"Well lubricated for the player's pleasure". With the wrong context, you could be in a Durex advertisement.

I depress my valves with a sledge hammer. what about it hater

his accent and pronunciation makes this 100000000x better

I dont know about bending valves, but I remember learning in high school that the c shape of the hands and fingers actually increases dexterity and accuracy, and has absolutely nothing to do with handling the instrument correctly. I remember my band director telling everyone to do it that way, regardless of the instrument you played, and that it should be a relatively universal hand shape

My teacher has a bell front euphonium made in 40-s. If you don't know what it is then Google and you'll see how its valves are positioned almost horisontally when held in playing position. Su under their own weight the pistons wear off the tubes. During its 70 years of wear and tear the poston casings have worn a bit oval. We measured it. They move just fine in playing position but when resting flat on your lap they are always sticky no matter what you do. What I'm saying is that it took 70 years to wear down the pistons of an instrument and the horn itself is in perfect playing condition. 70 years. So I think we will all be perfectly fine pushing our valves in what ever way we want until we die and we can pass the instrument forward to the next generation so they can start pushing the valves how they like.

I love how he just completely roasts them with simple explaining, and does it so properly, for insults of course XD. Great rant love it XD

"Well lubricated for the players pleasure" Welp, I need some paper towels and a refill cause I just laughed so hard I spit a mouthful of pop all over my desk.

"Spit isnt as lubricantable as oil is" ~Trent Hamilton, 2016

I haven't played a brass instrument since about 1995 but I agree that the technique is certainly not going to harm your instrument. A criticism that I think could be more fairly leveled is that it could hurt your own wrist and hand. The correct ergonomic position for almost any fine motor skill with the fingers is to have a curved finger. Ask any instrument teacher that uses any kind of fingering from wind to string to piano even percussion or computer typing or knitting... It doesn't even have to be an instrument. They'll tell you that flat fingers put more stress on the tendons in the wrist and hand and can more rapidly lead to tendonitis, carpel tunnel, or other repetitive stress injuries. Forget the horn, think of your hand.

who the hell spits in their pistons? xD

Common sense. Might be a rare thing these days...

Now I want carrot stick pistons! heh!

who cares how you have your fingers on the valves it's how you feel comfortable

I've seen young players with short fingers having terrible trouble with valves sticking, primarily because they have cheap instruments and they don't operate the valves with a downwards pressure but a diagonal pressure which causes them to jam. An adult with experience would have no issues with the valves sticking on the same instrument, but put pressure on the valve at an angle and it gets tight until it's pulled up and comes square in the barrel again. The other issue as you say is the valves are hard, but the barrel is a soft material. If the valve has any lateral pressure then the hard metal valve is going to rub the sides of the case. It doesn't need any lateral movement to do this, the mere pressure is transferred onto the case from the valve. However, to do any discernable damage would take an awful lot of operations of the valve. When I was learning to play, valve oil was forbidden, the only thing you put near your insrument was water.

today is my first band concert I'm a baritone I'm excited and nervous

And this is why I play the trombone ;)

Theen.

Something I used to find with my trumpet, was that if you pressed the valve down with too much sideways pressure, the valve would tend to stick down and be reluctant to rise back up. I had the opinion that it was squeezing against the film of moisture in the valve casing and, clinging to it, much like if you press your hand against a wet window pane.

his face in the thumbnail 😂

never heard of bending a valve until now I was just taught to curl my fingers to prevent carpal tunnel syndrome

A couple things to take into consideration, though. Please note that I am not criticizing how you play, and I am not criticizing the points you made in this video. I would also ask that you not criticize the points I bring up, and do some some research into what I am talking about (DCI) before you rebuttal. Deal? I have studied the playing techniques used by numerous drum and bugle corps, some of which are the top in the world. The players are capable of playing complex runs at very high tempos, and while part of it has to do with them practicing 14 hours a day for 3 months, another huge factor is their finger technique. You see, in the Open Class of Drum Corps International, the majority of performers are high school students who have never participated in DCI before. They initially struggle with playing the complex runs their shows call for, until their finger technique is "corrected". Simply by playing with their fingertips, they are able to play faster and with more precision. You may consider just blowing this off as a placebo effect, but then doesn't that still support my argument that it does improve it? Another example comes from the World Class (and former Open Class champions) drum corps "Oregon Crusaders". In their 2017 brass manual (linked here oregoncrusaders.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/OC17_BRASS_MANUAL.pdf), in the section titled "Finger Technique" it says: "When playing all musical passages, we recommend pressing the valves down with authority, while keeping a relaxed feel in the wrists and fingers. Do not lose control of the valve on the way back up. The fingers should be rounded and the tips should press the valve straight up and down. If a player pushes the valves on an angle, the valves will stick and make technical passages unplayable." This corps uses instruments made by System Blue, the manufacturer of the best (opinion) marching brass in the world. So even with high quality instruments, they understand that with moving parts in any machine, no matter how precise those fittings are, there are still problems. In the microscopic area between the valve and the casing, the oil typically resides. When pushing the valves down at at angle, it can cause the valve to scrape closer, if not on the casing, causing friction. While it could be seen as a small problem with little significance at an individual scale, for these groups with their 80-man hornline playing a triplet run at 220 bpm, it can be a huge problem in a matter of seconds. This applies to every drum corps, from smaller and less experienced groups such as the Guardians, to mid-range world class corps like Oregon Crusaders (System Blue) and Spirit of Atlanta (Adams), to top 12 corps like Phantom Regiment (Jupiter), to even the top 3 corps that are Carolina Crown (Yamaha), Blue Devils A (System Blue), and the Bluecoats (Yamaha). So what I think the most important thing to take away from this comment is that it does really depend on what sort of group you are playing with, and everyone's mileage varies. I personally saw a massive improvement in how I played when I switched my finger technique to playing with the fingertips. I can also apply a similar principle to trombone, with how I hold the slide. Some people when first learning are taught to hold it with all of your fingers, so that they are less likely to lose control and have it go flying. I later learned to hold it with just two fingers and my thumb, so that I would have a more relaxed grip so that I could play faster and with more precision. One of my friends played with just one finger and a thumb, but then after joining the top jazz ensemble at my state's best university for music, he learned to play with two fingers and a thumb, and he saw massive improvements. So maybe there is something to it all then? Maybe it won't break your instrument, but maybe it does actually improve your playing? But what do I know. The few examples of me playing that are on KZfaq are awful, so take everything I've said with a barrel of salt.

you've obviously never heard of Uri Geller....there's a reason you never saw him playing the trumpet !

Hey Trent, what is your take on dry vs. wet lipped playing? I am a trumpet player who has to play with pacific ocean lips or I feel like I can't control which partial I'm in. Is one way better or is it just personal preference?

Playing with flat fingers is often shamed a bit into in more professional studies, but rather because it avoids less presition, specifically for fast pieces or extracts. The common agreement is for arched fingers, naturally relaxed, arched hand and fingertips on the valves. My Conservatory's professor eveb suggest that this position follows the logistic of natural arched and relaxed hand placement on other instruments such the piano, violine, flute, cello, etc. It is simply agreed that a natural curve releases tention therefor providing relaxation and presition. Of course I have seen a good amount of players use flat fingers fine, yet I strongly believe on the straditional conservatory method. Relaxed hand placement.

I always laugh at the finger position nazis. I assume they once took lessons with Professor Snigglegruber, and he taught them the 'only' way to play.

I never will mess up my brass instruments valves. Trombone master race!!!!

I've been a trumpet player for years. It doesn't really matter how you press them down as long as you press them straight down.

Telling it, like it is, no quarter, listen and comprehend.......

I really appreciate this video because I've gotten a lot of crap for similar stuff and I just get mad because hey I'm playing all the right notes in the right rhythm so why does anyone care? I've had one of my instruments for 8 years and the only issue I've ever had is a stuck mouthpiece, and that was someone else's fault.

Whenever anyone says "this" is the one and only correct technique and "that" is wrong, you can find a professional at the highest level doing "that". As a child taking piano lessons with Mrs. Mahan, she chided me for holding my hands too flat and not arching my fingers enough. She even took a pin sometimes, believe it or not, and if I let my hands droop too low would stick me in the wrist. Some years later I noticed that Vladimir Horowitz held his hands EXACTLY as low as I did. Apparently, he did not have Mrs. Mahan as a teacher.

This is why, Kent's channel is one of my favorites.

I understood this was more of a potential issue with bottom sprung valves common in British brass bands of yesteryear. However I was always told that using finger pads was to protect against carpal tunnel syndrome which could end your career as a professional.

It's not about bending the valve. It's about technique. You have more control and speed by placing the flat pads of your fingers (not the tips vertically, but horizontally) on the valves. Playing with the middle to lower parts of your fingers across the valves is only making your job harder. If you care to rant further, take it up with every trumpet player I've ever studied under...from my 6th grade band director through present day.

also with valve lubrication, with any good quality synthetic valve oil, you will also be protecting the valves from wearing away as much and oxidation.

When I'm playing valves, I vary whether I play with my finger tips or the pads of my first digits, curling the fingers to varying degrees keeps my fingers from aching. Just like when I play my main instrument, slide trombone, the way I hold the instrument with my left hand isn't usually the way I was taught.

Heck, if you can still play the instrument, I see no reason why the way you hold your valves should matter. Assuming it's at least a decent quality instrument.

I have my son push the valves with his finger tips to promote technique, he's only 8. If he were of a talent like Al Hirt, well, then that's a different story. To suppose that one would damage a valve by using the overlapping fingers is absurd. Most of the strong Jazz players do exactly that. Take a peek at Wynton Marsalis playing classical, uses the finger tips, then when he plays Jazz, he overlaps. Those who critique most likely cannot play worth crap.

It needed to be said! Thank goodness Trent took the trouble to do so. There's a lot of old tosh written about this, especially as attempted explanations of why valves stick.

Hi Trent you are right, keep a car well maintained, and it will run 500000 km with ease. Those pistons are a lot shorter than in an instrument and are always pressing sideways. And with the speed and times they go up and down you have to play more than 100 years continuously before they wear out And you are pressing right, your fingers will feel it when pressing the valve is slightly more difficult.

DCI uses a curved fingertip technique because they want everyone to be uniform and that makes it a bit easier to play technical runs, they don't do it because of bending a valve.

Not that I disagree, but Brass and Monel (the alloy used in most high end valves) are much softer metals than steel, titanium, etc, which would be the conventional "metal" metals. It is possible to bend solid brass of the thickness of a valve stem, with enough strength and focus. Is that going to happen with the 70 grams it takes to play a valve? no, and you're right. But several 10 million little presses will slowly make an impact. (not that anyone but the most professional would ever play their valve that much) Also, the whole valve is not one solid block. The monel (or stainless steel, if they're cheap) valve core is attached by some way to the brass stem. A good instrument will have the brass extend deep into the middle, with a strong mechanical connection. Cheap ones may make it shorter, or horrors, use an adhesive. If something fails, it would be this connection i suspect, not the stem itself. I do know of an instance (not personally) where the stem separated from the core entirely. And it is theoretically possible that it may have been caused by lateral pressure. Of course, it was the most cheapest of instruments.

Well, back in the 70s I had an early make of Yamaha 4v euphonium - brand new. As I broke it in - valves stuck regularly and had to have lots of oil and be very clean, minimal muck and you had to clean the valves and casings before they worked right again. It seemed to be better after break in, and the horn sang well (very soft brass), and got lots of medals with it. But I noticed that the break in on it was so tight that when others played it, the valves would stick, and not for me. That was my personal experience with an early one. I have a nice silver plated one now, and it doesn't seem to have any of those issues and I got it used. The tubas I use are at least 100 years old and I have to use Ultapure Light Bearing oil as valve oil to have them play well enough for me, so I wonder with extreme wear, how that would add up. I have a bud who had a compensating yamahonk tuba and the valves were such a pain to get broken in that he finally had the shop go through it, and now its ok to play. I just offer this as anecdotal experience. With that early 70s horn, when I finally got through college - it was kind of spent. I was disappointed with it as I figured a good horn will last a couple of generations with care, and so when I was out of college and finally had money, I bought a miraphone 4v rotary euphonium - sort of a 186 in 3/4 scale. That horn was as nice as I bought it when I sold it 30 years later. So there's an entry in the 'for what its worth' column.

Uh I use rotary values so I don't have that problem

the only real worry about lateral pressure is when you are moving the valve continually while applying pressure to the side of the valve. this will cause the valve to scrape, even if it is a very small angle, against the side of the valve casing. we all know this would be detrimental to the smooth flow of the valve. out of all my band teachers over the years that's the most stressed lesson out of them, along with practice and maintaining your instrument.

I freaking died when you said "that ends today's sermon". Awesome content as always

The only reason why I press my valves straight up and down is to make it easier to press my valves down quickly for sixteenth-note runs. I honestly don't see physical damage as a reason to stop, I personally just see that it is easier to play passages with rapid fingering changes.

I do have to say after playing my Bach Stradivarious for nearly 20 years i did have to get my valves lapped becuase of using bad techniue with my fingering technique. It was only on the top part of the valves but yes it still happens. I take very good care of my trumpets but im not going to change if i have to pay my horn tech $40 every 20 years I say screw it play however makes you comfortable.

The only thing anyone should be concerned about as far as their finger position on the valve is that their fingers are comfortable and can quickly press the valves down. There's no one way that is correct for everyone because everybody's fingers are different.

Ah, I like my trombone, no valves to worry about, I also like "lubricity". It's fun to say. I've had Olds trombones of a similar age as your mellophone that have had some real chrome loss. This makes sense with the leverage of a slide running out to 7th. I didn't see any chrome loss on your mellophone and like you said, that also makes sense too.

Apart from playing technique issues, my well-made valves tend to stick more when I'm not pressing straight down. Lube, cleaning, etc., help, but I've still had occasional problems. Also seems to happen only when air pressure is being applied by actually playing. Exercising valves rapidly: no stick. Actually playing: stick. Lots going on. Would take significant research to prize it all apart.

I'd like to see the monster that can bend valves with his bare fingers.

My olds ambassador cornet is a very reliable cornet. So i understand that the olds brand is a good brand.

Does it matter? Not especially in the short term... Very-longer term (ie: years of use), yes, a little lateral pressure (and let's be clear, what part of the finger you press the button with isn't a guarantee that you are putting lateral pressure on, or that you're not if using the commonly preferred fingertips) is going to cause problems. It's attrition (tens of thousands of strokes, if not more) that is going to cause the pistons and casings to wear unevenly - I've seen plenty of instruments with issues like that... Heck, I even own one - my sisters old Benge flugel, which she played from about 7 years old, developed unevenly worn valves due to years of gentle lateral pressure (she played with fingertips, but a 7 year olds hands vs a big flugel bell are going to be stretched). Don't dismiss it just because you haven't (yet) experienced it - nor do you want to give players the idea that playing with lateral pressure is fine... but let's also be clear (again) that it's pressing the valves down straight that is imperative, not which part of the finger you use.

you are absolutely correct/ the worse thing that is going to happen is that the the horn will break in the way you play it

I have a problem. The bell of my trombone - echoes only in Bb first and second octave. Something like a hall is heard. All solders are ok, no loose parts. When I put my hand on the logo, it stops echoing in Bb. The bell was bent and fixed from a repairman. Most probably this is the cause. My question is how can this mysterious problem be fixed ? Ivan Sofia, Bulgaria

Your fingering is optimal daily compressivebecause your fingers have similiar the same length.(beware a bit short but not to much as thick)But you work more on embouschure then lingering the fingering.

0:25 "...saying *N Y E E E E E H!*"

tl;dr: If you have a crap instrument with sloppy valves, you'll wear them out even faster by not babying them as much as possible. Otherwise, you're possibly sacrificing speed for comfort or vice versa with your preferred hand position.

I play a Willson 2950 euphonium in very good shape, but sometimes I notice with my first valve that I have to push it exactly up and down, otherwise it is likely to stick! I've had to train myself not to put any sideways angled pressure onto that valve. I'm not sure the reason.

Great reasoning, Trent! The point being is that many students are told how to place their fingers, and it's made clear to them that is is gospel. No negotiating possible. I've seen fantastic jazz players for whom finger placing is no issue whatsoever.

Great video Trent, I agree 100%. I prefer to use the tips of my fingers though just because I feel like I can push them down faster and easier that way, but I need to get out of the habit of using the middle part of my fingers =/

I have a olds ambassador trumpet it's an amazing trumpet

Is it better to play with gloves or no gloves. I've never thought about my finger position. I just play.

My own experience is that if I use the 'fat finger' / 'over the top' finger method, the valves often don't go all the way down. If I push the valves down directly with the 'pads' of my fingers, this problem of valves not being depressed all the way does not happen. That's my version of common sense.

See while playing with flat fingers isn’t technically bad for the instrument, playing more on the fingertips will allow you to play faster and have better control, especially during more technically demanding excerpts

He has the battalions backup on his wall

Finger tech is important. I gave myself a tendonitis by having flat fingers instead of curved ones when I started with the sax. Metal fatigue is not something I consider. I consider human flesh fatigue, and curved fingers reduce it. My instrument will wear out this way or another, even with perfect tech, I care much more about my tendons than anything. Note: I don't actually know you at all at this point this is the second video I've seen...I'm just making a general statement.

Should I tell you that you're going to break your valves anyway, just to piss you off?

I have been using them like that and had to oil them every time

I was told it is more for the player than the instrument. It is more natural for the hands, with the least amount of energy, to bend in the curled fashion pushing straight down on the valves. similar to how you play piano. just what I was taught

I use a mixture of hand and finger postures. Whatever is comfortable.

Thank you Trent! I've been trying to say that for years!

Amen!

Great video. Even better with the commenter noise at the beginning.

From what I know, you can't bend the valves from playing with the long part of your fingers like that but you can't play as accurately and quickly than you can with the tips of your fingers

How to fix if the valve not coming back up after I oil

i have a question- if you dont press the instrument into your lips, is it okay to hook your pinky into the ring? my director always yells at me for it but i dont press into my face at all

I teach my students to have good finger technique for the sake of the dexterity of the player to be able to get the best out of the music he is playing.......but also to help the instrument work at it's best. In my experience - and I have a lot of experience - instruments, even expensive ones - do wear over a period of time and are sensitive to the way a player presses valves down. One example - a pro friend of mine played the same top quality tuba for many years and had a very pronounced way of pressing valves down where the the second and third fingers pressed from the side with some lateral pressure - and he never had a problem with his valves. Now ccasionally when he let another player have a go on his instrument, the second and third valves valves would stick, nearly every time. The only possible reason for that is that the valves have worn because of the way the owner presses the valves down. Metal is strong, yes, but it is not infallible. Having a rant is all very well, but if you film yourself using poor finger technique, you can expect comments about it. It doesn't look good, it gives a poor example to people looking in AND it is not good for the instrument, cheap, expensive or otherwise. Rant over ;-)

I would've thought if someone were to complain about your grip, it would be more for carpel tunnel or what have you. That seems to make more sense to me, still probably an unnecessary worry, though.

Anyone notice the first valve on the instrument

Could you do some woodwind videos?

6:35 HE REDEEMS HIMSELF!!!! THANK YOU!!!

I still stand by a curved vertical finger placement, but then again I'm classically trained, and thus I adhere to the norms.

1:50 yeah...I would hope not...

Keeping your fingers curved has nothing to do with damaging the valve casing as this video suggests. Perhaps, people have said that to you but they would be wrong. It has to do with muscle structure the fact that flattening out your fingers puts tension in all the muscles in your hand, which slows you down. If you curve your fingers, your hands would be more relaxed, and you can play passages faster/in time.

TBH if you play it by blowing air and pressing valves it's fine by me. my valves have basically no room for wiggle, I literally have to shake my valve into my instrument because it's so tight despite oiling.

"Try to outshine the tuba!". Hahah, love it! :P

Nice one! But what is this "iffet" you keep expending?

Why does he sound like Squidward when he is like "well it happened to me"😂

I have no clue why I'm watching this, I'm a tenor sax player and a pianist 😂😂

I've noticed that James Morrison also does not finger with the tips of his fingers.

You supposed to curve the fingers (at least for trumpet)

You're using your fingers to play your instrument. Everyone knows you use your knees EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEH

Where could I get brass band sheet music? I'm looking to get into it.

The only way to have a maximum of control (and to be sure to put a full down force without lateral one) is the right way, it's just physics man... and maybe you need to play more years the same instrument in a real bad way (with lateral force) to see what happen! (oval casing and piston inegal used). Resistance show friction, friction is possible with any tolerance parts, and friction is detruction! So if trumpet have smaller pistons, it's more difficult to detect it, but it's there (premature using). Tradition are often the key for real science...

And the instruments are all Yamaha the trumpet is a bloody xeno!

his valves are made of "mittle"

Look, the answer to proper valving technique is simple. The finger should accommodate the motion of the valve key. On a rotary valve instrument, the motion of the valve key describes an arc as it is depressed. On a piston valve instrument, the motion of the valve key is straight up and down. So, fingering the rotary valve with flatly held fingers works out, as they will also describe an arc when depressing a valve key. But, with piston valves, the fingers should be curled up and over, so that the finger tip can strike straight down while depressing the valve key. Now, this is proper technique. It has nothing to do with valve speed, or valve wear, or anything else. It's just a question being proper. Like wearing gloves while driving, or using your silverware from the outside in as laid out, or tipping your hat to a lady. Please people, we must maintain minimum standards of deportment, lest we all devolve to savagery.

Me, a trombone player: I know I’m using my valves wrong

I support your arbuments and i dont really care how you play. Just di what you feel like is best. I personally dont like the flat fingers beccause i dont have the same control over the Valves as with different grips. i fell very uncomfrortable when doing it that way and i have to say it sounds a lot worse. Now you could say that this is just my opinion, but many of my Friends share this and actually sound a lot worse than they actually could.