Wow... I am seeing Dawkins in a new light. More friendly and patient in this conversation. This was a good conversation and thanks Justin for moderating it. This is teaching the present world that we can have opposite opinions and worldviews and still have friendly meaningful conversations. And many thanks to Collins too.

I truly enjoyed this discussion.

Plz share full conversation video.

0:38. "We live in a universe that follows laws."

Much as I'm sympathetic to religion, I also don't see any reason to suspend normal logical thinking for specific supernatural incidents in history

Special pleading is Collins argument. Seems like he wants to believe.

The basic irrationality: An argument that should convince you out of your belief, is not good enough to convince me out of mine.

I signed up but where do I get the extended conversation?

"Superlogical," after Blaise Pascal, is a good word Dawkins might consider. But he refuses. I used to believe as Dawkins does, but then many things happened--thank God--and I cannot unsee what I see now.

Thank you for the arguments from both guests. I am glad to see that Richard Dawkins has adopted a friendly way to express his opposite views. Obviously Richard has put scientific principles ahead of everything while Francis sees that scientific laws are created and serve God. So it is faith that has made the difference. Somehow I want to pray for Richard that he may have this faith. 🙂

Listening to Richard try to reason on the Scriptures tells me although he may have read the text, he certainly did not study the text because he's missing the entire theme of the Bible. At the same time we have to remember that God literally keeps the truth from people who aren't humble, no matter how much you study the scriptures, if you aren't sincerely interested in knowing the truth, he will carefully hide the truth from you. Luke 10:21

2:50 So there was a miracle time. None before that and none after that. What!? ----so no miracles during Old Testament time?

Collins is right. Scientism is not the same as science. Scientism is an ideology.

Pearls to swine. Move on from this guy.

Is this the same Francis Collins who was emailing with Dr Fauci about how to manage the communications about the COVID-19 pandemic?

1:00 Miraculous intervention: 'Moments of remarkable importance to convey a message to his creatures, you and me.' "Yes! The perfect parking spot, Thanks God---the best to your son." Once you go down that road there is no parsing miracle from nature. The basic God message is, Nature, reality is not real.

As a recipient of multiple miracles, I can tell you that Yahweh is interacting as much, if not more than ever before. He is getting ready for the Big Show but, of course, His time is the perfect time. He is speaking to a world gone deaf and blind regarding Him.

As much as I disagree with Dawkins on a lot of aspects, I think he’s right on the ball here.

FFS he had the ear of the most powerful man on the planet 😮

But why is God mute? If God were truly all powerful and actually cared about our salvation he would give us all clear instructions in acway all of us could understand. But He never does.

Believing in miracles is a miracle in itself.

Quantum Physics has shown that Reality is based on Probabilities. A statistical impossibility is defined as *_“a probability that is so low as to not be worthy of mentioning. Sometimes it is quoted as 1/10^50 although the cutoff is inherently arbitrary. Although not truly impossible the probability is low enough so as to not bear mention in a Rational, Reasonable argument."_* The probability of finding one particular atom out of all of the atoms in the universe has been estimated to be 1/10^80. The probability of a functional 150 amino acid protein chain forming by chance is 1/10^164. It has been calculated that the probability of DNA forming by chance is 1/10^119,000. The probability of random chance protein-protein linkages in a cell is 1/10^79,000,000,000. Based on just these three cellular components, it would be far more *Rational and Reasonable* to conclude that the cell was not formed by undirected random natural processes. Note: Abiogenesis Hypothesis posits that un-directed random natural processes, i.e. random chance formation, of molecules led to living organisms. Natural selection has no effect on individual atoms and molecules on the micro scale in a prebiotic environment. (*For reference, peptides/proteins can vary in size from 3 amino acid chains to 34,000 amino acid chains. Some scientists consider 300-400 amino acid protein chains to be the average size. There are 42,000,000 protein molecules in just one (1) simple cell, each protein requiring precise assembly. There are approx. 30,000,000,000,000 cells in the human body.) Furthermore, of all the physical laws and constants, just the Cosmological Constant alone is tuned to a level of 1/10^120; not to mention the fine-tuning of the Mass-Energy distribution of early universe which is 1/ 10^10^123. Therefore, in the fine-tuning argument, it would be more *Rational and Reasonable* to conclude that the multi-verse is not the correct answer while trying to determine the origin of the universe. A "Miracle" is considered to be an event with a probability of occurrence of 1/10^6. Abiogenesis, RNA World Hypothesis, and Multiverse would all far, far, far exceed any "Miracle". Yet, these extremely *Irrational and Unreasonable* hypotheses are what many of the world’s top scientists _‘must’_ believe in and promote because of a prior commitment to a strictly arbitrary, subjective, biased, narrow, limiting, materialistic ideology / worldview. Every idea, number, concept, thought, theory, mathematical equation, abstraction, qualia, Information, etc. existing within and expressed by anyone is "Immaterial" or "Non-material". The very idea or concept of "Materialism" is an immaterial entity and by it's own definition does not exist. Modern science seems to be stuck in archaic, subjective, biased ideologies that have inadequately attempted to define the "nature of reality" or the "reality of nature" for millenia. A Paradigm Shift in ‘Science’ is needed for humanity to advance. A major part of this Science Paradigm Shift would be the formal acknowledgment by the scientific community of the existence of "Immaterial" or "Non-material" entities as verified and confirmed by discoveries in Quantum Physics.

Enjoyed this tidbit though I wish the fact that miracles reportedly continued through Jesus’ disciples , including thru Paul who also reportedly raised the dead, would be discussed.

Francis Collins said ''I believe in Jesus' resurrection and without it my Christian faith doesn't have any substance'' In which case, it looks like your Christian faith doesn't have any substance LMFAO Dawkins was friendly here and not hostile because he aknowledges and respects Francis Collins as a fellow biologist who has been involved with huge scientific discoveries. he just rejects any of the unnecessary supernatural stuff, as do i

why would someone want to accept Jesus, they would have to humble themselves, they would have to try and refrain from some of the most pleasurable things, they would have to realize there is someone greater than them. I understand why

Once God creates sentient creatures with emotions and ability to suffer, he can't do whatever he wants. He can't sit back and say suffering is because of sin or there is reason for it. Even God can't be above laws of justice and fairness

Do you?

Look at the bottom of the gulf of Aqaba - find lots of chariot wheels, axles and some thigh bones from Egypt sea crossing.

I think that naturalism requires even greater miracles, because it has miracles with no governor, no miracle maker. I think this makes Dawkins faith greater than the Christians.

I’m not a Christian. But Dawkins’ lack of understanding of the most basic concepts in theology and facts about religion is truly startling. Anyone who’s seriously read the God Delusion knows he has virtually no idea what he’s talking about. Admittedly because he doesn’t consider it a valid field of study. Yet proceeds to wade into topics in which he finds himself hopelessly out of his depth. See virtually any discussion he’s ever had with serious, non-YEC Christian and Jewish theologians and scholars.

I don't think Mr. Dawkins is going to face judgement . There is a subtle difference between a 'god-fearing' and a 'pious'. Dawkins is free from any guilt ensuing out of 'god-fear' .

Although I side with Collins, he has given us reason to doubt whether he'd follow through on his willingness to, *"I will be happy to listen to their arguments"* (see ~ 3;50) This was his modus operandi when faced with a different conundrum, Hi Tony and Cliff, This proposal from the three fringe epidemiologists who met with the Secretary seems to be getting a lot of attention - and even a co-signature from Nobel Prize winner Mike Leavitt at Stanford. There needs to be a quick and devastating published take down of its premises. I don't see anything like that on line vet - is it underway? Francis or his declaration that we can say with great confidence that Covid originated in nature?

There ARE miracles that happened after those years: our Lady of Guadalupe, eucharistic miracles, saints like Padre Pio, etc!

Dawkins is stuck in a purely scientific world, whereas Collins has added to his scientific world by embracing the truth of Jesus Christ.

3:28 Here is the rub, as I see it. For Collins reality is such that the natural and the supernatural co-exist on the same stage, as it were. For Dawkins reality is such that nature is natural, and the slightest real miracle would destroy nature as nature. Dawkins has taken to heart the biblical advice No man can serve two masters. To Collins and like believers, it seems to me, falls the task of explaining the relationship between the supernatural and the natural, exactly how they share the stage without nature falling off.

I'm a Christian, but I don't believe this to be a slam-dunk conversation. Not at all. Rather, two intelligent men begin with very different understandings regarding the nature of reality. Their conclusions are, respectively, inevitable.

He’s more patient and friendly because he knows that some day he’s not gonna be the famous scientist anymore and he has to face judgment 😮 It’s dawning on him…

So Francis is suggesting further reading when he is in a discussion? It must mean that that book contains the definitive answer and he cant convey it to us.

Dawkins is a legend.

Anybody who starts of by referring to god and to it as “he” is clearly starting from a false premise and will not be argued with.

Cognitive dissonance is fascinating.

Evidence for the resurrection? Zero.

Well , the problem is when you take poor biblical interpretations to argue against something like why God allows natural disasters , you end up looking rather foolish. I believe God did create all things , but then the miracles mentioned in the Bible are small and insignificant in comparison to all His creation until that time.

If reasonable people like Collins can be so irrational what does it say about humanity.

When you have a renowned scientist believing that Jonah was swallowed by whale, no arguments can change his mind.

The Existence is a miracle

does the guy with the stach _really_ believe that? i mean..really?

Dawkins' arguments basically amount to "it doesnt make sense to me". He has nothing else to say. Void of any actually sophisticated argument

I feel a pity on Dawkins, God has mercy on him, save him

How can a smart man like Francis Collins believe in this nonsense

Dawkin's is my hero. I am always fascinated by atheist persons! Faith is not evidence based science. Faith is turning away from science for some so called 'humanist reasoning' .

Ironically, Richard Dawkins as well as most people believe in a miracle, I.e., the supernatural… As he believes in the “some-thing” called the universe, which came in existence from “no-thing”… By definition a super-natural”…”miraculous” occurrence.

There are thousands of miracles done by Saints.

For every house is builded by some man; but he that built all things is God. Hebrews 3:4 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Romans 1:20

As God is the author & creator of all life, His immutable laws of nature are actually proven by His exceptions to those laws, which we call "miracles". I personally have been delivered from death-defying experiences in which others died, but I was not harmed except in my mind being traumatized by seeing others harmed.God is very active in our world & gave many guidelines for life. He can suspend His natural order when it suits His longterm will. Accepting this is crucial, at least to me, to claim faith in His existemce, & His being a good, benvolent Father. I enjoyed this discussion. I listened to Dr Clyde Narramore of Biola University all throughout the 70s-80s on christian radio. I learned to question, but to trust that God would answer. Amazing, respectful discourse, much needed in our world today.

Christians trying to explain how God can do anything sounds like a comicon conversation lol

The earliest accounts that we have of Jesus' supposed resurrection comes at least 100 years after its supposed happening. That is not a reliable eyewitness account.

I have witnessed miracles with medical proof!

Dear Viewers, Because we don't know :- 1) who created the universe? 2) Who created life on this planet ? 3) Is there any life on any other planet? 4) Is there a soul with every living thing including humans? 5) what happens to us when we loose physical form? 6) Is it possible to create space and matter from scratch? 7) Is it possible for a person to come alive after his/her death, after the body as been destroyed, in the same physical form can god do it? 8) Is it possible for spirit to travel to other planet or can living talk to them? 9) Is God a person? and many such haunting questions like these has no answers .. we assume there is a great power which set all these things in motion. Science has no means to answer questions related to non material/intangible things like aakasha, soul, spirit, ether, space, field etc .. it has no means to answer such questions , so what science can not answer(as of now) we attribute it to great power god .. which or whose god i m not sure .. Namaste

Francis Collins is a lunatic, his silly smile says it all.

what Bible scholars doesn't believe in miracles. please answer

Before,you talk about god why don't you learn the truths about why we may have , different climates ,wether conditions, tornados, earthquakes in different regions on the planet first.

A brilliant scientist believes in the supernatural. I find that breathing and disturbing.

It's interesting that the whole tenure of the Qur'an is against miracles. Did God really split the sea for Moses and the Israelites? Or was it a natural phenomena due to tides and the wind?

And Collins should read Bart Erhman's argument about the implausibility of the resurrection story given that the burial itself would have been highly exceptional from a historical point of view. Or perhaps he should look into Richard Carrier's proposal of the whole thing to be a myth. After all, these Christians exhibit significant wishful thinking and confirmation bias when they only look at Jesús resurrection but at the same time they reject the possible resurrection of other deities previous to Jesus, which suspiciously had very similar stories. Dawkins was right to call him out on his unscientific attitude.

Collins is very smart. But.... There is no such thing as god, any god. He should know that.

Believing the unbelievable is impossible.

I'm 57 now. As middle age approached, my religious faith waned, and I eventually wore an uncomfortable "Atheist" coat for a while. While I'm back to being a believer of sorts, I'm still very sympathetic to Dawkins, though I find the materialist/non-materialist debate to be mostly pointless. Regarding the resurrection, the real resurrection that Christians should be focused on is the one that is suppose to happen in their own life. The real Christian message is that WE can be brought back to life in this life. So I honestly don't care if Jesus (assuming he really existed) was actually raised from the dead, or if it's simply a myth that speaks to our deepest truth.

I mean what's the big deal of beileving in miracles if you believe in God that's really dumb

I dont think Francis really believes what he says he does….he wants to, badly. But many people, such as many dear to me, are not capable of realising belief is not a matter of choice … F Collins is NOT ‘allowing for possibility’ only. The way I see it is, he sort of needs to accept such highly improbable possibility. We all are allowing it, but are consistently dissuaded by realities we see and face…Basically, most people (including those that declare to believe in a God - as most find it terrifying to think there are none) actually think it is EXTREMELY unlikely resurrection occurred 😁

Mr Collins really needs to get some good therapy if he believes in miracles. How can anyone who is very obviously intelligent be so deluded as to believe in God.

I see alot of people doubting the reserection miracle, so I present you with another perspective from the Islamic Faith where we also have mass testified miracles which have a chain of narration of witness passing down the miracle that they all saw. According to David Hume, he would accept a miracle if it was mass testified, and I believe that the Miracles of the prophet was

Imagine being as intelligent as Collins and yet still believing in the most childish hogwash

And I’m allowing the possibility that a bunch of people in the Middle East wrote some fun and fantastical stories, then it kinda all just got out of hand 😅

Miracles only occur to show us the full force of Almighty God's refined electromagnetic laws to encourage us to follow His righteous electromagnetic laws...and here is the crux of it all...by following Righteousness we are using the same electromagnetic laws that speak directly to our genetic health in a refined way rather than the 'reaching out for vital needs' of the evolutionary way...and Almighty God is in charge of both.

I would love to see that old fool Dawkins debate Dr Bernardo Kastrup, so he could wipe the floor with him.

Quantum physics... our consciousness participates...we have to learn to intervene together in unity. We are power generators and can be for good or bad.

The Trinity is an immortality myth. It does away with corporeality. There is no sexual union. Therefore there is no biological generation. Therefore there is no degeneration. Therefore, both generations are conflated. Father and son. And it is a ghost story. Ghosts are common vehicles for immortality tales. And ghosts also serves as an intermediary between life and death. . . This myth accords with religions which are immortality ideologies. The Trinity myth also serve as a mechanism to have God contact (!) with people. Similar in a way to Moses climbing up Mt. Sinai. Siegfried the Norse god was the son of Odin by a human female. . . .

Much respect to both gentlemen but, I’m taking Richards side on this one. You can’t say that laws of the universe explain things like viruses but then also believe in miracles. When you believe in miracles, you are saying that God can turn off these laws at any time he pleases. This makes the laws completely unnecessary, especially considering that God is also supposed to be all-knowing. Not to mention that the miracles he supposedly did, did not help humanity with anything. Turning water into wine, walking on water, raising from the dead, these things help us with nothing. So, what was his point in doing these things? Trying to impress us? Or, perhaps the point was to prove that he is God? Well, in that case he should’ve actually proven it. I certainly respect Collins work in science but, his God model has not yet been accepted by science, not even as a hypothesis. Therefore, it is merely a philosophical view, and one that does not make sense to me.

Richard Dawkins is a very poor philosopher

Looks like you got a few book there ,my friend. To bad they were all written to put you to sleep , bet you haven't made through one of them. Real books contain truths, not materialistic scientific nonsense.

Richard Dawkins questions miracles? He believes in evolution, which is based on nothing but miracles.

Is it really consistency that Richard is looking for? Consistency is “If A and not B then C and not D.” God is the source of all things. Everything comes from Him. It doesn’t come from the universe or any other physical thing. The universe consistently does nothing of its own. God can’t make mistakes. We can because we are a physical fabrication. The laws of the universe hold true that matter and energy cannot make or direct themselves. God said if you sin you die. If you don’t sin you live. So everything that happens is a part of the judgment as a result of our own sins on us. God can offer relief if we understand that God is the only source of relief. Only your Maker can perfectly cover for you Himself and remake you again from the inside out by the power of His true word as no one else can. Jesus was healing every disease and what was our response? We killed Him proving what was in our hearts. We don’t deserve anything. Everything that we have is by the grace of God and we will all finish dying in the end because it what is due to us. It’s really not so complicated. God is still proving what is in our hearts. This universe is a physical fabrication that is neither good nor bad. It’s what we choose to do that is good or bad whether we tell the truth or lie against the truth. Our sins are ultimately on and against our Maker so God literally showed our sins to be on and against our Maker when we killed His only Son our only hope. In killing God’s Son a perfect sacrifice was made in order to send everyone His Holy Spirit to convince each one of us of our sin, convince us of righteousness and to convince us of the coming judgment. The Holy Spirit is now our only link to God. Salvation is through sanctification by the Spirit and believing what is true.

By natural disaster and poverty and diseases God test people

Earthquake have nothing to do with God . What book are these guys reading ,god becoming human ,this whole debate nonsense, these guys are way in over there heads ,who would agree to a debate ,when they had no idea about the topics of the debate , I will tell you who ,an individual whos ego is way to big ,and they think they are smarter than they are , they said absolutely nothing ,other then argue like 12 year old boy ,over there own inconsistent view about the world . This dosnt benefit anyone, only truth ,facts , knowledge matters .

Miracles are all around us.

One epistemological error (epistemological error because religion and Francis Collins' faith does not adhere to logic) I believe Francis Collins is making is in his rejection of the scientific view the replacement for Collins' is his own culture's explanation of such phenomenon. It shows what I call the bias of locality since Collins decides on an explanation that is pervasive within his own culture. If he had chosen a different religion, it would at least illustrate that he was searching for the truth (as much as one that rejects science can). But by accepting his own culture by default, Collins' illustrates nothing more than the influence culture can have on shaping one's opinions. This is anathema to science and is the reason in science that we don't have, for example, Jewish physics and Arab physics - just physics. The principles apply cross culturally and allow for results to be duplicated across the globe regardless of one's personal beliefs.

I really like the idea of a benevolent god who places humans and other species on a planet with tectonic plates. What a god indeedl

Is the big bang considered a miracle? Just asking

Man, Christians are obsessed with Dawkins aren’t they? The amount of clips I’ve seen posted from this convo.

It's sad when a scientist, who should have been trained in critical thinking and doing whatever it takes to avoid fooling yourself, gets seduced by comforting fairy tales that tell him that he will survive the death of his brain. I wish him well on his spiritual journey. Perhaps he will one day see the light and rediscover the magic of reality.

There is just one theme running throughout the Holy Bible...Almighty God is a God over all electromagnetic laws. Secreted within His 'word' is an electromagnetic science and those who participate in His 'word' are participating in His science. Our greatest problem today is that an electromagnetic storm is brewing in the Earth's surrounding electromagnetic field. It will cause many global tribulations but we know that it will pass. We will need those electromagnetic laws of righteousness to get through it all.

If there’s an entity overseeing this world, it sure isn’t the ridiculous god-of-the-bible. SO much wrong with that story. It’s stunning that someone who calls himself a scientist, supposedly using the scientific method,also calls himself a believer of miracles, saying there is plentiful,credible evidence of same. I’m embarrassed for him, just by listening.

Trying to rationalize with Francis Collins is an 'exercise in futility.' Won't wast two seconds of my time.

Dawkins has it both ways. He can design a set and hire stage hands to show you the "evolution of the eye lens", but it was totally not designed or orchestrated in nature. What a joke. "You must see that you are applying your own view, and that anything you see that cannot be explained naturally must be an intellectual error"-that you for calling him out Francis.

Lol, so Frank personally knows these "reliable witnesses" then ??..must older than he looks...

Trumpists swear Trump is god, whose to argue! If miracles do exist!

Richard……Why bother!

Dawkins' tolerance is amusing. It actually exposes that guy"s insane delusions better than confrontation. We are all subject to sensory and cognitive delusions. Only some of us are willing to admit it.

These men have no understanding of what god means or who a god or gods ,may be .who the hell do you think you are ,spending your life at a desk ,then you think you have the authority to speak of any gods , you better reassess. You priorities quick old man , by the way god is not responsible for humanity,we are you are ,so take responsibility and educate yourself properly, or you'll be lost into old age ,just like these guys.