Thanks for watching everyone, and let me know what your list would look like! There are a few moves I'm expecting to see pop up a lot in discussion, some of which I had my reasons for not including. I'll respond to some of the common comments below: *Mario's up tilt:* This move is definitely a lot worse than in Smash 4, but some of its dropoff in use also comes from the nerfs to his down throw, which sends people more horizontally than in Smash 4. Down throw combos were a big part of why up tilt was so notorious. *Corrin's Dragon Lance:* While this move is definitely worse overall, it _did_ get the ability to properly cancel it (a great buff) and still has a lot of other good uses, not enough of a gap for the list imo. *Sheik's forward air:* This one pops up a lot and I'm actually surprised to see it, the Melee variant was certainly ridiculous but it's still a fantastic move in Ultimate. *Insert X throw here:* If I allowed throws, this entire video would just be a bunch of Melee and Brawl throws. *Ike's forward air:* I don't think the gap is big enough, it's still a giant, fairly safe sword arc that's great in neutral and for edgeguarding, it's just worse at killing from the stage. Does that suck? Yes. Do I wish it still hit like a truck? Yes. But it's ultimately mostly the same tool. *Meta Knight's Dimensional Cape:* Yes, I know in Brawl there was a glitch that allowed you to infinitely disappear, but that wasn't legal in competitive play so it's irrelevant to this list, which is based on competitive singles. -Main channel: kzfaq.info -Twitter: twitter.com/MrMockRock -Twitch: www.twitch.tv/mockrocktwitch -Patreon: www.patreon.com/mockrock -Teespring: teespring.com/stores/mockrock -TimeBolt affiliate link (excellent software I use to speed up editing on my videos, use code "MOCKROCK" for a discount): mockrock--timebolt.thrivecart.com/order-page/

Can't forget about mario's up tilt. This move used to make you start the game at 40% but now it cant hit even when you are near it.

Maybe Sakurai meant Wario's punch is meant to give more feeling of impact rather than literal strength? That's what the comically sized fist makes me think

In Smash 4, Ryu's Shoryuken (a frame 6 move) was frame 1-6 fully intangible and was transcendent, and was also less laggy. Smash 4 was also the game where Rage was notoriously overtuned

Ultimate Marth dash attack is such an immensely awful move. Slow startup, very laggy, and is even harder to tipper than his other moves. Sour spot is so weak that you get punished for hitting it and tipper has zero combo potential and isn't nearly strong enough to compensate for everything mentioned previously. To me, it sits right next to Yoshi egg roll as a move that you just shouldn't use.

Hearing you talk about smash is really entertaining, so much so that even without a top player perspective, a standard smash ultimate tier list would be interesting! (For me. To watch. Maybe a boring project for you)

ZSS down throw was nerfed pretty hard between 4 and Ult. It went from one of her best combo starters into… a pretty worthless throw. Most ZSS players prefer to use f-throw and b-throw now to get positional advantage and start tech chases.

Surprised Shiek F-air isn't here. The angle it sends at in Melee gives me nightmares.

One notable limitation to the recovery prowess of melee ganon's wizfoot and sm4sh's dropkick is that they aren't reversible, so if you're launched offstage facing away they're effectively no help to you. Still leagues better than ult wizfoot, mind you.

Shoulder Bash as Wario’s dash attack makes a lot more sense since it is a RUNNING TACKLE. But the giant punch is so slow that it’s just MEH… Good shield break punish though!

This may have been addressed already but is there any particular reason why these videos aren't on the main channel? They have the exact same production value and range of topics :o

I didn't know that about ganondorf! it'd be so cool if his down special reset jump, you could do lots of funky stuff with that.

I yearn desperately for the Ganondorf that is truly new and awesome while not knowing exactly what that would look like in the slightest lol. In other news: I like the facial hair :D

One more thing to add about peach’s down smash in melee: if you were very close up (close enough to get all the hitboxes to land), it would break a full shield uncharged lmao I also feel like 99% of bayonetta’s moveset could be on here tbh

It's really funny how with Smash 4 Cloud they took Shulk's massive but slow nair and just made it as fast as a normal nair. Marth Dash attack and Roy D-tilt both deserve their upwards knockback angles back, just for some variety. Actually, Roy's jab does a similar thing now as his Melee D-tilt. Mach Tornado is okay as an auto tech chase and lets you escape from some out of shield options.

Can we talk about how Wizard’s Foot used to not have the sweet spot ON the foot? My friends and I called it Wizard’s Ankle.

I think they should have a "timewalking" mode in smash where you play with the best version of every character, un nerfed and raw op

6:47 Fun fact: Fox in Brawl had short hop triple laser that could autocancel in a short hop like in Melee, so it was just as nimble. It was Smash 4 that completely gutted lasers

I think Falco’s dair used to have no startup, but it’s still a threat and devastating upon the spike sweetspot.

It really is a shame that they didn't pull from some of the custom moves from Smash 4 when making Ultimate, there were some really cool/great ones.

Here's my list of moves that used to be insane that are now just okay: Marth Dair, used to have a spike for the whole animation instead of a single frame. Sheik Fair, just ridiculous angle and hitbox. Ice Climbers Dsmash used to have both of them hit both sides. Roy's Counter used to have the same multiplier as Arsene and sue to the invisible ceiling glitch sent at a very advantageous angle most of the time And Falco lasers, and mentioned in the video.

Great list! Although I personally would’ve addressed Jigglypuff’s back air too. Yeah it’s still solid, but compared to the meta-defining spacing and combat tool it once was, a laggy turnaround bair just isn’t as good in comparison

love the vid! in terms of other lists I'd like to see, I would love to see a video of the best move reworks in terms of design. You mentioned Snake's old down smash in this video, which is what gave me the idea. I would love to see a list retrospecting on moves that have gotten largely reworked like that one, ZSS's plasma wire, Shiek/Zelda's down specials, and other moves that have physically changed over iterations of the game.

Another good choice is Mario’s up tilt. Infamous in Smash 4. Borderline doesn’t work in Ultimate.

I definitely question the decision to have two moves from Fox while leaving witch time as an honorable mention, but nice list and great video man

Dedede back air. Used to be one of Dedede's most dominant moves in Brawl, in 4 onwards it's a sluggish worse version of his forward air.

Marth’s DA sour spot should be the scoop and sweet spot be a kill move, think that would be cool

Gotta say, I'd love a list of like "Top 10 disappointing ultimate changes" where you just go off on the moves or design features that you dislike on a personal level, viability and power be damned.

if ultimate's ganondorf simply had better tools for recovery, such as the old wizard's foot you mentioned, he would be such a more viable character

Slight correction at 6:47 . Fox was still able to cancel his lasers in brawl; letting him get off a lot of free damage much the same way as in melee. In brawl he could even laglessly triple laser in one jump. But yeah, every game after brawl, then he lost that flexibility

Bruh, it took me a second to figure out what was different over MockRock’s background and then I realized he had not published since December. The red and green bg is back to green and yellow. I miss red but the yellow looks NOICE

I'm fairly surprised Corrin's counter isn't on here. Could kill Bowser at 0 with a fully charged forward smash in smash 4, and in ultimate it got nerfed hard

Nice haircut Mock looking nice

problem with run and gun fox is 1.) holy hell does laser have a million frames of endlag now; and 2.) fox lacks anti approach tools. like if you try to dash grab fox he has to run away or jump. He doesn't have a big f-air or dtilt to challenge with. So immobile Fox just loses neutral, and being cornered sucks.

The great benefit of Fox neutral B is it resets moves going stale so when you take a stock you can spam out 9 lasers in time and the rest of your moves are fresh again which is really good for rushdown

I’d had mentioned Samus’s Missile/Super Missile from Melee to basically all games after. What used to be one of the best projectiles in the game, could be lagless, came out very fast, and could kill horizontally And now it’s pretty much none of those things, and hasn’t been those things since Brawl.

loved the video! always exciting to see your uploads

I'm surprised Kirby's up tilt didn't make the cut because it was a behemoth in Smash 64, it still works in Ultimate so I guess that's why

Holy shit, how have I never heard of that melee Ganon down b property?? That sounds awesome!! And funny, Peach's down smash in melee sounds like how people use Bowser's up b 😂

THAT CUT THO 👏👏

Honestly surprised that Little Mac's KO Punch wasn't mentioned. In the transition, it lost KO power, had it's animation redone which hampered both it's use in combos and as a recovery tool (as well as lead to niche situations where you'd end up off-stage due to his jump), and the speed of the game makes both holding onto it/keeping it extremely difficult. Great vid though!

Really enjoyed this, as I do all of your content. You're very analytical but opinionated as well and you balance that well

I think one of my favorite smash moments is a Brawl Doubles match where all 4 Meta Knight click Mach Tornado, all using it for a different purpose. One is recovering, one is edge guarding, one is applying pressure, and another is trying to get out of disadvantage. Just goes to show that game was DOMINATED by Mach Tornado.

Snakes down smash change in ultimate confuses me so much. you're taking a trap/zoner character and taking away one of his best neutral tools that corresponds with his other smash attacks' aesthetics (all heavy military weapons with niche uses) & replacing it with falcon's very simple down smash. why?

You bringing up custom moves was quite interesting, honestly if we ignore the egregious collecting of them it was a sick mechanic and had a lot of good fun, much like RoA’s Abyss Runes (which also happens to have an annoying collection process, albeit less so). Also you forgot to mention Kirby 64 Down Air was a shield breaker too, iirc the down air locks them into shield then you just link into like up tilt and boom, no shield.

Personally, I always thought Reflector having such an absurd amount of power outside of REFLECTING was kinda dumb anyway, so I have no issue with its nerfs.

I like how they changed Mach tornado, as a Meta Knight main. You can combo into it from a ladder if you are close enough to the side blast zone and sometimes in that situation you’ll die if you up b because you won’t be able to make it back. It also can destroy small projectiles(even tho he never had problems with them). Very cool move. *MK B META*

New MockRock video goes live, time to scroll through both his channels to see if there is anything else I can watch even though I've seen every video.

Sheik F-Air. It's still got combo-ability and is definitely not a bad move in Ultimate, but it's an insane move in Melee.

Discovered you from Shorts. Thanks for making these videos. Quality content.

Neat analysis video! Thanks for uploading!

I have been for the last few weeks going on youtube to look at a new video and now its here

MockRock getting in shape? Nicely done my dude

I think a more accurate title for this video would be Top 10 most NERFED moves in Ultimate. Saying WORST is kinda harsh and inaccurate.

I’d say you can also use Mach Tornado as a decent panic option too avoid your opponent when you’re landing.

Good job rockin' the goatee, man 👍

You would actually usually want to use back-air out of a meta knight bridge combo because of it's more generous knock back and confirm potential but other than that I was pleased by how in depth the meta knight section was.

Great video! Looking clean af too

Little Mac’s D-tilt used to be awesome in smash 4, as it was one of his best combo tools. Was butchered pretty darn bad in Ultimate. 1: Had less knock-back, making it easier to combo into other moves. Has more knock-back now in ultimate, but is still his weakest tilt attack, and is almost impossible to kill with unless the opponent is at EXTREMELY high percentages, so what’s the point anyway. 2: Had 6 frames less ending lag, making it so that it could not only combo into itself, but gave him several kill confirms and true combos. 3: Sent the opponent straight up instead of at an angle, again, making it easier to combo into other moves without the opponent escaping.

What. I am SHOCKED that Corrin Side B was not mentioned at all and especially not on the list. I think it’s a bigger actual nerf than a couple of the things on the list. Corrin used to be considered one of the best characters in the game back in Smash 4, but the new one in Ultimate tanked her so much, it just looks janky how little she goes.

Technically not a move, but ICs’ grab singlehandedly made them top tier in both Melee (before wobbling was banned) and Brawl and while their grab in Ult can still lead to death at 0 under the right hands, it’s significantly harder, especially since the second IC can’t grab anymore

Kinda surprised that Corrin pin wasn’t on the list. Like wizard foot still a really good move in Ult and it got some buffs, that said in 4 it just shut down the majority of the cast by itself. That move was the Min Min arms of Smash 4, it single-handedly gatekeept so much of the cast and was one of the best neutral tools in the entire game.

11:33 on the topic of moves that deal loads of damage randomly theres smash 64 yoshi dair which deals 56% if you get all the hits (which is not common) and now deals 35 out of a full hop and 28 out of a short hop (with freshness bonus but its almost always fresh)

I think Arcthunder deserves mention. It used to be the only reason to play as Robin

I would put meta knight’s mach tornado at #2 and put fox’s shine at #1. My reasoning is that you could actually SDI mach tornado towards the center and pop out and take minimal damage. Shine in melee defined fox’s neutral, combo, and kill game though and was probably the best defensive tool in melee. I also think that shine is a more useless move than mach tornado in ultimate since you can still use mach tornado to kill and recover while besides for reflecting, shine has almost all of its utility taken away with the removal of it being jump cancelable besides killing with shine spike really deep offstage.

Remember when people said Kirby's Down Air was worse than his Hammer even in the context of his kit? Strange times.

I just can't get enough of your lists 👏👏👏

Seeing this gave me a really dumb idea for a Smash Ultimate Mod: *Peak Ultimate*. basically, it would be a mod that would use the absolute best versions of every character's kits. Brawl Metaknight, Smash 4 Bayo, Melee Fox...the list goes on.

Something worth noting is systemic changes seriously hurt the usability of Fox's Blaster and shine and Peach's down smash BEFORE direct nerfs were applied. I get some of these systemic changes, though I'll never agree with them, but I'll honestly never miss a mechanic quite like how I miss land canceling projectiles. I would have taken incomparable nerfs to all zoners if using projectiles felt as good in UItimate as it did when playing Samus or the spacies in Melee. Would have been a really cool mechanic to expand on.

Samus Dash attack should’ve been at least an honorable mention. What was once a fearsome combo starter became a generic kill move at high %

this is the second video I've seen in as many days, where in talking about peach in a video, the commentator has played music from super princess peach and I'm just caught off guard from someone playing anything from super princess peach

Maybe you should do a video based on the best/worst moves in smash history in general, that'd be interesting

Fun fact about Cloud's nair, in Smash4 the hitbox didn't actually cover the whole sword, its huge range came down to Cloud effectively stretching his arm, in Ultimate it was nerfed like the video says by changing the animation so that he awkwardly retracts his arm that way the Buster Sword doesn't reach as far, now, the hitbox still doesn't cover the whole sword so you could say the move is "double nerfed" making it way less effective, if the hitbox was fixed but animation kept as Ultimate's it would be a better move but still nowhere near as amazing as it was in Smash4.

1:56 You actually made that video now

I really wish they bring back the old mach tornado, I know a lot of people didn't like dealing with it, but it made fro a much more fun and interesting character, now it's just one of those pecial not special move I really don't like it.

I’m glad witch time was in this video. If you don’t know Bayo that well witch time is gonna feel useless so you have to really think fast on what to do while it’s in use. Mind you it’s probably one of the riskiest move to use because if it doesn’t land, you’ll get punished for sure

I certainly expected to see Bayonetta somewhere in the video, but I'm surprised there was no mention of her up air. Originally, that was the finisher that basically caused low percent combos to kill, because Bayonetta would have already created so much height through two kicks and two twists. So any move that caused an upwards knockback after that was just ridiculously powerful. The solution ended up being that her up air was given more of a horizontal knockback so that it could retain its damage and hitbox, but wouldn't KO off the top anymore.

Could we get a video on the singleplayer modes? I know Smash is a multiplayer game but there are some really good 1-player modes like Special Orders and Target Test

That segment on Cloud made me wonder how you feel about your “Smash Veterans’ Best/Worst Change” videos and how they’ve aged as new discoveries have been made and moves have been updated. An update to those videos, or maybe just a review and commentary, might be interesting to see. Honestly, I think I’d like to see that for most of your prerelease/on-release videos; the Most Improved one in particular comes to mind especially.

I'd like to remind everyone that shine is a reflector

Would have been nice to see Peach Parasol there. Yes I know this is because of a universal nerf to rage, but that could kill at single digit percentages in Smash 4 with the loop hits.

Not a list but I would love to see a video covering how broken mii brawler was in 4

I know you said you didn't want too many moves from this era but Puff's nair in Smash 64 was basically Cloud's Smash 4 nair. The hitbox is the size of Ness and has such a huge disjoint that it just immediately cancels out so many other moves.

Surprised that G&W’s N-air isn’t in there, since Melee’s version is heavily buffed, I kinda wished that they didn’t resort to the fish bowl move.

Kirby's down air actually combos into many moves. Jab, down tilt and grab if they end up in front, up tilt if they're behind, and forward tilt for either side. Upwards of 160, comboing down air into forward tilt or up throw on platforms confirms into kills

KZfaq give me notifs for my favorite youtubers if theyre turned on challenge (IMPOSSIBLE)

I hate the fact that fox hasn’t been able to cancel his laser animation since brawl

Sheeeesh, i love your new cut

i don’t think snake should count. it’s a completely different move. also, i think his brawl down smash would be completely OP in ult because of the different ledge mechanics when it comes to trumping and invincibility

your hair looks amazing in this one dude. i have hair envy

Cloud used up B out of shield for the 9000 time: "I'll stop when you let buffered nair hit a grounded opponent right next to me"

Honestly, most of Luma's moves deserve a mention, specifically his Smash 4 gentleman, up air, and down air. These moves all came out ridiculously fast for just how much knockback they did. This is especially prevalent in the case of Up Air where Luma was notorious for taking stocks ridiculously early towards the top blast zone with a single Up Air.

Top 10 underrated/ underused moves

i’m gonna throw falco f smash into here as well, it was an incredibly powerful kill move that could gimp someone at like 60 if you hit them at the edge

What I expected In this vid: META KNIGHT

Clouds finishing touch was nerfed even more imo. It went from a fantastic combo finisher from falling up air and unquestionably THE best move in doubles to basically a slightly better falcon punch you have to charge

8:34 Falcon punch: Am I a joke to you?

"Top 10 recoveries that should be better" sound great. I can think mac, ganon as obvious ones and maybe some characters like dk even.

Just want to point out that Sakurai saying wario fsmash was changed to make him better may mean that they had to nerf it to accommodate for the buffs he got from across the board changes and individual buffs. Either that or he meant at a casual level where killing earlier = stronger.

13:58 You should've mentioned they basically turned it into its Dreadful Tornado variant from 4 in Ultimate.