O yah that ocd a bitch sometimes when it Flyers up

Never too late! Unless ur dead.

Why are there so many videos about electroplating without one mentionning Hydrogen Embrittlement ? Are 99% of the youtubers uneducated ? Also all the web articles wrong ? Why is there 0 emphasis put on this embrittlement ? What do you recommend then to rejuvenate corroded fasteners.

Quiet man that's fascinating information you provided ! Thank you for your service in the metal finishing industry. How would you suggest the average person remove rust from metal? Chemical , media blast , electrolysis ? What method removes the rust effectively in a timely manner but does little to take good metal with it. Please give details.

Mainly high tensile steel (>1000 MPa) is affected by this (according to wikipedia). So for high tensile strength bolts, yes. But much less of a problem for many other steel parts I suppose.

​@@zjeng1Which ones are high tensil bolts in a car ?

Hey quiet man a question, After alot of arguments about Ospho or phosphoric acid used on automobiles to address rust, what's the best way to neutralize acid for using a epoxy, urethane type primer or paint? I know I can clean with mineral spirits and use rustoleum, but what if using the above mentioned? Thank you so much.

Quadflopper101 Muriatic acid is hydrochloric acid. Vinegar is acetic acid. Lemon juice is citric acid. Don’t knock the chemists; they know more than you do. And they can spell!

here's the difference between the acids. thanks. kzfaq.info?o=U&video_id=5Bkdej_z1HI

will Coke Zero work? my bike's on a diet.....

+ΓΛBIПθΓθJθ I’m on my way! 👍

Glad it was helpful!

Good advice. To that I'll add that in dynamic application where there is load cycling, the potential of FATIGUE FAILURE increases with the length of in-service life of the fastener/material. All structural materials have a 'fatigue endurance limit' for use in cyclical load applications - for most common steels, typically at 30% of ultimate tensile strength PLUS about 1 million load cycles above or near that 'endurance limit'. Exceed that endurance limit and most assuredly the part/component/fastener WILL fail, and catastrophically without warning. Fatigue happens along the macro 'grain boundaries' of the metal, weakens the material ..... and in corrosive service (consider wintertime road salt), allows chemicals, salts, etc. to enter INTO and along the metal grain boundaries which then propagate internal corrosion of the metal for 'further' weakening. Imagine if your bolt has begun to develop micro-fatigue cracks and you then 'soak' them in muriatic/hydrochloric acid and that acid has penetrated into the base metal via these microscopic CRACKS. For critical structure and their 'fasteners' in cyclic load bearing service, the best course is to ALWAYS replace the fasteners with NEW (to the exact same LOAD rating). That way your control arms, steering links, your 'hard' brake lines, your calipers, your engine/transmission mounting bolts, your 'universal joint' bolts, etc. etc. won't fall apart/off at the least expected timing. If you really want to clean the rust from a bolt or stud (or steel tool), etc. there's a much better and simpler way: Firstly a brief clean-up with a rotating wire wheel to remove the 'loose stuff'. Followed by - *BOILING the part in plain WATER* for a half an hour or more (the longer 'the boil', the better). What will happen is the remaining RED (ferric) rust will begin to convert to BLACK (ferrous) rust. RED rust is destructive; BLACK rust is 'protective' - similar to the 'blueing' finish on firearms. Lastly & after assembly, spritz on some *BOESHIELD T9* which is a wax-like metal protectant ... used extensively on aircraft and other 'critical' maintenance venues. Hope this helps. www.amazon.com/BOESHIELD-Corrosion-Protection-Waterproof-Lubrication/dp/B001447PEK/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1522078033&sr=8-1&keywords=boeshield+t9&dpID=417rK6tOOoL&preST=_SY300_QL70_&dpSrc=srch

Great point, as clamping force is the main point of fasteners. I've seen many machinists use Evaporust to remove rust without impacting the structure of the part being treated. They even use it on parts that are precision ground/scraped.

Ive used rusty bolts for years and years never had any failures.

So have I, but I'm pretty choosy about which to use again and which to discard - I wouldn't use de-rusted or reclaimed cylinder head suds or bolts, for example.

greenspiraldragon there cheap use new ones.

Deox C is better

Somewhere 35-37%. The bottle had been standing for a while

The ratio was arbitrary, but taken concentrated enough to get a fast result. Hydro chloric acid is best in this regard unless you go mixed and more complicated acids. It is however not dissolving at the same rate, the rust (iron oxide) dissolves much faster because it is porous and the acid have easier access. Good point! Regards!

you better think again, if you don't remove the rust, the rusty bolt overheats when trying to remove and it breaks! bad news.

@@31acruz at that point it's better to replace the hardware.

@@chinchillaintheheat2641 exactly, and if you try to remove that nut off the bolt to replace it without removing the rust from the bolt.. you will break it. Unfortunately some of these bolts like a rear fascia mounting bolt are welded to the frame, you "really" can not afford to snap that bolt and break it. You have to deal with the rust or you will break it.

Not as strong as HCL

In principle, all the rust you remove has no strength at all in itself. If you would go to the shop and buy rust dissolver you would likely get something based on phosphorus acid. The reason is that chloride, as in hydro chloric acid, can bond and stay with the metal (iron) and its corrosive there as well, that is if you expose the parts you have cleaned to water, i.e. in the future. Nothing beats hydrocholoric acid in efficiency though, and if you have used it you should make sure that you treat the part in an alkaline bath as well, to neutralize the chloric acid. I have no issue with using most of the above bolts again, because if you think about it, I have only removed useless surface rust. On one bolt in the video, you can see that the neck has rusted away extensively. This bolt was thrown away. There is no good reason to compromise safety. Good luck! PS. If you chose any of the other acids you mention, a bit of heat will speed up your progress.

Got it. Thanks for replying.

Yes it should work but best is to try since concrete is alkaline and you need to have it acidic after you have mixed everything

Rust forms as a consequence of iron interaction with water. Now, if you paint or clear coat your part so absolutely 0.00% water gets in under the coating, the remaining rust won't do much in converting iron into rust (iron oxide). The problem is that such paint or clear coat does not exist. All paints and clear coats are letting through a little bit of water with time, and it is referred to as 'permeability of plastics'. The 'permeability of plastics' explain why you sometimes get your medicine in aluminum sheets. That is because the drugs are very sensitive to water (humidity), and the suppliers want to be sure that no water gets through during the shelf-life of the drugs. Aluminum is completely impermeable. What folks do in the car business is thus to use the best possible option, since they cannot seal their cars with aluminum. They remove as much rust as possible because the rust in itself attracts more water than pure iron does, then they use paint (rust specified paint) that contains zinc because the zinc reacts with water before the water reacts with the iron (as a sacrifice metal). Some companies claim that they have the coating/paint that is completely sealing out the water so they don't need the zinc in the paint, but that is not true since no such paint/coatings exist. However, there are better and worse coatings towards sealing out the water. So, basically the answer is that no painting/coating will forever seal your iron against water but with a good coating you will make new rust formation happen much slower. If you also have the zinc in there, it will take even more time for the conversion of iron into rust to happen, but even in this case there is a day when the zinc has been consumed and water will be there again. Thanks for good input!

when it comes to cleaning you have level one ,level two or level three .. etc .. oxygen and moisture must be present to create rust. paint will stop both from getting to the metal but when the paint gets old and fails then rust starts . rust will destroy a metal and it will take some time .. how long has to do with moisture ,salt, oxygen ..no Mather it takes a long time for metal to fail in most application ..for a bolt to fail in a car you have approx. 10 years or more .you can use anode to slow the rust problem .

Thank you for your comment. I think that in your case, in the particular case of phosphoric acid, the neutralization is not a big problem and only rinsing with water will take you far. The reason is that the process of rusting is related to the ability of the iron atoms with their acidic nature to interact with the water and the oxygen to form first hydrolyzed iron atoms that then quickly is converted into iron oxide, which is what is referred to as rust. The use of phosphoric acid as a rust remover is based on the benefits that the iron atoms prefer to strongly bond with the negative phosphorus atoms instead of hydrolyzing and oxidizing, which is a result of fundamental chemistry and acid basis theories related to the formation of certain solid precipitate before others (descriptive inorganic chemistry, I recommend reading Wulfberg). Having said this, I think that you are in a quite good position just to paint on the iron phosphate surface that you have after treating the surface with phosphoric acid and the bonding with any epoxy or thermoset paint should be excellent. If you instead use a thermoplastic paint, like most spray paints, then you could benefit from using a rust converter that contains both phosphoric acid and tannic acid. The tannic acid provides a more paint compatible surface since it is some hydrocarbon structures in the tannic acid resulting surface. A final comment, you still have an issue of not knowing how much you have converted your surface into iron phosphate because it is a surface reaction so always try to brush off as much as possible of the rust first. You can actually check your phosphors iron converted surface with a victorinox knife, scratch it and you will see if rust comes out under the black coat that you have formed. Good luck!

Any paint store, as muriatic acid, which is the trade name. Thanks for watching!

He did it 50/ 50

I have tried freezing vinegar and remove the solid ice (water) as prep the vinegar to increase the acetic acid on rusted bolts with results.

Mr Muscle in the grocery store or similar sewage drain cleaner works equally well. I used chemical grade NaOH but it doesn’t make a difference. Thx for comment!

The part that adds to corrosion in the long run, from reminding acid, is relate to the counter ion. If you would have sulphuric acid, then it’s the sulphate group, if you have hydrochloric acid then it’s the chloride group. In this case of phosphoric acid, then the phosphorus group is bonded into the new surface so rinsing is in most cases good enough and the phosphorus group as bonded into iron phosphate is not catalyzing more rust

@@Ken_Sweden what if I don't risen phosphoric acid before painting? Will it corroded under the paint?

Douglas Thompson sorry Doug, I missed your comment. The answer is that it basically means how much hydrogen atoms you have as hydrogen ions in your solution. However the p doesn’t stand for ‘presence’ of the hydrogen in the solution. The problem is that the concentrations range over so big numbers, from very small to extremely large numbers, so someone had to figure out how to get it on a scale from 1 acidic to 14 alkaline, without 50 millions of digits after a comma. And to be correct the p stands for the negative logarithm of the H (concentration of hydrogen).

Potential of hydrogen =PH (nerds huh?)

+Cherev Kodesh interesting, have you got a link? Please post!

Never made a vid about that, I'll consider it.

Yes! Of the 37%

+Just For Fun yes you can do as you say, neutralize first and then dip water. The chloric ions from the acid have to be eliminated. One way is to use a torch, heat until red and dip cool in oil. Thanks for comment!

Ken Sweden thx

Very tight, no problem, but I exchanged the bad ones.

Why?

I completely agree! The only time I use muriatic acid is when I'm looking to dissolve the sludge and rust in an old gas tank.

For lighter rust on smaller objects, sure, wire wheels are just fine. I'm confident it'd take more than 15 seconds a piece for anything with heavier rust.

That’s ok if you only have a couple of bolts. Using a wire wheel

This also works to remove rust stains from fiberglass. It solvates the iron oxide so it can dissolve into the cleaning solution to be rinsed away.

It’s the same acid, only labelled by trade name as muriatic acid. Normally technical grade, meaning guaranteed 70 % purity, whereas I used 99 % but that doesn’t matter, the strength is the same. Thanks for bringing this up!

Thanks. And now I know what muriatic acid really is.

I cleaned a PC board from salt residues in isopropyl alcohol, pure, by completely immersing it for awhile. Then air dry. No water. Best look it up. Good luck

You have to be there and watch it. Depends on the nature of the rust. Can go fast or slow. As soon as everything is gone, then stop the process. Thanks for input, and good luck w your project!

+Frank Beaulieu I kept only some of them, new ones are relatively cheap and the video was for demonstration. Ultimately I put some antiseize on them only since these bolts rust less than the Jeep frame anyway, which is being fixed now. Thanks for comment.

@@Ken_Sweden Cool thx man !

I have one of the nails in my other video running now since 2 days ago,in the acid, and dissolving the metal is very very slow - at least 100 times slower. I will check it and get back with a better estimate.

It has crossed my mind that a paste with acidic components/chemicals inside would have been a nice thing to paint on and then blow it off with water. Possibly there are already something like that, and maybe that is what they put into rust converters. They are called rust converters but surely there is noting in rust converters that brings back the original iron, its a scientific impossibility. The only thing that brings back the iron is electrochemical processes that would do the reverse to what you see in the video, but then the problem is that the iron formed is not as strong as the original iron because it becomes porous. Myself I stick with this, and if it's too corroded resulting in too much pitting showing after acid elimination, then I only replace the part. On a panel you could just paint on the acid solution and let it sit if its flat but be careful with the acid and make sure you neutralize the surface after. The surface you get is perfectly fine to prime and then paint. Good luck and thanks for your comment.

boo boo tell use more about this process. Do you think that would work on a car frame?

I use large Rubbermaid watering tubs for larger items.

nick mcarr Vinegar is acetic acid.

For steel and iron, you can do a mix of 40 grams caustic soda + 25 grams of sodium carbonate + some detergent (all per litre) and then heat it so it simmers. Let them sit in there for 10-15 min. This is basically the toilet cleaner + washing powder + liquid hand washing detergent. However, be aware and definitely use eye protection. Lots of folks believe acids in the eyes is the worst. That’s not true, alkaline (like the above) are the worst. If you splash this - your vision will be instantaneously, irreversibly and permanently blurred. You cannot use it on aluminum or zinc, it will erode your metal. If you want to go solvents, the stoddard solvents are the strongest but road tar is often too tough sitting, and I have had limited success. In the old times they used chlorinated stuff in there, which is banned today. This stuff is still used in some paint dissolvers but it is very nasty - it’s carcinogenic. For solvent based I recommend normal petrol (gasoline). I am always surprised how well it dissolves stuff and I have no clue what they put in there. Good luck.

Replying to my own comment, no it won't dissolve aluminium oxide.

No, it has No relevance

true, but the sandblasted appearance comes from the rust that has been dug into the surface and then was dissolved. materials scientists call in pitting.

its a surface effect of the metal, just a scrape on it and it becomes shiny. I show it here: kzfaq.info?o=U&video_id=5Bkdej_z1HI

The best way to treat iron if you wish to prevent rust is to look at how experts are treating iron in historical monuments. They use something called in Swedish 'blymönja', which resembles something like a 'lead paste with tar similar properties'. This sort of rust prevention is banned in many European countries for private citizens to use because it contains lead oxide but allowed for historical restorations. Lead oxide was dominantly mined in Spain in the 18 century and I would not be surprised if this was used in some cannons or ships coatings .

Rust converters are based on tannic acid, from tree sap, a very particular acid, in the old times they used this acid as in wood shaves to put togehter with the tools in the toolboxes, to prevent rusting. However, tannic acid is a weak acids, and therefore they complement with phosphoric acid to speed up the conversion in rust converters. Here i show phosphorous acid as compared to the above: kzfaq.info?o=U&video_id=5Bkdej_z1HI

+FclefRules Good point, should have been highlighted. 'Always Add Acid' ...to avoid water hitting the surface of an acid - splashing in your face because the water heats so much that it starts boiling.

Not very important with hydrochloric acid, you can really add it either way and it doesn't heat up too much. Sulfuric acid is the one to AAA.

highlighted relevant comment in this video, thanks. kzfaq.info?o=U&video_id=5Bkdej_z1HI

"Do as you oughta, pour acid into water" :)

I was to how to remember this, you put your ass in the water, not the water in your ass.

+Jack black if you want to know, then search the msds sheet for the product. I just did and you’re right - orthophosphoric acid

No it's a demonstration video and this method works in complicated areas.... Bench grinder has limited work area

Timmy! Not everyone has a bench grinder

Not under these conditions. The major concern here is the use of hydrochloric acid ( H+ Cl-) and some comments refere to that below. The chloride ions are corrosive in nature and many rust dissolvers are therefore based on phosphorous acid (with phosphorous ions instead of chloride). However, there are ways to get around this and one is to torch the bolts so the chloride ions go into gas. Regardless, most of the iron is still inside the bolts and is never effected. One should also remember that chloride ions are present on our roads and also made the bolts rust in the first place. All the best and thanks for watching!

Hydrochloric acid does react with iron. The bubbling you see is hydrogen gas being formed by the reduction of H+ by elemental iron. The reaction of hydrochloric acid with iron oxide would only form ferric chloride and water and wouldn't cause bubbling. I think it's more a matter of rust dissolves faster, there's less of it, and it's all on the surface.

yes HCl will attack the steel too. Ken could show this by heating the HCl and leaving in longer.

+dontswin ...yeah, I am not aware of any Apple cider vinegar that is not organic. Anyway, Heat them in the vinegar and your bits will be like new!

It is much much more difficult to dissolve the iron in itself than the rust because the rust is porous if you would look at it in a microscope. However, since HCl is very active I would not just dump it in there and leave it. Based on the results I had on 50:50 you are 1/4 in concentration so possibly you would have the same result in 6-8 hours but it is also dependent on the nature of your rust. If it is very porous rust it will go faster. I would try and see what happens after 3 hours, the eating of the metal is very slow and the reactions slowed down at the end when most of it was dissolved. It's however always important to neutralize your metal object surfaces after the rust removal by using some sodium hydroxide of similar alkaline chemical. Cheers and thanks for the comment!

Hi Ken, Thanks for a very informative video and response. Unfortunately, I have to work blind on this one,as I have placed the solution inside an old air compressor tank which had rusted away for years of use. The tank has only small holes 1/2" and 3/4" inches on it, hence, can't really see what's going on inside. With this I can only hope and guess perhaps that it has done it's job inside there. I have tried to pick a borescope / endoscope whatever it's called on ebay, but it will be weeks from now until it arrives. I've place the solution (1:8) yesterday evening, hence, it'll be 24hours when I get back tonight. I hope it hadn't really eaten through the metal now as hours had passed. (crossing fingers). The muriatic acid by the way in it's label says (15% HCL, 85% Aqueous vehicle), Aqueous Vehicle probably is water?. This is why I'm asking if it had ruined the integrity of the metal as I have left it longer than your experiment, although mine was (1:8) solution as to your 1:1. and yes, I have prepared baking soda, and will dissolve it in water upon flushing out the HCL solution. After the soda solution, I'm planning to flush again a rust converter inside, basically, shaking the tank so the rust converter covers the inside surface area of the tank. Maybe top it again with red lead after the rust converter dries.

I would do it in turns of 2 hours, eventually your tank will be clean :-)

First Fix0 hope it worked sounds like quite the project

Maximum 36-37% - and then 30 ml of it in 100 ml water

About 6 molar so there is a bit of window for heating if want it to go faster, this was at 20 Celsius 👍

Thank you for the information.