Using Thieves’ Cant in D&D

Рет қаралды 8,170

Күн бұрын

Join me as we dive into the secrets of Thieves' Cant and see just how fun it can make your next D&D campaign! We'll explore its historical roots and practical uses to enhance your gameplay with mystery and subterfuge.
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Пікірлер: 88

@fakelandtommy4471 Ай бұрын

I've always interpreted thieves cant as a combination of cockney rhyming slang and hobo/carny-code but the inclusion of irezumi is a good add on.

@fakelandtommy4471 Ай бұрын

I also include hand gestures. Like a half sign language to adjust the meaning of what is spoken plus silent commands.

@GeekPhilosophy Ай бұрын

Sounds like you’re already working Thieves’ Cant into your games in a fun way! Thanks for commenting!

@SusCalvin Ай бұрын

Different groups had their own subculture slang. But that's like asking "Why is Common one language?"

@moshecallen Ай бұрын

In one campaign I played, I was one of two rogues in the party. We decided our thieves' cant for verbal messages was disguised as conversations about cheeses. Ostensibly our characters loved cheeses of all sorts and talked about them obsessively in times that just didn't seem appropriate for it to other characters.

@GeekPhilosophy Ай бұрын

This is great! I wouldn’t be able to stop making puns. “That’s a gouda plan”

@darloth Ай бұрын

Wrong game, but “No one has as many friends as the man with many cheeses!” came immediately to mind.

@DragonsinGenesisPodcast Ай бұрын

Some years back I spent several months hitchhiking and hopping trains around the country. Hung out with some "steel tramps", (homeless people who hop trains). They taught me some of the old hobo code. Most isn't used anymore, but the signs for camp, a safe spot to hop trains, areas guarded by bulls (rail security), leave immediately and unsafe areas, gathering spot for tramps, beware of dogs, and safe route are still used.

@GeekPhilosophy Ай бұрын

Wow! That must have been an experience! Thanks for sharing with us!

@SalsaDoom1840 Ай бұрын

I love the idea of a hobo code for adventurers!

@GeekPhilosophy Ай бұрын

Thanks! I’ve already started putting together a few symbols for my campaign setting.

@peoswriter1 Ай бұрын

Nice video for churning up the imagination! I’ve given a little thought to how thieves cant would work, so feel free to steal this if you like. Thieves cant is a mundane conversation with two things added - a signal that the cant is about to begin and a recurring gesture or inflection to signal which words are actually important. A person might blink and say “pardon, I have something in my eye” then dab at the edge of their eye with three fingers (no more, no less, so the gesture is casual but also distinctive if you’re looking for it) and then begins talking, dabbing or rubbing their eye again whenever an important words comes up. The listener then strings the important words together. So a person could say something like this: “It has not (rubs eye) been a great day for sticking to the schedule, but at least the rest of my plans are safe (dabs eye) and should go through without incident, even if the weather reports tell (rub) a different story. Well, since everybody (final, resolute rub) is ready to get started, let’s get on with it.” The listener notes the rubs and the important words: NOT SAFE TELL EVERYBODY. Now you would need a wide selection of similar tells to make regular use of them (and not suggest pink eye or something), but coughs, foot taps, nose scratches and more could be used to the same effect.

@GeekPhilosophy Ай бұрын

Great tip! This is a great example of using a system like this in a practical way. Thanks for sharing!

@malysyforethought1195 Ай бұрын

I added flower and fan languages for my ex (illegal pit fighter) gladiator as her patron would send her a bunch of flowers with a short note telling her if she was supposed to try and drag things out, win, draw, or throw the fight. Using battle fans and fan language meant she could comment to her bosses during a fight. This was in addition to the standard cant the syndicate used for 'everyday ' purposes.

@GeekPhilosophy Ай бұрын

Love that! Really creative!

@anonymouse2675 Ай бұрын

Some things you guys might find useful. Russian prison tattoos. I recommend a documentary called "The Mark of Cain" here on KZfaq, Though there are many other good documentaries that you should watch for inspiration. Prison tattoos in general actually, but western ones usually convey somewhat less information than the Russian tattoos do. Street Gang hand signs. This is a full on sign language that varies both by the individual gang, but also by region of the country. I vaguely remember watching a documentary about MS13 gang signs, that was both the hand signs themselves as one form of sign language , but also a separate sign language using the arm and wrist position and gestures. In other words they could carry on two completely different silent conversations at one time with just their hands and arms, plus one more verbal conversation. The only example I remember of the arm movements was tapping the belly with the wrist means shot in the guts, again regardless of what signs the hands are making. Military tactical hand signals. Again, a form of sign language. Could be very useful in a campaign to convey information without making noise, or if done somewhat more subtly during a conversation then you could carry on two conversations at once. Native American Sign language was commonly used while speaking to convey additional information, To talk silently without speaking out loud, or to communicate between peoples who spoke completely different languages. I recommend both The hidden history of “Hand Talk” and "Indian Sign Language" Documentaries as starting places. For the written signs and symbols, you might want to check out Ogham Script. Its an old Druid language in Ireland. Looks NOTHING like modern languages. You could also replace most Hobo Code symbols with Runes.

@GeekPhilosophy Ай бұрын

These are great additions - thanks for sharing!

@AedanTheGrey Ай бұрын

Ogham is not authentic to pre-Christian periods in Ireland, it's post conversion.

@henryeccleston7381 Ай бұрын

Thieves cant being universal in D&D makes sense, as well, because some of these thieves would be centuries or millennia old, and likely travelling across realms and planes, creating standardised and universal codes and signs so they would have ways to subtly recognise their peers and former pupils and their pupils' former/current pupils.

@GeekPhilosophy Ай бұрын

Great point! The long-lived ancestries make a huge difference when it comes to spreading and sharing knowledge.

@TalismancerM Ай бұрын

Just a reminder that Dragon Magazine #66 has a full Thieves Cant dictionary...'tis huge.

@GeekPhilosophy Ай бұрын

Thanks!

@JamesJoy-yc8vs 24 күн бұрын

I remember that article! In retrospect their Thieves Cant is kinda reminiscent of Esperanto

@emelyhelfrich6533 Ай бұрын

saving this, that's a really good overview of things you can do with thieves' cant!! love the historical context too, that's really cool

@GeekPhilosophy Ай бұрын

Thank you so much! I’m glad you found it helpful!

@WilliamSlayer Ай бұрын

Agreed! I constantly forget to give my rogues moments with material like this. Thanks for the reminder! 👍

@GeekPhilosophy Ай бұрын

Thank you!

@kelpiekit4002 Ай бұрын

Thieves Cant can be a fun way to link in other groups too. Thieves Cant overlapped with Polari quite a bit and that was used by performers, circus workers, criminals, navy sailors, wrestlers, puppeteers, and gay men. And it included language influences from Italian, Romani, and Yiddish. So, a lot of different people in your setting may understand thieves cant, in part or total, without being connected to thieves at all. And who understands may give lore depth to your world and how different groups interconnect. Plus, it can lead to fun misunderstandings with NPCs where someone may think you're part of a Navy ship crew or they think you can help as an Orcish translator in an immediate situation because a little Orcish is part of your world's Cant and you can't exactly say "No. Funny mistake. I'm actually just a criminal".

@GeekPhilosophy Ай бұрын

Thanks for sharing!

@RichWoods23 Ай бұрын

The name 'hobo code' is of American origin but that particular system of symbols originated in Europe, spreading to North America primarily from Britain and Germany. In England the marks were used by wandering beggars, tinkers and gypsies to indicate safe camps, friendly houses, brutal magistrates, etc. In fact I wouldn't be surprised if a similar usage goes all the way back to civilisations with early writing systems, like the Mesopotamians and Egyptians, when people who weren't literate would still find it easy to memorise and share a handful of simple marks. We can be pretty sure the need has existed ever since migratory hunter-gatherers started finding themselves restricted by settled pastoralists.

@SusCalvin Ай бұрын

In Warhammer Dark Heresy, there are several secret languages. Imperial Guard jargon is relatively openly known while space marines do not teach others their tactical signs. Some imperial groups have a private sign language.

@Pupcan Ай бұрын

I appreciated your mentioning of a learning curve as characters progress through a campaign. It's satisfying when players recognize or sprinkle in bits of the local jargon into their interactions with NPCs. It deepens engagement with the setting. It builds bonds between PCs and NPCs when those NPCs might otherwise be forgettable drones. (Come to think of it, that was one aspect about D&D 2e Planescape which was a pleasant surprise. Players and characters would gradually build a vocabulary, yet it didn't involve gold pieces, XP, choosing the right skill proficiency, or how many quests were completed. Even aside from the role-playing value, there was a nuts-and-bolts pragmatic value for power-gamers in recognizing whether an unfamiliar barkeep was being insulting or being friendly. Is that street urchin trying to con us or be nice to us? The learning curve for the lingo wasn't level-dependent nor dependent on picking the rogue class. Level 2 PCs who had interacted with shopkeepers and quest-givers had a leg up over Level 12 PCs who had recently arrived in the setting.)

@GeekPhilosophy Ай бұрын

Thank you! I played 2e, but I didn’t have much experience with Planescape. Sounds like an interesting part of that setting. Cheers!

@Marcus-ki1en Ай бұрын

In the Belgeriad series by David Eddings, one nation uses "trade language" subtle hand signs to communicate with another from that nation (they were the spies of the world). I have always thought of Thieves Cant as a combination of verbal and hand signs to know if the person they were talking with were on the same side or not. I use a tribe/group of Travelers that can secretly communicate with each other by sign.

@GeekPhilosophy Ай бұрын

Great take on this! I’ll have to check out that series. In my home campaign setting, I have a Guild Coalition that use a similar system. The Coalition Agents (sort of a fantasy version of the Pinkertons) use a system of sign language when working in the field. Thanks for sharing!

@Mouseflux Ай бұрын

Thieves Cant taking 4x as long to convey a message is an interesting part of it. A group of people speaking it might be talking for conversations sake, talking slowly and enjoying each other's company. To people fluent in Thieves Cant, other languages might feel harsh because of the "rush" the speakers are always in. Meetings with crime syndicates might only be in Common to convey a set plan and delegate responsibility, but fall to Thieves Cant for territory updates or discussions about potential future plans

@GeekPhilosophy Ай бұрын

Great point about the time it takes! Lots of great ways to work this into the game. Thanks for sharing this!

@Oznerock Ай бұрын

Thieves can't isn't really a language. It's an encryption system. The idea is that you're hiding a secret message in a conversation that is in common.

@M_M_ODonnell Ай бұрын

There's a short story (by Samuel R Delany) called "Time Considered as a Helix of Semi-Precious Stones," in which members of a sort of broad underworld/demi-monde identify each other by references to "the Word," which changes every 30 days (and it's unclear how the new Word is decided, or by who) but is always the name of a semi-precious stone (hence the title of the story). That or something like it would be very much in line with the in-group signaling function of Thieves' Cant and fit the flavor of a lot of D&D settings (finally, a use for the piles of semi-precious stones adventurers come across other than selling or the occasional spell component!)..

@GeekPhilosophy Ай бұрын

Great idea! I am a big fan of adapting things like this to help enhance the game. It seems like you’ve got a real gem of an idea there….I know, I know. Couldn’t help it. Thanks for sharing!

@JamesJoy-yc8vs 24 күн бұрын

A campaign I ran years ago was heavily focused on rogues and "undesirables", with the PCs working in various capabilities for the local thieves guild, the Mobile Fend (I forget how it got that name, but I've used it a lot since then). In addition to riffing on Thieves Cant (making stuff up & writing it down, we ended up with a pretty big emergent lexicon), we decided the Guild also planted secondary messages with the downtrodden, invisible masses. Like the charcoal burners and lime kilns and tanneries - kept away from town due to nasty smells & such - they'd receive instructions on what to burn and when, creating long-distance smoke signals easily read by allied smugglers and brigands. Also prompting the beggars & street urchins to use specific scripted words and phrases; e.g. "the plague down south", "last winter's hard freeze", etc. to convey general updates to the underworld cognoscenti without risk of discovery

@GeekPhilosophy 24 күн бұрын

Very cool! Sounds like you and the players had an interesting take on this. Thanks for sharing!

@JamesJoy-yc8vs 23 күн бұрын

@@GeekPhilosophy it was very much a collaborative experience, once the idea was introduced we all enthusiastically ran with it

@jesterknight6073 Ай бұрын

This is the first video I have watched from your channel and I have to say well done. I don't usually subscribe to someone right off the bat but I did with this channel.

@GeekPhilosophy Ай бұрын

Thanks so much! I’m glad you enjoyed the video. Cheers!

@JanHoos Ай бұрын

Nice video! It gave me some extra’s like the symbols. I already gave my rogue a “dictionary” of words and placement of items to signify the work someone’s willing to take. that way my rogue knows if someone is an assassin or a burglar. and they can talk about jobs without anyone else (even the other players) catching on ^_^ “yes, mr Johnson is throwing this ball! We’re looking for someone to help us with the coats. Are you interested?” :)

@GeekPhilosophy Ай бұрын

Thanks! I’m glad you found it helpful. Love the dictionary idea!

@bdhatc Ай бұрын

In the King Killer Chronicle, pawnshops had markings that told con artists would participate in weeping widow cons. Likewise you could use symbols on homes or places of business such as The Key: symbolizes that the pawnshop was willing to participate in con games. Con artists would recognize this as an invitation to engage in their schemes. The key represented access, secrets, and hidden opportunities-essential elements for successful cons. The Coin: The coin signified wealth, trade, and transactions. For con artists, it meant that the pawnshop was open to shady deals, haggling, and negotiations. The coin was a universal language of exchange, and its presence indicated that the pawnshop might be willing to bend the rules. The Candle: The candle represented illumination and enlightenment. To con artists, it hinted at hidden knowledge or insider information. A pawnshop displaying the candle symbol might be privy to valuable secrets or unconventional deals. It was an invitation for con artists to explore further.

@GeekPhilosophy Ай бұрын

This is great! The Kingkiller Chronicles is one of my favorite series. I love the key, coin, and candle application. Taborlin the Great would be proud!

@NamiStuff Ай бұрын

The Adem's sign language could also be adapted as a form of Thieves' Cant too!

@asherhawkins362 Ай бұрын

Carny speak is still used today in prifessional wrestling which started as a carnival attraction. A good example would be "mark": someone who was gullable or an easy target for carnival tricks (like thinking the fake wrestling was real). Today it kinda means a super fan or someone you can make money off of so it means the same somewhat. There are various other cases though like "kayfabe"

@GeekPhilosophy Ай бұрын

Yup! I recently released a video about pro wrestling with some examples. Thanks for commenting!

@trevorhague6603 Ай бұрын

Would you treat druidic somewhat the same as thieves cant?

@GeekPhilosophy Ай бұрын

I do something similar. In my games, but I lean into the nature aspect of it. Druids may leave messages in the moss on a tree, the way a ring of flowers grow, etc. I may dive deeper into Druidic in another video. Thanks for commenting!

@jacksonmann3764 Ай бұрын

Great video and awesome Depth and well research. Looking forward to seeing this channel grow

@GeekPhilosophy Ай бұрын

Thanks! I appreciate the support!

@RichWoods23 Ай бұрын

Somewhere I have an old book which gives examples of the cant used by the underclass in Georgian and Victorian London. It'll be in the room I laughingly call my library, which presently consists more of stacks of cardboard boxes than of ordered bookshelves. I bought it decades ago when I used to play AD&D; it caught my eye because of Thieves' Cant. The last time I looked at it was shortly after I first read the DnD5e PHB. The book wasn't so clear on how to hide a meaning within a common language, but it was possible to construct phrases purely from the cant words themselves. I'm desperately trying to remember examples, but the only one that comes to me now is the word 'darkman'. It roughly means night, so something like 'darkman's hour' means sunset while 'darkman's rest' means sunrise; the idea is that there are just enough uncertainties in the usage of familiar words that even if an eavesdropper can figure out the meaning of a specific cant word they can't be confident that they've understood the cant phrase. This in turn makes it easier for an insider to learn the cant than it would learning an entirely new language (eg French for an English speaker), because not all the words will be new to them but gaining fluency can be treated more as learning a set of idioms (which you would have to do to gain fluency in a new language anyway: ne cherche pas midi à quatorze heure). The cant vocabulary only concerns itself with matters important to the underclass, so don't expect to be using it to make flowery speeches to a visiting ambassador or employing it as a medium for deep discussions between philosophers. I'll see if I can find the book, but don't hold your breath.

@GeekPhilosophy Ай бұрын

Very cool! I know there’s some third party publishers out there which some similar content, so I’ll see what I can find. Thanks for sharing, and let me know if end up finding it. Cheers!

@Spark_Chaser Ай бұрын

Another group that does the tattoo code are the vor v zakone, or Russian Mafia. The Vory have various tattoos that are almost a resume to someone in the know who sees them.

@SusCalvin Ай бұрын

Chimneysweeps had a secret language here, knoparmoj. It was not a criminal group but they could use it to discuss clients while standing in their homes. A lot of terms are work-related like slang for chimney types and different tools. A lot are everyday things on the street.

@GeekPhilosophy Ай бұрын

Very cool, thanks for sharing!

@SusCalvin Ай бұрын

@@GeekPhilosophy Chimneysweeps are not going to plan out a murder. But we think they used this to talk about what to eat, who owed who money, drunk fistfights and making fun of homeowners.

@SyrEmilon Ай бұрын

Anyone from Argentina? Lunfardo originated as a cant by the Italian immigrants, similarly to hope thieves cants work. Add the fact that the at the turn of the 20th century, the union of bakers and pastry chefs in Argentina - which strongly adhered to Anarchism - gave the pastries names that insulted the government, the military, the police and the Catholic Church, as a way of making political propaganda with their work. And well, you get a strong inspiration for a theives’ cant with legal fronts. “The bill is coming, a sacrament and four vigliants” can literally be, in Argentina, to mean that the “pastries are coming, one Braided Sugar Pastry and four Puff Pastry Twists” or it can mean the next mark.

@GeekPhilosophy Ай бұрын

This is super interesting! Thanks for sharing this. I may go down a rabbit hole of research now…cheers!

@chrisragner3882 Ай бұрын

The “Players Club” is an organization that uses card games and card game jargon for their form of communication in my world.

@andrewbriggs2692 Ай бұрын

i like this alot. i use similar concept in religions and other organizations. certain hot words to indicate knowledge levels and understanding in the high concepts as well as coded meanings. truth, knowledge, believe, life, flames, steel, and ash. some are ways to test others

@GeekPhilosophy Ай бұрын

Thank you! Great idea using similar concepts for organizations and societies.

@biffstrong1079 Ай бұрын

Clever ideas. Thanks.

@GeekPhilosophy Ай бұрын

Thank you! I appreciate the support!

@zchrmills Ай бұрын

Is that Blue Turtle I hear?!

@alanmark12345 Ай бұрын

I generally run a goofy cartoonish kind of adventure, my take on theives cant is the most blatant direct language that those hearing play off as a joke or totally unrealistic. "So did you hear about the secret underground theives guild in the sewers? I hear you have to say open seasame and all the treasures are in the vault at this precise location." Everyone else laughs and plays it off as nonsense.

@GeekPhilosophy Ай бұрын

Love it! It’s great how cant can be adapted for all types of play styles. Thanks for sharing!

@danielcrafter9349 Ай бұрын

I don't understand why it would take "four times longer" Cant is just slang; it's mix-words used to hide what is conveyed by what is said Have you ever heard a deep slang? It's just normal speech!

@GeekPhilosophy Ай бұрын

I think you could home brew it to remove the 4x longer component. I guess it really depends on the complexity of the message and how you’d like to convey it at the table. In some circumstances, I can see it taking less time. Like just mentioning a specific type of con by name. That takes less time than explaining the entire process. Thanks for sharing!

@eyflfla Ай бұрын

I think it takes 4 times longer when your trying to obscure it from the unknowing. like, if you're trying to discuss a smuggling operation in front of law enforcement. You might have a secret code, sure, but unless you're subtle, people are going to know you're talking about _something_. Also, probably to give the DM a little bit of a leash on players running wild.

@paige_404 Ай бұрын

It takes 4 times longer because there is more that needs to be interpreted. To communicate without making it clear what you're talking about takes more time because you need to talk *around* that topic. There's an excellent short film in polari on youtube that demonstrates how cants like this were used kzfaq.info/get/bejne/j56peKtpucC5o58.html

@paulfelix5849 Ай бұрын

Cockney Rhyming Slang.

@ChBrahm Ай бұрын

do you ever roleplay the thives cant with your players in the table? or do you just hand wave it like: "he says a bunch of nonsense none of you understand, except for you who gets that he is shit talking the mayor"

@GeekPhilosophy Ай бұрын

Great question! I’ve done both - usually depending on the players and how comfortable they are, and how excited they are about actively participating in cant. I prefer to roleplay it out though.

@JamesJoy-yc8vs Ай бұрын

I realized back in AD&D1 days that I'm always weaving secret societies and cabals into my games (even one-shots! I can't stop myself!), so I've come up with myriad encryption styles. My current favorite is knotworks, specific patterns of twists and braids; in straps, belts, rope & twine, hair/beards, garments & accessories. Stylized knots drawn or carved on surfaces, pebbles in the mud, tree & shrubbery branches. Primarily seen in the distaff professions; chairwomen, washerwomen, midwives, heard in gardens, bakeries, sewing & laundry circles, from chandleries to bawdy-houses. A masculine dialect could also be found quayside, woven in fishing nets and ships' rigging.

@GeekPhilosophy Ай бұрын

Very cool! It reminds me of the Yllish story knots from the Kingkiller Chronicle. Thanks for sharing 😊

@JamesJoy-yc8vs Ай бұрын

@@GeekPhilosophy I'm not familiar with that work, but it sounds like something I'd like As I recall, the inspiration for my knotworks idea came after I'd read about quipu, an elaborate language of knotted strings used in the Pre-Colombiqn Andes by the Inka empire. Apparently it was so robust and granular they could use it to record everything from meticulous tax records to traditional love songs. Once the idea was planted I just kept finding new permutations and applications. I advance PC fluency in cyphers more-or-less along with Proficiency Bonus. So around Level 5 I'll explain that say, the cleric's folk-tradition textile twists share syntax with goblin darkvision graffiti. Then around 9th that both are derived from the ancient Zodiacal texts of the Trilithon Mews druids. And if we get to 13th it's revealed that the Ashlamp Lodge crime syndicate has been manipulating them all along, having infiltrated and compromised each faction years or decades ago! Then I sit back and bask in their dismay with my benevolent smile . . .

@SusCalvin Ай бұрын

We looked up the historical chimneysweep slang, printed a dictionary of a few pages and used it. Every PC in the group was a thief and chimneysweep.

@grammarmaid Ай бұрын

This is a splendid exploration of *why* to use Thieves' Cant, but doesn't touch upon *how* to go about it. I was shocked when I got to the end of the video and there wasn't even a hint of how to use this advice in practice. As a rogue main and occasional DM I found this truly disappointing. On the plus side, potential material for another video? Concrete examples are key with this kind of content. Cheers all the same.

@GeekPhilosophy Ай бұрын

Sounds like a follow-up video would be a good idea. Any thoughts on what type of practical examples you would like?

@grammarmaid Ай бұрын

@@GeekPhilosophy Thanks for the response. What I meant was showing how you would actually go about conveying thieves' cant in a gameplay situation. Do you copy codes sourced online? Do you like to actually speak in coded expressions to players as NPCs? Do you have your own made up terminology, or do you hand waive roleplay as "they tell you X and Y in thieves' cant." Everyone seems to have a different idea of what cant looks and sounds like in practice.

@GeekPhilosophy Ай бұрын

Great questions! I've had a couple of similar questions about roleplaying vs. explaining, prepping symbols ahead of time vs. making them up in game, etc. Speaking in cant can be a lot of fun but it comes down to the comfort level of the DM and players. I've got a few ideas, and I definitely think this warrants a follow-up video.Thanks again for the feedback!