Understand the Next Phase of Web Development - Steve Sanderson

Understand the Next Phase of Web Development - Steve Sanderson - NDC London 2024

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2 ай бұрын

This talk was recorded at NDC London in London, England. #ndclondon #ndcconferences #developer #softwaredeveloper
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#web #software #react #blazor #technology #webassembly
It’s 2024, and the web continues to dominate the software landscape. Innovation proceeds in all directions, with new frameworks, build systems, and architectural patterns emerging at pace. But where are we all heading? Is there a pattern? What’s the next big phase?
In this demo-centric talk we’ll look at the common trends across web frameworks: disruptive new features that are showing up across technologies and changing how web apps are built. We’ll dig into live code examples in Next.js (React), SvelteKit, Blazor, Astro, and more. We’ll see how these and others are setting a similar path for the next phase of web technology - and how you could implement the same features yourself without any framework.
Finally, we’ll catch up on the state of WebAssembly and try out WASI preview 2 - the upcoming reinvention of WASI. Will it achieve the dream of seamless interop across all languages, operating systems, and CPU architectures? Will it become the standard for server-side cloud programming? Let’s build something with it!

Пікірлер: 139

@broncace Ай бұрын

That’s what a polished and well rehearsed presentation looks like, kids. Bravo!

@unhandledexception1948 Ай бұрын

after every Sanderson presentation, I realize I have just learned something important about the web :-)

@TeamDman Ай бұрын

Incredible talk, the snippets prepared beforehand makes it flow very smoothly. The WASI part is what I'm hyped for. A polyglot jupyter notebook comes to mind

@WillMitchell3 Күн бұрын

Smooth as glass. Love the tour thru the various frameworks without any marketing-speak. Disarming and informative.

@darkocernik2233 Ай бұрын

He is simly the best

@pr0master Ай бұрын

Excellent presentation 👏

Ай бұрын

Bravo! Great presentation! 🙌

@TechTalksWeekly Ай бұрын

Awesome talk overall and a fantastic short walkthrough of the web development history at the beginning. Steve's presentation was so good taht it's been featured in the latest issue of Tech Talks Weekly newsletter! 🎉 Congrats!

@JT-mr3db Ай бұрын

This was awesome!

@basheershahrour593 Ай бұрын

This was awesome 👏

@EldonElledge Ай бұрын

Well done. Excited about the future.

@Lazzerman42 Ай бұрын

Sadly Steve never talks about Blazors short comings - like awful handling(?) of sleeping tabs on phones or non working re-connect JS on all web browsers. Yes, there are workarounds - but for Blazor to succeed, these functions must work out of the box.

@MC_DarkMaster Ай бұрын

Well in this talk he doesn't talk about any shortcomings from the different languages at all. Do you have an issue-number from github for us that we can upvote?

@jameshancock Ай бұрын

Can’t wait to see RPC from flutter/js/blazor webassembly/uno defined with the .wit file as if it is running locally.

@spicythunder4020 Ай бұрын

Such a good speech 🎉

@SRG-Learn-Code Ай бұрын

Wasi looks great. Wasm haven't catch yet, maybe in the server it gets greater attention.

@jirinovotny9704 Ай бұрын

It is interesting to see bridging various technologies like that. Fantastic Steve Sanderson, as always. I love his presentations and the level of detail and complexity he usually goes into. However, the presented concept of combining technologies is making things on the backend much more complicated than most teams will want to accept unless they really have to integrate some legacy code/functionalities/externalities. The more tech interfaces you have to deal with, the more points of failure for your system and issues that will be hard to overcome. It's really difficult for me to come up with a valid real-world use case. Any specific ideas?

@modernkennnern Ай бұрын

I'll never not listen to Steve(n?) Sanderson

@RiczWest Ай бұрын

I think I’ll always be listening to to him 🤣 First time I’ve seen him and very impressed

@nhwilly1011 Ай бұрын

He’s the best

@ramashankar2750 Ай бұрын

we are attempting a generic Multi column drop down boxes as paged grids with selection of columns returning a Parameter stack using WASI component , use it across the applications in our product as in winforms.

@BryonLape Ай бұрын

Some of us were rendering client side using Dynamic HTML and JavaScript in the early 2000's.

@gabrielilie4460 Ай бұрын

Sadly HTMX was not mentioned.

@MC_DarkMaster Ай бұрын

Why should he? It's neither a trend nor the future

@7th_CAV_Trooper Ай бұрын

Neither was Brazil. 😢

@gabrielilie4460 Ай бұрын

@@MC_DarkMaster Nor was the AI trend a year ago, so it's impossible to predict a trend. Also your point of view is subjective, for you it might not be the future, but for some it is.

@MC_DarkMaster Ай бұрын

@@gabrielilie4460 Your point is subjective too :) I think it is not possible to list all tiny projects that may become the next big thing. And actually HTMX is not something new. Knockout.js did almost the same thing 2011, Intercooler the predecessor of HTMX was also founded in 2013. So the idea behind that is alreay more than 10 years old. And it did not succeed.

@wdeath Ай бұрын

First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win.

@kousheralam8657 Ай бұрын

open my mind, leanred a lot.

@neunistivlija Ай бұрын

I am back to command line and consider it future of UI

@kaihusravnajmiddinov5413 Ай бұрын

Some demonstration which are worth watching.

@Peter1215 Ай бұрын

This looks great, feels a bit like microfrontends but for backends... so microbackends?

@sabuein 18 күн бұрын

Thank you.

@francois-joubert Ай бұрын

This looks awesome! Would I be able to compile a C# function to a wasm component and use it in a browser, or would this only work in wasi?

@CarlintVeld Ай бұрын

Microsoft has docs how to build wasm from c# and call it from javascript in the browser 😅

@jbaguetta 12 күн бұрын

Wow, that's what I call an engaging presentation! Surveillance driven management 🤣

@radulaski Ай бұрын

Should have added a SPOILER WARNING for Twin Peaks...

@erril8285 2 күн бұрын

He's a genius

@eduardofernandez2697 Ай бұрын

Great presentation and all but... tabs for indentation, that's where I draw the line

@kemboidickson284 20 күн бұрын

Damn it, That was smooth! Everything was super clear.

@MrJonathandsouza Ай бұрын

I just want to mention "Marko" because I don't think it gets enough love.

@unknown.artist.track3 17 күн бұрын

awesome!

@giorgos-4515 Ай бұрын

He didnt just say Surveillance Driven Development with a straight face, i would have broken character.

@ddd12343 Ай бұрын

What is the current state of WASI now? When will it be out of "preview" state and be production ready?

@takismitsimponas8601 Ай бұрын

more than a couple of years for sure, they are working on preview 3 now which is about async

@YTmanisvs Ай бұрын

Dont I see something similar to CORBA / IDL / Multilanguage theme that I did in one of my previous lives? A great speaker though....

@user-in3xs9gn2o 17 күн бұрын

Thanks for this... I was beginning to get frustrated by blazor 😢

@giorgos-4515 Ай бұрын

As anyone who has written react, the clock code feels illegal to write.

@dcuccia Ай бұрын

I sure hope this is the future. Hopefully we'll see first class support for accelerators like GPU, NPU, etc early on, which will help cement this as a great portable tech for server and edge and IoT alike.

@vincentvanderkussen2825 24 күн бұрын

No HTMX mentioned..

@sergeliatko 26 күн бұрын

This is where you start understanding how farseeing the theory base under the HTMX is...

@SandraWantsCoke Ай бұрын

damn, all of that to render a couple of div tags sheeeeeit

@neilhatly Ай бұрын

*cough* Flash, JAVA applets, ActiveX, ?

@genyklemberg Ай бұрын

Looks like a legacy php everything before Astro😅 and then web elements came. What is the reason of using client:load, why it can't just load?

@gnorts_mr_alien Ай бұрын

because some people want to generate html in the server and send that for some reason. they believe your server(s) generating html for thousands of users would be faster than doing the rendering on user's device, because it "might" be underpowered. not to mention the complexity behind it all because delineating the "static" parts and "interactive" parts and maintaining it (in your head, documentation etc.) is hard. unless you are a content heavy website, client side rendering is fine, fast, simple, and cheap! in the case of astro, if you have a content heavy website with very little interactivity here and there (like a newspaper that has dynamic visualisations) it is just fine, astro manages the delineation between what is static and what is dynamic very well (islands architecture) so that is the most promising one. but for most other stuff, rendering html in the server is just a losing proposition.

@user-eq7oo2cr1v Ай бұрын

the most conservative approach to the innovation.. All-in-one printers will also serve internet in the future ?

@PerryCodes Ай бұрын

Apparently "there are still a few people coming in" is actually part of this talk. Same exact thing said in NDC Porto, without the odd "I'll just talk over them" comment.

@ivan.jeremic Ай бұрын

Cloud: Please run everything on the server again we are making less money😅😂 There are solutions to big client apps like just load what you use.

@congjuny Ай бұрын

Sounds that it will be messier at least for the next few years.

@harry__init__ Ай бұрын

OK but what *font* is that in his editor? so clean...

@RichardLucas Ай бұрын

"...and obviously it keeps us in a job as we keep moving from one framework to the next..." Accidentally said the quiet part out loud. The reason it is out of reach for the average person to build a dynamic website, now, is because how else do you ensure job security? Lol, people can't help it. Even the new, open source versions of Redis demonstrate this. Redict works perfectly fine. If Redis worked for you, then so will Redict. But the other fork, Valkey, seeks to _innovate_ for the sake of innovation, itself. In open source space. Like they don't quite understand why they are doing what they are doing but they have some kind of narrative about why they should. Narratives are funny.

@MrBrady95 25 күн бұрын

What about Wordpress?

@simonegiuliani4913 Ай бұрын

HTMX Bro!

@proteus1 14 күн бұрын

Is this related to google web dev ?

@Ic3q4 Ай бұрын

@vepeducate 26 күн бұрын

won't client size lazy loading serve the purpose?

@ADOConnection Ай бұрын

UpdatePanel v.2024

@hankai2000 Ай бұрын

at 39:10 my mind = 🤯

@SandraWantsCoke Ай бұрын

but then you look at the network tab, how much javascript is being shipped to the browser your head will go nuclear.

@fsvooo 8 күн бұрын

This will backfire. Why would companies want to render in their starved k8s clusters instead of for free on today’s powerhouses of devices. The problem is instead client technologies.

@obinnaokafor6252 Ай бұрын

Surveillance Driven Development 😂😂😂

@null7936 Ай бұрын

soy development

@brawlgammer4424 Ай бұрын

I was starting to think I was the only one who heard the part about surveillance 😂 Presenter sounds like a fucking Dictator to work with

@misalambasta Ай бұрын

No privacy development 😂

@phpmaven Ай бұрын

Maybe I'm missing something, but how is any of this revolutionary or the "next phase"? It's just all Ajax requests that are updating part of the DOM, we've been doing that for ages. These are just different ways of doing that without having to write the Java script to do it but ultimately that's what's happening. So this whole thing is kind of a snoozefest.

@kaihusravnajmiddinov5413 Ай бұрын

WASM is not ajax. Similarities?? Yes all computer software work in scope of possibilities brought by hardware and networks, so nothing revolutionary should even be expected. And if you paid attention he marked evolutions (no even revolutionary) to be introduced on their time, and he had that time axis there. You're missing the message. It's not about revolution in web. It's about evolution over the time.

@djtomoy Ай бұрын

We need to move past the web and start coding dreams for angels that can save hubmanend cind

@saurabhumadikar2345 Ай бұрын

Atsro has a cool feature which lets the developers write client side logic using multiple Frontend Frameworks. It would be really awesome if Blazor adds support for this feature in future.

@domorewithsage Ай бұрын

It wasn't that people outgrew ember angular knockout its just been shiny object syndrome for the last 15 years. O lets go MVC no lets go MVVC no lets go server side, no lets go client side blah blah blah. When I was doing win32/64 dev you picked *one* tool, got one major upgrade a year but stuck with the same tooling *for years* and delivered solutions....fast!

@DarKOscillator08 Ай бұрын

yeah exactly...every day a new fancy library / language / framework or feature everybody has to use...everything running in a docker container and managed by dozens of pipelines :/

@wsvap Ай бұрын

Literally no one "outgrew" angular! Still one of the most used framework. Please dont comment about something you have no idea! 😂🤣🤡🤡

@LewisCowles Ай бұрын

Impressive; but really needs code online. How could I show the before and after? git checkout -b render-counter-frontend-islands && git commit -m "feat: render counter in Astro on client" It's actually the WASI crap I wanted to look at, but a point-in-time demo without access to the sources creates a gap folks have to cross

@user-wn7wg8ug5i Ай бұрын

Наверное появится некий реестр wasm компонентов на подобие docker hub, которые написаны на разных языках. Это выглядит многообещающим, особенно, если заметно снизится объем зависимостей в браузер

@meyou118 Ай бұрын

lol - just use HTMX?

@afterglow5285 Ай бұрын

I miss delphi

@madskaddie Ай бұрын

thank you, but no thank you. Wasm has its role and is not for the most of the web platform. gmail like webapps, games and like, and of course to mine crypto, lol. btw, wasm will make debug very hard. most of the web is information and linked data. we will see the return of server side rendering (has already started). bloated client side apps broke the web (linking is harder, broke accessibility (who cares about semantics when you see the display as a blank canvas to paint on), back button ,...

@oriches Ай бұрын

really?

@chunder64 Ай бұрын

This isn't new (streaming server side client) . I was doing this at 2 different companies 5 years ago. It does have more features than I made.

@JeffreyRennie Ай бұрын

Before I saw this video, I thought Blazor was a confusing mess. I still do.

@PortalUser2 Ай бұрын

If you go from anything to anything (different)....it will look like a confusing mess at the start because it is not what you are use to seeing. Blazor is elegantly designed.

@Sammi84 Ай бұрын

@@PortalUser2elegant is the last word I'd used for blazor. Blazor can't even decide what it is. It is at least two separate frameworks.

@PerryCodes Ай бұрын

You're not wrong @JeffreyRennie

@MaxWeninger Күн бұрын

The "future" is not to use JS at all

@spirobel2.0 Ай бұрын

i like php

@MC_DarkMaster Ай бұрын

Sadly without any comparable async/await. Like calling multiple different other apis concurrently without waiting for one after another

@spirobel2.0 Ай бұрын

@@MC_DarkMaster I agree. But there is something great about templating html the way php does it. But it is true that it has its short comings. I wrote my own framework for bun that captures this early php vibe but still gives access to the js ecosystem and the js language features like promises and async await. That way we get the best of both worlds.

@hstrinzel Ай бұрын

NO. This is going in the direction of MAXIMAL COMPLEXITY. Huge developer teams will be needed, ONLY large companies will need to apply. Smaller developers who want to be productive CANNOT benefit from such complexity. Voted down.

@milgront 26 күн бұрын

We just need to get back to rails, django or laravel.

@pau1phi11ips 24 күн бұрын

@@milgrontfull circle confirmed 😂

@TokyoXtreme Ай бұрын

Imagine living life without knowing about Twin Peaks 🦉

@maskahleo Ай бұрын

no mention Remix

@ukyoize Ай бұрын

javascript was and is a mistake. HTML is a document,not an "app"

@Sammi84 Ай бұрын

Ok boomer. Meanwhile js goes brrrrrr.

@giorgos-4515 Ай бұрын

Valid, but then how do we do logic and DBs, what would you suggest?

@PerryCodes Ай бұрын

@@giorgos-4515 Sorry... are you saying we need JavaScript for logic and DBs? Two things that existed long before JS, both off and on the web?

@PerryCodes Ай бұрын

@@Sammi84 Man-buns make me go LOL.

@giorgos-4515 Ай бұрын

@PerryCodes Html itself is not enough that's for sure, but for interactivity and doing the actual processing(fetching from an API) you need JS.

@jeffsteyn7174 Ай бұрын

😂 the more things change the more they change the same... We went from running code on the server to running on the client and I see we back running code on the server.

@daveanderson8348 Ай бұрын

oh no...another new thing...stop with all these short-lived frameworks that are all the same anyway. The big tech companies and especially Microsoft must sweep through all those hobbyists who come up with a new framework or tool every year that add nothing at all.

@AwesomeCplusplus Ай бұрын

IDL (of CORBA) keeps getting re-invented in myriad interesting ways from gRPC to WIT 😀

@joeedh Ай бұрын

Hoping this talk will not be total grifting nonsense. Most talks with this title are.

@joeedh Ай бұрын

Is this seriously just the SSR grift from a few years ago? 27 minutes in

@joeedh Ай бұрын

He spent the last half of his talk discussing WASI in apparent total ignorance of its many failed antecedents

@joeedh Ай бұрын

It's kind of amazing that someone who apparently works for MS isn't aware that 'ecosystem bridging' is very much a failed idea in the bytecode VM world. Of all the useful things WASI does that is not one of them.

@user-gi4qu9do2v Ай бұрын

looks like bicycle reinvention for most cases. Arguments like users have "slow computers" or "bad network" are pretty strange nowdays - computers are extermly fast, network is OK and getting better. May be its sutable first page openning (ecommerce), but for most cases you still need dynamic ui for good UX. May be its better to write modular UIs with dynamicly loading bundles and create better tools for bundle shrinking?

@semikolondev Ай бұрын

A decent internet connection is out of reach 90% of people in low- and middle-income countries and around 2.7 billion people - roughly one-third of the global population - remain unconnected to the Internet.

@user-gi4qu9do2v Ай бұрын

@@semikolondev for 99.99% companies its not target audience - its hard to make money in such countries. In developing countries internet is on par or better than EU\US. Fast internet will be there when they become viable market

@Albertkallal Ай бұрын

The real question is the beginning of the end for writing JavaScript. The current state of affairs is a absolute mess. Why should I have to try and write + manage some class in JS, and then on a wing and prayer figure out to have the save class server side? (heck, the data types from JavaScript to server side code does not even match 1 to 1). With these new technologies, then I can write pure server side code, and if that code needs to run client side, then not only can it, but it by-passes JavaScript 100% and is native browser code (wasm). This finally marks the end of having to grab 30 different JavaScript libraries and THEN trying to cobble all those client side frameworks with sever side code. Gee, need a toast message system - yup, go find another JavaScript library and inject even MORE messy JavaScript libraries into what already has become a mess of epic proportions of tying to inject 25 different JavaScript libraries into that browser. The issue not really only about reducing bandwidth, but is about a clean coding environment, where I don't have to adopt anything more then a nice clean server side coding language (say like C#). The potential to by-pass all that JavaScript mess and attempting to load + send all that JavaScript library code to the browser is the greatest promise of these new frameworks. Why send a bunch of messy HTML markup + JavaScript to render a drop down box? Why not send some tight and clean native browser code to the client side that then displays the drop down box? We not there yet, but these new emerging technologies will once and for all get rid of the horrible dance between client side code (JavaScript) and server side code once and for all.

@spirobel2.0 Ай бұрын

@@Albertkallal it is the beginning of the end of everything but javascript. We will keep all the other languages in a little wasm box and orchestrate everything with javascript.

@Albertkallal Ай бұрын

@@spirobel2.0 Those little bit of JavaScript parts will be added automatic, and you not be reading or writing JavaScript code when the dust finally settles here. The simple matter is this attempt to put a round peg in a square hole (JavaScript playing nice with server side code) been a bad dream and experience for all of us. It what we have, and it is the current state of affairs as to what we have to deal with now. But, in short time, we all going to dump JavaScript, and write nice clean pure server side code, and it will do all the dirty work of sending bits and parts to the client side - including that of having such code run in the browser. As this video shows, what is around the corner is frameworks that figure out all the bits and parts for you, and being able to code out say a nice toast message in clean simple pure server side code? I can't wait...... Right now, all this wiring of JavaScript and trying to call web end points is a mess, and a costly development approach. Trying to have 2 vast different languages (Sever side and client side) play nice with each other? It's fast going away. The end result will be a VERY clean and simple approach to writing code, and building web applications. I can't wait! So, will some JavaScript exist? Yes, it will, but it will be very limited, and YOU the developer will not see, nor write that JavaScript anymore....

@afterglow5285 15 күн бұрын

PHP on steroids.

@SRG-Learn-Code Ай бұрын

**Shows rust: don't worry if you don't know rust or if you hate it** > Follows it rawdogin some C#... LOL