Between Untargetability and Invincibility, which mechanic do you think is worse? strawpoll.com/jVyG2pJO1Z7

Yes my favorite champion: Duskblade of Draktharr

Fizz and yuumi made me hate the game, so now I main fizz to make others hate the game

One key difference between invincibility and untargetability: interactivity. Untargetability just says “nope” to everything. At least with invincibility, there’s a way to stop them by locking them down and waiting it out. With untargetability, they have the capability to either run straight at you or away at their discretion. That’s why I say invincibility isn’t the worst… and at the very least is MUCH less oppressive than untargetability.

I really hate how Taric's power budget is crippled entirely by an infinite value ult that depends on your team not messing up during the delay.

Untargetability is 10x more frustrating than invincibility. in League, there are two ways to escape, especially from modern champs: CC or mobility (dashes). I mean, sure, against invincibles, you might deal 0 damage, and for some (old) champions, that's their only thing they do....But when you can't be targeted, you completely negate the abilities used on you. So the only counter to get away is *if* you have mobility. And that's a substantially restricted pool of champions that can meaningfully respond to your ability. A Trynd can still be Ashe ulted. A fizz can't. (He takes that arrow to the knee.)

I think Kindred's ult is one of the fairer ability of this type because it: a) works only in a specific location meaning you can displace Kindred or their teammates out of the circle b) works on all champs in the circle including enemies meaning if Kindred uses it at the wrong time they can make the situation actively worse than if they just didn't use the ability at all Its game winning potential is balanced out by the fact that the ability can be either completely useless or can actively troll your team

I don't have a problem with invulnerability, honestly. It would be fair to argue that it should be kept to short durations to ensure it doesn't eat too much power budget, but I take no issue with its existence inherently. Untargetability is frustrating, I think I was fucking scarred by Duskblade.

fizz being able to dodge major stuns and be able to one shot is outrageous. at least the invulnerable is an ultimate effect (ignoring pantheon cause I gave up regarding him for balance) being able to just go untargetable while trading in lane is a very strong ability and due to it usually being a disengage too not doeing anything else isn’t that bad

I think Pantheons and Kindred’s invincibility is ok. With Pantheon you just need to attack him from a different direction and with Kindred if you get in the circle your ok too. There is outplay and chance for skill expression for enemies. Especially with Gwen’s mist, although, that one could be changed as well, but I believe it’s far better than Vlad and Fizz’s untargetable abilities.

I think this argument hinges on the idea that you only have agency in the game once a fight begins.

I was waiting for Vars to mention Gwen when he kept on saying that the biggest weakness of untargetability is that they can't deal damage but never got it. I know it's limited by range but that champion ran counter to his central argument against untargetable champions and he didn't address it even though she was used in some visuals. That being said, a lot of untargetability skills also deal damage so maybe he kind of assumed it was already within that realm.

6:25 In the WHAT time, sir? I know what he WANTED to say but yall hear it too right

I think the good thing that keeps invincibility in check is that most of them are ultimate with very long cooldowns and there are time windows when you know the ability isn't going to be used, unlike untargetability which is, for the most part, normal abilities and can be used whenever.

The thrill of killing a champion after their invincibility skill end is kind of fun.

Untargetability is also featured on more basic spells which has significantly lowered cooldowns than ultimates (which from memory are the only spells which offer invulnerability). Zhonyas is an exception, has both combined, with the added caveat of you/others cannot do anything (even move). Not being able to cast is a downside of untargetability, but thats part of the spells skill expression in my opinion. Its arguable that much like yasuos windwall for mages, untargetability can make matchups with limited "oppurtunities" or counterplay virtually impossible. Malphite engaging on a vlad to setup a gank for example, would be near impossible. Im not saying it is unbalanced, but in certain matchups it alone can make them feel as such. If champions snowball, it exaggerates the limited outplay opportunities (samira/yi with untargetable duskblade haha). As you mentioned, invulnerability allows interaction, which in my opinion is healthier overall. Most untargetable champions can temporarily feel invulnerable if used correctly (skill expression), offering it an almost identical functionality at a fraction of the CD cost. Higher ranking players will manage/remove the drawbacks and "exploit" the positives in conjunction with the rest of their kit.

in game where everything one shots you, i think both are actually required to make the game still viable, the only mistake i would say makes me question it's existence is on Fizz, like, can someone tell me again why an assassin has invincibility? hello? riot??? as if getting bursted down with 2 skills wasn't bad enough, the assassins gets a free ticket to safety on the same tool that he uses to assassinate? damn, love it when i can't LITERALLY counter the assassin that was supposed to be as squishy as an adc or mage because he has invincibility on a DASH.

I will say this Taric's ult requires prety good timing and awareness by teammates. Kayle's ult is very strong but Kayle is literally not a champion for 80% of the game Tryndamere however is strong during pretty much all stages of the game except argueably teamfights. His ult is just pure statcheck bullshit.

I'd rather my opponent be invincible than silence me, nothing on planet earth is less fun than dying because the way you "outplayed" me was turning all my buttons off

Tryndamere also having a bunch of movement speed and attack speed while he's using his Ult is so dumb. Playing the CC applying Tank often means going into melee - Leona, Nautilus, etc. - trying to stop him murdering your team means he just gets to auto-attack you. And once he's on top of you you have a really hard time actually running away from him as he's fast AND he can spin his way after you/through walls.

Whenever a title or headline asks a yes or no question, the answer is always no.

Really enjoyed the video. But you never mentioned Fiora w (parry). Neither for untargetability nor for invincibility. Where does it fall and why was it not included?

As a Tryndamere onetrick I agree 100% I wish nothing more than for any of my boys power budget be put into anything but his ult, like I don't get why it seems no one wants him to be reworked like I get shyvana and maybe noc but in my opinion he needs it more then anyone because it just feels unhealthy.

for me if its on a champion without dashes i am generally fine with it kayle never felt oppressive just because of her R but champs like fizz (really low cd) yuumi (has long has she has a champ on her team thats alive) and the biggest problem... Tryndamere R has he can just run u down with a slow if u run and massive healing free crit long dash great wave clear strong early and no "weak" time kayle is balanced to a weak early (only being "strong" at level 1) and easy to bully before 6 due to melee without dash and with a weak wave clear until level 11 yuumi is balanced on being just a bad champ with below avrage power level (due to the fact that if she is ok she is broken without counterplay) fizz is just not that strong and has a meh level 4-5 with a meh late game taric is more dependent on team comp where if its insane engage vs burst or front to back he is insane but vs poke or zone or skirmish teams he does near nothing with it kindred is both ways and is the same where a good ult or good team to use with that ult its great but if its not the case its bad Invincibility is fine on champions if its made in a way like kayle or taric or kindred but really bad in cases like yuumi and Tryndamere its really oppressive when they are strong in meta (like currently yuumi sucks and Tryndamere is really stupidly strong due to crit buff and items with crit being buffed) and ways like fizz is more gray area (and when a high movement speed build on a champion like kayle its makes her gray has well while if kayle is strong early she is very oppressive) Invincibility is a good thing for a game has it gives counterplay thats not just cc if kayle is really behind (say for 20min+ she is hard ganked by both mid and jng even support and counterpicket and is dying under turret she still is a champ that can have that feels good play with R even if she hits like pool noodles with say 2/10/3 or even 0/15++ at 20min and a champion like pantheon can still go for a 2v1 and get out alive with maybe a kill or 2 if the enemy fks up and lets fiora have counterplay agains the tanks she is meant to win agains with there mass CC abilitys by sending it back to them)

where is the strawpool in description

Invincibility while annoying I'm perfectly fine with, untargetability 100% needs real counterplay, and mobility needs more counterplay What really makes untargetability feel awful is the champs that innately have it are almost always paired with inherent mobility, meaning not only do you have to wait it out...but 9/10 their gonna clear enough distance to get away once its over anyways...idk i feel having as much anti-tank/heal as we do, we should really see more anti-mobility and maybe even something anti untargetability

I feel that if LoL’s invuln abilities had more caveats like in Dota2 it may feel less of a problem. The big two I can think of are Omniknight and Oracle in D2. The prior only grants invuln to physical damage while the latter gives invuln for the current moment but you will take the full damage after the effect wears off. If there were some nuances in LoLs invuln skills it may make things a bit better.

Kayle used to be locked out of attacking/casting during her ult, except for like the last .5seconds of her rank 3 ult i think?

Miss Informing on tryndamere as usual, tryndamere isn't invulnerable when he uses undying rage, he's immortal, he takes the damage he just doesn't die, therefore you CAN lifesteal and out heal him, add in the fact that his only source of damage is a single damaging ability and Autoattacks. You're right, invulnerability sucks, but comparing it to immortality, and the fact that tryndamere, If you're good at the game can be easily cc'd into irrelevancy makes the comparison unfair.

Great editting dude!

I've been watching your videos for some time now and they're awesome. I just want to take the opportunity to suggest a little change on your voice track. It's a bit too boomy/bassy, which could be for a variety of reasons, and it makes it hard for me to listen to your videos on my main system, which has a subwoofer. I know that a strong low end is common practice in this type of recordings, but if you're adding it through EQ, I strongly suggest dialing it down a bit. My guess for the problematic range is 60-120hz. Another cause could be "proximity effect", so I would try taking a bit of distance from the mic when recording and see what happens. Thanks and keep up the great work!

I’m curious to see if Riot changes it so that causing cc effects on invincible champions would end the invincibility. I’m mainly thinking like Tryn R, Kayle R and Taric R. Kindred is limited by having it be in the fixed location, still very busted but not as much as the others.

Cannot imagine ever getting bored in a Vars video with how sonorous his voice is and how sophisticated and concisely he speaks :)

Playing a variety of games really puts League's balancing problems into perspective. I still love the game, but every day I get a little more frustrated towards champs like Tryndamere and Vladimir. I think examples of good invulnerabilities are Pantheon W because of the factors already mentioned and Lissandra R because she has to choose between locking down an enemy champion or healing and protecting herself. Fizz E is somewhere in the middle because it's very strong early game and a nightmare if he gets ahead, but he is more tolerable to deal with because of it's very short duration. I don't think either status effect is worse for the game than the other, it totally depends on the ability's context.

12:28 Mars on kinda Dota 2 already have something similar where his shield is a toggle ability where you take 60% less dmg from the front and 35% less dmg from the side but at the cost of slowing him down

how abt yaswoh windwall or samira bladewhirl?

Vars ur next vid should be on Resurrection/Stasis abilities (and items)

thought i heard something very wrong at 6:24 lol

your whole argument about about invincibility being a advantage state where your opponent can't come up on top of is strange considering a lot of abilities work like that. Everything point and click like veigar ult, or annie q, or auto attacks? Advantage for them that you (unless you have invincibility, unmarketability, or some whey to delete projectiles) has nothing you can do against it. You could also put all hard cc into that category as long as it hits. But like the examples above invincibility is far from being a win game button, and although being a advantage state where the enemy can't come up ahead, there is the macro gameplay of planning, vision, positioning, etc that plays in to how effective invincibility is, just as all other abilities work.

Vars making it through a video without saying the word “pressure” challenge! (IMPOSSIBLE)

I think this habilities help people think ways to deal with them. You don't have to think of your combo, you also have to know how to deal with those unfair habilities. Fir example, you can out trade a Darius with a Malphite if you just save the Q for after he uses E, you just get away, the W isn't enough to compensate for the mv speed you gain and he looses. Once you understand how an enemy champion works, you can deal with them. Yiu just have to worry how the enemy addapts to you knowing how to deal with them afterwards, but they normaly just keep trying and failing.

10:00 That's also why I believe something like Zhonyas should put everything you are doing in stasis, pausing everything, so if you're a Morde for an example with his passive active it should stop spinning and not tick down or do damage basically freezing it in time, if you're have minions they should also get put into stasis, also your cd should not tick down either, I honestly wish that they would literally make Zhonyas act like time is completely stopped for you, and everything that's happening to you will be frozen in time, meaning if you were gonna die to ignite, you'll still die to ignite unless you get bailed out by your team.

I would love to see a video where you discuss arena. How it introduces the mechanics vs stats conundrum and why this causes certain champions to be far stronger in (an average) arena game.

0:40 I’d like to think Aatrox is so broken he wins that fight

Does Tahmathy's Devour count as an ally-targeted untargetability spell?

I largely agree, though I think you missed or unvalued the nuances of how the invulnerability is implemented case by case. I would say that invulnerability with no counterplay or trade off should be removed, rather than the status entirely. You touch on this yourself, with pantheon/kindred vs kayle/tryndamere. Kayle and tryndamere can hit a button and be invincible for several seconds with no downside or counterplay. In other words; for a few seconds they enter a state where they are at a massive advantage with no outplay potential for the enemy, beyond the regular tactics they already had at their disposal. Kindred and pantheon, however, have trade-offs. Pantheon can’t cast other abilities or autoattack, and his movement speed is reduced, AND he’s only invincible from one direction. This means that he can actually be at a disadvantage if an enemy gets behind him, despite being ‘invincible’. Kindred applies invincibility in an area, so the same advantage state is applied to enemies / allies / neutrals. An advantage applied equally to all sides is no longer an advantage. When used incorrectly it can actually hurt kindred. If you’re facing a sett or a vayne, you have to expect them to immediately powerslam ypu back out of your own zone of safety. There’s outplay potential here that isn’t necessarily out of the enemy’s control. tldr; invulnerability is fine, but it should be conditional and used in ways so as not to provide the user a hard ‘advantage’ state completely beyond the opponent’s ability to control.

Is that Soraka at 2:02? The skin makes her look so different

So one of my main is vlad, i think his W in early is ok, yeah you become untargetable, but lose a lot hp that u need some Q to get that health back and usually is a good moment to be aggresive on vlad, personally the one i hete the most is fizz E

Couldn’t agree more… also I feel like they could do some really menacing and cool stuff with a potential new Kayle or trynda ult

Kindred does not have invincibility per se. The ultimate just prevents you from falling below a certain HP threshhold, at which point it acts as like invincibility. Anything above that is unaffected, so it's more of an unkillable effect, just like tryndamere

Would anyone say xin zhaos ult is somewhat fair since he is only invulnerable to champions that are outside of his circle? I usually end up using it more defensively than offensively

The main reason why I think untargetability is worse than invincibility, is invincibility is reserved for ultimates only (not counting Pantheon's E, as it's not actual invincibility), while untargetability is always a basic ability, meaning they have a 15-20 second cooldown at most, while invincibility ultimates, even in late-game with a bunch of Ability Haste and at max level, easily have at least a 50 second cooldown, meaning that in every fight, invincibility can only be used once as a free get-out-of-jail card, untargetability may be used more times in that same fight.

Tryndamere gains death immunity not invincibility. Though seemingly functionally the same, what makes it different is that he still takes damage but it stops him from going below a health threshold. What it does is extends his ability to stay in a fight, not preventing anything other than his own death. It’s a game of chicken both before he casts it and during the cast. Cast it early and the value of the 5 seconds is reduced, too late and he dies before he can cast it. Then, if you cant kill your opponent quick enough, how much duration is left before he leaves or should he commit and risk dying shortly after. Honestly, he would be better off without it, but do you guys really want his power budget to allow him to gain a different form of sustain and rather than a squishy melee ADC, he ends up as another scrappy skirmisher or a crit based fighter like the wind brothers? I like the fact that the primary skill expression on tryndamere is the ult timing. Having these “unfair” mechanics gives the game a bit more nuance, otherwise every champion will become very samey just using the same recycled mechanics even more so than it already is.

6:40 - Kench's ult is an untargetability skill that can be applied to someone else

Invincibility abilities have historically been really good. They are telegraphed, usually lower the DPS of the attacker and have myriad methods of counterplay. (It helps it is on ults all/the vast majority of the time) Untargetability is the opposite, these abilities can be used on a whim, deal a ton of damage and have nonexistent counterplay besides the user being bad. Too many characters in this game are reliant on Point Click damage/CC to have untargetability exist all the time. It basically turns the game into a matchup simulator, where you hope you don't get countered by a character who nullifies you. This is why League is such a miserable game to play. Because a death or two early on, or a bad matchup means the game is effectively over. And then you have to sit through another 15 minutes of game where everyone says it's your fault for losing.

immunity to destructon in yugioh isnt the best "invincibility thing" you can get

It's as you said at the end of the video, the problem isn't with invincibity as a concept, but almost every champ with access to it can still move completely freely (except for Pantheon, who is by far the least problematic of them imo). Compared to untargetability, where using those abilities severely limits your options, invincibility should also put way more restrictions on the champions using them, so it doesn't just become a game of stalling the enemy for as long as possible while he still has his full kit available. So rather than being a fundamentally broken mechanic, Riot just hasn't given it enough counterplay through the inherent design of the ability, which would make this mechanic a lot more palatable.

I really wonder how would be Kayle without the invincibility, they would really need to rework the entire champion, they would either need to gigabuff her early game and make her even crazy strong late game in order to not get one shoted in any point of the game like add more base health and health scaling, add more armor and magic resist and etc or they would need to rework the champion as a whole

I think invincibility should be an hp threshold. Like you can get damage. But you can't get under 20%. This way an early invincibility usage would still incentify damaging the character. And a late one would incentify jumping on him as soon as he come out of it. Healing them would also be somewhat of a good idea if people flee him. Wich could make people stop fleeing them to keep him low.

10:00 mario is a weird pick for that cause he gets insane offense while invincible. tho i assume its supposed to reference smash

I'm not convinced that invincibility needs removed, but I wouldn't be against towers hitting through it.

The brief period where Duskblade made you Untargetable was hell on earth

Edit by Breexy never lets me down, fucking love it every single time

6:30 WeLl AcTUalLy you forgot about bard. great vid tho

I think Dota 2 is a really bad example for why invulnerability is bad since there are tons of ways to deal with it.

"Extremely short duration untargetability" I can literally hear the echoing laughter of Gwen players around the world.

6:22 I know you meant "nick off time" buuuuuuut 😭😭😭

I personally think that it is ok to have that, but they should have a condition to use it. Like on tryndamere, that he can only use it if on full rage bar and it consumes the ragebar, so its just used to flee or something like that. On kayle I think its ok because she cannot attack half of the time of the invincibility

I think that's a bad take. Invincibility is hardly an issue in league - it has been kept in check very well so far. Firstly, it doesn't remove CC. That alone makes it WAY weaker than untargetability, because CC is the #1 tool to stop carries. Tryndamere has a very powerful kit AND he is a brutal stat checker than can 1v1 anything in the game.... and he still doesn't destroy pro-play/soloQ because as long as you can hit him with any CC or just retreat a bit, he loses all of his pressure. Secondly, most invincibility skills have a timing component that the enemy can use to predict it. If a trynda player ults at full HP, they will waste their ult. If they hold too long, they might die and not ult. There is a fair amount of skill for both sides in this regard. Similarly, a Taric player needs to know when to ult to get the most benefit, and the enemy team can play accordingly, either through disengage or bursting down targets. Pantheon's invincibility is only partial, so I wouldn't count as such, it's closer to Braum's E. The only unconditional invincibility skill in the game is Kayle's ult - which used to be so underwhelming Riot had to buff it in her rework. Maybe one day I think Riot might make a champion that will put this all in check, but so far the fact that it is considered a more expensive part of a champion's kit has kept things A-OK. Untargetability, because it's less expensive, ends up being more easily mishandled.

The only invulnerability I have a problem with is Tryndamere's because there's no way to outplay it. You can't even cc lock him and burst him because for some godforsaken reason he is allowed to use it while cced. All the others you have some kind of counterplay. Taris R is so delayed, most teams can easily disengage or kill him before it starts. Kayle R became more of a problem sincee the buff that made her able to act for most of its duration, but it's still single-target and you can cc lock her and kill her before she's able to use it since she's sqishy. Kindred R also makes the enemy team invulnerable, so it can also backfire massively. You can also use displacements to remove someone from the invincible zone.

vlad pool is fine out of all of them tbh because it has such a long cd and he can't do anything during it. fizz E doing the most damage in his kit + movement + wall hops + aoe + no cooldown even early game is just ridiculous

what about fiona parry?

Only problem is that I doubt you or anyone else will convince Riot to remove Kayle's Invincibility. It's too iconic to remove. You could make it so it's only targetable on herself and she can't do anything, but that feels underwhelming. One possible (if long-winded) suggestion would be this: On activation, Kayle surrounds herself with 5 holy swords and begins as invincible. For 2.5 seconds, if she doesn't use an ability (or auto-attack, but I'm iffy on that), she is completely invulnerable to any damage. However, she can also press R up to 5 times for each sword to attack with them (similar to Irelia's old ult in function). Each sword used reduces the damage mitigation (to a minimum of, say, 60% at 0) but increases the duration by .5-1 second per sword used. Swords that are unused at the end of the ult, or if any other ability is used, will be thrown out in an AoE attack akin to how her current ult ends, with damage based on how many swords are left. If the ult is used on someone else, it's basically the same as her current ult but with only 80% mitigation at most instead of complete invincibility. Also, the damage at the end of the ult vs. using all the swords up would likely be comparable so that you aren't overly incentivized to use one or the other. Tryn I wouldn't say much given he should be re-worked, but possibly it's only full invuln if he's at max rage BEFORE activating his ult (for a shorter duration), or there's some level of self-slow based on damage taken during the ult. The latter doesn't sound that great either, but I don't have a lot of options. As for Taric...probly just make it a huge defense aura buff, I guess?

simply making it so that invulnerability doesnt work on towers would do wonders. That was they can't just tower dive you with impunity. And only late game when tanks can take alot of tower shots will it matter if you let those champs get ahead.

7:00 lol don't talk about other games that you don't play or understand, invincibility or invulnerability or both easily countered in dota. You can even kill them while invincible or invulnerable a lot of the time.

I don't think all invulns are a problem nor even really most. As long as there is a realistic avenue to do something to them I think they are great. The only two who really are just problems are Kayle and Tryndamere. They both are just fully invincible and no real condition applied. Each has a ridiculous advantage to there own invuln as well, kayle can give hers to another player if they are better for the current teamfight, or lets say in case the difference of winning or losing a teamfight is not letting a kat reset her abilities. On the other hand tryndamere cannot be stopped from ulting and that is ridiculous, at least with the ult being only tied to a cooldown, itd be different if he had to be at max rage to use it, or is forced to use it like a gnar transformation when at full rage, but nah just gets to use it whenever convenient. Kindred, Taric and Pantheon all have at least relatively fair invulns and something to exploit within them. Kindred gives it to anyone in her area, so you can even use this to your advantage and knock her away with something like a lee sin or poppy ult and take her ult from her effectively, Taric has a windup to his invuln, meaning you have a window to burst high priority targets before the invuln triggers, and Pantheon as you said only has invulnerability from a certain direction and his doesnt shield him from tower shots. Ultimately its not that the invulns need to be shorter even, just that they need a opening like these 3 champs give to the opponent a chance to make a play.

kindred an tryndamere dont have invincibility but immortality

Came for the Xin Zhao mention, stayed for the analysis. Thank you for saying the thing

I really don't think invincibility is that bad. Riot knows it's extremely powerful, which is why they balance around it. Kayle's R is pretty short duration, Trynd can very easily just get chain CC'ed, and many champs can even kite him. Kindred R applies to everyone to make it more balanced. If you aren't able to play around these abilities, I think it's more of a skill issue honestly. Sure, it gives a huge advantage for a short while, but the same can be said with CC. A max distance Ashe arrow gives you 3 seconds of outputting damage, repositioning, escaping, chasing etc. There are so many mechanics in league that reduces interactibility (Zhonyas, movement speed, dashes etc.). If you start removing these, you get a boring and flat game experience. Agree on untargetability though. All the champs with it feel terrible to play against, same with Duskblade before it got removed.

13:02 wrong, stasis is an infinite value effect and the fact that you can’t do anything while being under the effect is false, you can use abilities and spells instantly after it ends and in the case of Zhonya’s you can cast it on demand, not to mention that currently is one of the most broken items by giving 120 ap for such a strong passive and you can heal while under the effect (looking at you swain, vladimir and triumph)

you mentioned Phanteon was the frist champ to have Invincibility on a basic ability but isnt fioras w also a state of Invincibility since she can be targeted

Being untargetable is worse because its a more commonly used mechanic and is functionally the same where the only exception is DoTs/effects on the target before they become untargetable. Also "invincible" champs are not invincible, they're damage immune. They can still be controlled and affected. Untargetable champs cannot be stunned, rooted, slowed, displaced because they're untargetable. The context in which untargetable is used is also really fucking awful in league, a lot of champs with untargetable have the trait tied in with mobility (fizz), heals (Viego) or damage (Gwen & Kayn). Its as if the idea that an ignite or Zed ult could *in theory* kill them while they're in their untargetable state means they don't need the caveates tied to say, kayle ult (long cooldown, limited effect, used to disable auto attacks, still vulnerable to CC and displacement)

6:25 in the what? 😂

The most frustrating thing about untargetability is losing tower aggro at least invincible targets continue to get shot and the dmg ramps up

To be honest, is not so much the untergetability itself, is the champions that have them. The reason why Viego is such a coin flip is because once he gets the passive resets, you cannot do ANYTHING. Fizz is so frustrating is that he can run at you and burst you OR run away WHILE dashing. The only way to attack Gwen is being inside her circle, which is exactly what she wants. It's the K'Sante dilema. By themselves, the abilities may not mean much, but together makes the champion very annoying.

At least you can stun a Pantheon or Tryndamere But what can you do to a Vladimir in his pool?

Saying that even short invincibility shouldn't exist is such an assassin player take. Imo Invulnerability should be short and nuanced as it's with fiora riposte and should allow champions to stop oneshot combos but should not last 4+ seconds so that an entire fight can be fought invulnerable

funnily enough there was a bug awhile back where karthus couldn't die and he only had a 80%winrate its the same reason cheating isn't a guaranteed win you can still get out macroed i don't care if your immortal if your whole team is dead and we split the map you cant stop 3 lane pushing and taking all those resources

As a Taric otp i have to say that Tarics ult shouldnt be even compared to other ones from this video. because the point of "youre invincible and can do anythink you want" applies in theory theres few thing balancing it out. you have to somehow stay alive as a whole team for the same duration as invicibility before it goes off, and you have to make sure enemies wont just back down the moment you use it. its really hard to actually use it, nad theres so many thing that can go wrong while others just press the button in the middle of a fight and laugh in your face.

The fact that cc or even silence doesnt affect Trynda R is concerning

Taric: World's longest windup Kindred: It goes both ways Tryndamere: Stat check: do you have the stat "Good CC Ability?" If not, you lose. Fizz: Zhonya's on a 6s cooldown Xin Zhao: Anti-ADC

I would argue that xin's invincibility has more in common with Gwen than with kayle or taric

11:25 Fiora's W: Now I take that personally

the champion that is the biggest offender of untargetability is fizz. The fact that you have a "nope" button that does a shit ton of dmg as well every 4ish seconds is complete and utter bullshit imo.

I feel like the champions with invincibility are much more obvious to outplay. Its harder to outplay gwen when she presses w and runs at your adc while throwing her ult Im okay with both tbh. It just changes how you play the game and interact with some champions Sure theyre frustrating, especially when fed but its honestly not hard to find counterplay in most siuations. We might need another durability patch tho.

When I think about the champions with invincibility, they are annoying because of the invincibility otherwise they don’t feel very strong but when I think about champion with untargetability, they are scary for the rest of their kit, not the brief moment they don’t exist. This is why to me the power budget argument is a good one, make the champions all round kit feel better instead of having one saving grace, I think kindreds is a great example on how to do it well, it affects the enemies as well, but they put so much of her power budget into her últ and passive that without both working correctly it’s just painful

Most people would probably say invulnerable is way more annoying but it is just because its more balanced than invincibility meaning it is more present too, there is a lot of counterplay to invulnerability but there is legit none other than litteral perma cc for invincibility

Why infinite scaling should not exist in LoL Why invisibility should not exist in LoL Why ability reset should not exist in Lol These above are more cancer than invincibility

I like Kindred's invulnerability more than anyone else's, and even if all other invuln were removed, I think stasis (zonya's, bard R) should stay along with Kindred. Kindred's ult is favored by Kindred's team because they get to decide when it happens, but EVERYTHING in K's ult is invincible, and EVERYTHING is healed at the end. I think that adds a lot more depth than, for instance, Kayle, who just says "nope" to her or one of her teammates dying. edit: I don't play ranked and only play this game casually, mostly norms with friends. My friends who do play ranked say that my skill is around low gold, so my opinion might not be all that good

Video about revive mechanics? :3