Of course I didn't see the whole thing unfold, but based on this video I don't think the pilot was in the wrong, at least in terms of the issue at hand. The pilot was simply telling tower he was unable to taxi to the gate at the time, which he was indeed unable to do as Jetblue 434 hadn't began it's taxi yet. I don't think he was wrong in not assuming ground meant "once the gate is clear". Ground should have said it, but he never clarified it. If ground just took the time to add that he could taxi to the gate when the gate was clear, this exchange would've been pretty normal. I will say the pilot was being unnecessarily snarky to ground at the end there though

I think one aspect not covered is Jet Blue ground operation. 2436 arrives in the gate area to find its gate occupied at 4:04 pm and finally the gate is clear at 4:28. That is 24 minutes. I don't know what was going on, but they should have probably changed the gate to take 2436 in earlier. I had this happen to me flying into Frankfurt twice and both times Lufthansa ground changed the gate/remote stand to park the plane quickly. It delays the passengers by a little bit because they need to reposition the ground crew, but not by 24 minutes and doesn't leave a plane stranded on the taxiways like in this scenario. By the way, I had a similar thing happening to me in SFO flying United, and they changed the gate within 2 minutes of us waiting for our gate to open. I'm saying that because I'm looking at the human factor. The ground controller was probably annoyed by 2436 taking up so much space and the pilots were probably annoyed by the long wait (was it their final leg and they were tired and rushed to get off the plane? They had another leg to fly and worried about the delays?). They both acted unprofessional but I see a big human factor at play here

I wonder if you could FOIA the recording of the call that came after this exchange. I know most government agencies are required to comply with these requests, and they would be giving out the recorded line for these types of calls.

@@LucaAlbertalli great comment, thanks. I don't know how Jetblue handling works on this matter. Maybe all other gates were also occupied. Remember this animation only shows related traffic.

I think maybe when the pilot said the gate was blocked, the controller heard “blocked” and repeated the clearance, and the pilot heard that as being told to move. But yeah, if the controller had just said “proceed to gate when that plane is clear” it likely would have avoided the misunderstanding.

Should have replied "yes that's fine" *cricket cricket*

SFO have the rudest controllers

especially since he was patiently waiting and complying with ATCs orders to do circles on the taxiways due to other traffic. Controller could have simply stated he was aware gate B8 was blocked and to taxi up to B9 and enter B8 when able. Pilot did nothing wrong.

"OK, want me to pull my exit slides? Thatll *definitely* tie us all up for the rest of the day." ;) Joking of course.,

@@dublinairportplanes The are well known for all sorts of issues

Napoleon syndrome

Seriously... typical ATC god factor... ugh!

Thats implied, If you got to spell it out for the pilots its time for them to go pilot-less. Overpaid bus drivers!

@@toddw6716you can’t imply anything when you give a clearance

@@oscarholmberg3157 well the controller implied the pilot had common sense. I guess they don’t!

And that is what is implied. Not saying that either behavior from ATC or pilots was professional, but if the pilot would gotten a taxi instruction to taxi A, B and C, would they replied, we can´t because someone else is taxing on B....

@@se-kmg355 Nothing should be "implied." Everything should be CLEARLY STATED. There is no "it was implied."

JetBlue should've gone to gate 8 and If it tangles with other plane's wing... The repair cost should be levied from the ATC guy

@@uniqueurl Right and screw up plans for the regular everyday people just trying to travel? Real good idea genius.

It’s SQL’s big brother.

I felt like it was always JFK/EWR being spicy but yeah there's definitely a trend here.

@@matrixab4356 And what race do you think ground is in this video?

Whole lot of smug

​@@aerofiles5044the homosexual kind

Indeed! And then they were told to proceed to a blocked gate after being told to block a pushback earlier.

Reason #1 why I don't fly jet blue. Their ops is atrocious.

@@wkelly3053 excuse us for voicing our opinions. Instead of being condescending, maybe you could educate we the unwashed.

If he says continue to the gate, pretty much clearance to do it at your discretion, time to do some captain stuff skipper 🤣

@@wkelly3053 "I'm going to accuse you of not knowing wtf you're talking about, without elaborating further."

Nailed it. Reminds me of the Lufthansa flight the controller kept in a hold. Irritability all around reduces safety. I also think after a string of incursions and recent accidents pilots are starting to become really wary of clearances into occupied space.

San Francisco 🏳️‍🌈💪

And at this rate, the bells will soon be tolling.

Is there a current fecal map for KSFO so pilots can dodge the piles during taxi?

pls shut up, cringe

I think it's meant as a joke (albeit cheeky), not a threat. They had been waiting for 30 minutes, the controller just wanted to get them moving sooner if anything. He was probably a bit confused as to why they suddenly wouldn't budge after he issued an obvious clearance to taxi to the gate as the company traffic in front had just gotten its taxi clearance. But Captain Happy over here had to act all tough and nitpicky.

⁠@@hotrodoftheskies Apparently the radio was pretty busy. I don’t blame the pilots for missing that implicit connection, they can’t read ATC’s mind. Pilot was clearly confused by this. ATC had a chance to clarify in response, but didn’t. Given context, I can’t understand the “joke” as anything but condescending. Obviously not a threat, just a mean response, when pilots had been waiting so long. Also, I’d much rather a pilot be completely sure they understand ATC before moving, than not. Consider recent tragedy in Japan, for example.

@@Toothily Of course, ATC could have been clearer, but so could have the JBU crew. Their initial message ("It's blocked") wasn't exactly standard or helpful either. Of course, everyone would want pilots that double check unclear instructions when close to a runway, or with low visibility for instance. But we're talking about taxiing in broad daylight and good visibility here, it's not exactly rocket science. A mean response ? Come on now, there was nothing mean, the JBU pilot could easily have brushed it off. This makes him sound like he chose to be difficult on purpose.

@@hotrodoftheskies I don’t agree, but I don’t wanna bicker over it so I’ll leave it at that

@@hotrodoftheskies sounded like a threat to me!

Indeed

That's not the way clearances work though. The JetBlue could still be cleared to the gate and the pilot moves the plane waiting for it to be clear. It's like a blocked intersection in traffic. Just because you have the green light doesn't mean you cross if you're going to block the intersection.

@@xplayman which is what they did

I think the controller was fine.. but I understand why the JetBlue pilot got pissed, he was getting annoyed at being stuck. Should have kept it off the air though, he was the unprofessional one.

​@@xplaymanthat's not how clearances work. He was cleared to continue to his gate. His clearance limit is his gate. It means he can move freely from his position (B14) to B8 freely

No need... That's not a requirement when you listen to the clearance. Obviously ATC isn't gonna tell them to taxi into an airplane, it's an automatic, "when able" clearance to taxi to the gate whenever they can. If the Jetblue was paying attention, they'd see the company jet is about to taxi and just got a clearance.

@@erauprcwa It's not a requirement but it's a courtesy that would have probably ended the conversation and made things go more smoothly. But both sides refused to budge and this is what happened instead.

@@erauprcwa If JetBlue had accepted that and another plane hit them because Tower gave them vauge instructions, it would be their fault for not being where they were supposed to be.

@@erauprcwa So, I'm no pilot, but when communicating between ATC and pilots it seems to me that NOTHING should be assumed or implied, communication MUST be crystal clear. That's how we prevent disasters.

Yeah, South Park really nailed it with San Francisco and smugness. Act like they're the most superior humans on the planet while their town requires poop apps for navigation.

"Behind company traffic, proceed to gate" is the short version of "yep, I see your fellow pilot blocking your gate, but he's moving, and you are can as well when he is out of the way." This is the right thing to say. Likewise, "do you want to hold there for the rest of the day?" is the short version of "don't you know us frazzled SFO controllers have thin skin and a propensity to delay aircraft until they are fuel-critical? Don't call me unprofessional on frequency or I will violate you." This is the wrong thing to say.

ATC pretended to know the situation with a bogus confidence. He needed retraining. ATC lost all respect when he issued a threat to keep pilot there all day.

@@gzhang207 It wasn't a threat, it was a simple question. The controller gave a clearance to taxi and the Jetblue airplane refused.

Hindsight is rarely 20/20. I find an average of about 20/40 throughout society, but it seems to be getting close to 20/80 lately! :p

Yes

Janitor

like baggage handler

Nothing to do with atc, but my dad has this nail clipper in a keychain that he has. SFO is the only tsa checkpoint that has ever stopped him for it.

I mean you got to live in the worst city in the US so I’m not surprised

It is San Francisco

It's San Francisco. Of course they are miserable. Kalifornians managed to turn a beautiful location into a garbage dump.

@@oldNavyJZ Ok boomer.

The pilot was the one that sounded unprofessional. ATC was just trying to get him to his gate ASAP after a significant delay.

You're #10 for departure. Are you just gonna stop taxiing to the runway because there are people in front of you, then argue with controllers because people are in front of you and they didn't tell you?

ATC on a power trip is why, lol

Controller didn't indicate that it was possible pilot deviation. I think they might just want to hash it out because they're proud to just give clear instructions and move on with their lives. Everyone here is snarky for no reason whatsoever, but at least the pilot is the one following instructions and patiently waiting for his turn for like 20 minutes.

Because they’re gonna talk off frequency so the controller can continue to do his job. He’s not going to be reprimanded. The clearance wasn’t “murky”. I hear that clearance every day I’m at work and everyone understands it. SFO has a crappy reputation right now and rightfully so but this is not an example of a bad controller.

The pilot criticised the controller for blocking the frequency, which was fair, but the controller wanted to continue to argue about it, so asked to continue by phone. If there had been anything to discuss, that would be entirely correct. The controller should have just acknowledged that he could have been clearer with his instruction and dropped it, though.

A controller can't reprimand a pilot. The controller works for the pilot. The government works for the pilot. An administrative court is the only one that can levy a penalty against the pilot, but only for violating laws, not policies or some other FAA nonsense. The controller forgot his place again.

There was no need to say that... Do you need a "when able" call when you're number 5 for takeoff and there are airplanes in front of you for departure?

😂

The "news" is the company operations, NOT ground control. Ground doesn't know when they're gonna push. So it's on the JetBlue aircraft to find out how long the delay will be.

I wonder how much per minute it costs just to have an aircraft with passengers on board just waiting

​@@chrisharkins6929 they have insurance for that. Both airlines and insurers make a lot of money so at the end of the day the only one paying for it is the passengers. 🤠

Or pilot could have just read back the clearance and continue his taxi behind the other aircraft

If you do: get a sleeper unit or it'll be totall f***ing nightmare.

I wish they had those super duper express trains here in the US like they have in Europe.

Time equals money in this case it would be a lot

Na, the ATC's actions can't be justified. They gave an instruction that could not be executed when it was given. One thing they teach pilots is to never, ever, assume anything. If the instruction is not clear, or does not make sense, then the instruction should be questioned. ATC cleared them to the gate and the gate was not open. Pilot correctly stated "I can't, it's blocked". The proper response from ATC should have been to give a more detailed instruction "when company traffic clears the gate, cleared to gate B8". That is an instruction that could be executed.

@@neutralcommenter7800the instruction absolutely made sense. He had been waiting for 30 minutes for the gate. Of course when the controller finally tells you to taxi to the gate the plane that is blocking is going to start moving . It’s clear and obvious when a plane is ready to taxi when the push crew is out of the way. I agree ATC could have done a little more to avoid all this, put that pilot gets paid too much money to act the way he did too.

⁠@@neutralcommenter7800lmao that is so divorced from reality. “Taxi alpha, alpha 6, bravo” is entirely valid if there are already planes lined up on alpha, alpha 6, or bravo. This was no different than that - you’re cleared to the gate via this taxiway. How do you think planes taxi at busy airports? One at a time per taxiway? “Hey air Canada 1, we’ve got to keep you on A1 waiting for A to clear, because the plane two miles down the taxiway is still on A, I can’t clear you on to it.”

@@qwerty112311Air Canada does the opposite actually. They'll buzz 4 loaded widebodies on the Taxiways of SFO if you ask them to wait.

@@qwerty112311 What you've done is a straw man argument. You've replaced my argument with a different scenario that is not the same (and changed the standard from an instruction that can be executed (what I argued) versus one that is "valid"), then argued that other scenario. Even under your scenario you are still wrong - ATC would include in the instruction, "pull in behind company traffic" or "pull in behind the 737". The only reason you are arguing this is because of how mundane the situation was. Here is a better analogy that is more clear: "Cleared to Land, Runway 31R" When the pilot is just about to land they see that there is another plane occupying runway 31R. The instruction was "valid" but the runway (just as the gate in this audio) was occupied and the instruction cannot be executed. Should the pilot just land anyway based on the assumption that the other plane would be clear of the runway by the time the plane that was cleared to land actually landed - after all ATC wouldn't have cleared them to land if the runway wasn't going to be clear when they got there (THAT IS THE EXACT SITUATION IN THIS AUDIO)? NO. The instruction was not clear as it could not be safely executed and the pilot should question the controller. Just because the situation is more mundane here doesn't mean the pilot shouldn't do what is safest by questioning ATC.

It's not a serious issue at all it would only be an issue if the other plane was pointing the other way, taxi clearances are given to follow behind other aircraft all the time it's up to the PIC to leave the required space between the aircraft to carry out their movement

JetBlue pilot was just being stupid. Continue to the gate is so simple, once there's an opening taxi in.

Yea, I'm with the pilot on this one.

Controllers often forget they are optional to the air traffic system. They are servants to the system, not authority. Authority comes only from the taxpayer, delegated to the FAA via specific laws. Controllers are merely an optional means to that end. Plenty of airports operate without controllers and controllers will one day be eliminated either by legislation or technology.

​@@AquariusTurtleeliminate controllers? Sure.. just like eliminate pilots... these busy airports can have pilots metering themselves in lol

@@jakes_on_a_planeOf course it is possible to eliminate controllers. Air Traffic Service is just that, a service. It's not the ultimate authority, the aircraft users are. Software can be used to deconflict and create plans for aircraft queuing in all phases of flight. It already exists in piecemeal. There's no good reason to keep controllers. Getting rid of pilots is not a good idea. No computer is reliable enough with the severe limitations of an aircraft. A human operator works regardless of power loss or software issues. Regarding Air Traffic Service, remember that pilots have always done their own metering. That's what VFR flying is. That's what oceanic crossings are. In the military, we do large scale, complex operations with no radio contact or controllers. It's all done via prescripted procedural separation. Controllers are a liability at this point.

@@jakes_on_a_planeOf course. It's already done in many places. And even if it weren't, it's something that could plausibly be done algorithmic ally with no real complications.

no

no.

The pilot was pretty clear around 3:30 what the problem was

How has this comment already gotten close to 100 likes? Definitely not what happened.

No. Keep in mind that the actual communication between ATC and the pilot is crystal clear (absent another plane talking at the same time which did not happen here). What we are hearing is way worse.

their gate was B8, which was blocked all the time

you realize this video is NOT an accurate account to the second of what was going on. And if JBU would have actually listened he would of heard his company calling for taxi and then the controller giving them taxi instructions. Pretty positive if he was also looking out his window he would have seen the ground crew walking away back to the gate. JBU whole "your messing up ground" wasn't necessary. There's always that one pilot who thinks they are the only ones that exist.

In this case there is an accounting of time. Took almost 30 minutes to get to his gate.

@@sncy5303the gate was blocked the entire time until their company pushed and required a crossbleed start. That’s not the controllers fault.

So at 2:16 the gate opened, but the other jetblue was pushed from B7 first which blocked the gate as jetblue said

"As able" would have been a complete and viable instruction.

Pin this comment

Common sense does not apply to aviation or anything legal. He was given a collision course clearance. You either control or you don't. There's no halfway. That's why there are hold short clearances. You can't just give a taxi instruction and expect hold shorts at some nebulous point. It's that simple. All you guys that don't know aviation legalisms are using layman thinking.

Then according to your logic, any ATC can give any aircraft in the queue clearance to take off or line up even though there are preceding aircraft in front of you (all you have to do is follow the preceding aircraft? Right?), so why don’t they? Because it is not safe. Yes being on the ground frequencies, the risk of collisions is low, because it is unlikely the pilot will drive his airplane into the tail of the other aircraft… but that doesn’t mean the ATC instructions has to be so poor. Way too often in the US, like SFO or JFK, taxi to the alleyway or taxi to the ramp… that’s just poor instructions… even the whole make a 180 degree turn instructions is poor… specified which taxiway do you want the aircraft to make the 180… stop being so lazy / sloppy as an ATC.

@@wowpeterYou are absolutely right. This is controller operational complacency at its finest. These public servants can't have it both ways.

You can tell in the comments who is a pilot and who plays too much flight simulator and thinks they're a real pilot.

Doesn't help when you have crappy pilots who remain situationally unaware of their environments in a busy airspace.

or "at pilot's discretion"

The controller's instructions were not clear as they gave an instruction that could not be executed when the instruction was given. The rule for pilots is to never assume anything. If the instruction is not clear or doesn't make sense, it should be questioned.

Follow atc exact instructions at all times. We don't make our own inferences and then act on those inferences. Basic stuff.

@@JonDoe-007you’re allowed to use your brain sometimes.

Yup 👍

There are two pilots in the cockpit, including one Captain with thousands of hours I assume

@@VASAviation true. What’s your point? The FO is typically handling the radio on the ground. I can’t control every word that comes out of their mouth. I’ve been embarrassed many times but new FOs that say dumb things.

It's pretty obvious that the one talking at the end of the video is the Captain

@@VASAviation meh. The JB guy could have kept it cool. He did not. No matter which seat it was.

Exactly, a little situational awareness and this wouldn’t happen. Of course the airplane that just pushed back is going to be moving soon captain idiot. Taxi when he is clear.

The pilot did the right thing. The controller was causing a safety problem using lose language and making implications rather than giving legally explicit instructions. Controllers these days are lazy and dangerous.

@@AquariusTurtle nope. None of that clearance was incorrect or non standard.

@@SidestickPilotFind a legal document proving that was approved phraseology. If the gate was occupied, he should have been given a hold short clearance. End of story. It's no different than giving two pilots takeoff clearance simultaneously for the same runway. Controllers are often ignorant of the legalisms. They only know on the job shortcuts and localisms. These are third tier public servants.

@@AquariusTurtle plain language is allowed per the .65

What safety issue ?! He can SEE that there's an aircraft in the distance, can't he just use his brain for a minute and realize that it has just been given a taxi clearance and is about to move ? Does the clearance mean "Just go through them LOL" ? Does ATC also has to remind him to remove his parking brake before moving ?

What safety issue? The other JB was cleared to taxi and do a crossbleed start. The waiting JB was then told to taxi to their gate and then got snippy because the proceeding airplane hadn't moved yet.

Not a big deal but definitely an unpleasant exchange there with some rude comments when a simple "when able", "when it's clear", "when Jetblue moves" would have solved it. They were both stressed, that's for sure. SFO Ground must not be an easy position to handle.

But what about the passengers waiting 8 or more minutes AFTER B8 vacated? Or am I misreading the animation and time clock? That's fairly brutal when you've already landed long, long ago.

The JBU from B7 was already pushing back @@Bill_Woo

​@@Bill_Woo Its not that serious. You think 8 mins is brutal lol. Try flying into some bigger airports. They had to wait roughly 20 mins which isnt long considering that their company had to push off the gate. Flying into DEN is a 20 min taxi just to even get near the gate. ORD if your gate is occupied they will take you on a loop around the airport till your gate opens up and the alley is clear, which can take 30 mins depending on several factors. Plus, you have got to look at it like this. The pilot probably arrived early and their company wasnt prepared for that. Hence why the gate was still occupied.

@@VASAviationI definitely agree it could have been resolved much nicer.

You're joking, right?

The uploader mentioned there was some background interference so it's possible that the pilot didn't realize the gate was about to get freed up. The pilot for sure threw a fit but the controller could have easily avoided it.

The uploader mentioned there was some background interference so it's possible that the pilot didn't realize the gate was about to get freed up. The pilot for sure threw a fit but the controller could have easily avoided it.

The uploader mentioned there was some background interference so it's possible that the pilot didn't realize the gate was about to get freed up. The pilot for sure threw a fit but the controller could have easily avoided it.

The uploader mentioned there was some background interference so it's possible that the pilot didn't realize the gate was about to get freed up. The pilot for sure threw a fit but the controller could have easily avoided it.

The uploader mentioned there was some background interference so it's possible that the pilot didn't realize the gate was about to get freed up. The pilot for sure threw a fit but the controller could have easily avoided it.

true but they were waiting for like 30 minutes

@@emartinez2740 Totally fair, but let's also admit that's also less than professional. I think we can chalk this up to a loss of patience, and I hope professional pilots can strive for something better. Not that this was the worst case, but just on principle.

@@emartinez2740 That's not ATC's fault. Blame the company for taking long to push their own airplane.

That's what I'm saying. The snark from the pilot was unwarranted.

The immortal words of King (Rodney, not Martin).

Definitely agree with you. Both were a bit unprofessional, but with a little awareness the pilots would have known that the aircraft in front was cleared to taxi and would be on the move shortly.

Assigning an occupied gate is very common in busy airports. Time spaces are so tight. Go fly into JFK and tell me.

@@VASAviation You have that right! I was based at JFK with two different airlines.

LOL, you get triggered by ATC comments like this? You would never make it more than a week in this business.

Silly comment. Using a single Vasa clip help justify not visiting a city. lol.

Who would want to go to that Liberal Azz city anyways unless your WOKE as HELL...

The delay had nothing to do with ATC and everything to do with Jetblue. The jet that the crew were waiting on was delayed and required a high pressure air cart to start an engine at the gate most likely due to the APU being inoperative. In no way does the controller have any control over when that jet is gonna push. So to try and blame ATC for that is just not understanding how this actually works.

"That city"? My observation is that excessive parking delays are rare at SFO. The whole world is congested unless you live in the middle of nowhere. You can't just stay home.

@@wkelly3053a few other cities have decent public transportation

You don't think the plane at the gate was about to move and the controller didn't know that? What if everyone questions everything?

You don’t understand the situation or the clearance then. The occupied gate is not the controllers fault. Why are you trying to blame the controller for an occupied gate? The clearance given is perfectly legal and valid. The captain was just taking the piss. He’s the one who was acting unprofessional. The controller stayed professional the entire time.

Ok let’s put the same situation but change the location. When there is a departure que with aircraft waiting t the end of the runway block the full path to the runway, should the ground controller state “After the taxiway is clear, 1R taxi via…” in every single taxi clearance to said runways? No. You give the taxi instruction and the expectation is that you stop behind traffic you are following, and you continue when they continue. Ground does not need to micromanage the conga line of aircraft. Just because we have replaced the runway with the gate does not change how the instructions work. I am sure these JBU pilots have a wealth of experience under their belt to have made it to the position they are in. They should by now understand how taxi instructions work and that the clearance allows you to move when the guy infront moves.

@@SidestickPilotIt is the controller's fault. The ramp there is controlled by ground control. Pilots can't do anything there without controller negotiation. Get educated first, then make remarks.

@@AquariusTurtle ATP, former captain at a regional, 4.5k TT, 4 type ratings. 100’s of flights in and out of SFO. Again, the clearance was perfectly legal. “JetBlue xxxx taxi/continue to the gate. The controller cannot control when an aircraft is ready to push. The delay was due to company at the gate not the controllers fault. Please if you actually what you’re talking about even though it’s clear you don’t explain to me what about the clearance was illegal.