Watch this video on History of Weapons and War! www.weaponsandwar.tv/9-hole-reviews/videos/20260706-m1917-pa-7 CORRECTION: @blokeontherange has recently messaged me about the British doctrinal use of the Dial Sights, which I called Volley Sights on the P14 rifle (predecessor to the M1917). These are essentially extended range sights that officers would command their men to "area fire" at large groups of men at long range and NOT use as a substitution for MG suppression fire. Shot with M2 ball equivalent velocity 30-06 reloads using 155gr SMK. Sorry I forgot to put the info on the cartridge slide.

“An elegant weapon, for a more civilized age.”

I suspect all the problems were because you didn't lick your thumb, and get the front sight wet.

04:10 "What happened to the target?" You killed him Henry. You killed him.

"...they went full Norinco on the Mauser action..." LOL

You can still occasionally find 1917s harvesting moose in western Alaska villages. They were an issued rifle of Alaska guardsmen during WW2, and many remained in the villages long after their war service. These rifles aren't exactly heirloom quality, but most still shoot and .30-06 in the right hands can harvest anything walking in North America.

'Into the fires of hell, the Argonne, a hero to be, Came to the war from over the sea!'

I have a "red band" lend lease returned 1917. They were used in WWII for home island defense and training. Some British armorer fine-tuned the trigger and it breaks like glass. Extremely accurate. That was my Dad's rifle in WWI.

There on that day Alvin York entered the fray Saving the day 82nd all the way

This is the rifle still in use TODAY by the Sirius Dog Sled Patrol which is a Danish Naval Unit in charge of patrolling costal Greenland. It is the only rifle that they tested that would reliably function in the extreme cold the temperatures they face.

Great job on telling Sgt. York's story Henry! I am a former seasonal interpreter that worked at the Sgt. York State Park in his tiny hometown of Pall Mall, Tennessee. He was given a nice two story house, paid for with donations from the American people. It still stands today thankfully! Some details I always shared when I told the story is the firefight began and ended with the best friends of both Sgt. York and Lt. Volmer being killed (Volmer was an acting major so he was even worse off with extra responsibilities but no extra pay). Sgt. York's best friend Murray Savage was tragically among the Americans killed at the beginning of the firefight by the German maxim gun. He is mentioned in the Sgt. York movie "as being cut in half," by the machinegun fire, but Savage was never fleshed out as a character, only mentioned in passing in the movie. The best explanation for why the Germans tried a bayonet charge I believe was they were paranoid about friendly fire, but yes, it is still strange they didn't attempt to return fire with their rifles. Perhaps they were too paranoid that they would also be picked off if they tried sticking their heads out, instead of simply charging down the hill as a group. They obviously didn't consider York had a 1911 as well as his rifle. The German leading that charge was Lt. Volmer's best friend, attempting a rescue. He was shot and mortally wounded by York's .45. Volmer believed there were more Americans in their rear so he wanted to cut his unit's losses and try to save his dying friend by surrendering. The other 7 surviving members of the American patrol were overlooked for commendations in my opinion, however York was rightfully chosen for honors because he snatched victory from the jaws of defeat by doing the most damage, (which also allowed the larger Meuse-Argonne offensive to break through German lines and sever a key railroad for German supplies, forcing them to withdraw), and also by managing to stay in command long enough for him and the surviving patrol members to find more Americans to turn over the German prisoners. This is already a long comment but I have one more interesting story to share about the 1903 Springfield vs 1917 rifle debate! My memory is a little foggy but while I was at the park, an interesting letter Sgt. York wrote to another Sergeant from the same division as him (1919 or 1920 dated?) turned up. York wrote to him asking if he still had that Springfield rifle, that was the one he did his shooting with. I am frustrated I forgot the Sergeant's name, but the museum curator did confirm this other sergeant was a gas casualty just before York's patrol would have moved out into the line. The scraps of evidence do suggest York may have had the chance to swap his 1917 for a 1903 Springfield while this other sergeant was being carried out of the line, but then the question becomes how did this other Sergeant get a 1903 for himself when their division all had model 1917s. I've shot both rifles live and I love them both, but the 1917 with it's extra pound of weight (9 and a half pounds vs 8 and 1/2 for the 1903) and wider butt plate make it much nicer to shoot than the 1903 with it's narrow butt plate. I bruised my shoulder the first time I shot an 1903, not so with the 1917. Great Video and thanks again for telling York's story!

According to Alvin Yorks son, he was told by Alvin that he swapped rifles with another soldier that had a 1903 because he preferred the sights. He even wrote in his diary that he hated the British sights.

The timing, the coincidence, its impeccable. Right after I buy a 1917 this video drops🇺🇸🦅

I own an Eddystone made right here in PA. Othias from CandR Arsenal is a huge fan of the Pattern 14/Model 1917 rifle.

4:10 “He’s dead, Jim …”

The clusterfuck of many different varied forms of complicated sight systems that the 1903 and 1917 had and went through were largely because of all the different ordnance officers involved had their own weird and wacky preferences for their target shooting competitions and wanted to force those onto the new service rifle after being dissatisfied with the krag and rolling block for competition usage. The 1903 went through something like 6 entirely different sight systems/patterns more than 8+ times before settling on the 1903 production pattern.

The M-1917 saw a lot of use in Canada, we purchased 80,000 of them at the beginning of WW2, they were used for training, then passed on to the RCAF, and the Pacific Coast Militia Rangers. The PCMR loved them, as long as they were patrolling by boat. They found them a bit cumbersome in the forest, but appreciated their power.

My friend and I bought 2 P17's in the late 80's. They were in unfired condition and had orange paint dabbed on the woodwork, which I believe indicated that they were British Home Guard issue and 30/06 calibre. We both won numerous Military Comps with these fabulously accurate rifles. We noticed both rifles shot roughly 6" high regardless of distance. I read that this was deliberate as the Troops were trained to shoot using a 'belt' hold. Or maybe it was the 150g Military ball ammo we used. Unfortunately both rifles are now well sold but I will never forget what a joy they were to shoot. Great vid, thank you.

Hearing a former US Army officer excitedly describe a well over 100 year old Medal of Honor action, and getting even more excited that maybe it was with a good ole American Winchester, and that officer is an immigrant….? Man I love this country.

My 2nd deer rifle. While growing up in West Columbia I was given an Enfield 303 British, however I wanted a more powerful cartridge rifle,(don't know why as you're lucky to see 50 to 100 yards in the woods there) I swapped the Enfield for the 30-06 Springfield, as British .303 ammo was hard to find in the 70s S.E.Texas.30-06 was everywhere.

I was waiting for this rifle for so long... Thank you very much!

We sent a lot of 1917s to the British from existing stores. They issued them to the Home Guard, along with Thompsons and .30-06 Lewis Guns. That way they could arm the Home Guard to free up arms for the Army and keep the logistic chains for American calibers and British calibers separate.

I'm so glad that I have one of these rifles. Mine was lend leased and became a Danish Polar Defense Rifle, designated M53, and then came back home in the '90s as surplus. Dad bought it to have a deer rifle and thankfully he never sporterized it. My rifle is an Eddystone, that was never rebarreled.

Alvin C York State Park in Pall Mall Tennessee [ just north of Jamestown Tn.] is well worth seeing if you are ever in the area.

As Hickok45 often points out, Alvin York was a proud son of Tennessee. The Boers were indirectly responsible for the 1917 Enfield. The British faced accurate and flat shooting 7x57 charger loaded '93 Mausers in the Boer War. After modifying the Long Lee Enfield to charger loading and shortening it to create the SMLE, they developed the .276 (7mm) cartridge and the Mauser derived P13. But for WWI, this could well have led to the demise of the .303 cartridge and the SMLE.

The 1917 Enfield was also a star of the Battle of Athens, Tennessee in 1946

You have no idea how long I’ve been waiting for this to drop! By far my favorite bolt gun.

The original British design was the P1913 and it was chambered in rimless .276 Enfield or the 7x60. The British were at the time trying to replace the 303 but WW1 got started before they could make the switch.

Thank you. I have been waiting for this one. The shift in sighting mind set was very informative. I believe the P13/P14/M1917 was the first one that integrated a peep rear sight as standard, a concept that was used on most Western military rifles made after- BAR, the Thompson, Garand, Carbine and beyond. Awesome rifle! Thanks again.

I visited the Alvin C. York state historic site several years ago. The rangers there at the time were very knowledgeable. When I asked the question about which rifle York used they knew where I was coming from with the question. According to them Alvin's son Andrew who had worked there before his passing insisted that his father never liked "that English rifle." That leads me to believe he used a Springfield.

Moment of silence for that target that got dropped lol

One of my all time favorite rifles!!

Henry, I think it's time for you to do a "shooting with iron sights" masterclass. This type of shooting isn't easy and I think I'd be great to learn.

I also watched Victory at Sea growing up. My father had been a combat photographer in the Pacific during World War II. Sometimes while we were watching Victory at Sea, He would point out pictures, or films (he did both) that he had taken. I did not think anyone of your generation would have every seen Victory At Sea. I am glad you got to see it.

My grandfather was a radio man in a 4.2" mortar battalion. He was issued A P-17 in basic and took it when he was shipped to the Pacific. He later was given an M-1 carbine.

I`d love to see this done using ballistic lab dummies for targets, then assess the differences in damage at the different distances...

Love this! As a younger man I made the decision that I wanted to a WW1 American rifle to go with my WW2 Garand. After much research I decided to seek out a M1917. 8 months of see nearly no be available I happened on the one. It was in such great shape that I purchased it even though it was about $75 more than I was expecting to pay. Many years later when my first son became big enough to lift it, it became his favorite rifle, and the shooting/history bug was passed down to another generation.

I always remember reading about the war in Philippines after the Japanese conquest and the Filipino troops claiming that though the Enfield was heavier, it stood up to conditions that put the Springfield out of usability.

I discovered the Model 1917 seven years ago and like Henry it is one of my favorite rifles. Also like Henry I pair it with the Colt 1911 that my great uncle carried in France in 1918. He was in the 89th infantry division at Staint Mihiel and then the Meuse-Argonne when the armistice ended operations. The 89th did occupation duty and uncle Frank finally came home in the summer of 1919.

This story and video was so good, I actually listened to the WHOLE THING. Thank you Henry and Josh!

I have a Winchester. Amazing rifle, greatly prefer it over the 1903. It was also the first , secondary, service rifle to out produce it's main counterpart.

One of your best ever. Liked the history lesson at the end. Thank you!

My grandfather who grew up in rural Illinois, was with the 90th Infantry Division (Tough Ombres!) during WWI and carried an M1917. He always said he liked the M1917 and had only one complaint, it was one heavy sum-of-a-bitch! Later in life, his hunting rifle was a NRA sporterized M1903, "cuz I got it cheap" oh and his hunting shotgun was a rabbit eared LC Smith side by side in 12 Ga. No fancy pump gun like my dad used. Damn I miss them both. :(

Great video! A note about the M1917 in WW2. They were used in training stateside. IIRC it saw use with the Philippine Army in 1941-1942 as well as with Guerillas during the Japanese occupation. They were also supplied (ironically) to the British following Dunkirk to make up for an arms shortage. These can be identified with a red band marked .30-06 to differentiate them from P14s that were brought out at the same time. Additionally they were supplied in some quantity to Free French units in 1944.

WOW, Definitely your best video yet. Awesome piece of history!!!

I’ve been waiting on this one a very long time. I have one and it shoots superbly.

Now this is an episode I’ve been wanting for a long time

That 450 yd. Target DEFINITELY WIGGLED, like a hit.

I've always preferred the M1917 to the M1903. Also, nothing about the Sirius sled patrol....

Had to break out my 03-A3 and handle it as you told his story. Great work! Enjoy your content!

Absolutely love my 1903A3... Don't shoot it too often, but it still gets the job done.. Thanks for the fantastic history lesson, and keep up the great work 👍

Now im no expert, but from my experience of research (amateurly), i would say the 1903 was a better target rifle, while the 1917 Enfield was a better combat rifle. That being said, both performed admirably during the war and served the US well.

Always great content. Thanks

If you have not already done so, I urge you to go out of your way and visit Pall Mall, Tennessee and see where Sgt Alvin York lived and is buried. His home, his grave, his church, his land, the humble community. And humble is the word. Everything he pursued in life before and after the war was for the betterment of his humble home and community on the Wolf River as a farming region. Beautiful place and his family general store makes a good hamburger.

As a modern Holographic sight hipster, I like the M1917's idea of using the entire bracket as a focus

Pfc. York would have adjusted, and he would have had no problem using the M-17. He was sighting the weapon's limitations. Cool Story! When I checked many years ago, the .30-06 was the most prolific cartridge in the world. That was a couple of decades ago. I would live to see how the new .277 cartridge performs next to it.

God Bless you boys - your work is truly a delight to watch.

Ooh, I’ve been waiting for this one

Great content as usual.

Howdy Henry & Josh, you guys hit on a few of my historical soap box rants. No one likes unsolicited lunatic ramblings, but it’ll bother me if I don’t speak up haha The three things I want to touch on are: 1) The M1917 outnumbered the M1903… sort of 2) The movie might actually be right about York using a 1903 3) The controversy surrounding the story of York’s MoH 1) Yes, technically there were a lot more men with M1917s in France by the end of WWI, but this is misleading. The US made an effort to standardize arms within divisions to simplify logistics. The “regulars” in divisions 1-6 and the first three Nat’l Guard divisions deployed (26th, 32nd, 42nd) were equipped with the M1903. The rest of the NG (mostly) and the conscripts received M1917s. With roughly three dozen divisions sent to France before armistice (a few broken up for replacements), this shakes out to about 70% M1917s, 25% M1903s, and 5% under British command with SMLEs (27th & 30th). This falls apart a bit when you consider the timeline of US involvement. US infantry was first actively engaged in late October 1917, just over 12 months before armistice. It wasn’t until the 77th arrived in April 1918 that there was an M1917-equipped division in France. They’d first see action a few months later in June/July. This means the M1917 played no role in the first half of active US involvement on the Western Front, which is also why most of the propaganda posters don’t depict it. The M1903 continued to outnumber the M1917 in France until the 90th arrived in June. They would first see action in August. So the M1903 outnumbered the M1917 in the trenches for the first two-thirds of America’s involvement on the Western Front. In the last four months of the war, the bulk of the volunteers and conscripts poured in and the M1917 finally outnumbered the M1903. 2) York’s division, the 82nd not-yet-airborne, was a conscript division equipped with the M1917. In his diary he talks about training with an M1903, and then his unit later having them all replaced with M1917s. So the (very logical) conclusion is that he had an M1917, if not for a letter he wrote in 1920 to a friend where he says: “Say James do you remember that little Springfield rifle that you gave me as we went up to the front line. That is the rifle that I did my shooting with. I used it and my Colts [sic] pistol.” This letter is in the collection of the Alvin C. York Foundation. It was sent to Sgt. James Percy Cooper, who served in a medical detachment during the war. From what a volunteer with the Foundation told me, Cooper was assigned to (or just stationed adjacent to) York’s regiment. They met and became friends. York brought up his fondness for the M1903 he had in training. Cooper was in a unit that had M1903s, so he offered to trade rifles. That letter is the only hard evidence I’ve seen of this interaction, though. I have the pdf scan of the letter. Can find a way to send it to you if you're curious. I’m unsure how they determined what rifles to issue support units, but it seems unlikely they’d be different than the division they were attached to. The 82nd fought adjacent to the 1st and 42nd in the Meuse-Argonne, with the 2nd and 32nd also in the area. It’s possible Cooper was attached to one of those M1903-equipped divisions and they met during staging or something. The story is very farfetched, but the clear wording in the letter is difficult to brush aside. 3) In recent years there has been a push to collect the stories of the other men on York’s MoH patrol, and they paint a somewhat different picture of events. It is now believed that York’s actions may have been embellished somewhat (without his input) by the staff as a political move to help their careers. I highly recommend this lecture on the topic if you have an hour to spare: youtu.be/watch?v=vbxh2aivmgQ

got one of these at an auction last year in really nice shape, happy to see it on the course!

Really enjoyed this! Thanks

Great video! Great looking rifle!

Henry shooting at up to 500 yards with iron sights and still hitting with so few misses is almost superhuman! I have a lot of trouble shooting that accurate at a 100m let alone over 400m!

I love my Eddystone 1917. Very accurate rifle

04:10 "Neutralized!"

Arguably the best bolt action rifle of the war.

Thanks for the video, I very much enjoyed the passion Henry has for history. Up here across the medicine line we saw both Pattern 14 as well as M1917 rifles for sale as surplus in the '60's - along with Mk III and No 4 Mk 1 LE rifles of course. Strangely enough, on the Pattern 14/M 1917 front, I can recall only seeing a handful of Winchester made rifles. We'd see about a 2:1 ratio of Eddystone to Remington made rifles I want to say, but that's going off a semi-old guy's memories from a long time ago. We also saw a bunch of the Pattern 14/M1917 rifles "sporterized" as well, many with the original barrels which shot amazingly well. All the best.

Would love one of those old gems.

Fellas, outstanding work as usual!!! Perhaps a deeper dive into the 1911 component of the story??? It will save me a trip to the WW1 museum in Kansas City, and I am a Raider fan!!! Keep up the good work !!! Thanks again!!!

After World War II, the Japan Ground Self-Defense Force also used this rifle and a sniper rifle with a scope. They are displayed at the Weapons School of the Self-Defense Force.

Decades ago when I built my WWI collection I managed to acquire a P14 and P17. One was a Winchester and the other was an Eddystone. The P17 had a red band painted around the forward stock and heat-shield. This was because it had been part of the massive WWII lend-lease program of rifles that were used to arm the British Home Guard. They were also issued P14s chambered in 303. To avoid confusion, the red band was added to identify rifles chambered in 30-06. Sadly, I disposed of my entire collection years ago before the current collector's craze began. As to why the Army dropped the P17, I suspect it was due in part to its weight and handling. The Springfield wasn't as durable, but it was a pound lighter and a couple of inches shorter, making it more balanced and handier, which any soldier will prefer. Also, the government arsenals were set up to make Springfields, not P17s, and I doubt they wanted any civilian competition.

I had a piece of 1/8” glow orange Perspex glued to the front blade on my Garand. Did much the same with other service rifles too. Counter intuitively, the wide, flat top made it easier to gauge windage than the narrow blade. A round target looked like an apple on an oil drum and any deviation from centre was obvious. I’ve also reworked these and P14 actions to cock-on-opening with fast lock time. Wouldn’t do it to an original collectable rifle though. Great video on Sgt. York! 👍🏻

Henry, Thanks for the detailed explanation on your sight alignment issues / modified technique. It might be helpful information for dealing with larger apertured peep sights.

Thanks for this video! The M1917 is a great rifle. It will more than hold its own at a CMP competition, and I personally like it just a bit more than the 1903A3. The reason the US Army didn’t adopt the M1917 after WW1 was because it didn’t have easy windage adjustment. Back then the opinion of competition shooters at Camp Perry were held in very high regard, and the 1903’s sights were particularly well suited for competition shooting. I like to think that some elements of the 1917 - the wings on either side of the rear sight, the front sight with the wings - inspired features of the M1 Garand.

On my Winchester M1917, i solved the “large rear aperture” issue via a piece of blue painter’s tape and a fine punch and die set. The rear aperture is now < 0.063” and works great.

Absolutely love your program. I’m 64 and wanted more than anything to serve in our military ! Wasn’t able because of thyroid medication. I have had a true love of military weapons. One of my all time favorites that I’ve owned and shot was the FN-39 in 30-06 ! I would love to see how it stacks up compared to this -06. I presently shoot an Styer-AUG standard in 556 with 16-3/4” barrel all stock other than Matech rear and Ultradyne C4 front for primary and Eotech for back up !

Thanks for making it that much harder to find a good deal on the M1917. Good content though!

Much as I love the Springfield, I will stand on the hill that this was the better rifle. It certainly looks nicer than the Springfield.

Noticed your bottle of Dalwhinnie, one of my favorite single malts. Another would be Glenrothes. Really enjoy your channel, Thank you.

My M1917 is my absolute favorite in my collection. Such a fantastic looking and shooting rifle

I had a great uncle in WWII. He and a lot of contemporary’s would modify the rear sight on the Garand.

I have a 1917 that i picked up with zero hesitation after spotting it on a table in a gun show from 6 years ago. The rear aperture is quite wide, compared to my M1 i have noticed needing to pay particular attention to my sight picture, and i never quite put it together to use the wings in addition to the front sight blade til i saw this. Gonna try that out a little later, thanks Henry!

Former army 12b! I was plt armor! And expert on rifle and mechine gun! Love your videos! You tech good! Just found your videos today!

I have a sporterized Remington Model 17 as a field carry PA deer, elk, bear rifle.

I have got one of these rifles, Winchester production. I also have a couple of modern, more expensive rifles, but this old gun is by far my favorite. It often gets out on the range while my modern ones rarely see daylight.

My boy, my beautiful boy! While I have made hits out to 500m (on 16" gongs so much bigger targets than you guys) I concur that the sight picture being that gross makes it more difficult than it should be for such accurate rifles. I've found personally backing off the rear sight a bit and that front sight assembly focus works pretty well.

Great discussion! My grandfather carried an M1917 during the Great War; I had one for a while. Selling it was one of my most frustrating sales bloopers. FWIW, I have a low-number Springfield with that complex ladder sight. The combat notch is so tiny, I can hardly discern it.

The use of the M1917 in WW2 has intriqued me for years. I think it was used a lot for guard duty, training, etc. I have a pic of my dad who was in the Navy (I believe during boot camp) and he is holding a M1917. Later as an adult I became friends with a Korea War area vet who was an armorour. His rifle was also an M1917 as he was never deployoed over to Korea.

I join you intellectually, and humorously...thanks Henry! You're fabulous!

Wasn't the reason for the complex sight on the 1903 William Crozier the chief of army ordinance?

York's famous action occurred just over 1 month before Germany surrendered. I imagine it was a very demoralized unit before Cpl (acting) York ever laid eye's on them.

In the idealized version of Alvin York's MoH story, he was armed with a M1903 and then stopped the bayonet charge with a 1911, making sure to shoot the last German in the column first gradually working his way to the front so that the ones in front did not see their comrades falling. There are supporters of both camps (M1917+Luger P-08 vs. M1903+M1911) and they've all done their research. The thing is, either way, York was walking on water that day, and he could have yelled at the Germans to do handstands all the way to the American line and they would have obeyed him. John "Mad Jack" Churchill (not related to PM Winston although a namesake of the 1st Duke of Marlborough, Winston's ancestor), a WW2 British Commando who fought using a longbow and a Scottish broadsword (claymore) and brought and played his bagpipes, too, said that the Germans, even in WW2, seemed to heed someone in authority, and if he was confident and if he gave orders in a really loud voice, they obeyed.

Awesome to watch. I used to shoot a lot of military rifle matches when I still livwd in Europe. I owned a 1917 Eddy Stone, but would shoot my matches with a friends 1903, because I much preferred its sights.

Thanks for an excellent review of t h e rifle.

My first center fire rifle was the M1917. I love that rifle. I've always used the ears to help center the front sight on any rifle with ears - provided the front post is centered between the ears. M1917, M1 Garand, M14, M16. Seems like the M1917 is the only one with a drift adjustable front site post that may not be centered on the American rifles. I've got a couple pictures of my Grandpa and Camp Funston (Ft Riley) with his M1917 before they shipped out to WWI.

❤❤❤❤ 9-Hole Reviews!! 🇺🇸

Forgotten Weapons (IAN) has noted he prefers the P1917 too

I knew a miss would inevitably come, but there was still that bit of hope that the 1917 would ace the course.

A little more background" The Pattern 1913 Enfield (P'13) was an experimental rifle developed by the Royal Small Arms Factory for the British Army as a result of its combat experience in the Second Boer War from 1899 to 1902. The weapon was to serve as a replacement for the Short Magazine Lee-Enfield (SMLE). An advanced chamber design allowed for a high-velocity .276 Enfield rimless round, which was more powerful than the service-issued .303 British cartridge. Introduction of the P'13 was rendered impractical by the outbreak of the First World War.