I am in psychotherapy for over a year now, read and listen to A LOT of materials on Karpman's triangle, victimhood, narcissism etc. and I have to say - I've never heard a better message than this one. Take the responsibility, people! Everywhere! For everything! We don't get laid off - we lose our jobs!

Not long after the relationship had begun with (suspected) narcissistic partner, I began a friendship with a lady. She just loved my victim stories (relationship with suspected narcissist). She really played the rescuer. I soon found that she was also very cluster B. Very! Now I was in a triangle. I always felt a little embarrassed as I knew that my own abandonment anxiety, and related behaviours, were also to blame. So when I felt more afraid of abandonment, it felt safer to keep playing victim. Eventually, both 'abusers' scared me away. The anxiety was too great. It took a few years for me to accept the situation, and my role in it. I guess some shred of self-efficacy allowed me to get away. Interestingly, really amping up my hiking in the mountains is what allowed me the space and sense of efficacy to move on.

Logically evident but extremely difficult to accept in ourselves. I am fighting my way out of it, I refuse to live in denial and victim hood. 🛑

My sister…big time. I totally believe she’s borderline personality and narcissistic. Had been controlling and busy body my entire life. Always involved in my life, choices, relationships. I had to cut her off and go no contact. They are exhausting people!!!

One of the best lectures ever, absolutely brilliant.

Triangulation is NEVER good, shows unhealthy boundaries, incapacity to avoid addiction, rather looking for healthy emotions and relationships (staring with self one -self worth, self dignity and self esteem). Governments with its narcissists politicians are abusing nations ever since has been formed in every way possible dehumanising people UNFORTUNATELY!

I am a highly trained ontological coach. I do not rescue people, and neither do my colleagues, quite the opposite, but I get what you are saying. This channel is brilliant. Thanks for all you do.

What do you consider the major factor of why we stayed ? Trauma bonds , love , loyalty, loss of identity fear , naivety or learned helplessness ? Why did we rationalize the treatment ? What steps are needed for freedom from learned helplessness when many are left in shambles?

❤ thank you Sam for this excellent lesson! A few months ago i became part of a triangle. That was when my best friend stept in as the savior of the broken relationship between me and my ex who i believe is a narcissist. A few weeks later i found out my ex chose her as his new supply, and now they are happily in love 😂😂😂 she wants to stay friends with me.... But no. I stepped out of this toxic triangle immediately. I don't want to play the victim role. There is a tiny problem : we all live in the same street, not more than 20 meters apart from each other. Such a soap ‼️ But i will be okay.... In time 😊...... no contact for now.

This is it, : Helplesness is the natural state of mind of infants and persists unless you learn and develop habilities, skills, knowledge. Recieving the natural feedback to that effort , the brain learns helfulness and avoids inminent depression and mental disorders. this is the most important and empowering insight ever , one that can actually get us out of the victim wheel cycle . Thank you Sam. Yes I have seen this in my life over the years, epiphany moment ,now seems cristal clear why I changed totally how I percieve past experiences and abuse. I dont hate people anymore, and started solving my shit by myself, like wtf am I really doing it in life ? Must say still remains some feeling of, maybe was luck, autosabotage is for me the way to stop avoiding "what anyway is gonna happen....", maybe this insight can actually help stoping this precise pesky worthless warning. Gonna write this down visible for everyday remembering and change it for good. Thank you

Thank you! Coming from the victimized / narcisst family I am learning alot!

«They love that people depend on them…they don’t want the people they “help” to save- that’s the core of the so called rescuers…

Three's a crowd. It is an uneven number. In any bad circumstance there always turns out the victim, saviour and abuser within the threesome. I am talking about in adults. But how will it ever turn out good in the end, with these three? Someone is going to lose out, for sure. I stay away from triangle situations.

Thank you good man for the valuable knowledge you share. Your great analysis and orderly message make everything clear and understandable even for a ordinary person. Thank you 💚

Thank you Sir You are helping me a lot

Very intriguing presentation (was half-expecting a mic drop at the end there :) Regarding "learned helplessness", the hypothesis that helplessness is our default state (from infancy), and it is *helpfulness* which must be learned seems like a no-brainer; it's advocating for 'self-help' in the truest sense. I'm new to IFS, but already see how reframing abuse in light of understanding the roles we adopt can be beneficial in therapeutic practice (will be interesting to see the results if this is more widely applied). Thanks for the recommended readings as well, as there's a lot to digest here!

💡💡💡learned helplessness! Thank You Sam🤔👍🏻

What happens if the female part of the couple leaves the triangle for good and the construct collapses? How would the remaining two persons proceed with each other without the familiar triple dinamics?

Waw, this video.is so spot on. I would say that I have been assigned the victim role. I see all the roles present in a current relationship, just the other day I saw this dynamic and I realized as a " victim" there is nothing I can do for the persecutor nor the rescuer and me, well I refuse to be a victim so I find myself resisting both and they tell me they treat me badly because I am hurting them! 🙈💆 How to not be in a triangle ? Is this inevitable? I don't think myself a victim, I don't want that role and I prefer to figure out shit on my own.

What about denial in e.g. adult victims of CSA? Aren´t a lot of them doing the opposite of what you´re talking about in blaming and shaming themselves for their abuse when they have been completely helpless as a child and didn´t have any choice or possibility to take control of the situation? Isn´t accepting they have been victimized one of the first steps to healing? For sure it´s very important for them to learn how things are different as an adult and that they have choices and can protect themselves nowadays.

I have a question for you, Prof Vaknin if you will indulge me: my understanding is that the victim in a narcissistic triangle will retain reality testing. My question is, how is this the case if the victim is a narcissist? Don't they have trouble relating to external objects and an obscured/deluded relationship with reality? Don't narcissists have trouble with cogitation and memory? I think I must be misunderstanding something here. Thank You. PS you're a genius, I'm a huge fan.

this may also be a dramatic dyad with “the victim” - the therapist is overly excited saying “YOU have to be a survivor”. There is a lot of contamination in many therapists/teachers who continually feel they are frustrated at “failure-bound” clients. They maybe secretly believe they are the true victim in all states - they are the true survivors putting up with everyone aren’t they? A good understanding of the current literature from respected publishers in TA can offer hope to resolve this - depression can be resolved by successful internal dialogue and social relationships between the child and parent ego states. All the reasons for negative scripts, defences are not necessarily pathological - but can be worked through with a good therapist aware of counter-transference -and there’s no expectation you should think of yourself as a victim or survivor - you are both and neither depending on context - that mindset is just attacking a symptom - not the real structure- and itself a script from frustrated saviours. The pseudo-victims will not be listening to this video - and those who may take it to heart - will likely not really have the victim pathology outlined - and should check out pro TA sources - (particularly big in the UK lately.)

In the workplace, the " CC " on an email is the perfect creation for a drama triangle. Hence, I believe the " CC" is evil. The " CC" is the easiest way a " drama triangle " can be introduced and as a employee and supervisor immediately triggers the rescuer, persecutor or victim sense. Immediately, as Dr. Vaknin mentioned, this can result in a rotation of parts among all parties involved. A " kernel of truth" can be used as a means to immediately used to blame/disparage all lost in a workplace situation masking the underlying pattern of each individuals ability to play a certain role, abuser/victim/persecutor. And as the situation moves towards resolution, this masquerade is played out trying to make sense of the situation, all along taking the individuals involved on a " false movie/narrative/theater."

Some people feel really strong pain when they think others suffer. If those people participate in a drama triangle, is it always completely fake empathy? Can it not be a combination?

Can you talk about the Flying Monkeys in detail? I assume they can be different than the people you described in this video. Or maybe they are all the same cast members? Thanks!