This video would be a lot better if Dr Nate had used the metric system

i am a student of envisci and this changed my life. thanks for sharing so much valuable content for free and making the world a better place!!

Dr Nate, I'm from Brazil. I'm learning a lot from your videos. I have 50m² of urban space, and I will try to build this system in the DIY style. I know it will be difficult, but here in my country nothing is easy. Much health and success for you.

But what about the plant density on a horizontal pane and a vertical one? One can easily notice that vertical panes have a less dense planting space by having the gaps between these vertical columns.

TL;DR in a vertical system you can use both sides of a "surface", but in a horizontal system you can't grow plants upside down.

I'm intrigued, but skeptical. You performed a little bit of mathematical slight of hand. You rounded down the growing space for the 8x8 ft. tier design, while you rounded up the growing space for the 6 ft. center vertical plane design, resulting in a comparison of 2.6 to 2.7, when in fact they're both equal to about 2.67. Also, I don't know much about vertical farming, but it looked like you were growing your plants at a much lower density than the horizontal plane operations I've seen, meaning you're getting a lot lower yield per unit of growing space and possibly negating the benefits of the increase in available growing space you created. Perhaps you have a good reason for doing that, I'm not sure, but it's worth taking that into account in your calculations. I do think the decrease in labor costs is valid.

dude. you flippen ROCK! I have done so much research for 2-3 months and seen 5-6 of your youtubes and everyone is awesome. thanks man

i cant wait to upgrade from my diy towers. even with my diy im getting those numbers, in full sun. this video is exactly what i needed to show to young farmers, landlords, ect. well done and a delight to watch. it answerers the questions of why? and how? the commercial applications are important worldwide- 90% less water.

Great rant Nate! I always knew vertical farming is the way to go. This video fills in the "holes" on the vertical vs. horizontal argument. Good stuff!

Hi Nate. Let me start by saying that the ZipGrow system you have designed and (unlike so many other companies out there with their "let me solve all your problems with my computer generated design") have put into production an awesome system that is actually getting out there to the urban farming communities and making great changes, thank you guys. Now this is just my take on horizontal/vertical systems overall and I love mathematics and I do not have any "ifs and or buts" about how you guys are crushing it out there :-) Installing a mezzanine to increase the height of horizontal plane and vertical plane growing space is the most practical method for making best use of the inside of a high ceiling warehouse space, after all the zip grow towers have an upper limit for their own height and to increase productivity in a high ceiling ware house there would need to be multiple floors as well. Alternatively, and this is my concept for indoor horizontal growing, is the use of pallet shelving as the racking system (standard practice it would seem) but with the addition of walk-space connected between the pallet shelving to create different floors to work from and to narrow the space between the pallet shelving and also a space saver. The cost saving doing this is enormous just installing walkways and shelving can be taken to just eye level and a volume above that for ducting electrical wiring etc. (you put what you want there !) because each level only needs to be a bit more than head height. This is a much safer than using scissor lifts and much cheaper than installing mezzanines and I have been going over this design with my local pallet shelving company with the hope of installing at least a small system by the end of next year and I'm not looking to sell this concept as I'm sure someone has been doing something like this already. Thanks again for another great vid and I enjoy the comparison content you guys put out.

Thank you for this! Really helped me with my architectural thesis, based on urban farming. :)

Thanks for the video and really breaking this down. I agree with your calculations on square feet, but am not so convinced on labor costs, which might be a larger culprit than rent per sqft. The way I see it, rafts are easy to work with because you have no media to clean or replace (also have less water loss/temperature issues than drip emitters). Maybe others would agree but I think doing a video debunking my concerns would be overwhelming evidence towards your product. But for now, I think the reason stacking is so popular is because of the 'raft' concept not the horizontal vs vertical concept (which you explain so well). This is only intended to spark conversation, I love what you guys are doing. Alex

A really important consideration is that horizontal stacking is still important for hydroponics if you want to use robots and export your crops to external markets around the world.

I have three problems with this system. 1. Nobody cancels gravity meaning leafy greens will get deformed. If you sell your produce to restaurants then it probably wouldn't matter that much how it looks; however, if you sell it to grocery stores then you may have a problem. 2. Maths sounds good here, but what I didn't hear is that how many harvests would you get using vertical plane compare to horizontal plane. How much light exposure do plants get with this system and how evenly the light covers the growing area? 3. Also, vertical plane system limits farmers with what plants they can grow. Obviously, this system is limited to growing plants such as lettuce; however, you won't be able to grow microgreens, for instance.

Hi Neil, thanks for the video. I had a big question starting at 3:17, because (if I'm following your calculations correctly) your modelling is based on one access row for every plant row. However, if I were laying out a horizontal production facility, I'd have one *center* access aisle for every *two* rows of plant production, which doubles the (in)efficiency ratios of the horizontal model, if I'm thinking straight. Am I missing something? Thanks for your work. I am going to give your system some serious consideration & evaluation. -- Daniel.

Hey @scapest (Maxim) in response to your 3 questions: 1. Plants orient using primarily via gravitropism and phototropism. With many plants phototropism overrules gravitropism (as it should, to ensure the plant’s survival). So we’re not cancelling gravity, we’re offering a more compelling biological incentive to orient the way we want them to. You can’t tell the difference between a head of bok choi produced in our system and that produced in a field, except ours is probably more nutritious and flavorful. 2. Same as a horizontal system. The efficiency of light delivery isn’t impacted. 3. Sure, but microgreens require dedicated systems no matter what. i.e. they guys growing stacked horizontal lettuce can’t just turn that system around and grow microgreens. Microgreens will always be grown in a system that is designed for them. Vertical plane systems for general crops will always be able to grow anything that a stacked horizontal system can grow.

It's really crazy dr. Nate!!

This was extremely helpful. Thanks!

This is why I subscribed, great video

Insanely awesome!! this is what i was working on !! you just cleared the few ambiguous thoughts i had! great work !! Subscribed!! :)

Wow. After getting past my difficulties with your horizontal plane calculations, I can see the elegance of your vertical model. Stunningly elegant in the elimination of so many production cost variables. Well done, sir -- and well thought out. Hat tip to you!

Thank you very much for taking time and effort to share your incredibly important knowledge!!

Great video, Thank you for sharing all this great info. However, could this be applied to hydroponic fodder systems as well? I have noticed that all hydroponic fodder systems are trays stacked up together. can this be fodder be grown by vertical plane production ? please do let me know. Thanks again

Why does this video not have more views! great information. I'm always looking for calculations and proof of methods for me to be convinced, and i'll say that this convinced me. I can't wait to start growing with this method.

GREAT basic math application.. Totally going to use it in my classroom - if ya dont mind.

You have to physically visit each unit to harvest, transplant, etc. which makes it more energy intensive to automate. Frontal access water channels are more efficient for full automation. Growing predictable, low hight crops such as lettuce and Basil, you can eliminate the need for fully functional walkways and have tighter levels. The municipal bylaw is also avoided regarding the walkway if they don't hire employees, which is enabled by full automation. While your arguments are valid in commercial, large scale production, I believe owner-operated small scale systems are exempt from some of the conditions you explained. Both horizontal and vertical plane systems have their merits for different purposes, and I will say that the large horizontal plane systems I've seen are inefficient as the grow beds must also be visited individually rather than fed through a production line. You can grow more plants per sq. ft. using vertical plane, but you lose some automation efficiency and increase the upfront costs of automation vs. channels. I've settled on a horizontal plane configuration for my aquaponics shipping container greenhouse design, with a focus on reducing labour input and providing for owner operators. I believe that for less than the price of a vehicle, a person should be able to buy their freedom, there are many roads to this goal.

Another problem with stacked vertical production is the facilities need an insane amount of power - frequently megawatts of power.

Hi Nate, would verical plane production be possible for fodder production. I have seen that most if not all of fodder growing is done in a horizontal plane

Thank you very much for this video!

What lights would you recommend for vertical growing

Thanks for this video. I haven't done the math yet and this video really helps. Another thought on rafts verses vertical production. You've sold me on square footage, but what about actual production levels. It is possible to concentrate young plants with raft production and space them out as they grow. How do you take that into account. It would be great to see a video comparing production levels (in # of plants) and labor costs of raft vs. vertical. Keep up the good work!

i subscribed to your channel, just after watching this video

would the walk way only be 2 foot because its used for 2 vertical grows one on each side for the walk way?

was just racking my brain about this. then the perfect title pops up. then you say you're gonna legit quantify it with maths. mmmm. this the good stuff. thank you. lol

How many pounds of food are you growing compared to horizontal on a floor plan with equal square feet? Horizontal growing looks like it's far more dense, which leads me to believe that you would grow more that way.

awesome video sir! could I use this idea using a 55g fish tank and 30g sump with one pump? I like the idea of splitting the inlet. I would like to make 2. A frame grow beds, one for flower lights, and one from veg.. What do you think about compact fluorescence and led lights? my pump is a cheap online pump Rio+1100 says it gets 87gph at 6ft head. I wish you could do a starting kit video- for a indoor hobbeyer like myself. I would like to start small with some tilapia and vegetables and get my bio media built up and then moved to little bigger aquaponics system outside. what do you think is best to start with?

Thank you very much for this video, it was nice to see the actual math on it.

Thank you for this valuable information

@Bright Agrotech: But what is the maximum height the vertical layer can reach? Considering the per sq feet area is high wont horizontal make more sense?

do I supply water constantly in NFT system by 24/7. please let me know.

Doesn't an aisle serve stacks either side? Would bring the calculation to 4x8 and 2x8 per stack.

For case of 2 feet wide isle for vertical farming. Would the vertical light bar hinders the isle for staff operation?

does the center of gravity change as you increase or decrease the base of the unit, and at what base will your unit be stable? how are the nutrients distribution to the plants throughout the unit? at 9 feet tall, harvest can be done without a lift for the top plants?

you've got a plant density issue in the system you show buddy. Huge gaps between rails. You assumptions might be true if you assumed you could get the same plane density of a horizontal plane.

Hi. I quite like your system. Currently I am using the kratky method in my greenhouse due to having no access to power (just starting up) I thought about using the kratky method shallow water beds for lettuce production because it does not require power but in the future I'm thinking that this method may not work for large production. If I have a large greenhouse space in a rural area do you still recommend using a vertical system rather than taking up valuable floor space with nfp or water beds? Thanks! Chad

Dr Nate, tks for the video. But in coming to the conclusion about vertical system being better choice than racking horizontal system, has it factored the diff in density of plants between the two systems? Horizontal seems so much more dense than the vertical system? Tks

Great Information, Thank you for your video !!!

It seems many believe the best way is horizontal plane. That is probably due to a natural sense of self orientation. Plants don't care. They want to live and do what ever they can to do so. How many trees grow from nearly sheer mountainsides? A lot. What seems to have been missed is the ability to expand rows of towers to accommodate access as needed then collapse to a more dense format. In the horizontal system you needed room on both sides, Dr Nate's system only needs one free space which can be shifted between each module cluster. And they are rapidly serviced with his modular ZIP columns. Bring a fresh one, and swap it with the ready to harvest column. That is fast. It also provide a much larger area for the plant to grow. So taller vegetation can be harvested as well. Even better, another floor above, do the same thing. Easy in a 20' high warehouse. Smart man. Now if we can just get wheat, corn, and other grains to grow only 2' high.

How do you keep the plnts in place?

What's a good light for a vertical system like this?

HI @Bright Agrotech the video was really nice i would like to know how to build such a tower system :)

Would you post a photo of the horizontal plane you are talking about? When you compare the cost of a fork lift (even renting) then it's a no brainer. The image you provided for the horizontal plane (at :36) doesn't look like you could use a fork lift on it.

You're a genius 🤯🙌🙌

Thanks for answering a question I have been asking for ages. Great videos btw!

Great video! Wish I would have found this sooner. But it will help me going forward with design. Thanks!

👍 *Wonderful Information*

wow! Exciting!

The system you are using looks like the 5 inch square post found in most box stores. Are they considered to be food safe?

Great freakin' video guys.

Confused in metrics.. anyone else come from metrics?

@Bright Agrotech : Is this solution good for plants with tubers?

I think that these numbers work with lettuces, but not with herbs such as cilantro. Because you have to use some growing textile covered by seeds (like AeroFarms do) and in this case you can't put them vertically + these vertical towers will not cover the same square space as the growing textile, because you have gaps between towers and only a narrow slot where to plant the seeds. Basically you want to have a sea of green rather than separate plants.

What about water and fertilizer costs on vertical plane vs. horizontal plane? I've seen other videos that have taken hp systems and use a misting technique to feed the roots and a reusable cloth type material for substrate. They claim a savings of over 90% in fertilizer costs and similar or higher savings in using reusable fabric vs. coconut husks or other types of material.

How are you able to distribute equally the water when its vertical? A constant water flow?

how does the irrigation work in this system?

wow, your idea is great

This is wonderful and we hope that this technology will be in Egypt soon

at this year, is this system is good or bad?

I like this video, and the premise, but I think there is an important piece missing in the explanation. In your horizontal models, you said something about needing 4 feet above the plants for proper ventilation, disease control, etc... (aka - 4 feet for healthy plants). When you switched to the vertical models, you recommended 6 feet on center, which only gives 3 feet of "air" for each plant. Didn't you just reduce the amount of space needed for healthy plants by 25%?

Intelligent idea

What about this system in a outdoor greenhouse environment?? Any thoughts please Thanks :)

can you grow tomatoes and other veggies or just lettuce stuff?

I'm building a large indoor farm in Vero Beach, Fl what would be the cost for a 12.500 sf area with your towers?

Brah. Sounds good, makes sence. Now some crops wont do well growing like this, so still need a tier bed...

I assume the arithmetic accounts for a constant plant spacing for both the tarred and vertical? Could you go further concerning the arithmetic on the number of plants to sqft ratio. I think that would be more valuable to the grower

i love this ❤️❤️❤️❤️👍👍👍👍

I think one factor that is also important is the density per square feet. It seems like the horizontal is way denser..

What are you using to suspend the plants in this system without disturbing roots/other plants?

Can anyone answer why after 4tiers you break even or at a loss. Im not sure why. Thank you

Sq. Footage is not the key. Could you share what is the number of plants in both cases? Because the customers would not buy Sq. F. but amount of product.

video shows tower that's about 8' tall not the 5' towers. I don't see it for sale in your web site. Also see that you are now leaning the towers by around 10 degrees maybe 15 degrees. Can you talk more about it. Are the 8' towers available for sale? I ended up leaning my towers by about 15 degrees to reduce the chances of "leaking". thanks Nate.

What if you created a system where the plant racks move up and down, you could always deal with plant management on the first plane. The racks would go underground instead

Mind me asking whats the water consumption change from the reusable cloth horizontal bed design that required 1 liter of water a day per 20'x8' (mist roots method) compared to this design? I can tell this design still requires traditional bedding.

13:12 "you gotta pump those numbers up, those are rookie numbers in this racket"

I really like the concept and tzhe way you answer to not so positive comments Just by looking at it, it looks like you can just place a few hand full of leafy greens on 1 m^2 but using the other (not so good) method you can pack it pretty dense So here is my question: Why not stack the growing platforms way higer then 4 and change the method how you reach them? Using the scissor elevater is not so good I can see that but why dont use some automated warehouse roboter system to lower the platform so you work on ground floor? Anyway I like the stuff you are doing go on! (:

u are amazing !! i wish we can have webinar with you!By we, I mean, I am a stundent at Dahousie University in Nova Scotia, Canada. I am taking Green House management course. My prof would might be delighted to get you on skype and talk to us and share your experience (30 to 45 mins or more the merrier) . I wish you can share the up coming tech part of the vertical growing systems along with the growing systems and their dynamics which currently you are using! : ) Cheer !

What's operational cost between the two?

Hay what about electricity bill cost and how may pumps is u using?

Is there any info on the inside mechanics of a vertical farming facility? not just "buy on eBay" recommendations that I found... ...

Great video and you can't argue with the math/ There is a major concern that I have and that is the cost of setting a vertical system VS a horizontal system. The problem we have here in South Africa is the cost of importing something like a ZipGrow tower. or a Grow Wall. To import it into this country with all it's import taxes take the cost of a tower to between 150% to 200% if customs are feeling generous. More if they are feeling pedantic. Couple that with the Rand-Dollar exchange rate that just went through the roof, you would look at R1321 per tower if you bought them in 1000 tower batches. For the same amount, you could build a horizontal system that can house a lot more plants. True, your running costs will be higher but labour is fairly cheap here. Personally, I would prefer using a vertical system but I really don't know if the capital costs are worth it.

Your talking about a stationary horizontal racks. What if the horizontal racks were on a moving oval like carpet at a Home depot. Full cycle twice a day. Would that cure the height restriction and put everything at standing level?

What the hell is a scissor lift? Anyway I am making a tiny hobby Hydroponic garden with horizontal style. This thing is so small it's laughable. If I get one tomato it will be the event of the year. I'm just trying to learn and understand on a small scale. I love this Nate guy passionate about his work -- great. I'm just soaking up the knowledge right now.Keep up the good work Nate. Knowledge is power.

Can you grow Iceberg lettuce in a vertical system or will the weight (800 gram in my case) be a problem?

I like the system you propose here but if i have to be honest it seems to me your plant density is much much lower than the flatbed systems. Your yield per square foot will be a quarter of what they are doing just looking at your plant spacing. your calculations only apply to space availeble to produce and not for the actual square feet of greens in the growbeds. Your system definately seems easier to work with wich will iompact labour costs.

I may be a couple months late to the party, but your answers to Maxim helped me a lot. I don't think you answered an important earlier question regarding plant sites per SF which speaks to the a key tenant: Yield. So, by literal example, how many lettuce heads per SF in your vertical plane vs typical (or various) horizontal systems?

Very helpful to understand the pros of vertical farming. Are there only pros? After reading many of the comments bellow, I see that there are still some preferring the stacking tiers over towers. What is it that you are not telling us about vertical, as in tower farming? Thanks so much for your work on making farming cool again by the way :)

This vertical system is extremely impressive. I wonder could you do a video talking about the "Ferris wheel" method. This solves the air flow and accessibility problems for taller horizontal systems. I think that this vertical plane system is without doubt the best for leafy crops and some fruiting bodies which make up many of the high yield and turnover cash crops. However I have seen similar rack systems however with (slightly) diagonally stacked horizontal growing lanes. This still uses the same principle however I think it could be superior for growing some crops like root vegetables and sprouts have the highest yeild in wide "grassy" trays. So in conclusion this vertical system is AMAZING!! It looks extremely profitable as leafy greens are some of the best hydroponic crops to take to market. However i think that you shouldn't rule out all forms of horizontal farming as it could be more effective for certain crops and niche markets.

Will the vertical plane production system work in the Greenhouse without the lighting system?

Jungle canopy lights have to change how does that change cost

Centralized Vertical Farm is about space use efficiency. What if the same vertical growing concept is done at home? For example, a home CEA at 2 ft x 2 ft footprint can produce 90 heads per month or 2~3 lettuce per day, enough for a smaller family. Since there is minimum labor cost, one could harvest fresh daily at only $0.50 per head with highest nutrition value since the crops is harvest on demand. The growing metrics is not about size but high quality pesticide-free crops for the family.