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I think the main reason why wokeness is not progress is because they firmly believe that the antidote to discrimination is more discrimination, which just locks us into an eternal cycle of grievance mongering and using victimhood as an excuse to victimize others. Their ideology is also collectivist, and collectivism is extremely regressive.

Tom Holland is a great historian. Christianity is still a powerful force, for all of us in the west

Listening to Tom Holland last year was a part of our Awakening again to our Christian heritage as the roots of Western Civilization and the waters we swim in. In deepest gratitude to Tom Holland. (And to you both and Triggernometry).

Tom Holland is fantastic. He separates himself as objectively from the brutalities of history as he does today's. It gives me the sense that his eye sees a greater truth.

What a wonderful interview with an extraordinary, thoughtful and decent man. My only regret is that such people are so rare, still less influential, in the modern world.

It started as an interview, it ended up turning into a masterclass on theology.

Zero conspiracy and propaganda. All truths and 100% history and philosophy. Gotta love Tom Holland the historian. Thanks Triggernometry.

That's not Spiderman!

The great Chesterton said it all and more neatly many years ago: The modern world is not evil; in some ways the modern world is far too good. It is full of wild and wasted virtues. When a religious scheme is shattered (as Christianity was shattered at the Reformation), it is not merely the vices that are let loose. The vices are, indeed, let loose, and they wander and do damage. But the virtues are let loose also; and the virtues wander more wildly, and the virtues do more terrible damage. The modern world is full of the old Christian virtues gone mad. The virtues have gone mad because they have been isolated from each other and are wandering alone. Thus some scientists care for truth; and their truth is pitiless. Thus some humanitarians only care for pity; and their pity (I am sorry to say) is often untruthful. I would have appreciated it more had Holland stressed more the madness of modern virtues.

Tom is articulating things which I have been mulling over for a long time, however, he has thought it through far more clearly and he contextualises current social attitudes brilliantly because of his understanding of history.

Absolutely love Tom Holland. Best hour yet.

Brilliant interview. Fascinating. These historians could really help society understand itself and develop in the right way if more people would just listen to them,

An interesting and informative interview. Tom Holland shows his historical and intellectual class and refuses to be drawn into anti-woke tropes. In fact he, despite the leading questions, skilfully schools the interviewers in the benefits of progressive thinking without as much as a peep in response. I for one enjoyed this and learned a lot.

Would love to see Tom Holland in conversation with Jordan Peterson.

Original Sin: the most democratic of doctrines. Man, do we all need a sense of our fallibility, now more than ever. Especially me.

Woke already has complete control of the universities. So we are pretty far down that road.

I've read everything by Tom Holland. Me and my best friend have been fans for the better part of a decade. I'm over the moon and not surprised that he's anti woke. Any historian worth their salt couldn't help but rebuke this filth.

I was hooked in the first 3 minutes. What an excellent, excellent conversation. Tom Holland and Triggernometry are class acts.

Tom Holland great as always,this man even when he stutters is more eloquent than 90% of us.

Really interesting perspective from Tom. Love his books and found this historical contextualisation of the current politics somehow reassuring. Happy to be a subscriber supporting these long-form interviews and guests. Keep up the good work.

I don't know what you guys did but this was at last a really quality interview. This level is what brought me to watching you in the first place. I hope you keep up the good work.

This was without doubt the most interesting and educational episode of Triggernometry I have seen! Thank you to Konstantin and Francis for the platform, and thank you to Tom for doing the interview.

Never knew Tom Holland was anti-woke!! Makes me want to read even more of his works.

Gregory of Nyssa declared slavery contrary to Christian teaching in the 4th Century.

Triggernometry, I absolutely love the work you both do! May I make a request for a guest? Avi Yemini. Aussie journalist who's got quite the story to tell. Jewish Aussie, and he's had his legal battles with the police in the Democratic Peoples Republic of Victoria, Australia. Much love guys. Round Two, Sargon Boogaloo when?

Pleasantly surprised at the last question :D Britain's wildlife is dying. Everytime I see the 'rolling hills of the country' I just get chills, there's nothing there...

What a kind and erudite man. I’m entirely with him on the dearth of hedgehogs.

"Mr. Stark, I don't feel so good..." - Portland

Fascinating stuff, providing several examples of why history should never ignored or erased from the public consciousness.

I really love Tom, I could listen to him for hours!

Brilliant! I've enjoyed it very much, especially as someone who loves ancient world and as a Catholic.

The hosts keep trying to drag him into cheap right-wing culture war nonsense but he doesn't take the bait and continues to provide informed, thoughtful answers. Bravo Tom

Tom Holland is great, I love his books and appearances on BBC In our time, one of the only programs left thats not been spoiled by Wokeness B-locks. Good work!

Thanks guys, this was def one of the most enjoyable episodes so far! (And a pink shirt styled so well, you can all be inspired for the rest of the holiday after the red sock incident.)

This interview is the highlight of my KZfaq experience this year. Tom Holland is next level hero

An extremely important discussion to be having at this time concerning the West’s religious DNA and how it explains the moral crisis our societies are going through. It’s great how you guys really get into the nitty gritty of these topics and do justice to them in your interviews, please keep them coming.

AHHH OMG You guys got Tom Holland! God I hope this is a trend and he ends up on a bunch of other popular podcasts too.

Tom Holland. Wow. Thank you. The most beautiful man I've seen for a very long time.

Absolutely brilliant! I could listen to Tom all day. Great interview 👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼

This was a fantastic discussion!

Loved listening to Tom Holland. He makes such thoughtful and though invoking points. The hosts seemed to be sadly blinkered however. They seemed incredibly egar to make it entirely about scoring political points, asking subtbly emotive questions rather objective. Not really listening to what he was saying and exploring the depth of what he was offering.

What a fantastic interview. I was glued.

This is one of the best episodes you guys have done. Thanks very much.

Tom Holland is our national treasure! So much to learn from his historical outlook and the present analogy! Had to subscribe; keep up the great work!👍

A perceptive and wise analysis. We never hear discussions like this on mainstream media,

Exellent insightful parallels across the ages more historians please

Great interview. This guy really has a clearer inside into what is going on now, and what *has* been going on for the last couple of thousand years.

I just finished reading 3 books by Tom Holland. Shocked to see him on the show.

One of the best history writers around today. In the Shadow of the Sword is superb, a really neglected aspect of history, but very relevant to today.

This is one of my favourite interviews; Tom Holland is a man I would love to go and drink a beer with. I am an atheist, and I doubt Jesus himself could be persuade me otherwise, but that doesn't mean I don't see much in Christianity that I both respect and love; it has brought us some fantastic architecture, art, literature and music and follows tenets (which I would argue aren't Christian but adopted by them) which are fundamentally good. I believe the death of christianity has in may way made society in the UK worse. I think Tom's observation on Wokeism being another flare up of rebellion against the Catholic church an interesting point, but equally I reject the concept of original sin and the idea of a human being 'perfect' as nonsense and an irrelevance. How any intelligent human can consider these sensible and justifiable (and while we're on the subject, eternal Hell and the 'unforgivable curse' too), utter twaddle. I think we can be no more 'perfect' than can a Fox or Magpie, and our arrogance in thinking we are unique in the world (let alone the universe) laughable and delusional in the extreme. We are just another animal on the planet, whose evolutionary route has invested deeply in brain size. It's now starting to look like this could be a dead-end. Grand thoughts and gestures as we destroy the planet and wipe out all other mammals is so typical of humanity. God proved himself to be a dick very quickly when he said we were free to use all other living things. Take note - nature has a way of dealing with population explosion. ETA: Since when did Christians always think slavery was wrong? I absolutely disagree with this. The bible gives clear instruction on what you can do with your slaves (both Jews and non-jews), and even the New Testament says 'slaves obey your masters'. Modern Christians make up ridiculous expositions about 'indentured servitude' but it cuts no ice. It would be very easy for both God and Jesus to say 'dude, slavery is really bad, don't do it. It's actually worse than eating shellfish or saying God sucks, okay?'. But neither(both, all three) of them did. So I absolutely disagree with him here. I think Tom would be far better to admit Christianity was a form of social control that suited the time and place it was created, but wasn't written by some weird, jealous, hateful yet loving eternal divine being who creates you in his form and knows everything about you before you are born, but still weirdly gets angry every time you sin, even though he knew you were going to do it, and actually made it so you would.

What a bloody brilliant episode! This guy is well worth listening to and probably worth reading. So much of what he explained makes sense.

Great guest. Great interview. Great talk. This is what makes western civilization great. Talking freely. Exchanging ideas. Learning new things.

Brilliant guest; great truths in his views of Western history!

0:19:00 Christians being somehow blamed for not ending slavery earlier is like social workers being blamed for not eradicating child abuse by now.

This is one of the best podcasts I've ever seen. Tom Holland's encyclopedic knowledge of social, cultural and historical accounts provides excellent insight into the issues of today. Right up until the final question about what we should be talking about but aren't. Hedgehogs?!? Really?? One of the main reasons we have culturally aggressive movements like 'woke' is because we've denied young people the very opportunities that previous generations took for granted. Addressing a broken planning system, so that we might meet demand for new houses is principal amongst them. Failing to do this, usually due to 'Nimby-ism', and that certain people believe HEDGEHOGS are more important than homes for young people, is the main reason why society is so toxic and divisive. Honestly, I thought his final comment was utterly bizarre.

I have never heard of him before but I like his style. He discusses like an actual academic and historian i.e not a bloody ideologue, and he uses factual and verifiable points to emphasis his stance and is level headed, in other words, he is not a progressive. I will have to check out his work.

Damn eye-opening interview, thanks! This bloke knows his stuff and so bang on...'there are no fascists, as there were no witches'. Adding all your guests on Twitter.

Fantastic and interesting interview, and love his last point about hedgehogs

Absolute banger guys. Loved this. I’m getting such a broad education through TRIGGERnometry.

I listened to this on the bus and I literally clapped really loudly after the amazing point Tom made between 36-39 minutes into this discussion, such a brilliant point well made, I only wish I could be as articulate (yes everyone looked at me like I was a nutter!)

I'm not a Christian but found this very interesting

At 32:30, it's said, "If you wanted to get anything done you needed slaves." Today that same argument is made for taxation.

Historians are the best people. Learning the past broadens your mind

Absolutely brilliant interview guys. And couldn't agree with Tom more, we don't talk about the specifics of conservation nearly enough!

Really enjoyed. Need to watch again. I may need to rebalance my views.

He’s changed a lot since that Spider-Man movie.

Me: sees tom Holland and thinks marvel * clicks the video * A surprise, but a welcome one at that

Amazing guest guys and his 'last question' answer was spot on.

Great, I really enjoy Tom Hollands work. Super guest.

Wide ranging & really interesting. I’m right with him on hedgehogs. Having not seen any for years, we have a good number (some massive) in our neighbourhood at the moment! 👍🏻🙂

Fascinating perspective! I love the true study of history. Thanks for this interview

Well that was just fantastic. So many light bulbs going on in my head. I hardly know where to start - but I will start by ordering the book.

One of the best Triggernometry episodes. What an interesting character.

Loved his books and respect him even more now. What a fantastic interview.

Tom’s story about the Yazidis is absolutely heart-rending. God help us. It is hard to stand in the stream of suffering, but doing so is in the substance of love.

Missing: When Tom said he had no problem with Colston's statue coming down, I'd have asked if he's happy with all the demands to follow that up with this, that and the other, and if he agrees with Sadiq Khan and his "Commission" looking at statues, monuments, street names, plaques, murals and works of art, in London to see if they are "worthy". Does he support that and crucially, where would he stop? Tom saw ISIS and the Taliban tear statues etc down (whatever they were it does not matter on principle), so I'm surprised at his outlook here.

The industrial revolution afforded western culture enough comfort and time to stop and contemplate the morality of slavery. Technology and invention has played a far larger role in moral progress than it is given credit for.

An utterly brilliant interview, I think the best on this site which is saying something. (I've read Holland's book 'Dominion' and can strongly recommend it.) I can vouch for the accuracy of his comments on Augustine and Pelagius. I've annotated Augustine's 'Against Pelagius' which contained many original quotes.

I'm heterosexual but I have a MASSIVE brain crush on this man! :-D So structured, articulate and crystal clear. And, as it happens, I totally agree with his views and analysis. In fact, I've been saying what he's saying for quite some time now, only that I lack the theological/historical detailled knowledge and can't express myself as eloquently.

notice that the right has a CONVERSATION, they don't yell, burn and accuse.

Fascinating interview. Fully agree with Tom Holland's emphasis on the richness of our Christian heritage, and its persisting influence even today, in our secular times. The religious elements involved in today's wokeness cannot be denied. It has appropriated much of foundational Christian theology for itself. But, at the very same time, it has neglected its most important tenets, a sense of humility and forgiveness towards others. It's developed inro a parasitic form of Christianity which needs to be resisted forcefully for all our sakes.

Very interesting and like his manner...not angry or emotional...very calm and easy to listen to ...thumbs up

Great interview, guys. Love you, LOVE Tom Holland. :-)

His last point about our diminishing wildlife failed to address the elephant in the room, that being an ever-burgeoning population.

This was a great discussion , thanks guys and Tom I loved the expressions on your faces when you asked the last question. I was also expecting something different and it turns out you must save the Hedgehogs. I will be buying a Tom book soon cheers

Very interesting and enlightening conversation. Quite enjoy these academic types you have on the show, Nigel Biggar was another good one.

What would be cool is to have a 5-6 person roundtable of historians that would critique this new religion of wokeness. Dissect it and break it down into its’ parts of propaganda, cultish dogma, and the demands it makes on a person.

It was heartbreaking hearing how we have ignored the yazidis

I will be curious to know how he landed the role of Spider-Man while running a pie manufacturer and a small European country

Killer Hedgehogs! Imagine someone making a horror film around that theme. I think there was one about sheep going on the rampage. I do not know what the sheep did but this time everyone gets prickled to death! 😂

What a fascinating and thought-provoking conversation, gentlemen! Ta very muchly. ☝️😎

The most fascinating and helpful podcast I’ve heard in ages. Thanks, guys!

Praise the Lord for common sense.

What a guy, I love the final point!

That was absolutely brilliant. How well Tom responded to the first dump truck of a question was the measure of his deep, broad knowledge. Revisionist history is a major extinction event.

#Me too... I don't think it is what he says it is, otherwise I'd be a supporter!

Man, am I in the distant future or what? Why is Spider-Man so old?! 😂

Really fascinating interview. Many thanks for this

Excellent interview! I love history and Christianity so I find Tom Holland to be so clear in his expression of these topics. I don’t agree with him on everything he said, but then, who does that, if you’re thinking at all you will have some ideas of your own, or of a differing scholarly view. Thanks for posting this!