Yes, but he knows how to play his power and politics beautifully.

That's just the mindset of the period. Most people experienced one of their kids dying, usually in the first year or two. You just had to accept that. He grieved his son, thanked him for his sacrifice, and then moved on with his life, because it would be a waste if his son died for literally no reason. Toranaga gave his death meaning and purpose by using it to his advantage.

from a concubine?

@@jmgonzales7701still legitimate. The heir’s mother was a concubine but he is still the heir regardless

​@jmgonzales7701 Eastern societies were different from western ones in that regard. Most western monarchs had one legitimate wife and mistresses from various social classes, so only the children of the legitimate wife, who was often the daughter of a powerful family or another monarch, counted, but in a lot of eastern societies, concubines were usually from well respected families and were essentially also married to the lord or monarch. So, their children were also legitimate. There was also the difference of birth order not really mattering as much in eastern cultures as in western cultures when it came to who would be heir. The eldest son was usually the heir, but if another son proved more suitable, or whose maternal family gained power over time and became powerful backers, or y'know if a younger son killed off or his competition, or the heir apparent simply fell out of favor with his father, another son would be appointed heir.

he thanked his sons and his generalsa who died. they were necessary deaths

​@@jmgonzales7701 necessary for his path in becoming shogun, not for the safety of the heir (whom he eventually requests the latter's mom to kill themselves)

@@bignerd5529 yes

Nakagado was too much of a loose canon which he proved when he foolishly killed the enemy general during the canon demonstration. That's when Toranaga decided to use his impusliveness to his benefit. At first, I thought it was Omi who encouraged Naka to go after Seaki at the courtesan house, but after viewing the last ep, I think Naka sent him instead. If Seki had perished, then he'd still get 49 days to grieve and got the same result when his son died instead.

I guess they simply have a very intimate relationship where they can tease each other like an old couple. She also kinda says here, that those words are too good to be his poem, which is true as they are Marikos words.

According to the FX Viewer's guide, Toranaga and Kiri basically grew up together. She was the daughter of one of the vassals of the lord Toranaga was given as a hostage to as a child. It makes sense she could talk to him like that, since they knew one another their whole lives and were married for at least 30 years.

All these women were bosses in their own right

If she admitted tho = interrogation + death.

the women kind of ran a lot of shit behind the scenes

I wouldn’t say replaceable. I’d say they were meant to play their roles.

Mariko sure wasn't, and that's exactly why her death brought him victory.

I don't know now what back in the days this was the first thing that your boss would tell you on your first day in the office

He saved Japan

@@richardshiflett5181how? I’ve watched the show but he still killed innocent people in the last episode(heads on pike). Can you explain?

Toranaga watched how the Phillipines and China were subverted by Catholic Missionaries.

Wait wait, what Catholics did to her? I mean she died blowed up by shinobi under Ishido commands, right?

@@masteroffear5762 You misread it. She betrayed the Church; the Church did not betray her.

Had Toranaga not done that, Japan would’ve been North Philippines and the culture we all have come to love would be non existent.

@@NarasimhaDiyasena yeah and as a filipino i would not like japan to be like one of us, Tokuwgawa and his descendants made the right call.

Based on many comment, the older one is Toranaga's seisitsu (chief consort) and the younger one is shokusitsu (secondary consort/concubine). All of shokusitsu's children also legally considered as seisitsu's children.

this is japan in the 14th century we are talking about. One thing you have to know about cultures in the past maybe except for the west when they embraced Christianity most cultures monarch had a lot of wives and ofc they also had children with them.

@@jmgonzales7701 17th century. But you're not wrong about the rest. In pre-Christian Japan this was all very normal for a man of his status.

@@laerwen yeah i forgot it was 17th cenutury. But yeah most cultures had imperial harems it was normal.

Yeah guys, I get different times, different cultures etc and my comment wasn't a commentary or judgement on that. Just thought it was kinda hilarious amd in keeping with the character of Toranaga. 😁

yeah he is far more evil here

Yes , he is likeable. That's necessary to control people.

even thought it's a baby, its still his son. Toranaga know well the power that family wield. having his newborn son under his control means he can't be used against him in a near future. Beside it's another agent that would be totally loyal to him he can mold as his will

Yeah most likely other sons that already grown up

He has other sons

We already now he has an adult son when we saw Ochiba’s sister talking to Mariko at Edo for Nagakado’s funeral in episode 8. She was married to Toranaga’s son. For some reason the show just didn’t show him

Toranaga's heir apparent was an interesting person - totally focused on his Father's wishes.

Toranaga's consorts

​@@hellotothepplI think one is the mother of consort

The older lady is wife number 1, the younger is a consort. Japanese had different types of marriages.

Old one was his wife, the other who had the baby was the wife of his son, Yoshii Nagakado. so daughter in law.

So, yes he is married to the older one, Kiri.(you could only have a singular legal wife). whereas the younger one, Shizu is only a concubine. But as i understand they still both have the duties of a consort and he so he collectively refers to them as his consorts. Either that or there is an additional concubine besides lady Shizu that was part of the retinue that I just didn't make note.