Noobs be like: "Oh, my Infantry can't defeat the pikemen. A cavalry push should penetrate the line."

What I learned: 1. No you cant.

This video should be called "how to lose half of your legionnaires doing something skirmishers could do with 0 casualties"

full frontal cavalry charge...duh

But... Legionary cohort is kinda end-game unit, while pikeman is tier 1 ~ 2 unit. They should be fighting against Foot Companion, not just common pikeman squad.

In ancient times, Pikes were often used without gaps between groups of pikemen. The flanks of the Pikes were protected by more flexible troop types, e.g. hoplites, hypaspists, thorax swordsmen, etc.. This is how I try to use them in Total War games.

I have never thought of these mechanics before! Excellent! Really excellent!

"...while the Legionary cohort has lost a lot of pikemen" :D

This shows a 1v1 scenario, how well do they manage when fighting against a line of pikes where they can't flank?

It's not going to work against a thick solid line, protected on the flanks. Missile units beat pikes that you can't flank.

Drinking game: Drink everytime he says “ranks deep”

Very old thread, but from my experience it is really really good to place three units that are 3ranks deep each in the same place with 1st rank overlapping second rank of the next unit, this means that if enemy unit would somehow break through the soldier from the unit that is behind "First pike unit" will take over killing those who managed to squezze through. Third unit of pikes (that will be the last) should be placed so their pike heads are just barely in front of the first line. The last pike unit will defend first one and second one from hand to hand combat. With only 6 units of 120units each I managed to get ~2340kills whike loosing only ~ 180 soldiers. Your line should look like this: ********************************* *#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*# *#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*# +#+#+#+#+#+#+#+#+#+#+#+# ++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++++++++ * - Soldier of first unit # - Soldier of second unit + - Soldier of third unit

you made a 10min long video just to say flank them?

This just won me an epic town defense! Thank you Max! :D

KZfaq recommends me this every year

Pikes are a bit of a weird unit... In Rome 2, you can easily mass-produce heroic victories with them, at least in custom battles. I did this a few times just to try it out; only three really good pike units (so you can form a triangle with them, with pikes pointing out to all sides) against a full army of just shock cavalry. Heroic victory, always. Now I know, of course, pikes are strongest against horses, makes sense, but for it to be that extreme even when they are outnumbered 3:20 or something like that... Pretty sick. Oh and also, if you use chariots instead; those can sometimes break through the pikes, even though it's still kind of just horses charging straight into the points of the pikes, which is kind of weird if you think about it.

It still doesn't address how to beat pikemen frontally. All this video showed was that you can 1) beat pikes spread 2 ranks deep effectively (no kidding), and 2) that flanking pikemen is effective (no kidding). A good general commanding pikemen will ensure that the flanks are secured with good bracing units (hoplites or spearmen in square formation) and a mobile set of cavalry to take advantage of when the enemy attempts to hit the flanks. The fact remains that quality pikemen spread 3+ ranks deep simply cannot be beaten by any unit in the game, regardless of formation, if the opposing unit cannot flank the pikes. I spread my pikes 4 ranks deep and cover their flanks, and I have never seen my pikes beaten frontally by anything. Also, if you can bottleneck enemy units into a small gap to come through, pikes simply will not lose. On several occasions, I have had single units of pikemen (120 man size) kill over 600 men by themselves without issue, which is roughly 3 times better than any Roman Praetorian unit was able to do.

"the legionary cohort has lost a lot of pikemen"(Meridius Dec. 22, 2014) 6:11

nice experiment, although pikes aren't meant for single unit combat, and flanking them in any regard will almost surely decimate them. any commander that lets his pikes get flanked aren't using them properly.

Very cool video. I play off and on and was always afraid to try loose formation. My thinking was “that’s meant for missile def. so I never bothered testing this thanks for the tip

Miss ya big man. Strength and honor.

Breath of fresh air! Very methodical! Ingenius tactic!

What are flaming pigs and dogs for then?

I've been playing this game for a week after 4 years and finally getting around to it. It was falling down a wiki rabbit hole on the history of Army formations and reading about the Roman staggered Maniples/Cohorts that finally got me into this. Historical tactics actually work in this game Haha. Loose formation though is definately something I want to try.

mate, you're a legend! strength and honour!

I love using pike men in assault of defences of smaller settlements. I love blocking of exits with pikes and keeping them in gaurd mode and just watching seas of enemies run at them. I keep middle units in the middle to hit their own middle units and a some fresh sword/spearman to back up or rotate once fatigue has set in. I also hide some cav to shock hit or mop up any anyone flanking units or missle units. Favourite thing is to watch pikes stay fresh in gaurd mode then slowly advance forward

I would have liked a test against an unbroken line of several pike units, I very much doubt spread formation is as effective in that case. Still very interesting, thank you for putting the time and effort into these tests :).

In chess the pawns kill when attacking at an angle. This video is cool and I loved seeing how different formations affect the battle... but never attack pikes head on. Space your cohorts apart, keep them dense, and charge the pike at an angle. Pikemen can't respond fast enough when you shift you line rapidly. P P P / / / L L L

Horses on the flanks. Archers behind to hit the loose units as they approach the pike wall. Add a few good melee units in reserve just in case one wall falters.

I can't believe I wasted 10 mins of my life thinking someone found a way to out flank pike men, after I've already spent hundreds of hours of playing Rome 2. Thanks...

Pikes at the centre, spears, swords and cavalry at the flanks and missile units at the rear.

In line formation, holes begin to appear between phalanxes as casualties from missiles and fighting accumulate, allowing for this exploit in frontal assault. I once had an elite unit of Celtic cavalry smash into my pike line, at the fracture between two pike units, dividing them and followed up I to the breach with infantry, which widened the gap and threatened breakthrough. But since I screen my line with medium skirmishers, and they pull back during assault, I had reserves in the second line to plug the gaps. The AI was very creative in that battle and almost beat me.

I love my pikeman, I frequently use them in a bow formation, with two light-medium infantry units on each side, then encircle the enemy with said infantry if they're not engaged

The colors look great on the units! Are you using the standard color/gamma settings?

Thanks for the advice. By the way, I also always place a phalanx of pikemen with gaps 2 squads wide. By the way, I don’t understand why you grabbed the lone phalanx units from the sides, if you could just attack in the back, and there would be even fewer losses. What a genius the author is, low bow. I will ask the enemy not to line up in a wall, but to line up in checkers.

I play a lot of pikes and my nemesis is the javelin. A lot of javelins can take out enough men to thin my formation enough for them to be overwhelmed.

And What About a line of Pikes? How Would we Counter that? same idea? Loose formation and wrap around?

Micro manage until the long pike line stags(they move like turtles) and stick into the gaps is the only frontal way. However, it is technically still flanking as you must attack the pikes from the sides.

Thanks, but usually pikes are used in narrow valley or usually with other units to make it difficult to flank, U should make a video against pike with army.

1-2 unitsof pikeman with hoplites on the flanks. Open up the space between the pikeman and hoplites and tempt the enemy go to the sides of the pikeman and crush them with the hoplites as they circle closes.

What if the Legionaries attack 10 ranks deep? like a 10 x 4 formation with all the pilums 80 of on that 5x4 set of enemy. maximum 4 pilaue per defender? One high lobbed the other very flat and fast - in the air sat as the time. The the opposing phalanx force quick penetration?

Awesome Guide !!!

I do have a question though, haven't watched all the way through yet so might be adressed but what happens if the pikemen are in one big line?

Well since Greek hoplites and Pikemen Are carry a Little Round shield. I say Any trying any type of missile Slingers, Archers, Javelin men. Or Peltasts to weaken the Pikemen then flank’em with since the Pikemen have very limited speed and can be out maneuvered by any cavalry units

Would also be interesting to see pikes used offensively, like the Swiss pike formations, against Roman legions.

U wont outflank anything in a battle like that, because pikeman dont stand alone. There will be always a couple of foot companians standing next to each other with no space between them.

The same tactics the Roman armies used to fight Macedonian, Greek, and Seleucid armies during the 200-100s BC. Great work! Good job at applying real tactics and overcoming and obstacles in the game.

so many good soldiers had to die for this presentation...

I think that the pikes needs hoplites around, the pikes in meadle and hoplites at the left'n right

what about turning off formation attack?

Everytime i encounter pikes I always use units that shoot missiles at them before engaging. Flankable or not

Thanks bro It really helped me out

The best is 4 ranks deep. The entity mass helps to brase against charges. Also, the answer, is archers.... Or even slingers, because they're basically light infantry, a few are medium infantry depending on faction/unit.

This very informative, but most pike engagements will be 3 or four units protecting each others flanks with only the flanks on either ends being exposed.

it also helps when you out vet the pikes and out equip them with attack and defencive bonouses cause that will tear them up faster regardless of what formation they use.

But what if there is no space for you to out flank the pikes with the loose formation in a siege battle. Like there is no counter for pikes holding streets and chokepoints apart from ranged units

very nice, very informative.

Actually a very good video at explaining why the Romans did not fight in the quincunx formation. Too easy to get surrounded.

If you’re playing a pike based faction here’s a pro tip: keep at least a third of your pikemen in reserve to fill gaps in the line. This strategy allows you to quickly fill in areas with high attrition rates, and reaping to cavalry flanking maneuvers without changing your primary fighting line. Furthermore, if you do happen to lose all your cavalry or a significant portion of your opponents forces successfully surround you, having a third of you forces behind the main line allows you to form the “noob” pike box which will keep your first line alive until there is a break in the enemies lines and you can reallocate pikemen to reinforce others (this generally begins a chain reaction of breaking already engaged enemy units and freeing up more and more of your pikemen to attack elsewhere).

You forgot the "run through the front line" trick :P . Just when your unit engages and looks stuck fighting the pikes, you order them to run behind the pikemen. You will lose 20% of the unit with that move, but then massacre them from inside.

The field looks great... wich mod are you using?? :o

Traditionally the Greek city armies would have their hoplites and other pike wielding men would hold their pikes raised in the air at an angle or vertical to block incoming arrows.

Forget pikes. Those damned Parthian horse archers are the bane of my existence

I did not know that before. Thanks

Personally I like four ranks deep so I can still have three pikes in front with my entire front line in close combat

40 v 40. A phalanx of 20-30 units with flank and rear sealed by pikemen while the rest is cavalry / missile troops. That's the hardest force to crack.

so we can't get through the pike at the front. only available when we flank, but in battle they will stand close and keep their flank secure, that means we should have to find another way to get through the pike. such as peltasts or slingers.

Do these principles apply on Shogun 2 vs Yari Wall?

ten minutes of 'a situation that will never exist'. Pikes are a frontline, center unit that has their flanks covered entirely for this specific reason. The best way to handle them is to not handle them directly in the front. Get Velites, archers, slingers, anything that can ping them from range. Break them that way. Pikemen are those units that are super easy to deal with in the start but if ignored become SUPER DANGEROUS in the end.

The issue with Rome 2’s depiction of pikes is that it attempts to adopt a rock paper scissors approach with unit counters. Pikes basically beat, or seriously degrade, anything charging frontally, but are in turn vulnerable to rear charges and missile fire and get messed up when caught out of formation. The historical reality was that pike units were in fact much more flexible - meaning they could be used as a massed wall of spears but also as more flexible infantry. The other reality is that they were not the insta-death, mass-killing machines as depicted in game. They were excellent at pinning enemy forces to enable supporting units (cav or other infantry) to flank or exploit weakness in the enemy line. Vanilla, IMO, does a poor job at showcasing this nuance. DEI mod, by comparison, does a decent job of depicting pike units - their killing speed is slowed to a crawl, but they can hold out nearly indefinitely from frontal attacks. Combined arms tactics have much more relevance in this mod.

Simple: Either outflank the pikes and attack from behind, or kill them with archers/skirmishers/artillery. Which is why it's important in battle to keep your archers safe and not waste their ammo. Archers can play a key role if used correctly.

This is precisely why the phalanx is still an important part of any army with a lot of pikes.

How do you do loose formation with thorax swordsmen?

I usually uses missiles till it dry, after that, the Phalanx usually retreated back with severe casualties

The only proper way to fight pikes is unzip one end with either contact or skirmish, and push units through to the other side. Now the problem with pikes is when engaged trying to reform the phalanx will kill a ton of your unit. So really getting past that initial push and forcing your guys farther into the formation is the best counter. You can win head on versus a pike wall just concentrate on that first unzip and then if they move to fill in they just make gaps to exploit. Notice how long it takes for either a phalanx to reform or them to move in that tight formation? Super slow. So Skirmish and follow up for the push or unzip and exploit. Flanking is the obvious choice but nobody just leaves the flank open from the start; unless you have an unholy amount of cavalry.

I play Rome total war one on iOS, I usually use phalanx to engage them and have archers to weaken them, then send chariots to disrupt their formation from the flank, I just started playing three days ago so I’m still learning new strats

Wish you tried loose formation vs pike square formation.

Remember the first time I went up against pikes, had no issues until I went east into Greece as the Romans, didn't know pikes were so strong so 4 units almost killed my entire army (his other troops did very little) was very confused how it happened for a while

How good are Carthaginian pikes compared with those of other factions? Are they more cost effective than the levy or standard pikes of an Hellenic faction? What are the most important stats for a pike unit? Thanks :)

SO the best way to defeat pikes from the front is to wrap around the sides? I guess if the flanks are protected by other units most of this will not work out.

That's why you want to make a line with your pikemen army and protect the flanks

They would be stacked for that very reason ... And side by side with supporting units.

This video just shows Roman elite units against cheap pike units and 1v1 not a army vs army

I always use Missile Cavalry as Auxiliary Cavalry or Missile Units such as Roman Archers to deal with those Pikemen Formation , that will be better if I have Onagers or Heavy Onagers this siege weapon to deal with them .

I know this was a demonstration of 1 on 1 tactics but I would never let my pike units stand apart. Pack them tight in a large phalanx and overlap the ranks. Keep flank units facing out to prevent flanking or envelopment. Also depending on size of army/number of units, keep a reserve to reinforce the line if any unit wavers or is taking heavy losses. Ideally, some cavalry to break up opposing archers if possible. 1 on 1 a legionary unit can out manoeuvre a pike unit sure but it shouldn't play out like that. Now my tactic against pikes is to engage them from the front with low value infantry and flank wide with better infantry units or cavalry in an attempt to hit them from the side or from behind if possible. Pike units will break very easily if hit from a flank or behind. True for most units but especially pikemen. Once the phalanx is broken, then units can be isolated and dealt with as shown in this demonstration. Best advice is to have a balanced army. A balanced force with melee and ranged units, infantry and cavalry. Also, smaller force with higher quality units. Quality over quantity every time. In urban battles, never man the walls with pikemen as they just get chopped to bits. They are far better blocking streets. Again, packed tight they can make a real nuisance of themselves. Thank you for the demo by the way. I have always been a move loose attack tight player. I shall definitely look into loose formation attacks :)

great vid

for those saying you cant beat pikes head on, fight pikes with.... *PIKES*

useful info! like it!

Now the loose formation is good, but what about in city fighting where you cant use loose formation the same way you could in open terrain.

You can just put pike units one next to the other (linked} so they cannot be outflanked.

Since when would you ever place a pikeman formation where it can be flanked???

what if the pike units are lined up abreast and you cant flank them? are there any units that can take them then? is there any chance you can disrupt thier formation by trying to push though them?

I love charging phalanx bottom side.. It sounds wrong but it feels right...

if u have the option to attack frontally with loose formation so that ur units can wrap around and flank from the sides, then why not just attack from the side entirely instead of having most of ur units get stabbed attacking from the center?

Pikes also break stationary formations on contact in my experience.

The thing is that in a live game the enemy will move the pikes into a bette position so the flanking wouldn’t last long

archers and slingers are the best killers of pikes

German Berserkers are basically a group of Hercules, they can handle several group of pikes like nothing while people started flying away

never try to beat pikes from the front even the real life roman didn't do that

My personal tactic is trying to get my infantry behnid the pike unit or on their flanks, no matter how deep the lines are.