So Haier Europe threatened an open source software/plugin developer (Andre Basche), then did a 180 but never bothered to actually apologize for their outright arrogant and respectless behavior ??? My response would be : KEEP BOYCOTTING HAIER EU !!!

Thanks for highlighting this issue Lewis. The sooner "smart" product companies realise that just because they supply a useful device doesn't give them free access to our wallets the better!

i may be one of the first but my dishwasher packed in and i actively choose another manufacturer purely due to this

Is anyone maintaining, like, a Google Sheets spreadsheet with a “Never Buy Anything from these Companies No Matter What” list for companies like Haier and Chamberlain? Because as of now, I won’t ever touch these companies.

Haier brands in Europe are Haier (Mainly refrigeration), Candy (Italian) and Hoover. Now you know.......

Just like you said, Haier made the choice to require "their" products to use AWS. Haier could enable a local API or sale a hub product for those of us wanting local control. The problem with that is it means once they shutdown the servers your AC won't lose the functionality you bought and paid for. They can't have that; if there's no reason for you to buy a new appliance you'll just keep using the one you already OWN.

Last year, we almost replaced all our kitchen appliances with Haier but in the end decided not to as we didn't see much point in that at the time but decided to postpone that... Now Haier is off the list!

I feel like the community should get together and put together a smart home standards doc with best practices such as local api and then we can push that onto companies when they act like this

I also would like to see more companies partner with Home Assistant to develop official integrations for their products. I appreciate Lewis for bringing this issue to attention.

This is a perfect case to highlight the importance of cloudless automation on both the part of the users and manufacturers. They want to hold their customers hostage by denying them use of all the features of a product the customer purchased unless they pay a subscription or are in some other way dependent on those companies--even if it means losing all functionality when the company gets bored of supporting "legacy" products. Planned obsolescence for the digital age and it not only wastes resources by forcing us to continuously buy new products, it is an egregious violation of the right of ownership. If the company does not want to allow modification of a device, they should lease it instead of selling it. As a renter, I would have to get permission from the landlord to modify my dwelling, but if I BUY a house, I can do as I please with it--it is no different with any other possession; Once I give up my money--a small representation of the time I spent working--that product is mine to do with as I see fit. Repo forked.

In generell I wish much more companies would work together with HA for official integrations.

We always bought Haier products until now. Both of our washer and tumble dryer are Haier products (Candy) and will soon be replaced by a company that will support open source.

Note to self.... Avoid "cloud based anything including "eco-systems" for Home Automation (and really almost everything else. Use only products (sensors and control points) that support MQTT (like Tasmota). Then we will all have global flexibility worst case. This, like Chamberlain, indicate what our future will be like. What if our Hue devices suddenly stopped working? It appears to be in the cards as a possibility.

Toyota did this too a while back for their home assistant integration, claimed it was 'stolen IP' which was ridiculous...

Fun fact: there's no easier way to find a good repository than by looking for a repository that received a takedown notice 😂😉

This just proves the point that these centralized smart device servers are not for "quality of service" or "minimizing downtime" for the customers. Using these cloud devices how you would think is intended is not sustainable for these companies. It's all about data collection and subscriptions for basically no benefits.

Thanks Lewis... As electrician and smart home integrator, you cannot imagine how many problems customers have from "closed" ecosystems. They get trapped. I think this issue needs to be regulated from goverments and force companies to open their API's for the benefit of the customers.

Please don't apologize for covering this stuff. I'm so glad you are doing this. Perhaps manufacturers will start listening to these requests for local control, dropping their ideas of nickel and diming us for access to our own appliances!

1:48 "I hope to get an answer and until then I'll leave the repos online." This guy gets an immediate C&D from a major company and says, "nah, I'll wait."

AWS fees can indeed be high. Here is a good solution for that ..... don't use AWS. Even if you have to use cloud for some reason, there are many smaller/local* companies offer those services for far lower fees compared to AWS. I say smaller, but I mean compared to amazon. many of those cloud companies still turn around dozens if not hundreds of millions in revenue annually and offer high quality services, local support, etc etc.

Now if MyEnergi could hear that and implement a local API, I'd be thrilled. Really sucks to see all this cool hardware crippled by a cloud dependency, we can only hope the EU will regulate on this in the future

Haier probably wanted to make a Home Assistant integration themselves, found Andre's, got big mad that someone had beat them to it and was giving it away for the low low price of free.99 Haier can't make money off a subscription model for a Home Assistant integration if there is already one that is out there for free.

It not just the smarthome issue. Hotpoint for example used to be a British brand, and had a fairly British way of supporting products. Now that they are American / Chinese, the service is typically aggressive American. You don’t actually call their support, you have to call a company that is actually trying to sell you an insurance product. They were very threatening and tried to scare my wife into buying a product even though our washing machine was well within warranty. Despite us getting large discounts on their products, we will never buy their brands again.

Those examples are everywhere now. For example my Vaillant 200€ internet connected appliance was blocked by its serial number with the cloud account and now they are not answering any emails and etc. That's why home-assistant and open-source will win.

Thanks for being a BIG Cog in the wheel to help "us" moving forward. Your the "Man"! And major thanks to Andre' Basche for his time building the interface for HA.

I built myself an automated backup solution for my favorite repos that checks daily and pulls down updates to my local storage. You never know when one will disappear these days. Added this one to my list even though I don't use it personally.

It amazes me, one of the first things i do before buying a product is see what connectivity to home assistant a product has, if it ain't got it I aint buying it.

I appreciate that it sounds like the fictional tale - but I am someone who briefly looked at their appliances last week, thought the name was familiar and then walked away from them. First time home buyer who is moving in April - I'll be spending thousands on new appliances and will be checking how easily they integrate with HA, or at the very least not buy from anyone who rips away the functionality and employs threats like this

I must admit, it's not a big appliance but look how Sonoff has handled the issue with closed api's. They give an alternative. Will make it easy for you to flash our devices, but support the DIY approach.

Thanks for putting spotlight on this story! Eventually there will be normalized by applience brands to make sure local API’s are available. I believe that few actually utilize the information stored in the cloud to iterate and improve their products. Looking at Daikin, for example, only expose a subset of sensor values via cloud but all available via the physical device etc. Would help a lot with optimization and troubleshooting for service peeps or advanced end users.

I think that there are a couple of reasons why companies don't offer local control as a standard 1. They want you to buy into only their ecosystem, hence why many companies offer their own hubs which are in many cases entirely redundant, since their products use well known communications standards. I'm thinking of the likes of Philips Hue and Zigbee, I know there are others that use Zigbee but still try to force you to buy their hub too... 2. Control. Through their proprietary interfaces, they have control of what you can and cannot do with their appliances. If that is devolved to local control, they lose out on things that they can potentially charge for down the line The other thing I'll say is that the DCMA takedown process is ridiculously weighted in favour of the corporation over the little guy (but then I guess pretty much any legal procedure is automatically weighted in favour of the entity with the most money). There should be at least some burden of proof on the company to show that the HA integration is harmful to the equipment, or at least some cost analysis of what they think it's costing them, or something that is proof for whatever reason they're giving for the takedown. "But think of the shareholders!" should not be sufficient grounds for a takedown "request"...

Ah yes, damn you Streisand Effect, huh? But yeah, I thought the exact same thing. Saying that this increased their AWS cost because the API makes AWS cost... for something that a user tried to make into a local function. I hope this ends up being a lesson that other manufacturers learn something from.

You hit the nail right on the head, "local API" I wont buy or use any smart device that needs the internet to work.

GE sold GE Appliances to Haier in about 2016, for those unaware.

if a C&D does not come with a brief, then you can usually ignore it. it takes a few seconds to make a C&D letter from a template that the law firm can blast out, but if they prepare a brief it means they've already spent money on it and they are ready to file. Hell, a C&D isn't even a legal thing for the most part. anyone can send anyone a letter saying "stop that" and making vague legal threats like "stop that or i will sue you"

I always find it strange that a companies first response is heavy handed, they should have contacted him and asked for him to work there. As Home Assistant users, we see the benefits of integrating as many products as possible. As a community we stand together and it was wonderful to hear how he has stood up to them and the support of our community behind him.

First I love the way you say Chamberlain. It sounds like you are saying ChamberLAME. I love it. Secondly, and more to the point of your message. If it is costing them move in AWS fees, yes, by all means make it local. But on the other hand, if it's a significant enough increase in cost, just think what it;s going to feel like when you alienate that entire group of customers. It's evidently a significant part of your income stream since it's impacting your profits so do you really want to piss them off.

Thanks for sharing. I don't believe that these companies want their systems to run more than 5 years like in the good old days.

Was that a bit of sarcasm I heard in there? 🤣 Thanks for the video Lewis!❤

The fact they don't allow for local control just made my decision going forward as whether or not to buy their products.

New commenter to your channel. You raised a good point about how appliances will last decades, yet, API calls don't. They change versions. Personally, I wouldn't care. I don't need my appliances to "call home" anyways, unless that appliance shuts itself off permanently because it CAN'T call home. That'd royally piss me off, and probably end up in court over it.

Remember that local api that requires internet access is also not a solution.

The funny thing is I was using this integration to fix the fact their machine smart functions don't actually work. The first machine would disconnect from wifi exactly 10 mins after the wash finished preventing me from spinning it when not home - 1yr no fix. The second doesn't remember the auto dose settings 1.5months no fix. Like others one of the draw to their machines was the smart home integration.

This also happened to Toyota integration :(

I was happy to fork the repo. And I will reconsider when having to buy a Haier device.

I buy all my connected appliances with one major criteria only if they can be integrated in Home Assistant.

Isn't there an old saying that goes like this: first they will ignore you, then they will ridicule you, then they will threaten you, and finally you will win. Rings a bell. ;-)

To play angel’s advocate, when they first deployed their APIs, they probably didn’t plan or create API specifications for local API. It does take developer hours to create and some PM probably didn’t bother keeping in because it allowed them to meet their budget. That said, if they wanted to decrease costs, sending recommendations to the dev on saving API calls would have been cheaper than simply threatening them with legal action

With a local box doing DNS, iptables DNAT, etc, it should be possible to bring “the cloud” into the home in a way that doesn’t need HA or device hacks.

Good analysed !!!

They could have also created a pull request with the desired optimizations. Thereby showing support and interest in the community and gaining positive press and support instead. But that doesn’t usually occur to close-minded, closed-source archaic companies.

This integration was using their servers, I completely disagree with their position on using the broken DMCA laws to take this down, however I always recommend using local integration, anything that hits someone else's server is bound to be broken at some point.

All those flavors and they chose salty. Why not send the guy an email with an offer to hire him or pay him to write better software for them? lmao they can certainly afford it with 32B in profits!

much appreciated doing this topic. 👍 i definitely know which appliances to avoid in the future.

I think the days of company's doing this are on the dwindle now as it only hurt them in the wallet in the long term Hair Us has got the right idea by making it open and helping the community as it works in their favor along with doing a lot of the work for them.

We need a Raspberry Pi open source local hub to such cloud companies. Raspberry to such companies Kudos to Andre Basche

Thanks for highlighting this. I will not be buying any Haier products in the future.

I would love to see them prove "Significant economic harm" in a court room.

Local API should be mandated for IoT devices. I've started snooping packets on my Flume, Eagle200 and other devices just in case they go out of business.

Their API, their product. If they are planning on bringing out or expanding their own subscription based version of this functionality it would make sense to shut down the open source version with a DMCA.

How are you able to keep straight face saying it was intended to be this way from the beginning, damn, you've got some real actor talent !

Thanks for sharing this..

Been using HA for years. I love smart stuff but that being said, some stuff doesn't need to be smart at all. Been fixing stuff for years and I can maintain old white goods for ages. Recently had an older Bosch fridge die and it wasn't economically feasible to fix it. Smart appliance repair parts are expensive and a lot of places don't even provide you parts lists these days. I'm as much in the "Right To Repair" camp as I am the "Open Source" camp. All this being said I can't picture myself buying any Haier stuff after the way they handled this. Finding a manufacturer who provides an illustrated parts breakdown or service manual is increasingly difficult these days.

I wish everyone would just follow Venstar's model. A simple UI with 2 options, turn off / on remote access for their bespoke paid for monitoring service. Turn off / on local API and just let the user decide. If you feel like tinkering and integrating to HA, go the local API route, and disable remote. Happy life. Are you someone that just wants to go the easy route, and don't mind paying for a monitoring service, activate the remote feature, login, and off you go. Why does it have to be EITHER/OR? One would argue that by allowing Local API you AVOID the AWS cost by giving those users a path that saves you all the bandwidth and API calls in the first place..

I'm liking your channel more and more !

Nice example where clearly legal hasn’t spoken with marketing 😂

Got a Haier washing machine recently (Unaware of this situation) and guess what, Their Own hOn app is not even working.... I can't launch washing programmes via the app and the support literallz said to wait for next version of the app that it MIGHT GET FIXED.... so Yeah ... Truly Amazing that they fight open source developers while their own solutions are not even working properly... If it wasn't out of return window I would send it back... absolutely gross from them do behave like this.

Other than the cost of the increased api calls the real loss is the decreased data they can mine and sell from using their app.

Never heard of the brand but will def be avoiding in the future, thanks

Chamberlain: !@#$% Haier: "Hold my beer."

I don't understand their logic.... By having a local only 3rd party HA addon, doesn't this reduce their costs and potentially boost sales (albeit to a relatively small, but growing community)? Like, if I'm out to buy a new appliance now, and smart anything is mentioned, I will buy it if it has decent HA local support, snd probably give it a hard pass if it requires rhe manufacturer cloudy crap. Id rather a dumb dishwasher than one that tells china when my cups are clean.

Well presented.

Haier??? Never heard of that company... Let's keep it that way.

Thanks and very helpful

Local API would have prevented this fully. They shot their own foot by requiring every single API call whether local to the home or not to go thru their "expensive" AWS proxy. Plus it's not a good look if the internet is down and you can't control your local devices.

Punishing smart, engaged customers. As another famous smart home youtuber says "Corporate Greeeeed"

This is actually good for us. The company that remains in the end is the reliable one. The companies that stay at the end are the trustworthy ones.

Obviously the best thing to do would be local control of the device, so it doesn't need the cloud at all. But a much simpler thing to do would be simply to document the API. If the HA integration is making excessive calls to the API, how should that be minimized? How should we authenticate? Etc.? Redoing the control system would be hard. Documenting the API should be easy.

In the reply email at 4:33 at the second bullet point they state that "opening our IOT infrastructure (we are aligned with Matter....". Shouldn't this indicate that some form of local API may be in the works? I think it is stupid what they did, and I'm sure they will not jump in full Matter immediately, but maybe all this bad press will give them a push to figure out the local Matter integration that everyone wants in the first place. If CES 2024 showed us anything, it's that companies are recognizing the communities desire for local control.

Haier Obviously didn't calculate for such a massive backlash, even after the Chamberlain example. It will lose them significant sales. Chamberlain probably won't even feel the effect of my personal protest - I was building a large shed when they pulled their stunt. I was going to use their gear on two massive roller doors, but went with a competitor instead. It is money they will never see. Similarly, Haier will be blacklisted by me and, unlike Chamberlain, there is a lot more competition in the space that they trade and plenty of alternatives for consumers.

yeah i have been avoiding the cloud at all costs. havent got a nas yet to replace onedrive but maybe one day!

When the left hand and the right hand not only don't talk to each other, but actively despise each other.

Thanks for the vid. I suspect that whilst opensource users are small in number, we have a bigger punch then our number as we are more active in posting in forums and making video reviews etc. The negative press generated will for sure be far worse then the over paid executives factored into this decision. We have seen Logitech back down twice now after the kick back, so hopefully this stops occurring.

Is anywhere any list of shame contains these companies, to protect customers?

Dripping with sarcasm - well done! But expect this kinds of shenanigans in the future from other manufacturers. Another reason that Home Automation is slow to catch on.

I hate companies that use the cloud to collect MY DATA from MY DEVICES, that I BOUGHT & PAID for, prevent me from accessing said devices locally bypassing their cloud charging mechanism to rip me off by charging to access my OWN data. Kudos to Open Source for for reverse engineering the API, hope that goes one step further and reverse engineering all the device comms to redirect that data to a local Pi Hub.

nice info! thx

Yes, a local API is the best way to go, it has been seen over and over again that these companies will stop supporting their cloud services for older products. And a product we bought specifically because it had support in Home Assistant, is not supported. Once a company does this, they have burned their bridge permanently with me. I'd never trust them ever again for any other cloud API support. There is really no reason at all for these cloud API's. Not for me anyway, since I run Home Assistant and can do whatever I want locally. I guess for people without any sort of home automation, some sort of app or web page that runs off the cloud is the only other choice. For me, the cloud API is not acceptable.

I agree that a local API is the only way to fix this.

This is why smart home and cloud does not mix well. Hopefully Matter/Thread will make things better in this regards....

6:00 how would they sell your data if it was send locally? Thats just lost money for them

They have shown their operating model, I now wouldn't trust them even if they released a local API, because how do they get that local API onto your device, and what's to stop them revoking that local API the same way? I remember TP-Link doing the same thing and they ended up having to rebrand.

an initiative should be organized as was done by the community with the gamestop stock

A pity I don't have haier equipment, I would have activated the integration and raised the pull to the max 😅 At least they came back on their word and now stopped threatening the poor dude who made the integration. Bit 20 years? For sure they won't maintain compatibility for that long.

The days when appliances lasted over ten years are a long time gone and they know it. Also, I added them to my list of companies to avoid.

It's moves like this that make me add the company's name to my private blacklist for purchases.

Wait a minute: Chamberlain, like the brand making garage door openers?

If there is a problem with API cost for companies, just give us LAN control over equipments without using the cloud => Problem solved. But they want control and they want a subscribe model for sure.

I find the argument that their cloud now costs too much kinda laughable. Haier: Hey, your devices should be cloud connected to be used. Users: Ok, we'll use the cloud. Haier: Oh, no. Err, could you use less cloud please? We didn't calculate this correctly. The solution is the local API, as you mentioned. Or, maybe, reengineer their cloud API to be not sooo cost intensive. (I thought the dev of the pyhion mentioned lots of additional calls he seemed unnecessary )

Why can't these companies just start making better integrations? Then they wouldn't have to cause all this drama or worry about open-source projects.