Good Lord!!!! I just finished the entire, nonstop interview and all I can say is that THIS was a conversation! Finally someone that backs up everything he says with not only experience but valid and understandable examples of his views. I think I'm going to have to take some notes when I listen again, and I will listen again! I did catch his interview with Susan Garrett, (originally published in 2020?), and this was by far light years ahead of that conversation.

Outstanding conversation. I think you’re both right on the overuse of e collar punishment. I think it does become very reinforcing for trainers that don’t know what else to do and I also believe that comes out of frustration. You guys need a part 2

Steve listening to you made me miss the conversations we've had going way back. If I may contribute to this discussion, almost no one discusses handler attitude and its impact on the whole training process. It is very difficult to clearly observe in any study situation. You and Ivan both touched on this but not nearly enough. Dogs are so good at reading us that if we show annoyance through our voice, our posture, our rhythm, our hand position and speed. they respond with stress. It would be good to see an experiment that could quantify the impact of handler attitude vs the delivery of punishment or reinforcement. I would love to hear you and Ivan discuss negative reinforcement in more depth given past podcasts where Ivan discussed that element in the effectiveness of games. I believe that discussion could contain much that speaks to resilience.

I have been training dogs since I was 9 years old but I never got into learning the techniques until about 3 years ago. I am currently working with a dog that was over-corrected with an e collar to "fix" his aggression issues. There are way too many trainers that will use correction to fix a behavior. That initial statement of "you haven't earned the right" rings so true with so many dogs. There has to be more than correcting behavior. Playing with your dog, interacting with and developing a relationship with your dog can be the most powerful thing you can do. So many dogs fail because the dog doesn't have any interest in even just playing with their owners.

Fabulous conversation by two outstanding expert professionals 🙏

I think This was the best conversation yet

Great podcast. The best part for me was the last 45 minutes and the discussion of their ideal path for the future of the dog training community and for dog breeding. As a search and rescue dog handler I especially appreciate Steve's comment about bringing us into the conversation. We put our dogs in every situation imaginable, and some you could never imagine. We need dogs that match the ideal that Ivan and Steve have in mind. I have a dog that approaches that ideal - bred by Ivan.

Absolutely wonderful! This is how people/trainers should be having these discussions!!! THANK YOU BOTH!

What a wonderful, mutually respectful conversation between two giants in the dog training world!

This was such an educational and enjoyable conversation. Both of you come to the conversation with knowledge, mutual respect & a desire to learn from each others point of view. I will be watching this several times.

Thanks for sharing your knowledge Ivan and Steve.

I've trained myself completely through youtube using you Ivan... I just want to stop to thank you for all of these podcasts... Where I live there is an insane positive only crowd... I've asked quite a few of the same questions you ask the trainers and people who come on here... It's amazing the mental gymnastics... With that being said... Thanks to you I simply charge 25$ an hour and take all of their clients just based on price... It's spreading like wildfire and its really all thanks to you... Thank you Ivan! I hope to one day join your classes in Tampa all the way from Canada. Cheers!

Brilliant pod cast ... 2 obviously dog loving men just having a chat .. refreshing to see ... steve is so right .. as long as the dog moves on to live a happy life thats all that matters ❤️

great show ivan. I learned so much from this healthy discourse

As usual, fantastic. I'm listening for the 2nd time already 😂 This man needs to join you in conducting proper studies. I just love how you listen and geek out, Ivan! Such a good listener, yet then you just bring up deep questions for discussions. Such great brain food for the dog and science community, thank you! Update us soon on any studies you have planned...I think many of us are counting on you, knowing you silently fight with actual merit behind it. Calculated, smart yet passive enough to accommodate everyone (except not for Zak apparently) Thank you!

Great podcast. What an amazing conversation between two outstanding professionals. Thank you!

Fiduciary is a better term for our role in the dog’s life. We are always looking out for dog’s best interests.

kudos to both of you, loved the conversation

VERY AWESOME podcast guys, thank you 🤠

Thank you guys. You are changing dogs and people life Can't wait to know TWC in person🤘🏼🐺

Oh man I love these podcasts and your method. Listening to these literally make me a better trainer.

Yes "DOGS WHERE THERE" when people weren't for sure. That says so much. Thank you both ,very interesting. The here and now with a dog is essential , that particular day. I don't agree that using an e collar becomes the easy option or reinforcing correct in any way at all. Quite the opposite in fact. Each to their own I guess. Nor do I find any need to use higher levels either. Lets not confuse human ignorance with anything else here. It take a while to understand e collars, how and why they work without causing distress to the dog. A great tool when used correctly and to help the dog live a life where it can be trusted to be off lead/leash and enjoy the life and learning we give to them.

Mind blown.

Steve keeps going back to this idea that “punishment begets more punishment”. He points to the fact that increasing frequency of a given behavior by definition means the behavior is being reinforced… in other words, if punishment makes the punisher “feel good”, they will punish more frequently due to the satisfaction it provides. The correct answer: if you punish properly, you should not have to punish more over time. If you punish improperly, you will actually negatively reinforce an ALTERNATE BEHAVIOR which you will then have to attempt to “re-punish”, only to negatively reinforce another alternate behavior, so on and so forth. You must blend positive and negative punishment appropriately in order to truly eradicate an unwanted behavior…

Has Steve published any of his work? Cannot find books or videos on him?

Susan Friedman is a PhD psychologist. As with most of the purely positive crowd, to my knowledge, she has never trained in any dog sport to a high level. Until they can compete head to head with balanced trainers, and win on a consistent basis, it is all just blather. They will spend twice as long to get half the results. Kudos to Ivan for being so hospitable even to a fault.

Great podcast. I was disappointed when you kept asking him the direct question. Would you rather walk into a room blindfolded and possibly run into landmines or would you rather have some markers directing you good or bad? He danced around the question and did not answer . I think he was being dishonest because your analogy was perfect. He could not with a straight face say he would rather take his chances walking into land mines instead of having some guidance through the use of markers or communication.

@Ivan what is your favorite cigar?

I disagree entirely with Steve’s premise on ecollars. The entire purpose of high quality and effective ecollar training is to stop pushing buttons altogether at a certain point… just as the entire purpose of high quality and effective leash training is to not ever have any pressure/tension on the leash at a certain point… and that right there is the training… e collar is a wireless/invisible leash.

I hate it if someone knows and isn't somehow letting me know that I'm wrong or right. A clue or a full explanation and remedy, whatever, I want the information flow. A PERMANENT REQUEST that you let me know, is what I choose.

Where is part 2?? With 4hrs ?

OMG it's a small world, I live in Kitsap County. I used to take my Rottweiler to the old sheriff's barn in Silverdale in the early 90's to run their obstacle course, I wonder if we ever crossed paths.

❤❤❤

@Ivanbalabanov I agree with you 100% when you said ignoring and only reinforce is not a complete circle of learning and I agree it gives no serious consequence to an action. now as someone with ADHD which is more primal (imo), stimulation based & where dopamine calms, much quicker to fight/flight/freeze/fawn and live in the moment so often very forgiving of small fractures. Big ones are remembered though (severe abuse/life-threatening or even life-saving!!) it works much the same as a dog brain works and its easier to see in malinois, collies, spaniels etc. high drive dogs. I agree with you over Steve purely because I and many others (I ran a support group for a while) experience life where we just don't know why something is socially inappropriate or why someone disappeared. for example, in school adhd kids interrupt, fidget, make noises etc, bit like a mal chattering its teeth trying to sit still & waiting to be released, right So the kid shouts, the teacher puts them outside of the class (dog barks/demands reward forcefully (biting arm or something) = toy goes away or goes in crate), kid comes into class next time and repeats the same behaviours, the same repeats & repeats, the kid would do the work, but was still kicked out of class. Now that initially sounds more like the wrong teaching for the kid (methods/sport/home/handler with dogs). However, what is also happening is that socially the other kids tease them, they don't get invited anywhere, they have no friends, their learning happens outside the door or in a room on their own and all the while nobody tells them what exactly they have done wrong!! WHY does it keep happening? and what they could do to resolve the issue. (correction at the moment, unacceptable behaviour, resolution to correct behaviour). I cannot count the number of times I've said something impulsively or out of context/with no context/in the wrong tone etc. etc and someone has just quietly disappeared...I still to this day, often do not know why what I did was unacceptable nor how to correct whatever it was.... that's where I see the difference between force-free & conflict-free even in the dog world, force-free ignores that almost all social groups use corrections to teach & that's not for a lack of other communication methods as we know, animals communicate very well together via body language, a touch is a form of that, tools are also being found to be used by many more than just humans, sometimes punitively as well, as a stark 'don't do that shit!' as seen with the chimp hitting their youngster with a stick for throwing stones at visitors, monkeys pulling tigers' tails will eventually see or experience something horrible - yet they do it anyway until then, chasing livestock in dogs' cases, human kids running out onto roads - almost every parent smacks/yells really seriously for a bad dose of that. a mother animal walks and young follow, if they don't they get lost, quite often fatally so mum does give corrections to encourage them to follow her. The e-collar to me, is the equivalent of a teenager's phone ringing (2 senses hearing & vibration) because it is past curfew, depending on how far past curfew it is would depend on the parent - either a past curfew home or get your ass home now scenario, dog equivalent = recall before correction or joint as an 'oh pants, coming!!' depending on how the collar is used and the reason for usage/seriousness of the situation, used properly it's a lifesaver. I agree that it should come with training. I hope I explained well enough. It's very complex, and we can go into so many areas overall I find balance is the key. abusers/bullies exist in every species Unfortunately, most of us are not that. we have laws which most people need no negative reinforcements not to break, others need warnings, others get jailed & those who are jailed often end up in the worst states mentally. owner to guardianship is also changing for land owners, especially those who want a closer connection to nature and to restore landscapes and biodiversity.

I was also hoping to hear more about his views on force free methods during police k9 bitework training and deployments. Especially while needing to maintain high level of reliability and while under the extreme stress that dogs can endure during a live bite.

👍

Not sure I understand the exchange about the e-collar. The premise was that if one uses the e-collar, then one is going to use it again or even depend on it? Isn't that why it is called a tool? A drill works better than a screwdriver in most situations. If teaching how to use the e-collar is the problem....who is the right teacher? Dog trainers can't even agree on the use of a clicker, lol.

Dog picks up trash from street after i said no, i snap leash lightly -aversive, she drops the garbage - "GOOD GIRL/PET/PET/TREAT" - reconciliation - end of story

but the human study.. the people pressing the buttons weren't trying to stop some behavior in others that was an issue for them.. they were not getting "relief from a problem".... its not a good example

Steve white looks like a chubby James hetfield

Would you break down the meaning to you of the word "criteria"?

Regarding punishment reinforcing using more punishment, I think it should be rephrased as the use of punishment reinforces the likelihood of using punishment when it's appropriate. Which I can agree with. I don't think it necessarily increases the overall frequency of punishments. Just like using a snow shovel. You might only need it a couple times a year, but it's the right tool for the job in those moments.

@3:19.. re " fall out is only when its not used correctly... nope that is not correct. For walking ahead of him, 1 "balanced " trainer.. he gave my dog 1 appropriately timed correction ... my dog tried to hide behind me. We left after that correction and my dog was from that day forward afraid of men... he was not afraid of them before .

When you use punishment 1 time.. and choose to use it a 2nd time..that is the proof of reinforcement.

Did he really just equate his granddaughter to his dog?😳

if you can look at both dogs and "not know who trained them"...that sounds to me like the perfect reason not to use corrections

I'm so bored with the "no blame" ideology being repeated ad nauseam. FAULT. There is a fault. Maybe in the dog's action maybe the handler's action maybe in genetics of either..it does not matter, so long as it exists. Call a fault a fault and stop dancing around the blame word. Blame for fault. Maybe a lazy trainer. Deserves the blame. His fault.