probably about 10 rifle and 4 saws for every 7.62 gmpg
@11C1P
@11C1P 2 жыл бұрын
Yeah, my kid is an M240 gunner right now. My units had M60's when I was in, but the M240 was on many of the tanks back then.
@DopeSauceBenevolence
@DopeSauceBenevolence 2 жыл бұрын
@@sakil8272 We use both. Period. We ALSO use 9mm for the Berettas, 50 cals for the sniper rifles and MGs, 32mm for the canons on the Bradley, and so on and so on and so on. 5.56 is in the M4 and the M16, as well as the SAW. That's why there's more of it around. BUT we also use 7.62 in the 240 series (Bravo for light troops and Lima for mounted on trucks and other vehicles, etc.)
@cascadianrangers728
@cascadianrangers728 2 жыл бұрын
@@11C1P The pig! I've heard a bunch about the ol m60, not much of it positive! God bless your son, and tell him to remember short, controlled 6-8 round bursts! Now that I'm the tax payer, he needs to save moar spare barrel!
@70rrsteve51
@70rrsteve51 2 жыл бұрын
If I’m correct, a major factor behind the adoption of the 7.62 x 51 round was that it was expected that NATO troops would be dug in, defending against hordes of Soviets storming their way west across Europe. At that time, according to that doctrine, a round with better range and accuracy than the Soviet 7.62 x 39 seemed the logical choice.
@lurebenson7722
@lurebenson7722 5 ай бұрын
Machineguns aren't match winning benchrest shooting guns they are made to spray bullets. !
@patrickgriffitt6551
@patrickgriffitt6551 5 ай бұрын
7.62x39 is actually quite accurate just not in an AK.
@J-nd9ub
@J-nd9ub 5 ай бұрын
Don't you mean "adoption of the 5.56 round" ?
@dcw56
@dcw56 4 ай бұрын
@@J-nd9ub I think he means what he said. The .308 was adopted after WWII because it was slightly lighter to carry the same amount of ammo, and the M-14 rifle was the next generation of the Garand, but with a high cap magazine and full auto. Much lighter than the Browning BAR, by 14 pounds, and could carry a 30 round magazine. Garand, although the best rifle of all time, could only be loaded with eight rounds. I have a few of them. Nothing better for ANY range of combat (barring .50 BMG), but only eight rounds. (Still more than the 1898 Mauser that the Germs were using.)
@dcw56
@dcw56 4 ай бұрын
@@patrickgriffitt6551 All cartridges are accurate when used in their optimum action/barrel match up. A .22 Hornet will pick off the chins at 300 yards if fired out of the correct well made rifle. But! That comm round you mentioned is normally fired from a stamped out AK made by a $1 per hour "equal" worker. Suck it, comms.
@drofmah3836
@drofmah3836 2 жыл бұрын
As a combat veteran of the Vietnam war I can tell you for the most part not a lot of complaints with that ammo. The damage it did to the enemy was jaw dropping after seeing what damage it caused to a human being for such a small sized bullet. My favorite was the BAR (Browning Automatic Rifle) using the 30 caliper bullet. Even though not as fast of rapid fire like the 30 cal. machine gun it was more accurate farther. To me seeing what production you get from certain weapons the machine guns are the dinosaur of weapons, a lot of ammo for little gain. Even the Pentagon was aware of this and had our M16's changed to three round burst.
@mariontinsley8646
@mariontinsley8646 Жыл бұрын
3 round bursts were to stop spray and pray. t also hurt accuracy of the weapon.
@cwolf8841
@cwolf8841 Жыл бұрын
😊the fair comparison is system vs system. The M14 was heavy, long, hard recoiling, and not great at rapid fire. The M16 was shorter, lighter, lower recoil, and at the time was full auto. Fighting folks in jungles with AK47s made the m14 a liability. Although the M14 made a better spear than the M16. :) Folks insist on getting full auto but it’s wildly inaccurate but more satisfying. The net result with full auto is huge rates of ammo consumption with relatively few dead/wounded Bad Guys. We finally moved to qualifying with multiple positions. The Israeli doctrine is move to the most stable position possible….. increases accuracy and decreased exposure. The USMC study found expert shooters could not hit moving targets. So the USMC is investing heavily in high tech ranges. The new M5 with the sophisticated Vortex scope may increase lethality even more.
@georgethompson5459
@georgethompson5459 Жыл бұрын
A lot of the ammo used in the Vietnam war was left over from the Korean war.
@douglasscovil3447
@douglasscovil3447 Жыл бұрын
7.62 x 36 mm is a .30 caliber bullet, which has more hitting and killing power than 556 Nato, so i would argue you don't need to carry as many rounds of 7.62 compared to 5.56. i keep seeing stories on YT from soldiers who served in the middle east who say the enemy (not wearing a flak vest) would take a couple rounds of 5.56 in the chest and stay in the fight for another minute before dying, where one of our soldiers was hit with a single 7.62 and quickly went down even though he was wearing a flak vest.
@reggiestockton8166
@reggiestockton8166 10 ай бұрын
I want 7.62 I want to drop a man with 2 or 3 bullets. Not hit him 2 or 3 times and he lives for another 20 seconds. Alot can happen in that time even though hes basically already dead. A man gets hit with 556 right in his chest and he can still be up and moving. But a 762 is dropping whoever it hits.
@tylerduchesneau
@tylerduchesneau 2 жыл бұрын
I find it funny that most of the ammo in the video is 7.62.
@svborek
@svborek 2 жыл бұрын
Thought the same THING.
@CR3W1SH03S
@CR3W1SH03S 2 жыл бұрын
Was thinking that too... "my, that's pretty big for 5.56."
@paranoiawilldestroyya3238
@paranoiawilldestroyya3238 2 жыл бұрын
looked like most of the footage was the 7.62 mm M60 LMG.
@bravo23delta90
@bravo23delta90 2 жыл бұрын
Beat me to it.
@notschramm3461
@notschramm3461 2 жыл бұрын
Exactly. There was some m249 SAW footage but the majority of the footage was from the m240 Bravo/Gulf.
@TheKrighter
@TheKrighter 2 жыл бұрын
That robot voice: "The NATO 7"..........."Point 62 round". Geezuz.
@charleslamica5123
@charleslamica5123 2 жыл бұрын
I wish they'd quit using the computerized narration. It's very distracting when the robot says something stupid.
@michaelsmith296
@michaelsmith296 2 жыл бұрын
So that's all you've got to complain about ? The self order kiosk at McDonald's and Taco Bell must really wad your underoos 🤣. Lol
@nathanielpatterson6963
@nathanielpatterson6963 2 жыл бұрын
@@michaelsmith296 Who still eats overpriced fast food?
@TheKrighter
@TheKrighter 2 жыл бұрын
@@michaelsmith296 No, I have plenty more to complain about. How much time you got?
@rockbutcher
@rockbutcher 2 жыл бұрын
As a light infantryman, the difference in weight was 1/4 pound for more ammo. Big whoop. Carry my pack for me. The difference in reality was that whereas I could knock chunks off of a bad guy at 400m+ over iron sights with 7.62mm (deliberate fire), I then had to deal with the ping-pong ball effect past 200m...negating the 'extra ammo' bit. When they rolled the BB gun out in the CDN military, I tried it out of course....shoots like a dream up close. I complained to my Dad about it, he was 34 years Arty. His response, "Son, when they switched from the .54 cal muzzle loader to the .50, the infantrymen bitched that it didn't have enough stopping power."
@chrisgabbert658
@chrisgabbert658 2 жыл бұрын
There’s no one size fits all needs.
@vikramdhanush7237
@vikramdhanush7237 2 жыл бұрын
Send me link of top american youtube channel (defence related youtube channel of american youtuber)
@achillesrodriguezxx3958
@achillesrodriguezxx3958 2 жыл бұрын
Learnt that in Vietnam. When they tried to replace everything with the m14
@chrisgabbert658
@chrisgabbert658 2 жыл бұрын
Achilles RodriguezXX they the military has been trying to find the right one size for decades to no avail 🤷‍♂️
@teddy.d174
@teddy.d174 2 жыл бұрын
And now they’re testing a 6.8mm round with the NGSW (next generation squad weapon).
@chrisgabbert658
@chrisgabbert658 2 жыл бұрын
The Darth Knight 🤷‍♂️ politicians and war machine doesn’t want it no money for them 🙂
@duartesimoes508
@duartesimoes508 2 жыл бұрын
Both calibers have important advantages and we have seen that none of them can fully replace the other. When you need longer range and penetration you can't go without the 7,62, heavier and more expensive as it may be.
@knightofthesun758
@knightofthesun758 2 жыл бұрын
Yup.
@youwebz
@youwebz 2 жыл бұрын
Or compromise and go say 6.8mm 🤔
@user-qg2st1zb3e
@user-qg2st1zb3e 2 жыл бұрын
And 7.62 fired from M-14 is more deadly, incomparable by any other weapons even today.
@shaenj
@shaenj 2 жыл бұрын
I was waiting to see commonsense, It took a while. Thanks Duarte.
@lamarsidoner3250
@lamarsidoner3250 2 жыл бұрын
from what i have seen and read,,the 7.62 has better knock down power,,
@kennethquesenberry2610
@kennethquesenberry2610 2 жыл бұрын
Soldiers have been complaining about the loss in stopping power ever since they went from the .50-70 to the .45-70.
@kennethquesenberry2610
@kennethquesenberry2610 2 жыл бұрын
@cloverleafsippa713 But why do you suppose hunters now overwhelmingly select other cartridges, a trend that began, I think, with the introduction of the .30-30? Even so, the .32 Winchester Special had a certain amount of popularity for those wanting a bigger bore. Those were lever actions. Today, the popular cartridges would be all of the bolt-action cartridges, many based on the .30-06 or the .308. I imagine there are still hunters using .44 magnum and .45-70 rifles anyway.
@redtra236
@redtra236 2 жыл бұрын
@cloverleafsippa713 The .50-70 and .45-70 didn't use musket balls they used extremely heavy conical bullets. The .30-30 was one of the first smokeless powder rounds that had a lighter bullet but much higher velocity is why it was so popular. That and no huge puff of smoke and bore fouling really quickly.
@aaronnichols9444
@aaronnichols9444 Жыл бұрын
Ok 7.62 weighs more, but in my experience you need LESS ammo. I served in Battle of Fallujah and witnessed first hand just how weak 5.56 is compared to 7.62. There were instances where we needed to shoot hajis several times to bring them down. A 7.62 round will down down the enemy with one shot every single time. Accuracy by volume is great when you’re manning a machine gun, but for a rifleman a more lethal round is better than carrying more less lethal rounds.
@nickjenkins1663
@nickjenkins1663 5 ай бұрын
excellent point.
@mattmihalovich2559
@mattmihalovich2559 4 ай бұрын
Convince your command to use something other than ball rounds and you might see a big difference for the 5.56. The 7.62/.308 is also a good round
@dr.frankenphoon6254
@dr.frankenphoon6254 2 жыл бұрын
The entire video talks about 5.56mm, yet the entire video is featuring 7.62mm ammo being handled and fired. You're as bad as "Dark Docs"!
@redstone5149
@redstone5149 2 жыл бұрын
I don’t know, Dark Docs is pretty d@mn sh@tty.
@cayman9873
@cayman9873 2 жыл бұрын
About as good as the old hk ad with the rounds loaded backwards in the mags.
@xo5347
@xo5347 2 жыл бұрын
@Nature Taco it's not officially the defense news
@joenop3393
@joenop3393 2 жыл бұрын
When I was in the Air Force one of our standard weapons on Fire Teams was the M-60....it used 7.62mm. Our M-16's and GAU's used 5.56mm.
@karenripley3678
@karenripley3678 2 жыл бұрын
US pushed for 7.62mm over the British 0.280 (7mm) developed since 1945, believing that 0.280 was too small.
@henrygrey346
@henrygrey346 2 жыл бұрын
So 5.56mm was a better choice?
@newdefsys
@newdefsys 2 жыл бұрын
The US military is made up of many factions. The Ordnance Department pushed the 7.62 on NATO members in Europe while the Continental Army Command developed the 5.56 for conflicts in South East Asia. To suggest the US is a singular unnerving head is, inaccurate.
@bartb7790
@bartb7790 2 жыл бұрын
@@henrygrey346 It didnt exist at the moment the US forced the 7,62x51mm on its NATO partners.
@henrygrey346
@henrygrey346 2 жыл бұрын
@@bartb7790 what the hell for? But I tell you that I did basic recruit training with the UK L1A1, including Qualification Shoot. Went on to mid-east ops with the L1A1 and also the L7A2- both beautiful weapons. I have used the M16A2 for much more of my military service, but I still love the L1A1. First love, perhaps?
@paulcollyer801
@paulcollyer801 2 жыл бұрын
@@henrygrey346, I have yet to find an ex serviceman who fired the SLR prefer another weapon. Before my time, but she sure has a lot of lovers. The only tale I heard of a down side was when one guy had been doing something that required the gas plug? dialled right back so less ballistic power to the bullet & much more recoil, & forgot to set it back for range day…. Kicked like a mule on PCP apparently lol
@johnnieharnest8877
@johnnieharnest8877 2 жыл бұрын
I don't want no teenage queen, i just want my m- 14 !
@georgemacdonell2341
@georgemacdonell2341 2 жыл бұрын
Sound off!!
@davidpaver7613
@davidpaver7613 2 жыл бұрын
1 2
@kennethquesenberry2610
@kennethquesenberry2610 2 жыл бұрын
Interestingly enough, the AR-15 was introduced at just about the same time as the M-14.
@georgemacdonell2341
@georgemacdonell2341 2 жыл бұрын
@@davidpaver7613 sound off, 34. Damn, haven't done that in over 50 years. Thanks for the memories. OORAH!
@rkf2746
@rkf2746 2 жыл бұрын
@@georgemacdonell2341 Bring it on down!!! Thanks for the memories. Haven't heard that since Gunny Dotson was singing for us. Plt 182 P.I. 1969
@f1r3hunt3rz5
@f1r3hunt3rz5 2 жыл бұрын
5.56 works, provided that sufficient barrel length is used so that the caliber can reach its full potential, which a 20-inch barrel provides. Lesser than that then the caliber's effectiveness drops, like we see in US invasion on Afghanistan. But the best solution is definitely to change to a better heavier round like 7.62x51 NATO, OR design a new, better cartridge altogether. Both of them are expensive endeavours. Kind of funny that as the military became modernized, a worse caliber was chosen to replace a better one. I have always known that the Cold War era rifles is the best compromise between reliability and lethality/effectiveness/stopping power.
@89tonstar
@89tonstar 2 жыл бұрын
At the end of the day the 5.56 is still a rifle caliber cartridge with rifle caliber stopping power. It is capable of devastating wounds and wounds an enemy combatant is unlikely to survive. The Army is now looking at a 6.5 ot 6.8 caliber dual purpose cartridge, one that can be fired in a small arm as general issue and one that can be chambered for light machine guns and still retain stopping power, penetrative qualities and long range capability. Something like a 6.5x47 or 6.8x 45 would do excellent. Regardless I think the US military had spent way way to much money on 5.56 ammunition logistics and supply to ever move away from the caliber. We will probably be seeing 5.56 till at least the mid 21 century.
@f1r3hunt3rz5
@f1r3hunt3rz5 2 жыл бұрын
@@89tonstar True and true. In my view: The US military is looking to replace the 5.56 firstly because currently the battlefield favours long engagement distance from well beyond the actual effectiveness of the 5.56 caliber and the M4 platform. This lesson is first learnt, again during US's (failed) invasion in Afghanistan. The M4 platform works well in tight urban areas i.e. CQB operations, but fails to be truly effective on medium to long distances. Secondly, today's challenge is where a lot of militaries have started equipping their troops with body armor capable of stopping the 5.56 caliber itself, most notable of this for example is China. You can forget about any effect of the caliber on flesh when it can't even penetrate the opposition's soon-to-be common type body armor. To add to that, China's own intermediate cartridge the 5.8x42mm is said to travel further than the 5.56 and is purposely tailored to penetrate current common body armor worn by troops such as, you guessed it, US troops. It is a logical move by the US military in their desperate attempt to still be ahead of everyone else.
@Rocks_vs_Uzis
@Rocks_vs_Uzis 2 жыл бұрын
@@f1r3hunt3rz5 China does not equip its troops with body armor. Their leadership literally said it negatively affects fighting spirit, look it up.
@f1r3hunt3rz5
@f1r3hunt3rz5 2 жыл бұрын
@@Rocks_vs_Uzis That has changed. China is now working to equip their troops with body armor. Look it up.
@fredcollins8919
@fredcollins8919 2 жыл бұрын
@@f1r3hunt3rz5 regardless they are still way behind Quality wise both in ammo type & body armor & other gear when compared to the US & rest of NATO & we all (including most of the world) hopes it truly STAYS that way. The US WILL soon be fielding & using (superbly as always) newer & better ammo & gear & other ítems. Sooner rather than later both for short Range firefights & also for mid/longer Range peer to peer fights. Cheers
@maciii069
@maciii069 2 жыл бұрын
Still prefer the 7.62 as it has better stopping power. One other reason why the 5.56 was introduced was the theory that in a squad if one is wounded it usually takes the squad to remove the wouned soldier. I stil prefer the 7.62. It's so powerful and I have seen the damage it can do being an Ex serviceman.
@georgemacdonell2341
@georgemacdonell2341 2 жыл бұрын
Plus the 7.62 at close range can get more than aim point with through and throughs
@lifeistoshortgottobeoptimi8707
@lifeistoshortgottobeoptimi8707 2 жыл бұрын
In addition, now it's cheaper than 223 556 brass you can shoot steel all day 7.62x39
@maciii069
@maciii069 2 жыл бұрын
@Chip Whitley Because it's true. Your more likly to survive a 5.56 round than 7.62.
@maciii069
@maciii069 2 жыл бұрын
@Chip Whitley Our NZ troops who served in Vietnam preferred the SLR over the M16 because of the stopping power. A SLR round will go through a 12 inch block of concrete or in case of Nam would go through a rubber tree, in some case it would not but the pressure created would splinter the tree on the otherside so anybody on that side would be wounded or killed. Like any round if a direct hit to the body mass with either round would usally kill a person.
@maciii069
@maciii069 2 жыл бұрын
@Chip Whitley Yes it will. I have done it on a firing range and serveral times. This was in my earlier Army days.
@Emdee5632
@Emdee5632 2 жыл бұрын
I was kind of hoping the .280 British intermediate cartridge got mentioned when the narrator was talking about the 1950s. Nope.
@ccfmfg
@ccfmfg 2 жыл бұрын
How about the Garand chambered in the .276 Peterson in the 1930s?
@g.k.1669
@g.k.1669 2 жыл бұрын
5:52 ...... That point where your buddy's poor marksmanship drives you insane and you want to show him how it is done.
@josephastier7421
@josephastier7421 2 жыл бұрын
That would be the "Hey stop hogging it all!" drill.
@e.l.9589
@e.l.9589 2 жыл бұрын
Next generation will be paintballs, as to not hurt anyone's feeling.
@markmanwaring3823
@markmanwaring3823 2 жыл бұрын
Nah , paint balls leave bruises , gel balls only mate . They took my M60 off me and gave me a bloody 556 Minimi that wouldn't shoot through a hardwood fence post . My days were done !
@ut000bs
@ut000bs 2 жыл бұрын
Only the US will be using them. The US has become soft and squishy. Pansies. Well, except for most of the Marines.
@carguy3028
@carguy3028 2 жыл бұрын
I disagree, bullets hurt people not feelings.
@throwaway692
@throwaway692 2 жыл бұрын
I don't think the Chinese or Russians got the message. Our people are going to be in for a big surprise methinks for exactly the reason you specify.
@jasonbeale6875
@jasonbeale6875 2 жыл бұрын
Those paintballs are also nice and colourful. Almost like being assaulted by the pride flag
@jilow6356
@jilow6356 2 жыл бұрын
It's actually because its the closest size to ratio of a crayon.
@aa-yt7wo
@aa-yt7wo 2 жыл бұрын
Doesn't that make it difficult to keep marines from eating them?
@pbj0271
@pbj0271 2 жыл бұрын
@@aa-yt7wo It can be an issue, but its mainly for compatibility with the already made crayon belts and magazines.
@christopherlarsen7788
@christopherlarsen7788 2 жыл бұрын
CLIFF NOTES: The US spent 25 years convincing our allies around the world that the 5.56mm round should be the standard. If America departs from the 5.56mm after its 57 years of service, it would cause significant financial (and therefore national defense) hardships for our allies.
@christopherlarsen7788
@christopherlarsen7788 2 жыл бұрын
@MoralSingularity - Meh...I use the term loosely. It would be more accurate to say NATO, SEATO, and similar treaties with nation in Central and South America.
@Frank--Lee
@Frank--Lee Жыл бұрын
I believe we [USA & NATO] are switching to a larger bore infantry rifle for some reasons -- such as enemy body armor, improved helmets, we can put on better sights, so we can shoot further, etc.
@christopherlarsen7788
@christopherlarsen7788 Жыл бұрын
@@Frank--Lee - That is the narrative. It's not very convincing. A similar narrative just a few years ago was that the AR15 needed a gas piston instead of direct impingement to make the weapon "shoot cleaner." This was solving a problem I've never experienced in 42 years of small unit tactical instruction, 9 years in the US Army Infantry, and as a veteran of two wars. Instead, we later found out that the piston system violated the fundamental design of the AR15 - the results were poor, and damned expensive. It was a failure. Today, we're told we need a "bigger bullet." Maybe, maybe not. The M14 was a casualty of its own objectives. The US Army did not need a rifleman who could hit a target at 800 meters - when 70 percent of all small arms casualties are inflicted at 100 meters or less. By the time we move the measurement out to 400 meters, we've accounted for perhaps 98 percent of small arms casualties...with the remainder picked up mainly by machine gun crews. We need to shoot through enemy body armor? First off, which enemy has that quality of body armor? Answer: None! Moreover, the desire to penetrate body armor demonstrates a misunderstanding of the value inherent of wounded an enemy, rather than killing the enemy. Wounded enemy require more enemy resources! That's true both tactically on the battlefield and logistically in care facilities. The M5 is looking to solve a problem that doesn't exist. And at the cost of what? Screwing over our allies? Throwing the baby (AR15) out with the bath water?
@Fausto410
@Fausto410 4 ай бұрын
NATO has a chokehold on the military industrial complex
@nickrussett259
@nickrussett259 2 жыл бұрын
I just want to know why the soldier was pulling the rounds off of the stripper clip each one by one and then inserting into his magazine instead of using the STRIPPER CLIP LOL
@jackmehoff2363
@jackmehoff2363 2 жыл бұрын
No one showed him what it was. A while back the army found a way to save money, push all the older ncos out who was deployed. An nco whos the same rank with less time In costs less than an older experienced one of the same rank. They saw it as saving money. Lost a ton of knowledge. Not the soldiers fault no one showed him.
@shane99ca
@shane99ca 2 жыл бұрын
@@jackmehoff2363 They saw shutting down Brooklyn Navy Yard and Springfield Armory as saving money, too. Now America's troops have to fight with mouse guns due to Robert "Strange" McNamara's think-tank approach to weapons procurement.
@mikhailkalashnikov4599
@mikhailkalashnikov4599 2 жыл бұрын
I seem to remember that when using the stripper clip, sometimes the rounds wouldn't fully seat to the rear of the magazine properly and at times can malfunction. Even tapping the back of the mag on your helmet sometimes won't work when loading 10 at a time vs. every 3 or so. If the time is available to manually load the rounds you may be better off- we did a lot of "hurry up and wait", LOL.
@shane99ca
@shane99ca 2 жыл бұрын
@@mikhailkalashnikov4599 In Canada, our stripper clips for the FN C1 were in fives, and I believe those for the older Enfield rifles were also in fives. I found they worked reliably.
@mikhailkalashnikov4599
@mikhailkalashnikov4599 2 жыл бұрын
@@shane99ca Most stripper clips work great, and the 7.62x39 work well also. The design of the US stripper clips is what I believe to be inferior- the tabs at either end of the clip just don't work as well as the other designs.
@michaeljoesting4888
@michaeljoesting4888 2 жыл бұрын
We have and continue to use both rounds.
@TheWtfnonamez
@TheWtfnonamez 2 жыл бұрын
This is interesting because a similar philosophy is used with tanks. There are advantages and disadvantages of super-heavy tank vehicles, but nearly all countries tend to go with one main battle tank design, that all operate around the same parameters. The reason is speed. During the end of WWII, the allied forces realised that their armoured divisions advance was only as fast as the slowest vehicles. The Russians for example, found they were constantly waiting for their KV-2s to trundle down the road and catch up with their faster units. The bottom line is that military design is important, but logistics IS warfare. I would also note that a study of the Falkands War produced a few very interesting statistics. Namely, "nearly all soldiers miss absolutely everything, nearly all the time". Sad but true, but nearly every bullet fired in a war misses. So thats why most of the time it doesnt matter what you are shooting, because most rifle calibre rounds will result in taking the soldier off the battlefield. Its also the reason why snipers and special forces get a better selection of weaponry and ammunition types ..... because they tend to HIT their targets reliably.
@nbk9372
@nbk9372 2 жыл бұрын
Carried the "Pig" (M60) from 78 to 82 and remember having to transition from that to the SAW. Was both giddy and reserved when the SAW was introduced, it was a hell of a lot lighter than the pig that was one damn thing for sure. That was the last time I ever carried a towel around with me, use to put the towel on my shoulder to pad the weight of the M60. Always loved the pig, but the weight use to be a grind when you're on long range patrols and having to carry extra ammo belts, but was a great mower & meat grinder when the shit hit the fan.
@NickDevXT
@NickDevXT 2 жыл бұрын
Same idea as a sword, it just has to be good enough. Sure you can make a giant double-handed sword that can cut a person in half, but it would likely suck when it comes to blocking / deflecting or follow up if you miss your target. so invent a sword that's just heavy enough to inflict a lethal wound, but light enough to also make a good defense implement or fast enough to manipulate into a follow up blow in case the first one missed.
@drvee1983
@drvee1983 2 жыл бұрын
A perfect example of why a katana is better than a claymore sword. Different weapons and culture, but possibly a good analogy. Katanas are fast, and nimble in trained hands.
@patrickgriffitt6551
@patrickgriffitt6551 5 ай бұрын
​@@drvee1983You beat me to it. Congrats
@brobrio
@brobrio 4 ай бұрын
good analogy
@georgehays4900
@georgehays4900 2 жыл бұрын
We (the US) do still use 7.62 in many weapons
@lestermount3287
@lestermount3287 2 жыл бұрын
the only reason we were given when we converted from the M-14 to the M-16 was it allowed us to carry more rounds for the same weight.
@kyle18934
@kyle18934 2 жыл бұрын
the reoil is much less to. I have a 5.56 and a 30.06 and boy do i feel the difference when shooting them. the .223 feels like a .22LR compared to the 30.06 lol
@Ghatbkk
@Ghatbkk 2 жыл бұрын
The very beginning of the video starts with a falsehood. The US did not choose to implement 5.56mm instead of 7,62mm. The 7.62mm NATO round was adopted and US standard well before the 5.56mm even existed, and the 7.62mm NATO round is still in standard use by the US military for machineguns and some rifles.
@davidbrayshaw3529
@davidbrayshaw3529 2 жыл бұрын
That was my understanding too. It wasn't really until the development of the AR15/M16 a few years later that the US military considered the 5.56 as a viable round. The 5.56x45 round didn't displace the 7.62X51 and eventually it was Adopted by NATO who didn't see any reason to discontinue the use of its big brother, the 7.62x51, Each round found it's way into the hands of different operatives armed with different firearms and with different objectives. Even NATO managed to realise that .22 and .30 have their plus's and minus's. One's not better than the other but they are different.
@dbmail545
@dbmail545 2 жыл бұрын
@@davidbrayshaw3529 absolutely. SCHV for battle rifles and full power cartridges for GPMG's.
@jimig211
@jimig211 2 жыл бұрын
@Al Lock thank you & keep settin' the record straight , sir!
@johnwright9372
@johnwright9372 2 жыл бұрын
One idea is that the round tends to wound thus recovery and care of the wounded takes up more enemy resources, but ask a soldier and he would like a round to knock an enemy down so he stays down.
@paulross9287
@paulross9287 2 жыл бұрын
Surprised our politically correct military doesn't decide to use 22 shorts, following that logic.
@TonyFreeman-LocoTonyF
@TonyFreeman-LocoTonyF 2 жыл бұрын
Not true.
@marksmith7054
@marksmith7054 2 жыл бұрын
they also Deflect very easily when hit Branches and Palm Frons that says you missed your target, that 30 cal doesn't really care about branches and palm frons it still hits the target.
@heavycruzer1801
@heavycruzer1801 2 жыл бұрын
The 30-06 cartridge was the best. We should've stayed with that and made lightweight modular assault rifles to accommodate this beast of a cartridge
@6mojo
@6mojo 2 жыл бұрын
I loved my GPMG when I was in the Royal Marines!
@abrahamdozer6273
@abrahamdozer6273 2 жыл бұрын
Used to shoot 7.62mm FNs. Lots of kick and the weapon was fairly heavy (lighter than the old Lee Enfield .303s that it replaced, though).
@timothycook2917
@timothycook2917 2 жыл бұрын
I love shooting my 1914 .303 Enfield
@wesleyferguson6932
@wesleyferguson6932 2 жыл бұрын
I have a 303 . It’s a heavy gun for sure.
@abrahamdozer6273
@abrahamdozer6273 2 жыл бұрын
@@timothycook2917 .303 was the real deal.
@curtisthomas2670
@curtisthomas2670 2 жыл бұрын
Funny hearing it claimed that the US choice of ammo was a factor in the collapse of the USSR
@billbrinkman7304
@billbrinkman7304 2 жыл бұрын
It's been 38 years ago since i went through basic, but we were always told because the 5.56mm round tumbled when it impacted & that it was more of a kill round.
@bucknut2850
@bucknut2850 2 жыл бұрын
What they told me too.........
@stuartmcpherson1921
@stuartmcpherson1921 4 ай бұрын
Eent through basics in '69 and at that time the 'tumble' was popular opinion but were told ballistically it is impossible and the round spins its tail end wide.
@tonyk8163
@tonyk8163 2 жыл бұрын
Tbh 5.56 is fine for most troops have a mix. Ex SMG/5.56/7.62 for special needs cases SSR/LMG/crew serv and vehicle mounted. What we have today and how we use it is fine. Most troops have an optic so 5.56 to the face when able is definitely lethal.
@teddy.d174
@teddy.d174 2 жыл бұрын
The 🇺🇸 has been testing its Next Generation Squad Weapon that uses a 6.8mm round.
@keithlucas6260
@keithlucas6260 2 жыл бұрын
Still an AR-10 with a piston gas system made by Sig Sauer....love my AR-10 in 308/NATO
@theroboticcobra7036
@theroboticcobra7036 2 жыл бұрын
I look forward to it. At least when it’s in civilian market but I know some troops won’t like it because the Sig is over 8 pounds. Tho I’m sure its accuracy, ballistics, and increased velocity makes up for it.
@aewhatever
@aewhatever 2 жыл бұрын
Yeah they're trying to find that comprise.
@teddy.d174
@teddy.d174 2 жыл бұрын
@@theroboticcobra7036 …Agree, I’d love to have one.
@resiefan3258
@resiefan3258 2 жыл бұрын
@Chip Whitley possibly just special forces and marines. while regular army will still use the M4.
@edwardgoering1237
@edwardgoering1237 2 жыл бұрын
I believe the way my cous said it when he was on patrol in Viet Nam they usually walked around 50 miles a day because when you do a sweep you don't want the enemy to get a fix on ya [Mortars] 5.5 was alot lighter so you could carry more. He told me after a firefight they acquired an AK-47 and that rifle went to the point man who sometimes would be out on a limb and he could blend in better
@fredboat
@fredboat 2 жыл бұрын
M240B ? IS it still being used? 7.62 NATO , Shot some today, Great round.
@marcuswright4592
@marcuswright4592 2 жыл бұрын
Think they use the 240L now
@whitemadea7356
@whitemadea7356 2 жыл бұрын
God Bless Our US Military 🙏 Thank You for your service 🇺🇸
@gdolson9419
@gdolson9419 2 жыл бұрын
As retired Marine (and Vietnam vet) I much prefer the 7.62 over the 5.56. That said, in Vietnam there was a critical need for the ability of troop to carry more ammo and the close quarters nature of jungle warfare make a full auto capability highly desirable. Thus the M-16.
@whitemadea7356
@whitemadea7356 2 жыл бұрын
@@gdolson9419 God Bless You Sir. 🙏 You are a Miracle and I Love and Thank You for Everything you experienced and achieved. It did not go unnoticed or unappreciated. 🇺🇸
@videomaniac108
@videomaniac108 4 ай бұрын
I was first exposed to the M-16 in during Army basic training in 1969 and liked the rifle for how light it was and how small the recoil was. The only thing I didn't like was its tendency to jam unexpectedly, despite my best efforts to keep it clean and lubricated. The M-16 was the standard infantry rifle at that time and had replaced the M-14, although our armory still had M-14s in stock and we had to demonstrate familiarity with them and proficiency in use. When I fired the M-14 for the first time from a crouch position it nearly knocked me over on my butt, from the unexpected huge recoil.
@izsafe1
@izsafe1 2 жыл бұрын
we went to Iraq in 04 with 5.56 M16, but began seeing some old M14s (7.62mm) being put back in to service for a few good shooters in platoons due to the better range.
@phillip_iv_planetking6354
@phillip_iv_planetking6354 2 жыл бұрын
Yeah mainly snipers. The M14 was not used much in Iraq like in Afghanistan.
@danw7156
@danw7156 2 жыл бұрын
@@phillip_iv_planetking6354 the ones I saw were not “snipers” just the best shots in their platoons. I was not in Afghanistan so I can’t say much about that place.
@ShawnJackson-or4je
@ShawnJackson-or4je 5 ай бұрын
The 5.56x45 does a lot of damage on impact. The round tumbles ripping through the flesh. I remember my DS telling stories of rounds entering chest and exiting the foot.
@Steinstra-vj7wl
@Steinstra-vj7wl 2 жыл бұрын
7.62mm has a lot more stopping power. Taking down the enemy is a lot more important than weight.
@orlock20
@orlock20 2 жыл бұрын
That sort of isn't true. The round can be too powerful leading the bullet to pass straight through the body so a belly shot can be non lethal. Meanwhile the smaller round tends to bounce around the body increasing the chance to hit a vital spot increasing the chance of a kill.
@f1r3hunt3rz5
@f1r3hunt3rz5 2 жыл бұрын
@@orlock20 That kinds of become of a moot point, considering that to even talk about the effects of the bullet on the target, the shot must first able to REACH the target. In Afghanistan, the 5.56 is proven to be inadequate as the opposition simply outranges the US troops (wielding mainly 5.56-chambered weapons) with their older but heavier caliber weapons. As a result, US troops become too heavily dependent on marksmen or air support, as they are useless and helpless with only their rifles. So a heavier round like 7.62 NATO definitely is much better.
@newdefsys
@newdefsys 2 жыл бұрын
There are many people that no longer walk this earth because they were shot by a 5.56mm
@orlock20
@orlock20 2 жыл бұрын
@@f1r3hunt3rz5 The average rifle combat for the U.S. is about 300 yards. When U.S. troops are shooting at somebody 1,000 yards away, they are just trying to please high command. Meanwhile the guys with the AKs are doing the same.
@DK-gy7ll
@DK-gy7ll 2 жыл бұрын
@@f1r3hunt3rz5 The problem is that Afghanistan proved to be a completely different combat environment than Vietnam, where the ranges were often very short and the firefights very intense. It merely proves that there is no such thing as a "one size fits all" solution to the infantry rifle question.
@richardseys6594
@richardseys6594 2 жыл бұрын
south East Virginia military everywhere sells the round in the stores but lists it as a vermin round not to be use on anything larger than a fox or medium sized dog
@theduke7539
@theduke7539 2 жыл бұрын
Against an unarmored target, the 5.56 round is more than effective and even some light armor can be defeated by steel core 5.56. Where it fails is medium and heavy body armor which is beyond the maximum potential energy the 5.56 can generate. But up until 15 years ago, this was never an issue, as body armor actually capable of stopping 5.56 were limited to a handful of militaries and special response police forces and extraordinarily expensive civilian vests that were not widely produced. It wasn't until the Syrian Civil War that US forces came against an enemy that used body armor of any kind as standard issue and even with the disadvantage, they were still able to overcome that shortfall and win with minimal casualties.
@lapatriot9268
@lapatriot9268 2 жыл бұрын
I could build a house with the cost of the ammo expended in this video. Nice!
@Mike_Collins392
@Mike_Collins392 2 жыл бұрын
Through a stone or a tree , nothing is safe from a 7.62 x 63
@ocdropzoner
@ocdropzoner 2 жыл бұрын
7.62x63 hasn't been issued since Korea, they were discussing the merits of 7.62x51, that being said too bad they still didn't use 30.06
@redtra236
@redtra236 2 жыл бұрын
@@ocdropzoner The .30-06 was used into the 1960's in some degree
@krisgreenwood5173
@krisgreenwood5173 2 жыл бұрын
Say what you want, I wouldn't want to be on the receiving end of a 62 grain 5.56 under 500 yards lauched out of a 20" barrel rifle. The 77 grain 5.56 would be worse. No, I wouldn't want to be on the receiving end of them either.
@mrjockt
@mrjockt 2 жыл бұрын
The 7.62mm NATO round wasn’t adopted because it was the best available at the time, it was adopted because the U.S. delegation at the NATO standardisation conference in the early ‘50s refused point blank to consider any round less powerful than the then standard U.S. 30-06, both the U.K. and Belgium had developed weapons to fire a new 7mm short round, similar to the German 7.92 Kurtz used in the StG44, which would have given NATO a so called “intermediate” round long before 5.56 appeared on the scene.
@patrickgriffitt6551
@patrickgriffitt6551 5 ай бұрын
Not that it matters but 30-06 is marginally more powerful than 308. 7.62x63 vs 7.62x51 if you like metric.
@georgethompson5459
@georgethompson5459 2 жыл бұрын
The 5.56 is a smaller round and used in the M-16, the 7.62 round is larger and used in machine guns like the M-60.
@user-yr1cs1pw6h
@user-yr1cs1pw6h 2 жыл бұрын
That actually is the question I have. Why machine gun rounds are different than assault rifle rounds?
@lasagnakob9908
@lasagnakob9908 2 жыл бұрын
@@user-yr1cs1pw6h In NATO service, many rifles can be reconfigured for use as an automatic support weapon, which means using 5.56x45 cartridge. Though a few support machine guns can also fire 5.56 naturally.
@user-yr1cs1pw6h
@user-yr1cs1pw6h 2 жыл бұрын
@@lasagnakob9908 well that's good. What I ment is one type of bullet could be mass produced. & In the heat of battle, soldiers could just take Ammo from the machine gun belt.
@andrewwest4427
@andrewwest4427 2 жыл бұрын
@@user-yr1cs1pw6h a few reasons really. Weight is a huge one, troops can carry almost twice as much ammo with the 5.56. In my team everybody helped carry the 7.62 ammo. 5.56 is simply lighter, flies flatter, barely any recoil/easily controllable on full auto, and does it's job. The 7.62 is nice for when it's a further target like a sniper which is why usually a team has a designated sharpshooter with the 7.62. Also works better for barriers and shock effect, but machine guns are carried in both calibers as it's main function is suppression. So 5.56 is good and deadly close, easy to handle, can carry more ammo, and anyone can handle and control it's recoil. 7.62 is nice when you have to reach out further to touch someone without throwing thousand of rounds to do it, and when it does it hits it's target harder.
@shane99ca
@shane99ca 2 жыл бұрын
@@user-yr1cs1pw6h Because they're expected to be effective at greater ranges and do greater damage. GPMGs are also heavier, usually fired from bipods or pintle mounts, and recoil is less of a concern with them. But they are clumsy for close work and gunners laden down with weight of course move slower, limiting the speed of the entire squad.
@thomasheer825
@thomasheer825 2 жыл бұрын
Sorry the 5.56, as it is a hot load .223 which is classified as a small game round, is not that great of round for a man sized target. In fact many states prohibit it in hunting for larger game, deer for example, as it isn't lethal enough to take down. The 7.62 NATO round is a Winchester .308 with a hot load. Yes it is heavier and has a kick, but it is very accurate at range and has the sufficient knockdown to get the job done. The concern about recoil would only be a issue in rock and roll, the M14 is a good example. In single shot the M14 makes the M16 look like a toy but in rock and roll you can hold the M16 somewhat on target while the M14 will climb like a F16 of After Burner. The difference is that M14 has the range and accuracy to not need full auto. Have fired both over the years, and didn't require to carry either in the military but have had the opportunity to fire them at ranges. The civilian versions of the M14, no auto, are quite accurate and can be held on target without issue in rapid single fire. So actually the military auto mode is useless. The civilian AR15's have the same issues as the military units, lack of knockdown and their massive issue of misfire due to contamination. If they are in a hospital environment they don't malfunction, but in a dirty dusty environment they WILL misfire. We would do better to simply remove the auto and 3 shot burst and reissue the M14. Yes you have a heaver weigh per round, but you don't have to put as much down range to accomplish the mission.
@davidr1676
@davidr1676 2 жыл бұрын
.308 is a hotter load than 7.62 NATO. It's the opposite idea with the .223 vs 5.56. I used to have an FAL and loved it to death. With the goofy mount and scope and fully loaded it was not light but weight was nothing to me in those days. Sometimes I carried a second rifle, shotgun, or just a sidearm. Nice thing with that mount was I could quickly look at my iron sights for anything closer in. Virtually no recoil either or maybe I was just use to it.
@ccfmfg
@ccfmfg 2 жыл бұрын
All Special Operation Soldiers get Specific Training on the proper and effective way to shoot all the 7.62 x 51mm Rifles such as the M14,G3,FAL and SR-25 Carbines etc. on Full Auto. The Defense Dept. just won't spend the money to Train everyone that way.
@thomasheer825
@thomasheer825 2 жыл бұрын
@@davidr1676 Presently have several surplus Spanish Mausers chambered in 7.62 NATO a old bolt action Mousen Negat and a old single shot 45-70 and of all of them the only one with much recoil is the 45-70 and it isn't all that much. Have numerous black powder firearms and they have a sometimes healthy push, not a kick, so you move some but you actually don't feel a thing.
@jessebianchi2631
@jessebianchi2631 2 жыл бұрын
@@thomasheer825 i have a decent collection of BP stuff and some more modern rifles, pistols and shotguns. an AR platform isn't in my collection and unlikely to be for the reasons you mention. i view that thing as an answer to a question i'd never ask.
@denisdegamon8224
@denisdegamon8224 2 жыл бұрын
@@thomasheer825 that until you try and shoot 100 rounds, thrn that 4570 becomes quite punishing. I am not recoil shy, but I have shot many black powder competitions and can tell you long strings of 500 us grain 4570 rounds will bruise the hell out of you.
@RichKosack
@RichKosack 2 жыл бұрын
I remember my drill sergeants claiming that the 5.56mm round was not really designed to be as lethal and the 7.62, but to disable the enemy combatant, who might need to be assisted by comrades instead of shooting at me.
@patrickgriffitt6551
@patrickgriffitt6551 5 ай бұрын
Yes. It's called attrition. You don't necessarily have to kill an enemy to take him and possibly one or two of his comrades out of the battle.
@sebastienloyer9471
@sebastienloyer9471 2 жыл бұрын
0.50 cal Best ,beat those. 2
@jimwilliams8934
@jimwilliams8934 2 жыл бұрын
I love the 50 cal ma Duce an excellent weapon designed eighty years ago and still going strong 💪🇺🇸
@Jwilliamstech
@Jwilliamstech 2 жыл бұрын
Seeing all that Ammo gave me a semi-woody! Damn I’d love to have that stock pile of ammo!
@at6686
@at6686 2 жыл бұрын
Democrat gets elected. Ammo disappears.
@johncaputo5538
@johncaputo5538 2 жыл бұрын
@@at6686 Republican gets elected, democracy disappears. Which is worse?
@at6686
@at6686 2 жыл бұрын
@@johncaputo5538 You watch too much msnbc. Democrats get elected and they flood the country with poor, uneducated peasants and promise them freebies and an amnesty so they’ll vote for them. This is a far greater threat to democracy than requiring an ID to vote.
@Evocati-Augusti
@Evocati-Augusti 2 жыл бұрын
The British in theatre, during a firefight every 20 minutes you'd hear"FN yank bullets" and they set up Eugene Stoner when he first introduced way before Vietnam, the brass didn't like the smaller bullet and had the test in Alsoka under unbelievable conditions, set to fail. that's what AR means Arimlite Rifles..not assault Rifles, Eugene Stoner invented Armalite Rifles, AR 10s 14,15s the M60 Stoner.
@rustyjohnson9558
@rustyjohnson9558 2 жыл бұрын
Hope you were not driving .....you are all over the road and into the guardrail.
@hughtanner208
@hughtanner208 2 жыл бұрын
Interesting in light of the apparent migration on the new SIG to 6.8
@factsnotfeelingssendit5961
@factsnotfeelingssendit5961 2 жыл бұрын
Don't forget the military doesn't want every enemy shot to die. One shot one kill = one combatant out of the fight. Wound one and you take 2 or 3 out of being offensive removing the casualty, assuming you have a enemy that administers medical help. War is hell
@luvr381
@luvr381 2 жыл бұрын
The Russians have always been masters of small arms, and they adopted the similar 5.45mm rounds, so they can't be that bad.
@AlexKarasev
@AlexKarasev 4 ай бұрын
Actually the 5.45 is exactly the same caliber as 5.56 - it's just one is measured by the lands and the other by the grooves. But with growing distances and personal protection, now both countries are walking back to 6mm-something next generation cartridges.
@46bovine
@46bovine 2 жыл бұрын
How about the 7.62x63mm round? Oh, That's the famous .30-06.
@marksmith7054
@marksmith7054 2 жыл бұрын
no thats the flat shooting 308
@wildturkey5838
@wildturkey5838 2 жыл бұрын
.30-'06 is 7.62×63mm in metric; .308 is 7.62x51mm I carried M-1 in ROTC, M-14 at Summer camp, M-16 on active duty. 5.56's lighter weight meant we could send lots of bullets downrange in the jungle, but now that we're in the desert we need something with more range.
@grim6980
@grim6980 2 жыл бұрын
While mostly true there is more to it than that. In Vietnam, they found the 7.62 and the main battle weapon ill-suited. The AR-15 with the 5.56 worked much better at the ranges they were fighting at. Up until then, a general in DC tried to set his legacy by pushing for the 7.62 in spite of what was needed in the field. Like the General who backed the all purpose cammo that made everyone stand out.
@kenmvilla
@kenmvilla 2 жыл бұрын
Well, they're moving to the 6.8mm now, because of the problems engaging at distances they saw in Afghanistan. They found out they need a round that is more effective at longer distances while still being reasonably similar in man portability as the 5.56/7.62. And yes - the US military uses both 5.56x45mm and 7.62x51mm currently... not one and not the other.
@findingneutral426
@findingneutral426 Жыл бұрын
Lots of complaints on 5.56 of recent years (Iraq and Afghan). 5.56 modelled on the 223, the 223 isn’t particularly well loved even as a hunting calibre for its lack of stopping power. .308 (7.62) is generally preferred for bigger stuff, which says it all really. 5.56 is not as good over range but less kick and easier for the average Joe to shoot for sure. I prefer 6.5 creed
@lurebenson7722
@lurebenson7722 5 ай бұрын
If the 5.56x45 the military term for 223 doesn't kill people, then where have you been not seeing all the dead people in the US in these shootings in schools and malls - time to stop all of the Bull shit parrot mouth talking lies
@ut000bs
@ut000bs 2 жыл бұрын
Shit. Give me a BAR.
@Biden_is_demented
@Biden_is_demented 2 жыл бұрын
Cocktail BAR? Or Shisha BAR? How about a nice irish PUB? Or a Tapas Cafeé??
@ut000bs
@ut000bs 2 жыл бұрын
@@Biden_is_demented you say the letters, B-A-R. Look it up.
@Biden_is_demented
@Biden_is_demented 2 жыл бұрын
@@ut000bs It was a joke, look it up.
@ut000bs
@ut000bs 2 жыл бұрын
@@Biden_is_demented sorry about that. Your reply makes it appear you didn't know what a BAR is.
@Biden_is_demented
@Biden_is_demented 2 жыл бұрын
@@ut000bs No problem, mate. I think the whole pandemic/lockdown has everybody on edge. I think we all need a trip to a bar. :)
@ICEMAN-fp9zn
@ICEMAN-fp9zn 2 жыл бұрын
"Winning of hearts and minds" 😇
@SUPERFLUID88
@SUPERFLUID88 5 ай бұрын
5.56 is a super bullet travelling at 3 times the speed of sound
@craigross341
@craigross341 2 жыл бұрын
The difference at the muzzle is a very different thing from energy at 500m. The difference at the muzzle is twice, but at 500m it's more than three times. The 5.56 really, really sheds velocity.
@hellfire0352
@hellfire0352 Жыл бұрын
What? Can you elaborate please? You seem to be interchanging velocity and energy
@patrickgriffitt6551
@patrickgriffitt6551 5 ай бұрын
​@@hellfire0352with loss of velocity there is also loss of energy. They are generally codependent.
@elessartelcontar9415
@elessartelcontar9415 5 ай бұрын
Very few shots are at 500 yards. Almost all shots in combat are under 300 yards where the 7.62 has a higher velocity in a heavier bullet and thus obviously higher killing power.
@marcelogartner9450
@marcelogartner9450 2 жыл бұрын
Always a question of money,lightness and politics. Nothing to do with stopping power,all around use or long range accuracy. Why not use submachine guns in 9mm? Even cheaper,lighter and smaller weapons...
@chrismohn9249
@chrismohn9249 2 жыл бұрын
It was bout the weight, soldiers carry 20kg of ammunition and the 556 over 762 is like 50% increase in rounds carried.
@TH-mn6rf
@TH-mn6rf 4 ай бұрын
I am very curious about what the move they are doing at 5:52.
@gascheck8151
@gascheck8151 2 жыл бұрын
This video leaves out a lot of historical data and is not a accurate account of this round.
@ccfmfg
@ccfmfg 2 жыл бұрын
I agree.
@georgemacdonell2341
@georgemacdonell2341 2 жыл бұрын
Little zippers at 3250 fps, 55gr, do a lot of hydroshock damage. But 7.62 goes in a straighter line through brush, plus better penetration.
@marcs990
@marcs990 2 жыл бұрын
@@georgemacdonell2341 agree the 5.56s thing is velocity & the fact it minces ur insides once it hits a human. The 7.62 will go thru but that’s not a good thing unless u hit a vital spot. 5.56 is an awesome general battle round, I’m ex British Army JTAC & seen many times how effective it actually is.
@petermgruhn
@petermgruhn 2 жыл бұрын
You are too generous.
@cbwelch4
@cbwelch4 2 жыл бұрын
5.56 doesn’t have enough energy downrange. There are more effective intermediate calibers. 6.8 Grendel or SPC, 6.5 Creedmore, which retains energy very well. 5.56 is subpar in short barreled carbines. It is fun to shoot at the range, but not ideal for stopping humans doing bad things.
@lurebenson7722
@lurebenson7722 5 ай бұрын
Tell that to all the people shot and killed in malls and schools the 5.56x45 doesn't kill people..
@fredhaferkamp7224
@fredhaferkamp7224 5 ай бұрын
I recently talked with an active duty army infantry sgt. He said they used the 762mm round re in the M14
@williambuchanan77
@williambuchanan77 5 ай бұрын
It doesn't really matter what size the ammo is, if they're coming at you with that pop you know they're gonna hurt if you're hit.
@waltobringer2928
@waltobringer2928 2 жыл бұрын
When I was in the Army both sizes of ammo were used. The 5.56 mm round was a tumbling round and ricocheted around inside of the body causing truly impressive injuries!
@douglasscovil3447
@douglasscovil3447 Жыл бұрын
absolutely true, but in vietnam 5.56 was stopped by only moderately sized trees, while 7.62 would go right through the trees. the 7.62 had more killing, wounding, penetrating and crushing power than the 5.56.
@graveltheblock5578
@graveltheblock5578 2 жыл бұрын
5.56 has better wounding potential, and is more suited for light arms auto fire. 7.62 packs a bigger punch, with stronger recoil not suited foe light small arms (which is why the FAL sucked at auto) but is still used in DMRs, BRs, LMGs, and possibly some Sniper Rifles. There. Answer in a few seconds.
@samuelmcbride
@samuelmcbride 2 жыл бұрын
Well, if they focused on 1 round format, it would be cheaper. It was based on weight. Pure and simple. You can ship more 5.56 ammo than 7.62 for the same amount of money.
@williamneil8862
@williamneil8862 2 жыл бұрын
Gee, I'm glad we cleared that up. Not recommended for clarity in Freshman English classes.
@hogwash9140
@hogwash9140 2 жыл бұрын
Having used the 7.62 for almost half of my service and the 5.56 for the rest, stopping power is the main thing that divides the two. I've seen webbing stop the smaller round.
@shane99ca
@shane99ca 2 жыл бұрын
And range. In the mountains of Afghanistan, Americans armed with M4s found enemies more than 300 m away to be basically immune to their fire. Whereas the enemy, shooting .30-calibre AK-47s and even Mosin-Nagant battle rifles, could fire back with impunity. The .30-calibre battle rifles from the turn of the last century were designed to be lethal out to 2,000 m. The .223? Designed to be lethal to hamsters. American troops ended up using Javelin missiles, at $50,000 a pop, to take out distant targets. $50 K would buy a lot of 7.62-mm ball.
@GrySgtBubba
@GrySgtBubba 2 жыл бұрын
Yup. Personally, I'll gladly take the added weight for the capability! I've seen targets still fighting after several center-mass shots with 556...but after one or two 762 to the chest...yeah, they don't tend to get back up. Then the range and barrier pen is just far superior to 556. I'll take the weight and confidence!
@rad_lad_2715
@rad_lad_2715 2 жыл бұрын
@@shane99ca the max effective range of an M4 is 500 meters. An AKM is 350. American soldiers were not getting out-distanced by insurgents with AK's. Medium and heavy machine guns sure, but if you can't hit them with an M4 they aren't hitting you with an AK.
@shane99ca
@shane99ca 2 жыл бұрын
@@rad_lad_2715 What about a Mosin-Nagant? That’s good for a thousand or two. Also, those weapons’ effective ranges are due to different limitations. The AK is not that accurate but it still packs plenty of freight at 350 m. The M4 may be accurate enough to hit at 500 but it’s not likely to drop a motivated Taliban warrior. At that range, the .223 is basically a .22.
@rad_lad_2715
@rad_lad_2715 2 жыл бұрын
@@shane99ca a mosin could definitely touch out but my point was that no US soldier was getting engaged by AK fire while being unable to engage with an M4 because of range Also the fragmentation velocity of 5.56 is about 2600 m/sec. At 500m that's about the speed 5.56 is travelling so it's doesn't matter how motivated and insurgent is, on impact the round will yaw and fragment. No one shakes off a 5.56 in the effective range, that's why it's called effective range.
@EnlightenedTurtle
@EnlightenedTurtle 2 жыл бұрын
Incapacitating rounds with less recoil and lighter weapons.
@ElectricPhantasmagoria
@ElectricPhantasmagoria 2 жыл бұрын
In a combat zone a higher volume of accurate rounds trumps lesser volume of more powerful rounds. What’s more reassuring between these two options? A .308 that can punch through walls easily but you have less and can be left without any way to fire if out of ammo or a lot more somewhat less powerful rounds you can use longer without being defenseless? Soldiers can also be more nimble with less of a load. Ounces equal pounds and pounds equal pain.
@antoniograncino3506
@antoniograncino3506 3 ай бұрын
I'm guessing the rollover maneuver at 5:52 is practice for quickly removing a wounded (or dead) comrade from firing position so firing can continue.
@anthonyrichard461
@anthonyrichard461 2 жыл бұрын
Bogus information. Video shows mostly shooting 7.62x51
@baminibaum1301
@baminibaum1301 2 жыл бұрын
This is not accurate information. The M-16 was adapted for the Vietnam War because it was lighter and smaller and used the 5.56 MM. The smaller weapon was adapted because the M-14 7.62 MM was to big and bulky for the smaller Vietnamese soldier.
@red9man2130
@red9man2130 2 жыл бұрын
that is only PART of the story. The U.S. army at letterman Hospital did wound research ( Dr. Martin Fackler) and concluded the 5.56 was more lethal with greater wounding capability than 7.62 NATO.
@oddshot60
@oddshot60 2 жыл бұрын
The M-16 was also easier to control in full auto than the M-14. Not that I liked it. I hated the damn thing when they gave me one back in 1970. 50 years and billions of dollars in development later and now it's America's Rifle. Given a choice I would have picked the 7.62 AR-10 and more/better marksmanship training.
@richardkluesek4301
@richardkluesek4301 2 жыл бұрын
@@oddshot60 I had one in '71 and now own a commercial "modern sporting rifle" civilian carbine length system with adjustable stock. Same lower receivers except for full auto settings on the GI gun but differences in every other comparison of components, all for the better. More manufacturers doing research and development for the contracts, competition is beneficial. The M4 is an enhanced evolution of the original M16. If AR10 had been chosen 50 years ago it too would have been improved over its service life.
@oddshot60
@oddshot60 2 жыл бұрын
@@richardkluesek4301 I love military rifles and have been collecting them for 30+ years. When the time came to fill the hole for the M-16 ... I couldn't afford the real deal. So I bought a Colt M-16 upper from SARCO in NJ, and put it on some semi auto lower. I dressed it up in A1 furniture, I have ammo, I have mags and in 25 years of owning it, I have NEVER shot the damned thing. It's just a wall hanger.
@richardkluesek4301
@richardkluesek4301 2 жыл бұрын
@@oddshot60 I'm more of a pistolero but do have modern sporting rifles with iron sights. And also feel bad about not yet having shot all the pieces I've accumulated, its on the bucket list but the ammo is too scarce to friviously burn up. Will resume training intensely when its more available and affordable. I hope not that we will have serious need of these because than the gas, groceries, air conditioning, utilities, water will be shut off, every man for himself in a great macho militia madd maxx adventure escaping from LA and NYC. The fudds have no idea of what that would be like.
@philvandenbelt6910
@philvandenbelt6910 2 жыл бұрын
no has mentioned the studies that say that one fatal round takes one man off the field. But one injured man from a smaller round takes 3 men off the field. Him and two to assist him
@marksummers463
@marksummers463 2 жыл бұрын
Good vid. BTW: It's 7.62 millimeter (no "s") bullet. When 2 nouns are put together, the first becomes an adjective & adjectives in such cases are almost never plural.
@johnzielinski6144
@johnzielinski6144 2 жыл бұрын
Wait till the 6.5 grendel takes over, were slowly moving that towards that round
@ahorsewithnoname643
@ahorsewithnoname643 2 жыл бұрын
We still have to get through the 6.8 mm round first. That might mean 2080/2090 for 6.5 mm.
@duanepigden1337
@duanepigden1337 2 жыл бұрын
USA is finally figuring out that 5.56 is not a good round.
@petedetraglia4776
@petedetraglia4776 2 жыл бұрын
@@ahorsewithnoname643 by then we will be using lasers...LMAO
@billrhodes5603
@billrhodes5603 2 жыл бұрын
@@duanepigden1337 It's so poor the Russians copied it and made even less powerful. Then equipped their infantry with it.
@alanocarlossur9440
@alanocarlossur9440 2 жыл бұрын
Most armies in this world that design and build their own rifles use a similar sized round.
@dbrady1966
@dbrady1966 2 жыл бұрын
5.56 is called a NATO round. This dream of 6.8mm is a dream that our allies will not convert to
@bdr32965
@bdr32965 4 ай бұрын
When I was in basic training back in the 80's, one of my Drill Sergeants said that the 5.56x45 can be quite a devastating round and it can kill, but the primary purpose of the round is to incapacitate enemy troops and tie the enemy up dealing with their wounded. I don't know if that was just his opinion, but I have hunted deer with 5.56 ammo and the amount of damage the round does after hitting soft tissue is rather gruesome once it starts tumbling and fragmenting inside the body.
@LWRC
@LWRC 4 ай бұрын
This video is out of date - 11 months ago, one of the military channels just announced the US going to switch from 5.56 to 6.8x51 ammo for its infantry weapon as well as SAW! That seems like a big jump for additional weight the soilders must carry for gains that may only matter in a small percentage of time over the current 5.56 NATO round.
@Evocati-Augusti
@Evocati-Augusti 2 жыл бұрын
USAF SF are Airforce infantry when deployed...and more..
@carlruffier7947
@carlruffier7947 2 жыл бұрын
6.5 mm Grendal would have been the best choice it stays supersonic at 1300 meters and rivals the 7.62 x 51 with that said the most impressive weapon I ever encountered in the military was the M60 machine gun. So impressive they either destroyed them or put them in a bunker until the end of time.
@TerryCheever
@TerryCheever 6 ай бұрын
After shooting the 5.56 for 20 years in the military, I chose 7.62 in my civilian after life and have 7.62x35, x39, x51, and x63. I don't use any 5.56 anymore, but it's not useless, I just don't respect it.
@roberthunter6927
@roberthunter6927 4 ай бұрын
The reason for the 5.56mm cartridge is simple: US armed forces have absolutely no fire discipline. That is why the 7.62mm is a burden for their logistics. The Belgian FN-FAL 7.62mm was a superb weapon. With a shorter barrel and a folding stock, it was an assault rifle. With a heavier barrel, 30 mag round, and the full auto option, it was a squad/section machine gun. In standard configuration with a telescope, sight it was a reasonable sniper rifle. Not the best, obviously, but good enough. The US government forced the M-16 onto its troops during combat in the Vietnam war. It was an unreliable dog for years afterwards. The early M-16s were OK on the range in peacetime, well sometimes, if kept spotlessly clean. The action and barrel were not corrosion resistant in the early models, so a few minutes under combat conditions [dust, rain, mud, etc], and they jammed, or double-fed, partly because troops panicked and almost always used full auto in a meeting engagement. The thin, cheap, plastic stock deteriorated in the sun, and if you looked at it sideways, it shattered. In a battle, you can't call "time-out" to use the pull-though or do a field strip, clean, and assemble, and yet this was exactly what this weapon required, if you had a hope of using it for more than as a stick that holds a bayonet. In contrast, depending on where it was made [some models had chromed actions and barrels], the AK-47 was reliable and cheap. It tolerated a LOT of punishment, and often still functioned when very dirty. It was less accurate than the M-16, or Belgian FN, and had a selector switch that would wake the dead. But at medium ranges, it had good knock-down power, although the FN-FAL with the NATO cartridge was even better. In contrast, the M-16 would often take at least two or three shots to bring an enemy down, and often, troopers would have to empty a 20-round mag on full auto to put someone down and keep them there. And on full auto, the light M-16 was probably had the worst accuracy of the three. Sub-machine guns are usually inaccurate, because they operate on blow-back, and do not have mass to make the platform stable. That is why all good machine guns have at least a bipod. The M-60 was also a dog because ammo was fed by a naked belt in the infantry role. A box magazine of 50 or a 100 rounds would have helped it enormously. The disintegrating chain-link system was fine in an aircraft or vehicle, because the ammo belts were protected. Chain or "gatling -gun" guns notwithstanding, an automatic weapon should only fire 3-5 rounds at a time, and certainly not without a bi-pod, a heavier barrel, and a reasonable sized magazine, depending on role/mission/environment. So say you have a personal load of 300 M-16 rounds in 15, 20 round mags, and use full-auto. The vast majority of those rounds are going to kill bushes or make pretty incendiary patterns in the sky. 200 rounds of 7.62mm in 10 mags, using semi-auto aimed shots is not only going to kill or wound more enemy, but keep their heads down too, so there's that. That is what a SAW is for: suppress enemy fire, and engage troop concentrations. You pick off those who have survived the SAW fire with rifles and aimed shots.
@marcusanton95
@marcusanton95 3 ай бұрын
Sure buddy, we'll just go and pout because you said mean things about us. Whatever, you fall without us that's how your story ends. All this crying over held-up weapons by the U.S. politicians while Europe sends ungodly amounts shows the world Europe can not be effective without those same undisciplined American Soldiers. Why do European leaders say Ukraine will fall without U.S. support. If you're so great do it your damn selves, as we have our own issues to deal with. Otherwise, be thankful, and honest and we will continue to assist Europe.
@roberthunter6927
@roberthunter6927 3 ай бұрын
@@marcusanton95 Not pouting buttercup. And WTF is all this about ME "crying" about weapons to Ukraine? I didn't even mention anything about that in my post. . but Ok, go raving about things I didn't comment on. Good job, deluded one. Europe can survive without the US. All the supposed US military "experts" said that Ukraine would fold in a few weeks when Russia invaded, and now it is nearly two years since Putin invaded.
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