Turbo Pendolinos for HS2? Is a directing mind required & why Tornado cost £1m to overhaul

Turbo Pendolinos for HS2? Is a directing mind required & why Tornado cost £1m to overhaul | Ep 35

Рет қаралды 12,478

Күн бұрын

HS2 and Phase 2 to Manchester may have been cancelled but the problems have only begun. How to deal with the 54 brand new Alstom / Hitachi trains on order? What about fewer seats being available on Britain’s most valuable route, London - Manchester? And then there’s Euston station - what on earth do we build now? Chris Gibb, a senior figure in the railway industry previously a director of Virgin Cross Country, Virgin West Coast and Network Rail to name but three thinks he knows what to do - and he’s written it down in a dramatic new plan which we discuss in detail with him.
Andrew Haines has appeared at the Public Accounts Committee where he and the DfT officials also present seemed to reject the notion of a directing mind. The Labour Party, possibly the next party of Government, appear to think otherwise. Is there a showdown coming?
There’s mixed news in the Heritage Sector. In an interview with Steve Davies MBE, Chairman of the A1 Steam Locomotive Trust which owns celebrity locomotive 60163 Tornado, we discuss how its recent general overhaul cost £1m as well as the challenges faced when installing a modern electronic signalling system onto a steam engine. Then we consider the desperate times faced at the Nene Valley Railway which needs £300,000 to stay afloat.
And, there’s good news from the Community Rail sector. We discuss Community Rail week and the marvellous work volunteers carry out to promote their loco lines and stations.
In this episode:
00:00 Intro
03:10 Andrew Haines at the Public Accounts Committee
14:05 Chris Gibb discusses his dramatic plan for HS2, Euston and the Pendolino tilting trains
41:25 Tornado and how to spend £1m on an overhaul as well as fit ETCS
57:08 Trouble at the Nene Valley Railway
59:48 The Quiz
1:04:51 Community Rail Week
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Credits:
Presenters - Nigel Harris (@railnigel on X) & Richard Bowker CBE (@SRichardBowker). General Manager: Stef Foster (@stefatrail)
Image Credits:
With special thanks to the A1 Steam Locomotive Trust for the video and images of 60163 Tornado
Image of Avanti West Coast Pendolino from the Avanti West Coast Media Library
Video of Avanti West Coast Pendolino leaving London from the Avanti West Coast Media Library
Image of Chris Gibb provided by himself
Other images from Shutterstock under Editorial Licence

Пікірлер: 236

@ChrisExley-sk1fh Ай бұрын

Listening to Chris Gibb prompts me to look at what we could do on ECML. Bridging or divering footpath crossing, address the level crossing by bridging and diverting some roads to use these new bridges. Which could support a case to the ORR for 140mph running on significant distances. Just thinking out loud!

@GreenSignals Ай бұрын

Always good to think out loud. Great ideas come from shared discussion.

@chris8405 Ай бұрын

@@GreenSignals, we need some realism here. 36 years ago BR were looking at 140 mph on the ECML, but it was swiftly dropped. Why? Because in the 200 miles between Hitchin and Darlington there are plenty of locations where trains can't even do 125 mph and the greater top speed considerably increased costs - but the time benefits were quite modest, from memory a little less than 4 minutes to Doncaster and just over 5 minutes to Darlington. And now the line is far busier, so 140 mph running would reduce vital capacity. BR picked all the low-hanging fruit, to get a step change in time reductions and capacity the only answer is to build a brand new railway. There is only so much you can do to improve a victorian railway. And I'll also point out that the platforms at Kings Cross can't realistically be extended to take 400m long trains.

@PhilipRossignol-lx4qd Ай бұрын

The financial troubles of the Nene Valley are, I am afraid, symptomatic of a much wider problem - we simply have too many heritage railways for our increasingly embattled economy to support. I remember having a conversation with, I think, one of the directors of Crich Tramway Museum many years ago. He was of the opinion that the heritage movement would expand to a point of unsustainability followed by a possibly catastrophic collapse and rationalisation. A sort of Darwinian survival of the fittest! I think we maybe seeing the start of that collapse. My only surprise is that it has taken so long. Richard is absolutely right to be concerned.

@GreenSignals Ай бұрын

I hope you’re not correct (if you know what I mean!) but there are certainly challenging times ahead, arguably already here. We’re going to be doing a very big on Heritage railways soon…..

@cfb15jan Ай бұрын

With a nation fixated understandably with its health service, maybe our economy is equally unsustainable with so much cash required for so many things?

@bruceknights8330 Ай бұрын

Add in cultural change from immigration. I've observed that the faces at preserved railways are predominantly white, which is not the case in our major urban centres.

@stumpy2000 12 күн бұрын

Sadly I think you're right. We used to go to our local regularly, but prices have gone up so much and money is so much tighter that I've had to let my membership lapse and we now rarely pay a visit.

@mikeuk4130 Ай бұрын

I’m afraid I missed the quiz last week due to a holiday. I think it was 37 093 that was painted in Police “Jam Sandwich” livery in the 80s for a BR advert where it humorously overtook (wrong-line) and stopped a speeding back-to-back pair of HST power cars. It had a flashing blue light fitted above one cab, presumably just within the loading-gauge. That would have been my wrong answer, but I’m pleased I remembered it after about 40 years. Keep up the good work, chaps, and thank you all.

@BIGV710 Ай бұрын

there was a class 47 painted in police coulors i remember as well

@russellbenton2987 Ай бұрын

Thanks guys . Really informative . Great to see someone’s thinking about how they can integrate the truncated HS2 into the overall system . Thanks for saving me from another hour of Question Time !

@GreenSignals Ай бұрын

Delighted to be of assistance!

@stevepayne1369 Ай бұрын

Another excellent show Nigel and Richard. I very much agree with you both that the railway needs a DIRECTING mind. Someone or group of someones at GBR needs to take ownership and responsibility of decisions and budget, rather like the Chairman of BR did. Without that the DFT and ministers will continue to micro manage. The interview with Chris Gibb was uplifting, such a positive man with a can-do attitude to get the best out of HS2 and beyond. Many thanks, Steve

@GreenSignals Ай бұрын

Thanks Steve. Totally agree re Chris - so uplifting to hear someone so practical and positive. Richard

@bodger844 Ай бұрын

Only just found Green Signals recently. I must it's a breath of fresh air to watch a such an informative and topical rail related channel. Nigel and Richard bounce of each other well with the banter and challenging each other's views. The Tornado section was fascinating and something I can relate to as a driver on a small heritage industrial railway. Looking forward to the next one already.

@GreenSignals Ай бұрын

That's so kind - thanks! Do tell all your friends as well. The more the merrier!

@Adam-pk2te Ай бұрын

Brilliant episode as always. Very much in agreement with Richard RE Directing mind, I think rolling stock is a good example of where a lack of a directing mind has proved detrimental

@luketill123 Ай бұрын

Brilliant podcast as per usual, I'd love to see an episode where Richard talks about his time at helping run Virgin and how he feels it became so successful as I'm sure me and others would find it fascinating to hear about. I feel your points about having a directing mind is very valid and would lead to everything running a lot better then it does now.

@Rail_Focus Ай бұрын

Excellent episode. It's great you got to chat to Chris and explain a bit more about the proposal. As you can imagine I have some strong views on this, but haven't had time to sit down and really dig into the detail.

@GreenSignals Ай бұрын

I can well imagine what those strong views might be Chris! Glad you enjoyed the show. Cheers Richard

@MartinWard-ge9mv Ай бұрын

Enjoying the podcasts. I was lucky enough to be listening from the start. I see Richard was mentioned in Saturday's Daily Telegraph (1st June), Page 35. The article talks about Virgin Trains Open Access proposal.

@GreenSignals Ай бұрын

Thanks Martin. Yes indeed, the Daily Telegraph piece comes up in this weeks show due out Thursday 6th June! Cheers. Richard

@stephendavies6949 Ай бұрын

Hello chaps. My mug arrived today, thank you! Your channel is becoming an increasingly significant, informed and influential voice on railway matters. This episode is a case in point: it is absolutely brilliant. As you grow, mature, and engage with ever more regularly with true heavyweights within the industry, please somehow ensure you don't leave us loyal, enthusiastic amateurs behind. Your output is truly riveting.

@GreenSignals Ай бұрын

Goodness Stephen, that's so kind! And fear not - we will ensure that we never forget our core audience. We love the fact that we have been able to bring some really impressive guests on to the show who explain things in a way that everyone can enjoy and understand. Cheers. Richard PS - good news re the mug. Don't forget to stick a pic on social media if you get the chance and tag us in!

@TheDaf95xf Ай бұрын

Good afternoon guys and thanks for the mention 😊 Great topics as always and again with light humour too 👍🏻

@GreenSignals Ай бұрын

Cheers! We always try and keep it humorous..... Cheers. Richard

@ML66B Ай бұрын

I'm ashamed to say it's taken until Ep35 to tune in chaps! Love it, very enjoyable and good to see Gibby too! He talks a lot of sense. Best wishes, JT.

@GreenSignals Ай бұрын

Do not be ashamed. Rejoice instead in your discovery! Thanks for the feedback and do tell all your friends so that they too may enjoy Green Signals!

@chairmakerPete Ай бұрын

Chris Gibb was a breath of fresh air. Clearly understands the public is far from convinced HS2 is anything but a money pit, working on pragmatic solutions to get the thing performing. Along with another truly excellent gentleman some episodes ago from the freight industry, hope springs eternal that the rail industry isn't completely stuffed with no-hopers riding it out until retirement by saying "no" to everything. The first time I've heard someone from the industry talk about customers as the priority, not "their members" or some other inward-looking industry motivation. Sorry to hear about Nene Valley. I suspect just as some heritage railways are realising not everything in their sidings can be preserved, some of these lines themselves will also end up being "scrapped". Unless the lines can get some relief from extortionate energy costs (coal, electricity, gas) as well as creating some other revenue streams, this is not an improving situation. Another triumph of an episode; thank you and well done, gentlemen 👍

@GreenSignals Ай бұрын

Thanks as ever Pete! Appreciate the comments and feedback.

@gquayle Ай бұрын

quizz answer leek & Manifold light railway But the GWRs transporter waggon at Bleanau Ffestiniog could also count as it was a standard gauge wagon with 2ft gauge slate wagons onboard. The standard gauge wagon in question started out in life as a 7ft broad gauge wagon. I would suggest the Padarn railway, but that doesnt quite count, as it was 2ft gauge wagons on 4ft gauge wagons.

@GreenSignals Ай бұрын

Thanks. Some good intel there. Tune in next week to see if we agree!

@christopherlloyd-roberts2205 Ай бұрын

@greensignals Hi both, a great episode as always, it's become a Thursday tradition of mine to listen to your show on a Thursday afternoon now. Love the banter and content and it's nice to hear details with discussion and ideas rather than just opinions like I see on other channels 🙂. One thing I was curious about is the discussion around the station throat of Old Oak Common. I think the guest was correct that 11 tph is possible as I am pretty sure Japan has a similar set up for the Northern HS routes out of Tokyo Station with departures every 5 minutes (12tph) onto a 2 track line. So it'd be interesting to know why this wouldn't be possible.

@superted6960 Ай бұрын

Another fascinating episode, thank you. My (unfortunate?) take on Chris Gibb's comments re the future operation of HS2 is that as it stands now it is only more likely to suck investment and employment opportunities into the London/Birmingham corridor. Exactly the opposite of what the project, in its original format, was supposed to deliver. I'm not sure the reallocation of savings into other projects (pothole filling?) is going to compensate. The north of England and Scotland, have every reason to feel hard done by. Oh and I read that an incoming Labour Government will not reinstate any part of HS2

@GreenSignals Ай бұрын

I don't think there is any escaping the fact that cancelling the northern leg will hit the north hard, however much effort they put into NPR.

@johnarnold7870 Ай бұрын

Another brilliant edition - thanks chaps

@GreenSignals Ай бұрын

Thanks John!

@chewyfoks1840 Ай бұрын

Another marvellous hours entertainment, chaps! I wonder how much a major overhaul of an A3 cost back in the BR days?

@guyb3785 Ай бұрын

Great Podcast again.

@iscmiscm Ай бұрын

Surely changing the bogies and traction would considerably extend the life of the trains, so that could tip the balance regarding making the change worthwhile.

@chris8405 Ай бұрын

Or you could just ask Hitachi to build two more intermediate cars for some of the the state-of-the-art HS2 units and add up 160 seats - the same solution as used for the 390s in fact. Far easier, probably cheaper in the end and most importantly this solution would not reduce line capacity on HS2 south of Handsacre. Using Pendolinos on HS2 tracks would be like re-introducing class 31s on the ECML.

@michaeljohndennis2231 Ай бұрын

1:45 I use SailRail services all the time to travel from where I live in Manchester (23 years) to where my family live near Dublin via Holyhead as an alternative to flying and air travel (which I personally dislike) and I watch with great interest the proposals by the Irish government to improve the rail infrastructure in my native Republic of Ireland, including an extension of an existing rail line to my home area in Ireland - but currently, the fact that there are very few direct trains from Manchester to Holyhead, even when connecting with the relevant ferry check-in times at Holyhead to Dublin is a huge issue, nor is there any direct trains to Liverpool or Birkenhead from Manchester to catch the ferries (or cruise ships) to Dublin there (now that Dublin Port has been expanded to take cruise ships) and it’s the same on the return journey - they all go through Chester, Crewe or Lladnuo requiring a change of train enroute and it’s so silly - why is there not a direct route across the North of England from Hull or York, via Leeds and Manchester (Victoria) direct to Holyhead or Liverpool/Birkenhead? I’m not even bothered about express or first class, but this “changing trains” thing really bugs me - if the Irish government does decide to follow EU directives and ban all “shorthaul” flights between Ireland and the U.K. post-Brexit, given the Common Travel Area between Ireland and the U.K. then we have a serious problem, as trade across the Irish Sea is greater than ever post Brexit and Post-Covid

@GreenSignals Ай бұрын

Some really interesting points there - thanks!

@GDGRailway47712 Ай бұрын

I have an alternative to Mr Gibb's suggestion. There are currently 3 Pendolino services per hour each way between London and Scotland (though one of those goes via Brum and is so slow all of the journey planners suggest people change at Crewe if they are doing the full route), and 2 per hour each way between London & Liverpool and 2 per hour each way between London and Manchester. Going up to Scotland there is 1 Pendolino per hour each way between Edinburgh and London and 2 Pendolinos per hour each way between Glasgow and London. Then the TPE services between Liverpool and Scotland and Manchester Airport and Scotland seem to be 3 per hour in total but I'm not sure the split and these are non-tilt currently? If HS2 is going to take over all of the fast services from London to Birmingham, Manchester and Liverpool; this will free up quite a number of Pendolino units. There will be ETCS on the southern section of the existing WCML allowing the Pendolinos to reach 225km/h. Reducing the Pendolino traffic on the WCML from 7 to 2 trains per hour each way but increasing the speed of those two should permit additional capacity for the regional commuter services that HS2 was intended to create. Those two per hour both would go to Scotland up the Trent Valley route. The freed up Pendolino sets could then replace all of the non-tilt trains going to Scotland. One per hour starting from Birmingham, 1 per hour from Crewe, 1 per hour from Manchester and 1 per hour from Liverpool. This would not require modification of the Pendolino fleet, not slow HS2 down at all and not require Old Oak to deal with 11 trains per hour. The disadvantage would be that the two London to Scotland trains would take some capacity from the old WCML compared to moving all express services to HS2. There would be more options for London to Scotland travellers and more options for travellers to/from Scotland from intermediate stations. There would also be no need for HS2 trains to go north of Liverpool/Crewe/Manchester.

@GDGRailway47712 Ай бұрын

And as a further suggestion, since the East Mids Parkway phase has been cancelled and there is a strange stub being left, maybe that stub could be linked up to the existing Tamworth line? That conventional line could be electrified and also quad tracked from north of Tamworth to just south of Willington. This would be a lower cost way of getting HS2 trains up to Derby which could release capacity on the MML further south.

@GreenSignals Ай бұрын

Thanks. I suspect there will many possible variants of diagrams and timetables. The key point Chris was making was that a decision needs to be taken rather more quickly than perhaps some think.

@peterwilliamallen1063 Ай бұрын

I don't think you havent read the concept of HS2 properly, when HS2 opens it will be run by Avanti West Coast who will transfer 98% of it's Hi Speed services from Birmingham, Liverpool, Manchester and Scotland to London from the West Coast Main line to the HS2 route and by then the Pendolino trains will either be scrapped or redeployed else wear as Avanti West Coast has moved awy from Tilting trains of the Voyager variety and replaced them with class 805 non tiltig trains. As HS2 is being built for trains to do 225 MPH and there are only two intermediate stations at Birmingham Interchange and London Old Oak Common and the line is only two tracks with no passing points, how do you slot a 140 MPH on to the HS2 line in between 225 MPH HS2 trains, the Maths do not add up and you would get HS2 trains being delayed by the slowere Pendolino trains. Pendolino trains upgraded or not just will not beoperating on HS2 and not sure why people like your self keep quoting speeds in Kph, in the UK wee have never done or will do quote speeds in kph, we only quote speed in MPH

@GDGRailway47712 Ай бұрын

@@peterwilliamallen1063 Peter, the concept of HS2 really went in the bin when Sunak announced that nothing beyond Phase 1 would be built. You didn't read my plan above correctly, there is no modification of the Pendolino fleet in my plan and no running of non-HS trains on HS track. I use the metric speeds because that is actually what the industry works to. The standards for HS railways are 300km/h, 320km/h and 360km/h. There is no law that says people in britain must use imperial. Eventually when we get to a point where most people in the country were only ever taught the metric system, everything will transfer over.

@peterwilliamallen1063 Ай бұрын

@@GDGRailway47712 the concept of HS2 is stillalive and thgere are still plans to try and build the very short distance to Manchester, but the point is the UK never went over properly to metric measurements using both metric and linear merasurements in weights and measures and height, the only thing that went fukky metric was money from Pounds, Shillings and pence to decilamal currency £ & Pence, but distance wsa measured in Kilometers and Miles but the only thing that never changed is speed. In the UK apart from the Republic of Ireland we have never used KPH only MPH and since Brexit the UK has ditched metric measurements and gone back to feet and inches and speed will never in the UK be mwasured in KPH, so 100, 110,125,140 and 225 mph is the standard for HS Railways in the UK

@stephenbates306 Ай бұрын

Thanks. Great to meet you Richard in Sainsbury’s this morning.

@GreenSignals Ай бұрын

Thanks Steve. That's really kind. And lovely to bump into you as well. Devizes Sainsbury's is clearly where all the action is! Cheers. Richard

@marktownend8065 Ай бұрын

A great scheme for HS2, very pragmatic. Effectively, it's a more practical and useful Phase 1 staged opening. I share concerns about risks and costs of the Pendo refurb and upgrade. Nice to see Steve Davis again.

@GreenSignals Ай бұрын

Thanks Mark. Both Chris and Steve were brilliant.

@peterwilliamallen1063 Ай бұрын

It will never happen full stop, it is like saying put a suped up Rocket on the LMS main line in the 1930's. Be b----y glad when HS2 is open and stop all these silly speculations

@t9south Ай бұрын

HS2 is expected to cost £396 million pounds a mile. And once again Britain is back at what it does best. A very, very expensive fudge. This wouldn’t happen in any other country but Britain. And sorry guys this will definitely let the politicians and civil servants off the hook. I’m sure land will have to be repurchased again around Euston station in 20-30 years time.

@chairmakerPete Ай бұрын

The land around Euston hasn't been sold.

@tpaul2866 Ай бұрын

I can recall the 140mph testing on the ECML in the late 80's. I suspect 155 mph running will bring all kinds of engineering prowess into play. These days I travel mostly in a Wickham Trolley. Doesn't tilt a huge amount other than in strong crosswinds. Doesn't have the same level of noise suppression or ride comfort either.

@GreenSignals Ай бұрын

Great view out of the front though!

@GDGRailway47712 Ай бұрын

My concern with the revised HS2 plan is what it will do to services to and from Scotland. As a current regular user between Crewe and both Glasgow and Edinburgh, the HS trains on order will be slower than the Pendolinos. By my calculations, even running 320km/h to Handsacre junction, the Scotland services would be slower from London Scotland than Pendolinos running 225km/h up to Handsacre jn. We're in danger of sleepwalking into a London based solution that ignores users of the WCML in the north and Scotland. It is worth looking at solutions that give the best overall benefit.

@GDGRailway47712 Ай бұрын

Given the shortening of HS2, is there any point in the 2nd phase of HS only trains given they'd only be able to shuttle London to Birmingham. They'd be better exploring a new super-pendolino that could run 300km/h on HS2 and 225km/h tilt on Northern lines?

@gorgu08 Ай бұрын

I think you were not listening to what he was proposing, there was an uplift to the line speed north of Preston to 225km/h using ects, so people in the north would be catered for…

@GreenSignals Ай бұрын

If we can raise speeds north of Preston which ought to be possible, it could compensate. But no plan other than Phase 2a delivers any additional capacity.

@GDGRailway47712 Ай бұрын

@@gorgu08 The uplift would be for all trains, the differential between tilt and non-tilt would therefore still exist as that is due to the curves on the line through the Lake District and Scottish Borders. You're saying there that Scotland and Northern England shouldn't get any benefit from HS2 at all because they're already getting ETCS from Warrington to Carlisle.

@GDGRailway47712 Ай бұрын

@@GreenSignals That is happening regardless of HS2 though? So doesn't change my conclusion that HS2 won't benefit the North Lakes nor Scotland unless something like Mr Gibb's 250km/h Pendolino comes about. However, even his talk of capacity to places like MK, Bicester, affirms my belief that HS2 was never about anything other than moving long distance services off the existing lines to free up capacity for more London commuter belt trains and create growth in the South East and South Midlands.

@andyknott8148 Ай бұрын

I can't help noticing that Nigel's liquid of choice this week is brown and in a glass, definitely a step up from a flask of tea. Great podcast that always gets me thinking and debating.

@GreenSignals Ай бұрын

Thanks! Glad you’re enjoying the show.

@BenRattigan Ай бұрын

With regards to what Andrew said, In understand but from a passenger perspective, when there is an issue or query, who do you go to? Train Operator? The Mayor?, The Combined Authority?, GBR? There needs to be clarity of ownership of issues and problems. Local stations have lots of stakeholders from NR, TOC, local councils, mayors etc… and when there is a problem is difficult to get anyone to own it.

@seanmawson296 Ай бұрын

Brilliant episode, why don’t they just revamp the Pendolino like a neo with new build trains but based on the same platform.

@clgrlimited5578 Ай бұрын

Because we don’t have time. The new HS2 phase 1 will be ready in 2030.

@kiwidave6 Ай бұрын

Once upon a time, 40 years ago, Britain led the war in developing tilting trains with its Advanced Passenger Train. Like any development projects this had problems which needed ironing out. After several years of work, the commissioning team was almost there, but the British government ran out of patience and pulled the plug on the APT. Britain lost its lead with tilting trains and imported all subsequent tilting trains from other countries. A phenomenally bad decision. I was part of the APT commissioning team and I know how close we were to achieving a reliable product.

@kiwidave6 Ай бұрын

Correction: Britain led the world…, not “led the war”. Stupid predictive text.

@GreenSignals Ай бұрын

Do you think with hindsight that there was too much innovative tech on the train. IIRC, the tiling system was indeed nearly there but there were continuing issues with the hydrokinetic brakes amongst other things.

@kiwidave6 Ай бұрын

@@GreenSignals Yes, there was innovative tech, but in general it was minor design-detail that let things down. These instances needed to be identified and fixed, and often the fix was simple. The APT commissioning team steadily worked its way through many of these issues and one-by-one, got them sorted. You mention the hydrokinetic brakes. One problem was a design oversight that regularly caused the HK brakes to overheat, but only on the power cars. Turned out that the delivery-pipe exit from the fluid reservoirs was installed too high, and started sucking air once the fluid level dropped by a small amount. On the trailer cars the exit was lower so no problem. A short downwards-extension pipe was made to fit inside the power-car tanks, which easily solved this. Much of our work was this sort of mundane thing. I speculate that the train’s original design by former Rolls Royce aircraft engineers who lacked practical experience of the railway environment, may have given rise to at least some of the issues.

@GDGRailway47712 Ай бұрын

@@kiwidave6 I think part of the problem was the APT-P was a prototype and still experimental but was treated as the finished article. No doubt the squadron service version would have had faults ironed out but also maybe not have had all of the features of the prototypes?

@kiwidave6 Ай бұрын

@@GDGRailway47712 Yes, I think that is fair to say.

@martinsloman6905 Ай бұрын

Chris Gibb brings to mind the Ernest Rutherford quote 'Gentlemen we haven't got any money, we shall have to think'. Would be interesting to get Andrew McNaughton's take on this.

@joegrey9807 Ай бұрын

So if Plan Gibb is applied, and you speed up journey times to places north of Bham, then you'll get a bigger need/incentive to resolve the Stafford and TV bottleneck. At some point a new line is going to have to be built from Handsacre to Manchester Airport

@GreenSignals Ай бұрын

I don't think that's in any doubt. Chris's plan addresses the immediate term. Long term capacity uplift will be required.

@wrangerrob Ай бұрын

Rob here over on the East, what is happening to HS2 Manchester Station near/next to Piccadilly, I expect it will be needed for the 155 super pendos. Has Andy Burnham any plans for this? The two track section south of Stafford is this in the bypass plan I think I have heard about? All a bit vague the super 390s both solve and add problems, which need tho be got on with. 5years is short in construction time

@GreenSignals Ай бұрын

Hi Rob over on the East. Some great questions there. I think we might see if Andy would come on the show. He’s got some great ideas and I’m certain people would love to hear what he has to say. We can but ask!

@alexisdespland4939 Ай бұрын

how far away dose the connecting services on the west london line at old oak common go.

@GreenSignals Ай бұрын

The new 'super hub' at Old Oak Common will provide connections to Elizabeth Line, GWR and Heathrow Express services.

@anthonypowell5665 Ай бұрын

This channel is brilliant just subscribed to it. My opinion is government interference is the main reason why hs2 has got into a mess. I've read about this proposal to run pendolinos at 155mph to be honest now I've listened to it it does make more sense than you 1st think

@GreenSignals Ай бұрын

Thanks Anthony. Really appreciate the kind feedback and so glad you like the channel!

@allanmorton6022 Ай бұрын

Got to agree with on directing mind as clear decisions meed to be made and communicated. On the pendo plan, seems odd to run trains slower than the 200 mph+ track capability just to get better performance further north. Maybe faster new trains would be better as well as straighter alignments in the North. While good to challenge the industry on OOC there is no resilience in that plan and reliability will suffer. Delays can happen anywhere when interfacing with the public. No good freeing west coast paths if open access just fill them up! For the quiz I'll go for Leek and Manifold. I think there is some at laxley on IoM but don't think that's Britain!

@GreenSignals Ай бұрын

Thanks Allan. Excellent insights as usual!

@staffordian Ай бұрын

Another great episode! An interesting mix as usual. I was very interested to hear Chris Gibb with a concrete proposal for the current HS2 reality. Good to hear a true railwayman's thoughts. And a quiz question i know the (an?) answer to, which I've emailed to prevent cribbing 😂 Cheers, Rob

@GreenSignals Ай бұрын

Cheers Rob! And super smart to send the quiz answer by email.....!

@guyb3785 Ай бұрын

Thanks

@GreenSignals Ай бұрын

Thanks Guy. That is very much appreciated!

@gbphil Ай бұрын

Re: ECTS and Tornado / Mainline Steam Engines - Can a steam train autobrake or is there a multi-operator exemption?

@joegrey9807 Ай бұрын

I think one of the reasons why HS2 failed to gain popular approval (other than the name that focuses attention on unnecessary speed rather than the necessary capacity improvements, and the costs) is that there was no 'directing mind' planning the interventions that would be able to make use of the released capacity. Plans should have been in the advanced stages for new stations on the WCML, ECML & MML. Geographic analysis shows that stations at Rushden, north and south Leicester, south Peterborough, east Coventry, and west Wolverhampton would each bring tens of thousands of people within easy reach of the rail network (and Desborough and Weedon/Daventry would also be useful additions). And details could have been made of the improved suburban services using paths currently needed for time-sensitive long distance passengers on the lines into the major cities. Such promised improvements could have made cancelling parts of HS2 unpalatable for many. There were vague mutterings that HS2 would be the backbone, but there was little talk about how it would change the flesh and blood of the current network. But, I suppose if such a holistic approach makes it harder for governments to make changes to proposals then why would they want a directing mind? Better to leave the system floundering in uncertainty, then you can make promises when you need the support and break them when you need the money.

@GreenSignals Ай бұрын

In fairness, there was a process in place that would have made just the decisions you have highlighted. What no-one expected was the sudden cancellation of the project without consultation or consideration within government as to what the consequences would be.

@silverfox2358 Ай бұрын

I think HS2 need to build a sharper nose section to the train like the JR500 because of getting through the tunnels at speed, or may be a areo spike to extend on the front of the trains nose to cut through the air resistance sharper.

@silverfox2358 Ай бұрын

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/500_Series_Shinkansen

@GreenSignals Ай бұрын

The cross section of the train is compliant with the tunnel profile.

@unkleoo Ай бұрын

I think Chris's paper is an excellent analysis and I agree with lots of what is said in it, and also strongly agree that we need to act quickly to get the best out of the ph1 investment - but I disagree with the conclusions. What I take from it is that our very best operational planning minds can't realise the strategic benefits of the project from the infrastructure rump that Sunak and his SPAD (without any reference to the DfT, let alone industry) have left behind, so it's a terrible warning about the risk of lost benefits if it is left in the current state. The cost of ph1 is such that the value of lost benefits from not doing 2a (or just delaying 2a for 10-15 years) could be the same order of magnitude as building it now. (which would be no surprise to anyone since it's the reason ph1 + 2a were bundled together in the first place) I've crunched some numbers and estimated that a 200m hs2 train running at conventional permitted speed from Handsacre to Glasgow runs about 17.5 minutes slower than the same spec train running at EPS speed... however from Handsacre down to Euston with a 2 min dwell at OOC an hs2 train at the current 330kph would run 24 minutes faster than WTT of a pendalino running non-stop down WCML into Euston. Later in the paper Chris suggests that a new line from Fradley to NPR is required at some later date in the 2030s - at a reduced linespeed of 250kph, and reducing the linespeed of ph1 from 330kph down to 300kph. If I compare ph1+2a+running over classic route from Crewe into Manchester - with this reduced linespeed, on a 3TPH service it is a 6.3% increase in GJT from London-Manchester. That's a non-trivial dilution of JT benefits to the key market. In FY 22/23 passenger volumes from these regions to London were... (ORR O/D matrix) Glasgow 394k Edinburgh 1176k WMCA 2918k Greater Manchester 1980k Merseyside 858k public.tableau.com/app/profile/richard.rowson/viz/RailODManalysis2022-23/Topdestinationsbystation So at least in terms of journey times, the proposal optimises JT for the much smaller Glasgow market - at the expense of less improved JT for the much larger key markets. Seating capacity is something I've not considered here, but is clearly another vital factor. That would need economic analysis to determine how that feeds through into the strategic benefits of the project, but my guts says that would be worse for the BCR than optimising JT for the largest markets - Overall what I take from the paper is that 2a + some 'temporary' 400m platforms in Manchester + Euston are essential to release the value we've invested in ph1, which without that further investment will be wasted.

@GreenSignals Ай бұрын

I do take your point about platform lengths at Manchester as well as total capacity at Euston.....

@stephenbagwell8275 Ай бұрын

Are all Pendolinos turbos as most electricity is produced by one form of turbine or other?

@GreenSignals Ай бұрын

Interesting point, but we were really using the word as a euphemism for going faster than originally conceived. Cheers.

@charlo90952 Ай бұрын

I wonder if the overhaul could have been done in another country at lower cost. Poland eg perhaps.

@GreenSignals Ай бұрын

I very much doubt it. Cost of transportation and insurance would have been prohibitive. I would need to defer to others on whether there are sufficient people with knowledge of UK standards.

@physiocrat7143 Ай бұрын

@@GreenSignals 40% of the cost of the overhaul has ended up in the coffers of the government, one way or another.

@physiocrat7143 Ай бұрын

I have been travelling extensively by train this week during a visit to Britain. The state of some sections of the tack is terrible. The ride quality of the new generation of trains is worse than BR Mark 1 stock with the notoriously bad original type of double bolster bogies. From this, it must be suspected that the newest trains are smashing up the track. A huge repair bill is looming, and remedial action is needed to prevent this from being an ongoing cost.

@GreenSignals Ай бұрын

Given me an idea for a video on track quality / New Measurement Train. Cheers!

@physiocrat7143 Ай бұрын

@@GreenSignalsMake an on-train video with sound plus Google maps location. The down fast between Paddington and Slough, and down slow west of Slough to Twyford have some bad stretches which are very noticeable on Electrostars, normally quite well behaved. The GE main line also has rough stretches. The ride quality is terrible on the Ipswich-Lowestoft branch with ancient jointed track, which is being literally hammered by the trains. They would fail the old threepenny bit test - if you can get hold of one of the old 12 sided coins, similar to the £1 coins but with flat edges, that could be part of the video. The coin should stand upright on the tables. BR Mark 1 failed if not fitted with B4 bogies. Someone needs to find out what the post privatisation fleets are doing to the track.

@davidcrossley8771 Ай бұрын

I find the ride quality on my local line Bridlington/Hull far superior to ECML and Azuma

@ChrisExley-sk1fh Ай бұрын

Gents, do we need a "firewall" between the DFT and the operating railway? A collective directing mind! Perhaps!

@GreenSignals Ай бұрын

Well, it’s a thought although in fairness, the DfT and its Ministers should set policy. That is the role of Government.

@kevinpoulton Ай бұрын

Was there a real plan with HS2 we talking about 8 train a hour now how was it ever going take the east coast train from leeds up and the midlands trains from Sheffield

@richardwakeley2192 Ай бұрын

My Quiz answer is already answered by earlier commenters. Leek and Manifold Lt Rlwy. - On the subject of heritage railways, there are definitely too many and not well distributed. I favour the ones running full length lines with historically correct equipment (N. wales narrow guage, North Yorks, West Somerset, Dartmouth etc) rather than lines just running a coal board shunter with a few BR carriages over a couple of miles (Matlock etc)

@GreenSignals Ай бұрын

Thanks. We will be looking into the issue of Heritage railway economics in a special show coming (hopefully!) fairly soon.

@robertevans6229 Ай бұрын

Virgin wcml open access transport for Scotland says line to busy to put stations back between lockerbie and carstairs

@GreenSignals Ай бұрын

From memory, there's not much of a market between Lockerbie and Carstairs to justify the cost of reopening any stations.....

@richardswain3530 Ай бұрын

A plan that makes a lot of sense by Chris. It should be investigated properly it's a good plan

@GreenSignals Ай бұрын

There are many challenges with it, but at least it has created a starting point for discussion.

@Richardhill1978 Ай бұрын

What a fantastic episode I’m looking forward to to the manifestos that will be up picked in the next few weeks but I did see the political campaigns by trains is in full steam

@bishwatntl Ай бұрын

Pendolinos on HS2? Yes, please.

@peterwilliamallen1063 Ай бұрын

They won't be able to operate on HS2 as they are not geaared for 225 mph operation and do not have in cab signalling which is what is being used on HS2

@bishwatntl Ай бұрын

@@peterwilliamallen1063 Have you listened to that part of the podcast yet? You'll hear what the idea is.

@peterwilliamallen1063 Ай бұрын

@@bishwatntl Again one man with a hair brained idea no matter what he has done in the past, When HS2 opens the Pendolino trains will be near the end of their life cycle after at least two upgrades and no matter what you do to them it would cost too much to up grade the speed of them plus install in cab signalling as HS2 is being desighned for and a line speed of 225 MPH which Pendolinos wont be able to do and if necessary they could still operate on the Existing WCML, but the whole thing about HS2 is to take ultra hi speed trains away from the pathing of slower trains like Pendolino's and there is no point in building HS2 to a loer speed than what they have sesighned it for

@bazzacuda_ Ай бұрын

@@peterwilliamallen1063The Pendolino fleet is being upgraded with ETCS anyway. It was built with a form of in-cab signalling originally. the 360km/h speed on HS2 was never going to be timetabled, it was a capacity to be used for making up time for small delays but services would be timetabled at 320km/h. This proposal would see that reduced by 20km/h to 300km/h, so not massively slower but the longer Pendolinos would make up for that in capacity. Remember that HS2 has been curtailed. The HS2 fleet will be slower on conventional tracks than the Pendolino fleet, a lot slower once WCML has ETCS. Any advantage from running at 320km/h up to Lichfield would be gone because of slower running north of that. So the only people to lose from the reduction from 320 to 300 would be the people going to Birmingham. This may not be the solution, but people have to put forward ideas or it will just be a very expensive white elephant.

@peterwilliamallen1063 Ай бұрын

@@bazzacuda_ First HS2 has not been curtailed as it is being constructed in it's entirety from London Euston to Birmingham and Handsacre Junction in Staffordshire, next it is being built for a line speed of 250 MPH with HS2 trains travelling at 225 MPH so a Pendolino which will be at the edge of it's life expectancy when HS2 opens will be slower on the HS2 route at 140 to 180 mph speed than HS2 train at 225 mph and as there are only 2 passing points on a two track HS2 line at Birmingham Interchange and London OOC these aged Pendolino trains will impede the HS2 trains and it is the southgern half of the WCML fron Stafford to Euston that the Pendolinos were purchased for due to it's curvature nature on this section of line. Over Shap and Beatock to Scotland even Pendolino trains don't do 125 MPH so both Pendolino and HS2 trains come out equal and as some services of Avanti West Coast will still use the existing WCML some Pendolino services will use this route for Avanti West Coast to serve Wolverhampton, Coventry, Stafford, Nuneaton, Rugby, Milton Keynes and Watford services and being a Railway enthusiast I havent heard any thingabout the Pendolinos ever being desighned for in cab signalling.

@gzk6nk Ай бұрын

Quiz Leek and manifold narrow gauge wagons carrying standard gauge waggons from the standard gauge at Waterhouses along the narrow gauge railway.

@colinlea009 Ай бұрын

the leek and Manifold closed in 1934, so even if Richard had seen the transporter wagons as a baby in a pram, he'd be over 90 years old...!

@GreenSignals Ай бұрын

Tune in next week to see if that is indeed correct....!

@martinessam4629 Ай бұрын

Nene valley should make more of its 007 and Queen videos appearances

@GreenSignals Ай бұрын

I'm sure they do make every effort to leverage off their famous moments. Two 007 moments IIRC - Goldeneye and Octopussy

@physiocrat7143 Ай бұрын

Why does the on-train ERTMS equipment cost so much and is so expensive? The computing power required cannot be more than a Raspberry Pi or Arduino can provide. Obviously it has to be interfaced to the train braking, power supply and speed detection systems, and hardened for the tough railway environment, but if the equipment is fitted during overhaul, the cost should be in the low tens of thousands. One of the evil effects of such costly on-train equipment is to make short multiple units uneconomic. Thus we see full length trains running less than a quarter full for half the day instead of being split and unnecessary stock left in the sidings. 34:36

@slimchris113 Ай бұрын

Im mixed on pendolinos on HS2, also you guys didnt mention about Euston platforms. A six platform terminus is not enough for HS2 and no comment on the Leeds branch as I think its the most important on the network.

@peterwilliamallen1063 Ай бұрын

Pendolinos will not be able to operate on HS2 as they are not geared to operate at225mph and do not have in cab signalling which is what is going to be used on HS2

@slimchris113 Ай бұрын

@@peterwilliamallen1063 Yes even bringing down the operating speed of HS2 the pendolinos cant even handle that.

@GreenSignals Ай бұрын

Thanks. there was only so much we could cram in but fair point about Leeds and the Eastern leg. Regards the Pendolinos, they could operate on HS2. Sure, they would be limited to 155 mile/h under Chris's plan so there woudl be differential speed but they were designed with in cab signalling in mind and indeed are fitted with a system called TASS (it's to do with how the train know when and where it can tilt) and they use ETCS balises.

@GreenSignals Ай бұрын

Please see comment to author of this thread. The in cab signalling issue is not an impediment.

@slimchris113 Ай бұрын

@@GreenSignals OK I will

@fatwalletboy2 Ай бұрын

Is there the demand for 11 trains every hour though? One train every what 5 or 6 minutes to Bham......?? Fair play though to Chris Gibb sparing time to chat to Green Signals whilst on annual leave! An all round cracking episode.

@GDGRailway47712 Ай бұрын

4 trains an hour to Brum, 2 to Manchester, 2 to Liverpool, 2 to Glasgow and one to Edinburgh?

@GreenSignals Ай бұрын

Thanks. He’s brilliant and it was very kind of him.

@AndrewRoberts11 Ай бұрын

With HS2 phase one having capital costs in excess of £70bn, as a result debt servicing to work out around £4bn a year, for half a century, and forecast operational costs in excess of £2bn, you'll be needing fares and snacks to generate in excess of £6bn to break even. This will require the whole, million strong, population of Birmingham to commute London, every week day, and half at weekends, if fares are to be kept at the current £6.40 advanced Chilton line level. Requiring a dozen 5km train sets, and obviously platforms to be constructed, with services arriving and departing at 5 min intervals.

@GreenSignals Ай бұрын

That assumes that projects such as these are required to break even on purely financial (cashflow) grounds. That is not how transport projects are appraised in the uK (nor indeed, as far as I am aware) anywhere. Wider economic benefits / social benefits are a big part of the benefit calculation.

@AndrewRoberts11 Ай бұрын

@@GreenSignals If Social benefits were a consideration the old GCR and Junction railway trackbeds would have been re-used, with the service stopping at all the towns between London and Birmingham, to offer utility to many a place that hasn't has a rail service in 50+ years, rather than just serving a pair of cities already connected by two separate lines. They elected to bypass all the towns, to permit 400 kph running, in the process reducing the catchment area for the service, and denying the possibility of CO2 saving freight services. Have a look at the costs per km of reinstating the varsity line from Oxford to Bedford, compared to HS2. This is just a vanity project.

@peterwilliamallen1063 Ай бұрын

Try reading up about HS2, it will be operated by Avanti West Coast trains who will transfer 98% of their hi speed train services from the WCML to the HS2 route, so who ever at the moment is travelling on Avanti West Coast train services on the WCML at the moment will when HS2 opens will be travelling on the HS2 route

@AndrewRoberts11 Ай бұрын

Avanti services often typically stop at one or more of Wolverhampton, Coventry, Rugby, Northampton, Milton Keynes, between Birmingham and London. Locale's the new line does not serve, nor anywhere else as HS2 bypasses all the towns the old GCML and Junction railways once bisected, and whose trackbed it will partially reuse. So it's just the entire population of Central Birmingham, that will be tasked with justifying the lines existence, as not accessible from anywhere else, and have you ever seen a Londoner willingly visit Birmingham?

@peterwilliamallen1063 Ай бұрын

@@AndrewRoberts11 Again have you even read anything about HS2 and how it will be operated obviousely not by the sounds of it, when HS2 opens it will along with the existing WCML be operated by the incubent West Coast Franchise operator who will operate both the West Coast Main Line and the HS2 line, tht operator at present is Avanti West Coast Trains with it's parner Trenitalia trains of Italy which are a part of the First Group, as I have writen and has been officially stated is that once HS2 opens 98% of all Hi speed service that Avanti West Coast operte from Scotland, Liverpool, Manchester and Birmingham will switch to the HS2 route south of Handsacre junction to London, with their services moving out of Birmingham New Street to Birmingham Curzon Street and the HS2 route. This will then relieve the existing WCML route and Birmingham New Street for ther Avanti Services, LNWR Services, Lumo First Group) and Virgin Trains if they do start operating again plus Freight on the WCML, these other towns you mention will be serviced by other Avanti Services with a change over point at Birmingham Interchange Station with Birmingham International station. So with Birmingham being the second largest City in the UK with 1.5 million Citizens and Liverpool and Manchester plus Scotland passengers HS2 will do just nicely along with the HQ of Avanti West Coast trains being in Birmingham and why wouldn't Londoners not willingley come to Birmingham have you ever visited Birmingham. They come to Brum to vist Cadbury World, the Worlds biggest Primark, the famouse Bullring/ Grand Central Shopping Centre our Museums and Art Galleries and the tourst places close to Birmingham, so sorry to disappoint you.

@joegrey9807 Ай бұрын

Ok, clutching at straws here... Have narrow gauge wagons ever been transported by truck through the Channel Tunnel

@GreenSignals Ай бұрын

That is indeed the sound of a straw being clutched....!

@user-iz1ht3ut1m Ай бұрын

Manifold Valley

@GreenSignals Ай бұрын

Turn in next week to hear the answer and who has won!!

@andrewrturtle7231 Ай бұрын

Any news on Richards investigation regarding Huw Merrimans claims? He may have gone, but the truth still needs to be outed!

@GreenSignals Ай бұрын

I confess I've not got much further with being swamped by new filming commitments. But not forgotten.....

@andrewrturtle7231 Ай бұрын

@GreenSignals many thanks for your reply, I shall wait patiently!!!! I really do enjoy your podcasts, so thank you for doing them and please keep them coming! 👍

@adodgygeeza Ай бұрын

Only railway engineers could make going at 155mph difficult and expensive. I suspect that a team of motorsports engineers could probably do it in a few months and do the modifications.. The Pendalino has just under 8000bhp, with some aero improvements it would be capable of 186mph never mind 155.

@adodgygeeza Ай бұрын

Nuclear engineers would make the train do 65mph and charge you £2billion for a 2037 delivery. Engineering risk processes and the attitudes that they build up over time are what makes things slow and expensive. The reason Britain leads the world at Motorsport is because they don't run the same sort of engineering risk management processes as they do in other industries.

@GreenSignals Ай бұрын

Oh heck - where have you been! Call Alstom immediately - your services are required, and quick..zzz

@adodgygeeza Ай бұрын

@@GreenSignals can't afford me, I'm in the nuclear industry which makes rail look like SpaceX...

@physiocrat7143 Ай бұрын

There are step changes in costs as running speeds increase. Light rail practices suffice for line speeds of under 45 mph. There are break points at about 75 mph, and again at 100 mph. In the UK context, there is probably little benefit in running faster than 90 mph. The need is for frequent and affordable walk-on services. There is no point in running at high speed when you have to allow an hour or so to be certain of catching the train to which your advance booking has tied you.

@gingertom2355 Ай бұрын

What have I missed with Chris Gibb claiming benefits of his alternative HS2 proposals accrue to Bicester and High Wycombe? How? As for the ideas on initial startup services I think there's a some merit though up to 11 services / hour terminating and departing OOC using the six available platforms will indeed be a challenge, particularly doing it reliably which will always demand some marginal time built in. A 400m train travelling at a speed consistent with stopping a few hundred metres further on will take some time to clear the North end S&C, key to to the operation. Euston? I'd first like to see a cost breakdown of precisely where the sums estimated are being spent! If a footprint for say a 10 platform station and associated oversite development costs x, how much does the same footprint with reduced railway catering for y (say 4 plats) cost? If the total footprint is similarly reduced what is the reduction is scope, capital cost and future income of such a smaller station site? What is the cost to expand it beyond a developed site if in future the country wakes up to the wider costs of expanding alternative transport modes? All rhetorical of course but I'm really not at all convinced the scope of the railway component is the problem. How else have they costed Curzon St with seven platforms significantly less than Euston? Something to do with the needs of the planned commercial development plans perhaps?

@GreenSignals Ай бұрын

Thanks for the feedback. I think we'll probably invite Chris back on at some point to chat through some of the comments made and also see how he's getting on with discussing the plan more widely. Cheers. Richard

@simonaltham9054 Ай бұрын

Is it just me, or does anyone else think that the only reason the public think HS2 is too expensive is because of near total ignorance of HS2 and rail operations in general? This is purely down to HS2 Ltd leaving social media to the various anti HS2 groups for the best part of 10 years and even now the mainstream media publish complete rubbish which so many take as true. Where is the industry response to get the facts out there and counter this deliberate misinformation?

@GreenSignals Ай бұрын

Fair points but we do have a real issue with securing public acceptance to any form of major project in the UK. Comms is one thing (and an important thing) but I also think we need to have a good hard think as to the way we go about promoting, designing and implementing these projects. There is probably much to do differently at every stage.

@martinoban Ай бұрын

This thread is full of negativity! All the excuses why its impossible or point. The UK doesn't need ultra high-speed trains because our distances don’t justify it, what is needed South of Preston is capacity, which is why we need HS2 extended to Stafford and further. But we do need a reduction of at least 30 minutes in the London to Scotland journey time. Did CG estimate the effect of all his ideas on that? After all, an average speed of 200km/hr would give an schedule of less than 3.15.

@michaeljohndennis2231 Ай бұрын

What we need for the U.K. railways is an external body brought in by the government from either Japan, Taiwan or the CCP with the required laws passed through Parliament to give them the needed legal powers to give them direct and complete control of the U.K. railways to run them as they see fit without any interference being permitted - the U.K. trade unions have been responsible for holding back progress on the railways, so trade unions need to be banned on the railways, strikes/industrial actions need to be made illegal and/or all trade union leaders need to be arrested and/or jailed - rail fares would come down, stations and standards of service would improve, rail projects would be completed in half the time and for half the costs of current levels and the high speed rail tunnel under the Irish Sea from Holyhead to Dublin would quickly become a reality much sooner without being constantly shelved all the time

@GreenSignals Ай бұрын

You probably won’t be surprised to hear that wins the prize for daftest idea of the day. But thanks for listening to the show! 😊

@vg8022 Ай бұрын

All these conversations wouldn't be needed if the Tories actually built the HS2 on the budget they said they would do (I guess by limiting all the management on £250k to begin with ) in the 10 years they had in full control of the government. Now we're just blabing along and scratching our heads what to do with the useless 10% of the originally promised HS2 that will be built

@GreenSignals Ай бұрын

I do think whenever a major project goes wrong, the microscope should first be placed on the client. Which in this case was not HS2 Ltd.

@audigex Ай бұрын

"How can we make HS2 even worse than the current 1/4 of the original project version we're getting? I know! Let's reduce the train speeds by 25%"

@peterwilliamallen1063 Ай бұрын

Why !!!!

@slimchris113 Ай бұрын

@@peterwilliamallen1063 Not a great idea at all

@fatwalletboy2 Ай бұрын

It was showcased as the 225mph railway which I knew wouldnt happen and here it is getting dialled back to 186mph on the HS services.

@richardmellish2371 Ай бұрын

Given that this plan is for the currently expected extent of HS2, how much time difference end-to-end would that speed reduction actually make? Bear in mind that a lot of the public opposition to HS2 has been based on the misunderstanding that it is all about saving time which isn't going to be much anyway.

@GDGRailway47712 Ай бұрын

360km\h was a making up time speed, timetabled service speed would be 320km/h, so this is a reduction of 20km/h to 300km/h which is a 6.25% reduction, not 25%.

@BIGV710 Ай бұрын

i will not travel on any new trains again as the seats are not fit for the job like ironing boards the stupid dft should try travel on them from london kx to inverness not in 1st class but in 2 class but the so called prime minister does not travel by train he goes by helicopter

@GreenSignals Ай бұрын

Whilst I accept that some of the current seat designs are not great at all (though even then, different people have different tastes) , I'm not sure deciding not to travel by train is the best response.

@BIGV710 Ай бұрын

@@GreenSignals i will not travel by train again i use my 4 berth motorhome its cheaper and i can stop where ever i want for sleep and food cannot on a train

@tridentmusic5570 Ай бұрын

Ma- LIG.

@mrcogginsgarage7062 Ай бұрын

Thankyou Both my second mug arrived this morning Answer to this weeks question? In email.

@peterwilliamallen1063 Ай бұрын

Turbo Pendolino's, where did you get that one from. They won't be Pendolinos as when HS2 opens the reason for Virgin trains purchasing them for the twisty southern section of the WCML wont be used by Avanti West Coast trains the sole operator of HS2 as the HS2 line is going to be practically dead strait and even now Avanti are purchasing no more tilting trains having purchased the clas 805/807 Electic Diesel hybrid trains and replaceing the Voyager units. The Hitachi units are not Pendolinos, this is a name specfically given to the type of Italian Tilting train built in Italy

@GreenSignals Ай бұрын

I think you may have misunderstood. The whole point of Chris's plan is to modify the Cl. 390 Pendolino's for higher speeds and run them on HS2 intermingled with the new HS2 trains but with the 807s being cascaded away from West Coast. I am very familiar with the Class 390 Pendolinos having been on the Virgin team that bought them back in 1997. I can even lay claim to having written Schedule 5 of the contract (the technical specification) in commercial terms so they are a train I know and love! Whilst the bodyshells were fabricated in Italy and then assembled with the bogies there by Fiat Ferroviaria (although the electromechanically actuated tilting system actually originated from the Swiss company SIG before it became part of Fiat) , the traction package came from GEC Alsthom in Preston and then everything was assembled at GEC Alsthom in Washwood Heath, Birmingham.

@peterwilliamallen1063 Ай бұрын

@@GreenSignals The idea of HS2 is to speed up the WCML services which can't be done due to slower trains on this route, so HS2 covers this issue. By putting slower Pendolino trains on to HS2 which is a two track line with only 2 passing Stations at Birmingham Interchange and London Old Oak Common totaly defeats the object in that a 180 mph Pendolino will impead the progress of a 225/250 mph HS2 train and it all depends on the operator Avanti West Coast trains

@stuart48br Ай бұрын

The Chris Gibb plan retains tilt on Pendolino north of Handsacre because it is required to maintain or even improve journey times to Glasgow - Pendolinos don't just tilt on the Southern section of WCML. The increase in speed to 250kph is so that they can run on HS2 intermingled with HS2 trains running at 300kph. Why Pendolino - because the 11 car trains they can carry 20% more people than a 200mt HS2 train to maintain capacity on the key WCML routes to Manchester and Glasgow.

@peterwilliamallen1063 Ай бұрын

@@stuart48br What utter nonsence, both the existing WCML and HS2 will be operating similtaniousley and both being operated by Avanti West Coast trains, no matter what happens the Pendolinos have a desighn speeed of 140 MPH not being able to achieve more than 125 MPH due to two failed upgrades of the WCML and the line speed of HS2 is 250 MPH with HS2 trains operating at 225 mph with an 85 MPH diference between a Pendolino and a HS2 train, next with a Pendolino 85 MPH slower than an HS2 train running on a double track formation with only 2 passing points at Birmingham InterChange and London Old Oak Common explain how you intermingle these two trains on HS2, the Pendolino trains would hinder the HS2 services plus athey will be at the end of heir life cycle then and even Avanti West Coast is not purchasing new tilting trains now buying class 805 by model non tilting trains to replace the tilting Voyager trains it has. The upgrding would be too costly on the eldeley Pendolino trains plus the 110 restriction on non tilting trains on the WCML was for the titley curving Southern Section south of Crewe, North of Crew the curves are no worse than on the West of England main line where 50 year old HST trains did 125 MPH for years and now the class 800 IET trains on that route, oh in the UK we do not use KPH we use MPH for speed and there will be no problem with HS2 trains north of Crewe to Scotland in both speed and times

@stuart48br Ай бұрын

@@peterwilliamallen1063 I don't think that you have listened to the Chris Gibb interview or read the paper. The plan proposed by Chris, after consultation with many industry experts, was to upgrade the Pendolinos to 250kph (155mph in old money) which is feasible because that is the operating speed of ETR610 and 675 in Italy., and to run the HS2 trains at 300kph (186mph) initially. That's how you can intermingle them between OOC and Birmingham, and to run at 225kph (140mph) with tilt on straighter sections of WCML north of the border, using ETCS (when we will use kph). The proposal is for Angel Trains to fund the upgrade in return for extending the service life to 45 years. Pendolinos are not elderly, and 28% of the vehicles on the 11 car units are only 10 years old. Worth reading the paper before commenting.

@stevieinselby Ай бұрын

A few thoughts on Chris Gibb's proposal: 🚅 Could some HS2 trains be ordered with additional carriages to make them up to c.260m in the interim, with those carriages then being removed and reused as part of new 200m trains if/when phase 2 goes ahead allowing 400m trains north of Birmingham? That would avoid the risks associated with trying to upgrade the Pendos to 155mph and would lead to a more uniform speed profile which should improve pathing. The downsides I can see are (a) more cost up front, and (2) loss of tilting when back on the classic lines may give slower running times for some journeys entirely north of Birmingham. 🚅 Terminal turnaround times aren't just about physically getting trains in and out of the station throat. Yes, Charing Cross gets a high number of trains for a small number of platforms, but that's because there's no allowance for anything other than: train come in, people get off, people get on, train go out. That isn't good enough for intercity. There needs to be time to clean the train, restock the catering, and some allowance for recovery time and resilience. (At least these days we don't need to have someone running through the train putting out seat reservation labels). At San Pan, EMR have one platform for the Corby trains that _don't_ need a lot of TLC between journeys, and then 4 IC tph spread over the other 3 platforms. Avanti typically have 30-45 minute layovers at Euston. Squeezing 11 IC tph into 6 platforms sounds like a recipe for disaster. 🚅 I can't figure out his plan for Euston. Is he saying we should go ahead with building the OOC to Euston line but with most of the platforms at Euston being shorter than originally planned? Or building fewer platforms at Euston? Or something else altogether? Whichever way, my concern would be around compatibility with future plans and whether cutting the costs now would increase costs if we subsequently went ahead with phase 2 and needed to rebuild it.

@clgrlimited5578 Ай бұрын

Answers: the train order for 200m trains has been placed, and if it’s significantly varied now there won’t be any trains ready for 2030. The depot is also being built for 200m trains. On intercity turnarounds they do this kind of thing successfully in Tokyo on their high speed long distance services, and Ryanair do 25 minute turnarounds with one door. At Euston I’ve said initially build two new 400m platforms, and the rest for now as 266m platforms, in order to make it more affordable. I’d put a crash deck over the whole area ideally to allow development above now, and hopefully extend more platforms to 400m under it later.

@GreenSignals Ай бұрын

See Chris's comprehensive replies to your questions!

@Richardhill1978 Ай бұрын

What a fantastic episode I’m looking forward to to the manifestos that will be up picked in the next few weeks but I did see the political campaigns by trains is in full steam

@GreenSignals Ай бұрын

Thanks Richard. I'm not sure the election episode will be chokked full of detail from the political parties (but we live in hope!). Anyway, we will find plenty to talk about, even if it's to point out what's NOT there.....

@michaeljohndennis2231 Ай бұрын

@GreenSignals Ай бұрын

Fair to say I disagree with pretty much all of that. Thanks for the feedback though....