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Kennedy should have left Robert McNamara counting beans at Ford.

Substitute Avco Arrow for TSR and you have Canada’s version of the same story. The killer is the American aviation industry belittled the backwood engineers from Canada. After Arrow was killed, NASA hired these engineers to help put a man on the moon. A shameful chapter in Canadian history.

The Olympus engine was a Bristol design, not Rolls Royce. It only became a 'Rolls Royce' engine following the government sponsored take over of Bristol by Rolls in the later 1960's after the TSR 2 was dead and buried. A clue to the origin of British jet engines of this period is found in their names. Bristol engines were named after classical Greek mythology, Olympus, Pegasus,Proteus, etc. Rolls engines used rivers, Tyne, Dart, Avon, etc. DeHavilland engines all started with a G, Ghost, Goblin, Gyron, etc. Armstrong Siddeley used names of snakes, Viper, Mamba, etc. Most of these companies did in time disappear into Rolls Royce, but at the end of the 50's, early 60's were for the most part still independent companies.

There are 4 dimensions to any aircraft: length, width, height, politics. TSR.2 was excellent in 3 out of 4 of those dimensions.

TSR.2 and the Avro Arrow met very similar fates, and it's kind of sad to think back on.

The TSR2 cancellation has eerie similar points to Canada's Avro Arrow, the American government at the time, not wanting to be usurped by superior aviation engineering from the UK/Canada (UK engineers were heavily involved with the Arrow as well). But of note is the Labour Government of of Mr. Attlee in 1946/47 who approved the sale of the Rolls Royce Nene turbojet engine, to the Soviets, provided they were not used for military purposes. Stalin himself was quoted as saying "what fool will sell us his secrets?" Apparently the Labour government were not aware of the rapidly building "Cold War".

The greatest bit of self harm and vandalism in British government history.......and that's quite a achievement.

There was also a Marine variant of the Olympus engine which powered many Naval vessels including HMS Ark Royal. Would be interesting to see a Megaptojects or Sideprojects on the Olympus Engine.

My dad worked on TSR2 back in the 60s and actually helped build XR220. He thought all the prototypes had been destroyed and was very pleased to find XR220 (which he referred to as "my TSR-2") when we visited the Cosford museum. :) I remember talking to him about it a few years ago, everyone involved was angry about the way it was cancelled (in the middle of a budget speech so there was no chance of discussing the decision). Apparently at the time XR220 was virtually ready to go, the aircrew rushed back to the airfield to try and get the thing flying to present a second (and far more advanced) prototype to the government to prove the worth of the project. He did say however that in some ways it was right to cancel the project. The plane was just too advanced for its time and if any of the electronics had been hit by enemy fire it would have taken weeks to find where the damaged part was, let alone replace it. It was also designed for a very specific role, a tactical strike reconnaissance plane can only do 2 things, low level nuclear bombing (tactical strike) or reconnaissance. It wasn't flexible enough to be used for other things eg a normal bomber or a ground strike aircraft. There's no doubt it was far ahead of its time (how many planes could out-run a Lightning with only 1 working afterburner???) and the Yanks were very worried about its capabilities making their planes look silly, hence their eagerness to get rid of it. The MRCA project which eventually became the Tornado achieved about 80% of what TSR.2 was built to do, and that took the cooperation of 3 countries...

The instant the name Robert MacNamara came into the story, I knew what was coming next. To Her Majesty's Royal Air Force, for whatever it is worth, I am truly sorry for the loss of the TSR.2. Could've been one hell of an aircraft. If it's any consolation at all, the United States Army, Air Force, Navy and Marines loathed that guy just as much as you did. What a schmuck.

At the time it was called the Brain Drain and I moved to GD first in Rochester then to San Diego. A decade later I left GD and went into commercial electronics. I was always sad that the UK government paid for my education, indeed the gave me a small grant and they gained nothing for all that expenditure.

Thanks for presenting this tragedy of technology and to the economy. It's interestingly similar to the cancellation of the Canadian Avro Arrow. None of those airframes was allowed to survive, and the mass exodus of the skilled workers and the engineers to the US mirrors the loss of that talent from the UK. Methinks that duck had far-reaching influence.

Excellent video. I trained as an Airframe Fitter at Short Brothers in the 1980s and later I worked in Europe for contract agencies. I had the pleasure to work with quite a few men who had been involved with the TSR2. They spoke with deep pride about it and the technological breakthroughs it achieved; however, they were still angry at what they saw as a stab in the back by their own government.

Wow, this is like deja Vu. The exact same US playbook that was used to kill the Canadian aircraft industry and specifically the Avro Arrow

As a schoolboy living through these years and studying fitfully for A Levels whilst preferring the attractions of the local pub, I remember the furore about the cancellation and the subsequent F-111 order. There was a ditty popular at the time; "Oh the F-111, it is a wondrous plane. It flies at twice the speed of sound and scatters bombs like rain... Its wings go back and forward, It's the greatest thing around! But isn't it a pity they can't get it off the ground..." Always said it all to me about the whole sad affair really.

It also has to be remembered, there were those within the British establishment conspiring against the TSR2. There was also a lot of inter-service rivalry with the Royal Navy who wanted monies spent on nuclear subs and aircraft carriers. Louis Mountbatten was a good example of this. A high ranking naval officer, he naturally promoted the Buccaneer. Apparently, one tactic of his was to throw down 5 photos of the Buccaneer and one of the TSR2 and say ''Five of those for one of those".

1:56 background 3:58 sponsorship 5:41 proposals 9:35 specs and flight tests 12:56 the beginning of the end 16:43 the death of TSR.2

Shades of the Avro arrow

In the late 1960's, I was in a military audience listening to Sir George Edwards, the big cheese of the British Aircraft Corporation, he described dealing with the government as 'walking along the gloomy corridors of power looking for a faint glimmer of a coherent policy'!

This sounds exactly like what happened to the Avro Arrow 6 years earlier. How history repeats.

What happened to the TSR-2 was tragic but you will be surprised how much of the tech went into the Tornado. I worked on GR4’s and the TFR, engine control system, flight control system and other bits have there origins in the TSR-2. Even the brake fans were far ahead of the time, now being found on the Eurofighter Typhoon

My dad worked on this aircraft and was heartbroken when they scrapped it in such a nefarious fashion. A beautiful aircraft that looked like it was doing mach2 just sat in the hanger. Ironically i followed in his footsteps and watched Nimrod fly just before I left BAE, only to watch it on the news being smashed up by the new Labour government. Politicians are twits with a capital A

"Frankly, I do not believe that we will get much operational value out of the Canberra from 1955 onwards...The aircraft is already out of date..." Ironically, the Canberra was built under license in the US and operated by the USAF as the B-57/RB-57. It served in reconnaissance and interdiction bombing through the Viet Nam conflict and if I'm not mistaken, remained in US Air National Guard service in one capacity or another into the mid-1980s. I believe the airframe is still being used in some research capacity by NASA. Not bad for an aircraft that was declared "already out of date," by Air Vice Marshal Geoffrey Tuttle in 1952. It would seem the Canberra's utility has vastly surpassed Geoffrey Tuttle's.

A similar story as AVRO Canada's Arrow. It was signiificantly superior to the F-111 and the US forced Canada to destroy everything including all designs, airframes and the tooling.

The Americans being mad about better planes? Canada feels you via Avro Arrow

My father worked in the Air Ministry when TSR2 was cancelled. It came as a bit of a shock.

2:00 - Chapter 1 - Background 4:00 - Mid roll ads 5:45 - Chapter 2 - Proposals 9:40 - Chapter 3 - Specs & flight tests 13:00 - Chapter 4 - The beginning of the end 16:45 - Chapter 5 - The death of TSR.2

I've been in Cosford and I've spend almost an hour watching the TSR-2 prototype. I can't possibly imagine what would have been if this machine would have gone in production, but I've never seen anything as impressive as the TSR-2 is. Anyway, now I think it would be time to make a video about the Tornado, which is sort of "spiritual successor" to the TSR-2.

Simon, to continue the "Duck Based" analogy, I would suggest you look into the history of the British military's Lee Enfield replacement.... Rifle...Number 9, Mk 1. More often called the Janssen EM2. Chambered for a cartridge the Americans simply didn't want , the .280 British, so they basically stopped the project.....forced NATO to use their ammo, then, a few years later switched to the even smaller 5.56 x 45. Oddly enough the US military will soon start replacing that with a .277 cartridge....what goes around comes around.

With the cancelled TSR2 we look at it’s potential. The cancellation means we can look at the “what if’s?” of what the TSR2 ‘could’ have been. There’s the potential performance as compared to whatever the actual performance would have been had the aircraft gone into production and squadron service.

+1 for consistency in misspelling aircraft (in title and thumbnail)

Interesting to note that the only U.K. post war military aircraft project brought in under time and below budget was the Vickers Valiant and the English Electric Lighting, the letter was a test bed that was already flying as an English Electric research project.

Sounds very familiar... ah yes, the AVRO Arrow. The "great" American Military Industry will do whatever it can to suppress other industries. They did it with more than just the Arrow or the TSR2.

I've actually seen both of the surviving prototypes of this plane. It's a weird-looking one, but quite elegant in its weirdness. This _and_ the Arrow, huh? At least the Yanks didn't manage to kill the Harrier, Vulcan, or Tornado.

greater than mach 1 flight without the use of afterburner 🤔 i believe today they call that supercruise lol pretty high-tech for back then

15:53 *F4 Phantom II

The design was compromised from it's inception. Due to money being tight it had to use the same basic engine, the Bristol Olympus turbojet, as the Concorde. The F111 and Mirage-V both used more efficient turbofan engines. Although slightly smaller the F111 had a greater range with a greater weapons load, this being the main reason for the Australia's order. RR had offered a turbojet design for the TSR2 program, before the BAC design was selected but this engine could not be used on the Concorde. With the introduction of ballistic missiles it's roll as a strategic nuclear bomber was no longer required leaving the TSR2 to expensive for it's other intended roles. The later Tornado as we know was a lot small, uses turbofans and was not a true strategic bomber.

Great video. You should really do a story on the Canadian Avro Arrow. It was an amazing aircraft, decades ahead of its time, that was sadly killed off by politics.

It's not so much POLITICIANS as it is POLITICS itself. The politics of military leadership is as bad as anyone else anywhere else.

Very similar outcomes to the Avro Arrow here in Canada.

Blame-wise: Don't forget the role of Mountbatten (Navy) who wanted the Buccaneer and lobbied against the TSR.2 down under. Would Labour have won the '64 general election without the Profumo scandal? The Americans had a habit of sabotaging the UK (and other) aviation industry, ably assisted by the Labour party. We gave away key technology in an "information exchange" about the sound barrier (Miles Aircraft M52) without receiving anything in return. But my contempt mostly goes to Denis Healey. On the other hand, the decimation of the UK aviation industry meant a lot of aerodynamicists and engineers joined British motorsport manufacturing which now leads the world.

and the raf after all that problems with the tsr 2 ending up with the Tornado f2/f3 and the gr1/gr4 😊

The irony is that the Canberra found niches for which it remained in service for decades afterwards, and the US are famously still using a couple of very heavily modified version!

video suggestion would be interesting to see something on Monte Casino, the monastery was beautiful and since it is no longer with us I believe it's important to talk to the people who are unaware of it

Project Lead: " Okay, guys....we need a basic design for the TSR.2 and the deadline is coming up in one hour. What do we got?" 10-Yr-Old Holding a Paper Airplane: "I have an idea..."

echoes here of Canada's experience with the Avro Arrow.

What happened to the UK, it was once the toolbox of the world. Back in the day some of the best cars (E-Type), ships (Queen Mary/Queen Elizabeth), and aircraft (Spitfire) were built there. Seems time to get some politicians that put their countrymen first.

I read a number of years ago that the Chief of the Defence Staff had a big part to play in the decommissioning of the TSR2 project, in the late 50's CDS was from RAF followed early 60's Royal Navy, in 1965 CDS changed to Army and the incumbent disgruntled by the lack of defence budget allocated to the Army helped to end the project.

My dad built the avionics to this place!!! He was working for Vickers before they were forced to join British Aerospace

I've touched the TSR2 X222... after spending 10 mins stood gawping at the sheer size of the thing. The amazing thing about RAF Duxford is that they have the weapons that would have been carried as well. There is a connection between the Avro / BAC projects and it has to do with the Crown... in closing the projects and sending the engineers to the USA, the Crown could make more money... thats why Crown bought out the other nations that had bits of N.A. (southern states) who are controlled by The Plymouth Company. I'd reccomend going to Duxford if your ever anywhere near, go stand next to a Polaris Missile, a TSR2... one of Rommels command wagons and an anti-aircraft cannon that has a rotary mag just like a six-shooter, things freekin Huge.

I think those who have nuke the project should have been put on trial for treason… Imagine how it could have changed the shape of uk aircraft manufacturing…

But yet, many of the engineers who worked on the TSR.2 ended up working on a way more successful project: the Panavia Tornado. The Tornado could carry more weapons, especially weapons types.

I'll never forgive that over-promoted charlatan Mountbatten for helping to kill this plane.

My father was due to move onto TSR2 aircrew and, unsurprisingly, held very dim views of the politicians involved in its demise. Many years later, I was a passenger on an RAF VC-10 and someone had left an RAF Engineering magazine in the seat pocket, which contained an article detailing retrospective computer modelling of the TSR.2's airframe structure - as I recall, this modelling indicated that the huge stresses imposed during low level operations using the novel ground hugging radar system would likely have resulted in major structural failures. Of course, that's someone's model and theoretical, but maybe those politicians did, accidentally, do the right thing? As for the Canberra, AVM Tuttle would no doubt have been amazed that this aircraft actually served on for many decades, well into the 21st century.

originally it was supposed to unmanned, but someone got scared with the thought of it carrying on to the target after a recall order was given

3:15 AVM Tuttle was being a little pessimistic in saying the RAF would get no mileage from the Canberra beyond 1955. It was still in service in 2005.

RAF Cosford! Great musuem, luckily live 15 mins away. Have always loved the TSR2

These videos is the thing we need

I've worked in defence procurement and I endorse this video.

This is one of the most beautiful aircrafts ever designed!

other video suggestion it would be interesting to see a video on Malbork Castle. located in Poland it is the largest single Castle fortification made by man definitely more of a mega project than some of the other things that have been covered recently.

The supersonic, stainless steel Miles 52 suffered a similar fate in the late 1940s. It's technologies were given to Bell which helped the X-1 break the sound barrier.

I think the moral of this story is that having a brilliant aircraft design isn’t enough to take a giant leap into the future of technology. You need a government willing to spend the money required to turn ideas into reality. America’s aviation technology is as far ahead as it is today because it learned from both friends and foes and was determined enough to spend the resources required.

I think that engine torque is not a relevant consideration for a Newton's Third Law propulsion system; thrust measured simply in pounds is.

I'm not sayin' it was aliens, but it was the United States.😁

20 months to go from the mig 9 to the mig 15… YEAH!!!! It helps when you give your enemy the engine. You kinda glossed over that part.

As an American. I apologize for the abuse of our politicians.

We also had an orbital-class rocket system too that went the same way :(

impressive....especially when the RR Nene was given to the Soviet Union, PROVIDED it was ONLY used for civilian purposes. Yeah, that agreement was followed, until a version of the Nene was installed in the MiG-15/MiG-17....

My favourite of all cold war jets. Although I can understand the reasons for cancelling the TSR2 I cannot understand why all but 2 of the airframes were destroyed. It just seems vindictive looking back, an insult to everyone who worked on the project.

not the first time usa have offerd somthing at cut price to stop a uk project only to then withbraw that offer after we have have stopped

Politics & money - the two horsemen of any advanced military project. The TSR.2 is one of the great "What if it had entered service?" of aviation history... 🚀

Jokes on Geoffrey Tuttle! The Canberra flew with the RAF until 2006 and 3 still fly for NASA (sort of..).

You can see the legacy of the TSR2 in the Jaguar Twin seat.

Excellent megaproject

‘Strike Aircarft’? Really Simon? Love the presentation. One aircraft I wish I could have worked on.

TSR2 and the Avro Arrow are both victims of American politicians looking to curry favor with American aircraft producers. They were two of the most strikingly beautiful and powerful aircraft to come out of the late 50's and early 60's and never see production.

So you are saying that this aircraft had supper cruise back in the 1960's ? Amazing.

So! There was the Starfighter known affectionately as the widow maker!

Amazing aircraft!

You mention the BAe 146 but the Hawk would have been a far better reflection of BAE's full in-house capability. So good the US bought them, quietly, as Navy trainer aircraft and they were sale success across the Middle East and beyond, as light attack fighter bombers

The TSR-2 has some similarities in appearance to the avro arrow.

Hi Simon, That was another great video. It feels a lot like what happened with the British Black Arrow Rocket that the UK canceled in 1971 after the US government promised that they would launch British satellites on American rockets for a discount if the Black Arrow was canceled. However, after the British government canceled the Black Arrow rocket, the US Government withdrew their discount offer. History tends to repeat itself.

The XB-70 lost its mission to the ICBM, the Arrow to the surface to air missiles, and the TSR2 to the lack of needing such specs (or lack of capabilities) and too much in terms of initial and operational costs. Sure fantastic aircrafts, just there were other, better, cheaper options to the missions assigned to them. Knock it off with all the political intrigue.

A mega project that's still waiting for a complete upgrade : The !ock and dam system on the upper Mississippi river.

I worked at BAe in Weybridge in the 70's and the belief was that the Russians were scared of this plane and subsequent "possible links" between the Government and Russia may in time put light on this...in respect of the USA..they did a similar to what you suspect with the Boeing 7207 where the American Government "encouraged" US airlines to go Boeing as opposed to Concord, and when they didn't really succeed they did whatever they could to block Concord landing there...oh and you missed that along with scrapping TSR2 they sold off the runway at Weybridge, and I believe other factories so even if planes were made, they wouldn't be able to fly them out.....then as a final nail..made the various Unions strike..wonder who was behind it all? the US? Russians? the EU? whoever the end result was that the Aircraft industry was destroyed..also BA..or BOAC didn't help ..rumours were that BOAC stood for Buy "Boeing Only Aircraft Company" whilst pushing Vickers to build the brilliant VC10 to a specification that did not compare to the 707 so the 707 won the battle of the 200 seat trans Atlantic plane. Oddly the VC10 was the last flight out of JFK and was usually full as opposed to the 747s before as it was a favoured aircraft ..learned that at my time at BA..hey ho

Kinda sad to think that I was 9 when the mach 2 Concorde first flew and eventually went into passenger service. Today I am 63 and we don't even have passenger jets that can break mach 1 now.

Very interesting story. Shades of the Avro Arrow. Generations ahead of its time but cancelled under pressure from American government. All airframes, specs etc destroyed. Many of the engineers and other skilled staff ended up at NASA. History has a way of repeating itself

The other problem that faced TSR2 was the development of Russian SAM’s which took the high level penetration out of the mix. This also was a problem for the F111, pushing both aircraft to a very low level role. The RAF tried the F111 at low level and one bright spark discovered that the Blackburn Buccaneers could do the same low level as the F111 and TSR2 but about 100mph faster and at 10% of the cost. Just a pity that the supersonic Buccaneer 2 was not progressed

At the time it looked a brilliant aircraft but with hind sight it had severe limitations. The UK would have been better putting the money into the proposed advanced development of the Buccaneer.

The government also destroyed the research data for the Miles supersonic jet of 1947 and the Fairey Rotodyne after the cancellations. Did we not have to pay the Americans charges for cancelling the F-111 contract?

Just another "what-if" techno fish-story: long on hype but short on facts. The one that got away gets bigger every year.

Sounds similar to the Canadian 'Avro Arrow' program. It also went belly up, with rumors that any prototypes and incomplete planes were buried somewhere!

Thank you George !:-) 💜🙏⚡️

The background music had me looking out the window wondering why the ice cream van was taking so long to appear...

No one wants to admit the reasons for the total destruction of the project, but Roy Jenkins, the Aviation Minister in the Wilson Government admitted responsibility for the refusal of the 100 hour research program. It was proposed at a fixed cost of £1.5m, but he replied “By that you mean £2m, and that will double to £4m, and that’s too much!” So £200m of research and development was not just abandoned, but totally destroyed! Disgraceful!

the Mig-15 had a British engine - not a jump forward by Russia but a gift of a Labour government

A real shame, but also very much of a piece with a lot of other things that were cancelled around the same time.... the Type 82 destroyer, CV-01 aircraft carrier, Skybolt, various armored vehicles, etc. The UK had a major habit at the time of spending huge amounts of money on R&D for major projects, only to cancel in favor of a cheaper alternative... and then canceling the cheaper alternative too.... or just deciding "OK we're just not going to *do* aircraft carriers anymore." If there WAS a plot against Harold Wilson it's tempting to think the managers of BAC were among the ringleaders.

Interesting how the U.S. government was involved in the end of the TSR2 and the Avro Arrow. And how many of the employees wound up at U.S. aerospace companies.