So they're right?

literally describing hypergamy ...... its not possible biologically for a group of randomly selected women to be so much better looking then a group of randomly selected men. the men and women in that room would likely have similar attractiveness........ but the women of all levels of attractiveness will decide to fixate on the few men far above the women's level of attractiveness. basically a harem scenario.

​@@mendoza4789 It's worth pointing out that annie lord unironically said what all incels say women do. It helps to highlight just how destructive and unhealthy commodified dating is, as it replaces the most important question's of: "are you friends with your partner", "can you be bored with your partner" and "can you be stressed with your partner" and replaces it with concepts like "sexual marketplace value" and "fashion ability to date" and "how many other people desire them". which works together to create a relationship that looks good and desirable from the outside, but leaves everyone involved in it unhappy and without a proper intimate connection.

Really problematic. I don't think she realises this. Her and her friends are treating ordinary men in their own league like dirt. Then complaining when they get treated badly by the one guy who has choices. Then generalising as if that is all men.

​@@cheekyboy5000 exactly it's either shows a staggering lack of empathy, or the fact she is inhabiting an echo chamber without knowing it.

Men also want to be with someone they find attractive, and the bombardment of advertising and social media has made the window for what is considered attractive much smaller while disregarding the beauty of so many qualities and features that make people unique.

@@serialchillin I agree with you on both points (not clear if you made more than two).

@@serialchillin men find 80% of women attractive, proven by the okcupid study

​@@serialchillinwhat a bunch of bullshit lmao most men would be fine with an average woman

@@serialchillin Yeah, with someone that's attractive, but there is no way there wasn't at least one other man at the club that was attractive. Women's standards are too high, and no, men's are not. Also, society doesn't enable men in this unrealistic behavior or hold them above approach, like it does for women.

Women's problem is locking down chad, men's problem is getting any type of attention at all. Its just so evident in convos like this that women have no idea about what the average experience of a man looks like and why this leads them to the redpill/tate scammers.

I don't think it's that men's issues were dismissed, more that this is only a 1hr 19m convo and men themselves weren't the primary topic. There's plenty of output from Ash and Novara Media that discusses men's issues with more depth.

​@@Cameron_David_ Yup this chat so needed a trans-man in it, as it would give a viewpoint which has experienced both sides and would not be dismissed out of hand

@@seb-fluffysnowcap9530a trans man? Really? Not a man?!

@@alst4817a trans man has the experience of a sexual life as a woman and as a man. They can asset to the whole “dating/sex is easier for this gender” a lot better

I agree. As long as we try to be the same and think we understand each other..we never will Because it is old news that men and woman have a different way of thinking and coping. But in this world this is not an accepted thing because i can't say we are different.....

True

They desperately needed a guy there to contribute

​@@M0101EPExactly. Which is totally mad.

The interview with Costello was good

Men have always had to deal with significantly more rejection as we are the propositioners. Women rightfully typically wait to be propositioned. Suck it bro this is part of how life is. Suck it bro it’s just how it is

Yes because the average man is invisible to most women.

@@getmurked6859 his point is that they don't understand and you dismissed him ....ffs

But she literally knows it. She is just doing mental gymanstic. Ag 30:28 she says ALL her friends find only one guy attractive and still says "men have the power"

It's her job. People like this make a living by keeping the divides going.

Yeah low key she was a bit lost during this conversation and the Novara girls were going completely over her head

It was hard to listen to.

Louise Perry wrote an excellent book about this

It was sort of mentioned in the piece, but Annie writes from different and personal viewpoint rather than using abstract or socio-political language about the topic. I think the twice she asked to clarify the question were moments where she's literally just thinking about the application of the language Ash and Moya use to more real life situations she usually writes about. I found the constrast quite interesting.

Am I right in assuming you are a straight man? As that is a very male experience of dating sites, thanks to the extreme gender imbalance of users

Oh know not a vegan

Get dating apps into public ownership!

@@alfiecdyson i'd be interested to hear how you think this would change them? whilst they function for profit at the moment, I'm not sure nationalising a swiping based app tomorrow, without changing any of the UI/algorithm/over all model would actually make it less shit for anyone? it would be like a dating agency run by the state?

Many men I met online and in person for that matter, seriously lack social skills with women. Many just talk and talk about themselves, if I say something, interrupt me and continue talking about themselves. Ridiculous. Men need to get out there and learn to socialize with women and understand us

And by and large it is, that’s what you’re doing, you’re commodifying yourself to the vanity of others. Online dating is a scourge.

It’s worse! It’s a hybrid of ebay and instagram...

@jcorb Not quite équivalent, in person there's more to consider when you're interacting. Online it's literally just a photo and maybe a blurb.

@jcorb It's more commodified online bcs you're intentionally 'marketing' yourself for likes where the decision is made on the most superficial basis. When you meet ppl organically you may not even have the intention of trying to 'market' yourself for a date, you could simply come across someone and want to meet them again. It's not a deep nor complicated point to grasp.

A peacock flexes its feathers to advertise and attract a mate. Maybe we are not so different...

When did they talk about that?

Yep, I was initially really interested in learning from a different PoV, but by the end, so many of their points were basically TEXTBOOK incel stuff. "A woman walks into a club, of *course* she can sleep with *someone* - she just doesn't find anyone except like one guy attractive." This was an actual thing said by them, and is also EXACTLY Incel Logic 101. They literally reinforced and supported the incel worldview. The end result is it's both depressing and disappointing to listen to the convo as a man. 😐

@@WontonTV I'm puzzled, how is that statement wrong? Women can sleep with anyone at a bar, so long as she finds them attractive. Is there something I'm missing here?

@Wonton, HOW, exactly, do you need or desire it delivered, then?

@Fori, I need to record my own lengthy a/v response to your incredibly *off-the-mark* comment. It is very clear that you have not yourself, nor known anyone else who’s suffered a real relationship with a Dark Triad, Cluster-B or androsupremacist terrorist (Red Pill/Manosphere cultist or gang warrior/soldier).

I was quite disappointed because of this reason also and I do also entirely agree that it needs to be addressed in a non-dismissive way by NM, I don't think it's unfair to have these voices heard

But that’s narcism lol normal People are not that unto themselves or selfish. Whether their a true narcissist is another thing all together. Some people can learn to be better and unselfish and some cannot or rather have a harder time grasping the idea and are true narcissists

a woman (singular) women (plural)

@@obibraxton2232 narcissism

@@heliotropezzz333 gee thanks a typo really invalidates my experience, thank you for your constructive feedback 😊.

@@joshw5559 It's odd that so many people make the same 'typo'. It's so annoying when it's a basic word.

ffs

One👏hun👏dred👏 Thank you for articulating 🤍

@jcorb did... did you even read what I wrote? What is it you think you're saying? Did I not literally say the coercive nature of apps rooted in their functionality exists to get you to pay for their premium services? As in, you get it free with minimal features and when you're sad and frustrated enough, you'll buy the premium functions just to be able to swipe, or message, or see who liked you etc. etc. etc. Anyway, I can only assume you're trolling. So for anyone actually acting in good faith, you have my elaboration.

I agree with nearly all of this, but to take the ‘market’ analogy to its logical conclusion: what does ‘regulation’ here look like? Monogamy? Prohibitions on pre-marital sex? Communally or familially arranged marriages? Punishment for adulterers? Stigmatisation of hyper-promiscuity? These are the tried and tested means pre-modern societies used to prevent a market logic from developing in sexual relations. They’re also all totally illiberal. The problem you’re going to encounter combatting the ‘sexual marketplace’ as a leftist is that your moral values when it comes to ‘personal choices’ are indistinguishable from the values of a staunch capitalist when it comes to everything else; people are happiest when able to pursue their desires, interactions are good if both parties involved consent to them e.t.c. In concrete terms, how can you oppose the market logic of modern dating without butchering an entire herd of leftist sacred cows?

@@satyasyasatyasya5746 The funny thing is that most things are designed this way now, too. The so called Influencers now all trying to get you into their online services or products. I myself this week found myself using an incredible amount of time and energy to gather all the information I needed to put my mom's social house into the website to find an exchange. Elderly and recovering from cancer, we need to move area to be near sibling so we can all care for her and also allow them to be closer and spend quality time before saying their goodbyes at some stage in the future... complete registration of property, complete what we need, search, match, BOOM 💥 pay wall anything from additional information or photos about the property or to attempt to contact the other person that may benefit from a social housing exchange, minimum 3 months. It's only £12 quid, but this is now on top of everything else. I feel that it won't be long before I'll be conned into free air but have to pay for premium air if I want to go outside .... Dating? Nice try. It explains a lot of things. The world feels too crazy to even care about that... who would want to bring a child into this world? Albeit it feels like my calling, I think the guilt of having brought an innocent life to this world would just kill me... 3 options: The bullshit continues, and nothing changes. Climate change accelerates over the next 10 years The current economic system finally breaks, bringing revolution and chaos... am no annihislt, but it seems to me it's a better idea to focus on survival skills than dating sites

@@theamazingautist2363 I think the point that's being made is basically - ditch the apps, get out and meet ppl... Be human.

The point is that fewer men get more women so they have the power.

@@marlonblade007 OK, if that's what they mean that makes sense.

@@marlonblade007 I don't think that Annie here has thought even for 1 second about the majority of men at that party, who are most probably of equal attractiveness as her, but she treats as if they are invisible and inferior.

@@marlonblade007 That's down to women having completely unrealistic standards and expectations.

@@Scrinwaipwr But doesn't it follow that while those FEW men hold the power over the women... by the women's choice, THOSE women ALSO have power over ALL OF THE MEN they dismissed. You literally can't have it both ways :P

They don't mean you bro. Or me. They mean the "there's like one attractive guy in the entire party" when they say "men". Life is wonderful.

I have to admit I'm really glad someone acknowledged this, I realise this was a panel that seemed to be directed from a female perspective, however I definitely feel very under-represented in these kind of talks; whether that's because we as men don't have these talks and that is our responsibility or the case that our voices are seemed as less valuable to certain groups regarding these talks is another thing. However I do feel sad that I haven't seen any talks like this with anyone on the left (god we need an alternative men's debate group so people have an alternative to the Manosphere)

They don't really want a male perspective, it may clash with their stance 😂

"....because they dont have the male perspective." Society has not wanted it for at least 20 years.

@@jrpark05 Right? 😆

Easier to blame men for everything if they are not in the room....

@@Nickelodeon81 They didn't really blame men for everything though.

@@ragebait988 Huh? I didn't mention Tate?

You misunderstand. Women do not want to be with someone they're not attracted to. No one does. It's not that the other men would make bad partners, is that she can not even consider a man a partner if she's not attracted to him. Which isn't really a problem, but women continue to gaslight men and telling them looks aren't important when it's the only thing that matters.

@apricot8301 the only thing that matters? Bud you have it twisted. Look we all find the most shiny bell at the ball the most tantalising, but you're doing yourself in if that's your only standard.

​@apricot8301 I'm not dismissing what you are saying, but that's like if guys were only attracted to Victoria Secret models, and would only consider them for serious relationships 😂😂😂. I can't believe they don't see how outrageous that is/sounds 😂😂😂

If you think she says 'like' a lot you should come hang out in the NE of Scotland! We use it as punctuation :P

​@@queenvagabond8787I might just be sentimental about Aberdeen but I think Like sounds far better in a Doric context 😂

Nationalise Hinge 🤣🤣🤣

I hope this comment is satire

This for me was the key part of the whole conversation. Here's how I see it. She seems to be talking about a woman being pretty and witty to be attractive to the men she's attracted to. Generally I think women are attracted to a man they judge to be on their level or better. If they're not then the man is not even considered. This makes the pool of choice for a woman much smaller. The men in that pool get to pick and choose and can afford to behave quite badly as their's always another woman. Then there are a whole bunch of other men who are really happy when a woman just smiles at them. End result, a lot of unhappy men and women. Just my thoughts and obviously a longer term relationship requires more, but the initial contact hinges in this I believe.

@@kalebdaark100 Isn’t this just the hypergamy argument that incels make, only ever so slightly reworded?

@@guccistreams I certainly hope not, but then I'm not overly familiar with the finer points of incel arguments. To be clear I'm not saying it's any ones fault. But the western world is not quite so ridiculously sexist as it use to be, so women have better choices in life and men are struggling to adjust. If you have a better explanation I'd love to hear it.

​@@kalebdaark100 The idea that a large percentage of women are going for the top 20% (or an otherwise small portion) of available men is the hypergamy argument. Didn't mean to imply you were an incel or anything, it's just interesting that the ladies on the panel seemed to back up that theory. I heard similar things from a lot of my lady friends when I was at uni, so it would appear that there's some level of truth to it.

@@guccistreams Well, at the heart of every daft conspiracy theory there's usually a grain or two of truth.

Well said. These conversations ARE important, but until men's perspectives are ACTUALLY included, and women's biases ACTUALLY examined.... it does nothing. The Andrew Tates of the world remain the only viable place to receive help, because they're the only ones who show results. Like it or not, that "one guy" now has power over all of the women that have discarded other options. If he's a good man, then that's fine. But it's a bit of a gamble. And the likelihood is that men who are IMMEDIATELY perceived positively are simply aware of strategies to attract women. Which means they're FAR more likely to have listened to advice from somebody like Andrew Tate. Fact is, if this were a discussion of body positivity and a man had said the EXACT same thing... there would have been immediate pushback. And honestly, women have so many advantages on this. Feminine identifiers are far more established (how do you even "dress masculine?" A suit? Hardly appropriate for going out, imo) and have more variety AND can be safely abandoned bc men generally don't care THAT much. (don't think my mum has worn a dress since she was a teenager. Even nearing retirement she gets attention from men, and not all of them older. I laugh and joke about it with her, but she doesn't realise that this simply doesn't happen to men. And she's worried about me being single my whole adult life. To her its just a frustration) How often do we hear about women's beauty standards and the mental health issues they cause? How is it NOT worse to describe all but one man as unattractive. Why would that IMMEDIATELY point to the problem being the men, and NOT the woman saying it? As you say, it's not about inviting a man because he's right about everything, but because you REALLY can't have a fair conversation unless "both sides" are represented.

completely agree

Chris Williamson would give another perspective, thats a great suggestion. i'm not entirely convinced everyone wants to hear different perspectives on this issue however.

Maybe they should have invited a man to put forward his perspective, we are women, its impossible for us to view this issue from a man's perspective. Both genders think very differently, that isn't anything that can change, I do agree that there needs to be way more communication between men and women. However, you also miss the point. Why should anyone explain their reasons as to why they find someone attractive or not? To most women, attraction isn't based on choice. Who we find attractive at first glance isn't a conscious thought. We just feel attracted, or we don't. That doesn't mean women go based on attraction alone. There's a reason many women will tell men that personality and how we get along are much higher priority to most women, because we understand that the feeling we get when we see a man we are attracted to is typically based on lust alone, and most of us don't just act upon that and reject any man who doesn't trigger that feeling, if we are looking to date long term, we want someone we like and enjoy time with, my own personal experience is like this, I wasn't immediately attracted to my husband, we were friends for a bit and he made me laugh, and I enjoyed spending time with him, he asked me on a date and I agreed, he is my soul mate and best friend who I love dearly, he isnt what is considered attractive, but I dont care what he looks like, our relationship is what I value, who he is as a person is what I value and I am attracted to who he is, he could look completely different and I would still love him. We choose who we want to date, and we are entitled to be as picky or not as we wish to be, the same as men, some choose looks only others are happy to date if they like the person, we are all different, no one should have to explain why they are attracted to this man but not this, again its aggravating that men like you seem to think we put values on our looks and should someone pair up based on level hence your comment about Anne being "average" at best. That's where many of you go wrong. You all glue yourself to this notion that dating couples have to be on the same level. Sure, some are like that. Most are not. My problem wit this is, surely you want to date someone who actually likes you, and not because they felt sorry for you or thought they had to, to be polite? Because a relationship like that will never work. We cannot turn who we are attracted to off, we have to feel a level of attraction to the person but it is not solely based on looks alone, its the person in general, if there isn't any, then the relationship won't work We should all date who we want to, for whatever reason we want to, some people are shallow, others aren't, some go by attraction based on looks, many choose to get to know them a bit first, if someone only finds one person attractive in a room, what's the problem? Again, do you want women to just date a man they have zero interest in? Because that's the impression I got from your comment, that in your opinion women being picky is a problem, so instead she should date any man that wants to date her? And how would that work exactly?

@@gemmacook1753 women should always do whatever they want, always, totally on board with individual freedom. as long as women are fully informed on the personal consequences (short and long term) to them of having sex with a man who is also having sex with 15-30 other women then its cool, thats what hypergamy is ultimately 1 dude, 20 women if not higher. thats not even getting into the societal consequences of that, which will also hugely affect her. i get it women cant be expected to think societally, i'm on board, individual rights trump that for both men and women. but make no mistake there are societal consequences that will effect both men and women.

@jcorb An "ad hominem" is to disregard a persons argument and attack them personally, which has not been the case. If you want to dispense advice on how to construct an argument, I suggest you familiarise yourself with logical fallacies.

@@Nickelodeon81 have to agree here

They didn't disregard the comments of the panel, they just said it could've done with male input when discussing issues around males. Read the room, you've got this one wrong.

@jcorb In fact they directly addressed thier comments/arguments and made no criticism of the women on this panel personally. Is this hard to understand? Seriously, look up "Logical Fallacies". It might help.

@jcorb Sorry. Another vote for saying you're completely wrong. You've swallowed the wafer-thin idea that men "get too much airtime", so have nothing to contribute. Wrong. If this whole mailaise of assumptions each gender makes continues on, then the whole situation of maintaining relationships won't remedy itself. A good discussion would involve both perspectives. Get real.

why do you just assume these women are women?

@@tulip2084wow you are so clever what an original and hilarious thing to say, do you have any thought about attack helicopters or whimsical riffs on pronouns too? I await your acerbic wit eagerly

Because You Don't want that. You just want to harrase women

@@lewa3910 that is not helpful and a baseless claim. The person is right, that this panel should of had men on it to speak about their experiences/views of dating. It being one sided is not fair or helpful for educating people on the issues for dating. Provide constructive criticism else no one will learn or change

Why do you assime that whichever man they put on the panel would be one you agreed with, or who would put your point of view across?

I'd be pretty proud if I created a whole human being 😂😂😂

it would have been different... not better

Me at 42 As well. Most women rate me as attractive with long blond hair. They still try to exploit me for gift cards and money which I refuse. Is society totally lost and terminal?

Same here. You have to realise that not dating doesn’t diminish your value as a human being. Lots of society wants you to believe that only the pathetic don’t date, but that’s more nonsense. Focus on living the life that fulfils you. If you find someone, it will be because you have a mutual interest in each other. Not because you have internalised that your value is measured by your sex life or dating history.

There is a huge problem here with many man having your experience, and lots of women sharing the few, high status guys.. The statistics bear this out. It's the elephant in the room in this conversation, and these women seemed entirely incurious about it, or unware. It's frustrating viewing to say the least.

@@cheekyboy5000 I'm usually open minded in regards to this sort of thing but at very least I don't think she quite realises the problem with what she's saying

You find confidence & happiness by developing a life outside all of this; women/sex/fucking is just one aspect of life and its important to have a broad range of interests that don't require reliance on others. Try treating sex as hobby instead of seeking to validate your entire identity through a sexual partner.

They don't want to admit that they're all going for the same small % of men who then have an abundance of options and don't want to settle for them. It's easier to have a boogie man to blame - "men" - than actually admitting that they're also part of this problem, which is why these conversations will never change anything

Indeed I was wondering if they would pause to consider what it's like to be one of the other dozen or so men deemed "unattractive" in that situation. Or in fact any of the men who dare not even consider going to that club because they know they don't stand a chance...

She hits the nail. It's something like, there aren't enough men who are good enough for me or my girlfriends. We're all so amazing and we'll only settle for a "high value" man. Why aren't there more high value men? They never stop to question whether their perception of "high value" might actually be the source of problem.

@jcorb For the love of God! Can we please find some middle ground between "state mandate gf" & "most men are unattractive and don't deserve love" As so far all that dichotomy is doing is promoting gender critical ideology and incel icons like Tate.

@jcorb at that point in the conversation the blonde girl is literally describing hypergamy ...... its NOT POSSIBLE biologically for a group of randomly selected women to be so much better looking then a group of randomly selected men. the men and women in that room would likely have similar attractiveness........ but the women of all levels of attractiveness will decide to fixate on the few men far above the women's level of attractiveness. basically a harem scenario.

Nothing will change.

What do you mean happy cheery dating stories? They’ve all felt pain, just not divulging it explicitly

@@RapidBlindfolds played sports my whole life, lots of gym time, probably in much better shape with glutes then ash sarkar. I could spend every night in a nightclub the rest of my life and no woman is coming up to me telling me i have a nice ass to take me home. not happenin. granted she's more attractive facially then me, but i could tell the same story with a woman more in my arena decent facial looks wise. they needed a man on the panel period, just two vastly different world experiences between men and women.

and im not even bitter, the world is what it is..... thats fine..... but the panel needs to reflect that reality..

3 equally attractive men would be almost entirely invisible on dating apps. These women live in a cocoon of privilege of which they seem to have absolutely no awareness.

Thank you Weezer

@Weezer’s The Blue Album, Aye. Although, in my opinion, they would have gotten much further in this discussion if they would have included a progressive, conscious, connected but oppressed (intersectionality-wise), older womxn for a wise balance, which is incredibly necessary now with the Red Pill androsupremacist terrorist gangs/cults gaining ground by the hour.

She is coming from a very spoilt, infantilised perspective. Living in London has made her grow up much later in life. Many people outside London have children young, but they then live different lives, enjoying their 30s and 40s more. In London, people seem to want to defer adulthood for as long as possible, in pursuit of endless pleasure, which is a very capitalistic outlook, ironically for people who consider themselves so rebelliously left wing.

💯❤️

​@@cheekyboy5000if a lefty pursues capitalist ideals, they're actually neo liberal, to be specific.

@@shaunclubberlang2887 yeah I know, but with respect to the content etc

@@shaunclubberlang2887 maybe, but while I’m here in this context, I choose to use it in good faith. It’s important to the people in this space, therefore I’m happy to use it

I identify as a cat. Meow!!! 🤦‍♂️

at that point in the conversation she is literally describing hypergamy ...... its not possible biologically for a group of randomly selected women to be so much better looking then a group of randomly selected men. the men and women in that room would likely have similar attractiveness........ but the women of all levels of attractiveness will decide to fixate on the few men far above the women's level of attractiveness. basically a harem scenario.

Interesting post, what are your thoughts wrt monogamy? In the distant past, perhaps it was normal for females to gravitate towards a small % of successful males, leaving the rest of the males out. Nowadays we live in a one man for one woman world.

We have been a monogamous society for a long time and still are despite some people having open relationships. The issue is that now women are much less likely to be happy to pair up with men who are less attractive. The only way I can really see a situation where all men are satisfied and some are not left as incels is if women give up the workplace and become financially dependent on men again. I'm not saying it's right, I'm just saying it seems to be the only way for there to be more equal pair bonding again

@@jjh2920 'less attractive' isnt the greatest framing. more like women pair bonding with similarly attractive mates to themselves. rather then a harem scenario with a man much more attractive then her. if that makes sense

@@mendoza4789 I think it depends. I believe that at one time an ugly man could certainly get a woman more attractive than him with just having more money and status with more ease than now. It's still possible but probably much harder due to women not needing the money as much.

Ranking is the most human thing to do, this is how we evolved and has been part of us for millions of years. It's going to be hard to overcome this not nice behaviour. Your idea of romance is actually extremely modern and exclusive to a few modern societies. IMHO, it is the best one, though ;)

@@georgewaller7080 I don’t buy into evo psych explanations. How we socialize and bond is historically, socially, and culturally contingent. The commodification of human relationships is a very new phenomenon, and speaking/thinking about potential partners using the terminology and logic of the market is not the same as having standards or preferences. Treating dating like an exchange contextualizes relationships as an arena for competition as to who benefits more, who got the better deal. Healthy relationships are about reciprocity and complementarity, not about maximizing value extraction. We really need to remove market vocabulary and metaphors from the sphere of intimate relationships.

@@countthemoon4956 Ultimately, I agree with you; treating relationships in that way isn't good! However, it doesn't really matter what you buy into, the history and facts are quite clear. Just listen to Ash's intro to this video, relationships were once pretty much only about financial or political gain, in fact that is most likely why marriage exists as a legal engagement.

@@georgewaller7080 I never mentioned marriage. Intimate relationships have always existed, marriage is a legal and/or religious arrangement. The formation of genuine human connections, platonic or otherwise, is a universal and transhistorical phenomenon, the concrete expression of which is contingent, and not universal and transhistorical.

It’s an underlying subconscious mechanism. We do it anyway.

The concept of the left-leaning, masculine man is a void in our current political climate. As long as it remains empty, the right will swoop in and continue to co-opt anything that fills it. We on the left need to wake up.

@@Nickelodeon81 Idk why. We have Eddie Vedder and Keanu Reeves. Are they not masculine? IDK man they always seemed like all man to me and the women of all type seemed to have a thing for them in the 90's. They are still around.

@@Nickelodeon81 I think although the left needs to be less nervous about meshing with existing masculinity (the good parts), we also need to ensure we don't simply decide to co-opt one narrow definition of it (6ft 5, rugged, outdoorsy, but loves a bit of Marxist theory). Because not living up to unattainable archetypes is precisely what drove young men into incel culture to begin with. It needs to be far more pluralised.

@@easytoassemble54321 Sorry but young men driven into incel culture is primarily down to one reason: today's women find them unattractive. Good looking successful men don't become incels due to culture. It's a result of their environment. Even by "moderate" standards, they are being rejected. We need to stop pandering to extremes just to "win the argument". No-one wins in this scenario.

Thank you!!!!

You always haddaway with words Susheel

literally

You'll be driven mad with 'defo' too...

I'm here to absolve you of your guilt. As one of the chosen few you have a duty to enjoy dating on these godforsaken apps and report back. Dont feel guilty, but remember that you are in. a privileged position.

I 100% hear this. Last year my marriage of 10 years ended, in a relationship for 16. Everything has completely changed since I last swam in these waters. I'm not a sociable person so have embraced dating apps as a way of meeting people and kick-starting the conversation as my written game is far more confident than verbal, especially early on, before meeting up in person. In saying that though, the ghosting and quick rejection can be exhausting and upsetting. I've also had to deal with the guilt of seeing multiple people at the same time. The way I've helped get through it is maintaining a process of chatting to friendship to something more and made that pretty clear. That process also helps that people have been pre-sorted before matching since they won't like if they're not onboard with that.

Thank you for sharing your experiences. Wishing you all the best :)

Protect this man at all costs

As a dude I agree. Men are massively under represented because we are naturally less expressive. Also these girls have no wrinkles.

@@patmaloney5735 under represented… ok.

@Huw Zebediah Thomas if so, great but I don't think this was meant to be a series

@@wintergirll every single dating column on every news site in this country is written by a woman.

Hi Mark. I don't see anything wrong with what you said. Of course you can enjoy the company of someone you just met. You just cannot trust someone you just met. I think that woman maybe had some bad experiences so she on extra offensive. Or something else wrong. Definitely nothing wrong with what you said. Keep doing what you are doing. You are good.

You are being too harsh on yourself it was just your bad luck that you met a narcissist. Forget about her and go on to the next woman.

Sorry you've had those experiences in your relationships, it's really sad that women have been taught to feel this way and misses such a basic humanity in men. Definitely something that as a society we need to reframe, it is harmful to all of us regardless of gender. For anyone interested, a good book that dispels cultural myths around desire and libido is Mind the Gap by Dr Karen Gurney, it is primarily focused on women's sexuality (as it's so often treated as a problem when women have no or little desire while ignoring why) but also discusses how any nuance in men's "sex drive" as if it is not affected by any external factors (i.e. not being in the mood, stress, emotional reasons) goes completely unacknowledged.

one of the recurring things for me, is the feeling that this is such a missed opportunity, this conversation. these women are fine to talk about their experiences, good luck to them, but it teases us with the idea that men's experiences and feelings will be address, then just moves on. The women here seem entirely incurious about how men feel and the male experience, beyond the highly desirable men they are competing for.

she is literally describing hypergamy ...... its not possible biologically for a group of randomly selected women to be so much better looking then a group of randomly selected men. the men and women in that room would likely have similar attractiveness........ but the women of all levels of attractiveness will decide to fixate on the few men far above the women's level of attractiveness. basically a harem scenario.

@@mendoza4789 I’m sure it’s because these people are only around other people who share 99% of their world view. “I read Marx and what I took from it was all the men I see are physically emotionally and intellectually below me” 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣 incredible

Hmm hmmmm hmmm yeah yeah hmmm yeah yeah I agree hmm yeah hmm hmmm that’s the most amazing point yeah hmmm yeah yeah hmmmm

Deh-du-deh

Am now on second bottle 🍾

Listening to these women spill their neuroses over the course of an hour is one of the best advertisements for singledom I’ve ever seen! It might well feel that society ostracises you (it does to me too) but when you see that society is made up of couples who don’t like each other and tolerate each other just for the sake of the kids/being able to afford a house you start to wonder who really is it who is on the outside looking in

This is funny in a tragic soet of way because technically I am on the lookout for a person like you, and I just can't find one. And I find that men in their youth (30 would apply) just do not approach or engage, and probably because of the reasons you just mentioned. All I can ask is to keep trying because there are people out there that will say yes. And also, yeah; f+×÷ Andrew Tate...

" because I'm scared I might become the source of someone's trauma," that is an excuse. talk say your intent just don't be cray. not a big problem

I think a lot of men suffer from this kind of mentality. I definitely had some version of it before I started working on myself. The first step to curing it is understanding that this is you making excuses, women and feminism aren’t actually asking you to supress your sexuality in this way.

besides the women and feminism bit, good advise.

Dude just grow a pair and keep trying. Not every girl is going to like you. So what. The more you try the better you become at dealing with it.

@jcorb ❤ U Jez