We LOST BIG at Barrett Jackson - Selling the Chevy 454 SS

We LOST BIG at Barrett Jackson - Selling the Chevy 454 SS - OBS Big Block Finale

Рет қаралды 39,653

3 ай бұрын

Today is the day we finally say goodbye to our OBS Chevy 454SS shop truck. This big block Chevy has been a good go-fast parts picker-upper for the last 6 months, but it's time to make room for some other projects.
For those of you who haven't seen the build series (you should go watch it if you haven't), we tore just about everything off this OBS except the cab. We yanked the motor out, rebuilt the entire top end and threw in an upgraded camshaft to get us a few extra horses. We put on a set of performance headers and modified a Hooker exhaust so this thing would sound mean screaming down the road. We also installed a full QA1 suspension, Wilwood 6 piston brakes, a new driveshaft and rear diff, and put on some BC Forged billet wheels to round out the exterior. Inside we hooked up a Restomod AC system, threw some new carpet down, installed a new dash and gauges, and even tossed in an upgraded bluetooth sound system.
As awesome as this 454SS is with all the upgrades, it's just time to move on to bigger and better things. So we're loading her up onto the trailer and bringing her out to the Barret Jackson auctions at the West Palm Beach South Florida Fair grounds. And that might have been our biggest mistake yet!
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Make sure to help support the channel and grab yourself some S2S merch here!
www.salvagetosave.com
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Check out all the other crazy builds we have going on around the shop!
The Godzilla Swapped Lincoln Continental
kzfaq.info/get/bejne/ba2pldhn2MyRnH0.html
The Twin Turbo LSX Chevelle
kzfaq.info/get/bejne/jrp7Z6hemcXecqM.html
The Supercharged LS C10
kzfaq.info/get/bejne/pLF4hqybqrbKeXk.html

Пікірлер: 275

@thescottishhammer7570 3 ай бұрын

Never underestimate the value of a good paint job. That patina only appeals to a very small audience, and the people spending big money at a BJ auction typically aren't those people.

@54inches 3 ай бұрын

Agreed 100%. On top of that, 99% of patina people do NOT want a shiny patina.

@siksixchevy1636 3 ай бұрын

I agree if your gonna spend some good money on a BJ she better be pretty

@davemurphy63C10 2 ай бұрын

I sold a patina '63 C10 for 130k...

@thescottishhammer7570 2 ай бұрын

@@davemurphy63C10 I'm not saying they aren't worth anything to anyone. I just said the buying market is a lot smaller. Some people LOVE the patina look. The guy who bought your truck evidently loved it. The buyers at that BJ auction clearly didn't.

@cooperparts 2 ай бұрын

@@thescottishhammer7570 I have money and I don’t buy high dollar cars that need paint the truck did not look valuable and it showed in the price

@McTwistedTwisties 3 ай бұрын

I hate to say it, but you have to know your audience with Barret Jackson. Cars that sell high are fully restored & resto-modded. While the clear patina might be cool with hot rodders, if you had fully painted the truck and applied new graphics, I think it would have been a $60k truck easy.

@DaBaltimoron 3 ай бұрын

I don't think the patina look works on a truck this "new".

@Samuel_Cantu 3 ай бұрын

A nice black paint job would bring a lot more money i think

@MullinPerformance 3 ай бұрын

I was more shocked this wasn't a give away truck. Take a page from Heavy D and Cleeter and do the $5 entry merch grab.

@slappymcphee 3 ай бұрын

I highly doubt that they would have gotten over 30k in entries selling merch for it

@MullinPerformance 3 ай бұрын

@@slappymcphee I think you would be shocked how much those give aways bring in.

@PEDR0SKI 3 ай бұрын

@@slappymcpheethe" journey hq" is doing a giveaway-Obs truck+70k JhQ have under 30k subs while S2S has over 200k subs... s2s would have easily made over 50k

@muffpipe84 2 ай бұрын

@@slappymcpheesometimes the giveaway vehicles also bring in more viewers. Hell I just watched Cleetus give a turbo away to a guy in Australia who bought an air freshener..... clearly the giveaways work as they are intended

@tbranscom1 3 ай бұрын

Yikes, Thats a shame. i didnt think the truck would get anywhere near 90, but i figured around the 50 mark anyway. The paintjob killed it for that crowd, and the price range that truck deserved, patina may be the cool trend with the younger crowd, but when you want to get in the deep pockets nothing beats that slick glass shine of a show quality paint job.

@holmeshotrodsandcycles3195 3 ай бұрын

You were too deep in it at $20k before even doing the other stuff. And for almoat $100k, at least the people that can spend that, they want paint

@SalvagetoSavage 3 ай бұрын

If you can find a numbers matching, running, and rust free 454ss for under $20k right now; you struck gold. We've also sold multiple 6 figure trucks with weathered patina paint (per the customer's request). Just because you wouldn't spend the money on it, doesn't mean someone else won't!

@holmeshotrodsandcycles3195 3 ай бұрын

@SalvagetoSavage there's always someone who "could" spend the money, of course. They just weren't on Marketplace or Barret Jackson, apparently. The "Patina" deal is up to the owner and their request, like you said. It's just a harder sell when you do it on your behalf, and just hope someone with $100k shows up and has to have it. Dont take it the wrong way, I like the truck and the build. I just feel it was hoping for a little too much and this time it turned out true

@ahberlowkz852 3 ай бұрын

Let's be honest. Patina just means you didn't paint the truck.

@IR-nq4qv 3 ай бұрын

Who exactly is "They" ? Lots of people want a top end daily driver that is not trailered around or turned into a garage queen. Lots of guys who can afford it want to drive something without having to worry about dings, paint chips and road rash. Lots of people pass on vehicles just because they don't like the color or the interior. Lots of people have bought expensive cars and trucks and have them painted again to their own liking.. You sound like you are just trolling, you're speaking from personal taste not a public opinion poll. More to the point, if someone can afford a high end truck, they can also look at it as a blank slate and have it painted their own favorite custom color or wrapped anyway they want it

@HAMMER_2.2 3 ай бұрын

@@ahberlowkz852 yup

@stevedyndiuk99 3 ай бұрын

Someone got a heck of a deal sorry for your loss dude 😂

@SalvagetoSavage 3 ай бұрын

It's all good! We'll put that money towards a new build!

@tbranscom1 3 ай бұрын

Hey, at least you got a group of badass videos out of the truck, that has its value for sure. Keep at it and keep doing the great work!

@aaronashley815 3 ай бұрын

Exactly why we avoiding Selling at Barrett This year, truck market is through the floor currently, sucks man

@SalvagetoSavage 3 ай бұрын

It is what it is unfortunately! But we live and we learn!

@notime2d8 3 ай бұрын

Yooo, I could've gotten that. 😮 Somebody was super happy that day.

@SalvagetoSavage 3 ай бұрын

We wish you did get it! We would have loved to have someone that watches the channel get their hands on this thing!

@danielw2229 3 ай бұрын

Y’all do incredible work! Truck was awesome and it’s a shame it didn’t bring a bigger number. Someone got a steal of a deal and I hope you guys make it back up in views of this video! Keep the content coming dude and thanks for what you do!

@TrevorAngell 3 ай бұрын

Hell of a truck. Really loved watching the build.

@SalvagetoSavage 3 ай бұрын

Glad you enjoyed it! We already miss this truck!

@jesusgutierrez6702 3 ай бұрын

that lucky bastard, sorry brother I wanted more for you

@6538970 2 ай бұрын

Finally a vid that reveals what you have in it and what you got out of it, outstanding, please take note Dennis Collins

@SalvagetoSavage 2 ай бұрын

We try out best to keep it real with y'al!

@3WindowDeuce 3 ай бұрын

First off, very cool truck! - Now the but - unfortunately, I feel it was right on the money especially after buyer fees because of the lack of paint. Patina is cool, but the big $ sales are painted finished vehicles. The extra step of paint and body probably would've cost you as much as the extra money it would've sold for, so it was probably sixes in the end. Like you said, you got to experience Barret Jackson, next time you can take it to Mecum with a reserve.

@BrainsofFrank 3 ай бұрын

Man I'm sad by the truck's departure from the channel. If I had the coin to buy it I totally would've and it would've been an awesome truck running around my used to be small town

@bazilwreckerloughead 3 ай бұрын

Bitter sweet, nice truck, worth WAY more then what it sold for, but like Mikey said; $ for the next build, can't wait!

@michiganracer1181 3 ай бұрын

It was a great project, you guys did a nice job on it, I imagine it’s a tough road to get labor back out of a shop project. I’d need the whole bottle before sending a vehicle through a no reserve auction, water under the bridge now. As long as I learned something I’ve never considered it wasted effort or money spent. Rock on guys! 👊

@SalvagetoSavage 3 ай бұрын

We got too many projects around here to sit and dwell on one bad move! All we can do is get back up and move on to the next one

@chaching713 3 ай бұрын

Sorry you guys didn’t have a great experience but I hope you guys build another obs I really liked that truck and that’s when I started to consistently watch the channel every week!

@SalvagetoSavage 3 ай бұрын

We definitely will. It just won't be going to an auction this time! lol

@scottmortland7255 3 ай бұрын

Dude. Huge fan of you guys, and your work. Look forward to every video. But I’ve always thought this truck should’ve been painted. I’m not the biggest fan of patina, but I do realize some are and it has its place. Personally, I think that place is 80-year-old farm trucks, not 90’s GM s****y primer missing paint trucks. That said, I will continue to look forward to every Wednesday after work to watch your videos, and see what cool stuff is next. That’s the cool thing about car culture: we can appreciate great cars whether it’s our style or not. 😊

@SalvagetoSavage 3 ай бұрын

If we take another one to auction, it will definitely get painted. But I think we'll stick to private sales and patina! It's what gets us up in the morning lol Thank you for all the support. It means a whole lot to us here!

@thisguy3322 3 ай бұрын

Dang, got hosed on that one. Someone came up on the grab. That truck was dope.

@casanovasprojectcars Ай бұрын

Such a nice build a shame you had to take that loss. Recently got a Black 1990 Sport Wich I plan on clearcoating the patina like y’all did 🤙🏻

@98saleen 3 ай бұрын

That's brutal! Beautiful and rare truck.

@KirkVSSpock 3 ай бұрын

I feel bad for you, that truck deserved way more. At least someone made an awesome deal !

@SalvagetoSavage 3 ай бұрын

Hopefully they'll enjoy it as much as we did!

@DrGearHeadSS 3 ай бұрын

Everybody has different tastes. Which makes it hard to get out what you put in, unless it is exactly what a person is looking for. Unfortunately they weren't at that auction. But you guys do great work. You could try reaching out to other big car and truck channels on KZfaq to feature a build you guys did. They get content and you cast a wider net for buyers, future customers and subscribers.

@davidrose2382 3 ай бұрын

Thats a Richard Rawlings,move right there😅

@timmaw9559 3 ай бұрын

Wow that really sucked! Keep up the good work.🤟

@SalvagetoSavage 3 ай бұрын

All we can do is brush it off and move on!

@Siyadlams 3 ай бұрын

Ouch! More opportunities will come your way boys. Mickey, you are a year older than me. I was born in Feb of 78.

@quick455 3 ай бұрын

Truck market at Barret has hit it's bubble. Guys like Hogan flooded it with high end builds and then every Tom/Dick/Harry thought they had diamonds and tried to follow suit with junk builds. We broke even in Scottsdale at the beginning of the year with a very high end build but we were expecting a lot more, but we did well at Palm Beach with lower dollar builds. Going back to Scottsdale in October with some more lower dollar builds to see how they do. The Carfax damage report in the listing no matter how minor hurt you, and 648 was earlier in the day on Super Saturday so that hurt as well. There also wasn't a lot of money getting tossed around in PB unless it was on hero cars this time around too.

@user-wb2fr3ok4g 3 ай бұрын

The buyer still needs to paint it. I'm sure he would have factored that into the bid. Given the condition of the paint, I think you did extremely well.

@BT_aka_PET_ROOSTER 3 ай бұрын

Tough break… 😬

@itzyamancam8561 Ай бұрын

That beautiful 454 for $29k? That’s robbery

@BulletmotorsportsInc 3 ай бұрын

I felt that one.

@kevinhathaway7240 3 ай бұрын

You guys deserved a lot more for that truck; but it will pay off. There will be a lot of business earned off that sale!

@SalvagetoSavage 3 ай бұрын

All we can do is take the money we got and build something better! Thank you for all the support!

@SolveFixBuild 3 ай бұрын

I love this truck. It’s perfect.

@SalvagetoSavage 3 ай бұрын

Thank you!

@lowtidecustoms1166 3 ай бұрын

That's a dang shame!! Live and learn man.... someone got a sick a$$ deal on a killer truck!

@ImpalaSS08 2 ай бұрын

Ain’t gonna lie, it brought just what I personally thought it was worth. $30k with that paint job was the most I thought it would bring.

@mattmccams 3 ай бұрын

Damn! Project that got me subscribed

@SalvagetoSavage 3 ай бұрын

We'll get another one soon! Don't worry!

@champ18d 3 ай бұрын

The music at the hammer got me lol

@lordmugglestone Ай бұрын

saw that coming...not without new paint to hide the rust. clear coat on bare metal and primer don't cut it at Barret Jackson.

@9thgatedim273 3 ай бұрын

Wish the best at BJ If u see 45k that would be a blessing learning lessons as a shop don't go so deep then try to auction off the vehicle

@beetlebuilder5882 3 ай бұрын

I bought a 97 Silverado 2 years ago. I pulled the 305 out and put in a 6.0 LS that I cammed and turbo charged. I swapped the 4L60e for a manual transmission. I converted it to shortbed and installed a 4 link suspension with coilovers. I hate to think how much time I had in that truck. The truck was driveable and really ripped but it needed a lot of odds and ends to finish. I wanted to finish it but I got fed up with getting a load of crap from the wife every time that I worked on it. I finally had enough and sold it as is. I lost over $3500 on a truck that I should have made money on. Not to mention all the work for nothing. That was very painful. I don't have much desire now to build another vehicle.

@Truckingforlife323 3 ай бұрын

Daaaaam i can’t believe it😢, i love that build a lot, im almost done with my 90 454 ss, i bought it for 10k but salvage plus in a very bad shape, since it has a salvage title…im making it widebody and will not look like any other 454’s out there, i know it will lose value but it already did with the salvage title that’s why i don’t care if i ever sell it when its complete will be someone who really wants to buy it how it is, that guy who bought yours he got a really good deal and probably if he ends up repainting it and re-sell it for sure will get back his money plus a lil more.

@stevecoxiscool 3 ай бұрын

It's ok bro. I am still sitting on my 94 6 banger Cheyanne OBS till people start liking these trucks more. Write it off for 100K is what I say.

@SalvagetoSavage 3 ай бұрын

It's all a game of patience right now with the OBS trucks! It'll definitely pay off in the end

@adoksym 3 ай бұрын

My condolences! This was a big L indeed. As long as this doesn't ruin you, I am pretty positive you will recover from it and entertain us with more of your excellent work! Since many youtubers rebuild wrecked cars: could you see yourselves doing something like that and then sell them for a quick buckaroo?

@SalvagetoSavage 3 ай бұрын

It definitely doesn't feel good but it's not the end of the world! We could fix wrecked cars/trucks. But we really love what we do, but I think we'll stick to doing our restomod builds. We have small projects that roll in that don't get filmed that help fund some of the bigger projects!

@billybike57 3 ай бұрын

Sorry to see you loose money 💴 on that truck , it was one fine truck!😢

@SalvagetoSavage 3 ай бұрын

We'll just have to build another one to make up for it!

@stevenford2889 3 ай бұрын

Sorry brother, most people don’t understand the hard work they just see a truck. You guys will get it next time

@suprmn1978 3 ай бұрын

I’m a c-10 guy and see guys call these c-10’s all the time on the facebook pages. I can call a nice obs when I see it but I just don’t see that kind of value in those yet. There’s a price for everyone I know but damn. I’d love to just walk around there.

@scotthall4654 3 ай бұрын

Sorry to see this! Someone got a whole lotta truck for that $. That’s why I like the Mecum auctions because they lay you out a reserve on your stuff.

@no_lft_shft 3 ай бұрын

Good I love this truck man.

@SalvagetoSavage 3 ай бұрын

You and me both!

@djbillbass2095 3 ай бұрын

Tough one, I love watching BJ and Mecum auctions, but I regularly see stuff that sells for way less, AND way more than what it seems like the fair market value is. It's so dependent on who's watching that auction at that moment. When you sit on something, and wait it out until the right buyer comes along you're likely to pull in better numbers, (not to mention all the auction fees). Some people just wanna offload the car and start a new project and some people treat those auctions like a camping trip. For someone trying to recoup their money on a build, it's like playing roulette. Better luck next time.

@360VRStudios 3 ай бұрын

should of added some inspiration from Foose. Make it look pretty to attract the buyers.

@IR-nq4qv 3 ай бұрын

I feel your pain brother. I spent 6 figures on a rare rust free 61 Ford, 5 yr impeccable /flawless build top to bottom , when it came time to auction , I got soaked for less than half. It's sad fact but true that you can always buy cheaper than you can build it for. Your truck should have been staged at the right time of day, mid week for the right target audience..

@SalvagetoSavage 3 ай бұрын

With older trucks and custom work, you really have to do private sale to find a person who appreciates the work that went into it

@mbtwchannel 2 ай бұрын

looks like the patina and mixed body panel paint look is over, time to put money into nice paint jobs!

@Coyote9smilespergallon 2 ай бұрын

My Freeking Dream truck!!

@shanethompson7543 3 ай бұрын

That really sucks.. It's a beautiful truck!!

@SalvagetoSavage 3 ай бұрын

It hurts a bit!

@user-tk3xj8ww2d 3 ай бұрын

Good job good job.👏😀

@SalvagetoSavage 3 ай бұрын

Thank you! 😃

@sn95_mustang_garage 3 ай бұрын

Did you ever bring it to Packy's? I know you took the lowered truck and did a burnout in front that rumbled my chest. Just don't remember the 454 truck there. West Boca has some money to spend.

@SalvagetoSavage 3 ай бұрын

I think we did once, right after we finished it!

@hedrives 3 ай бұрын

Brutal result. Onward.

@SalvagetoSavage 3 ай бұрын

and hopefully upward!

@daexion 3 ай бұрын

It'd be cool just to walk around Barrett Jackson.

@SalvagetoSavage 3 ай бұрын

They got a few around the country! Might be one close to you!

@gerhardlehner8236 3 ай бұрын

Somebody make a hell of a deal and got an awesome truck for a steal!! Hope he preciate it!!

@lamboferruccio 3 ай бұрын

Man my heart sank seeing this, at the end of the day folks care more about aesthetics than function, the truck having all the right bits under it doesn’t matter to these people and that is the world we live in, I hate it but it’s fact!

@andrewmc679 3 ай бұрын

80 90k truck in Australia, keep that in mind

@SalvagetoSavage 3 ай бұрын

We might have to take a trip over there some time soon!

@jefferymaxfield7826 2 ай бұрын

You have class and are a good sport my friend! One might have been bitter and bad mouthed BJ. Sorry you lost bucks

@SalvagetoSavage 2 ай бұрын

It's part of the game. We took a risk, we lost, and we learned! Gotta dust it off and move on!

@brentbeiler7051 3 ай бұрын

Everything is a dumpster fire these days! I’m sure you’ll be seeing some clients from the Barrett auction.

@kevinhathaway7240 3 ай бұрын

That 454 was making about 400hp where the rubber burns. Can you put down 300hp with a 350? I've got a 1994 C1500 extended cab long box with a sbc. Original engine, original transmission. Original TBI. Its a family hand-me down. Would like to refresh it, but not sure whether to go stock or stock +

@SalvagetoSavage 3 ай бұрын

Anything's possible with the right parts and time! (well almost anything)

@d9daprogrammer 3 ай бұрын

I would have taking my chances with Marketplace or bring a trailer, sheesh they got a steal.

@davidhyson9910 3 ай бұрын

Ya those lowballers on Marketplace look good now. It's an auction. Books have been written about how to win big at BJA. They are one page long.

@davefriessen9897 3 ай бұрын

Ooofff Mikey i wanna cry 😭

@atpmonstergarage 3 ай бұрын

I think it’s the wrong truck and wrong era to do a patina build hoping for high dollars. Could have donated it to whistlin diesel for a shout out and probably made more

@garylamb4777 3 ай бұрын

Sad Day and a learning experience for sure. Can't win em all

@SalvagetoSavage 3 ай бұрын

It was a rough learning experience! hahaha But at least we have some cash in the bank to put into other projects and make up for that loss down the road!

@Thefabforums 3 ай бұрын

How bad did they hit you on fees?

@tbranscom1 3 ай бұрын

Most auctions will charge 8-10% im pretty sure BJ is close to double that.

@dlrautomotive788 2 ай бұрын

29K is not a bad selling price. If the new owner invest in new paint it probably will command around 50K. Remember these trucks are not that rare and a lot still exist in great condition because people kept them as play toys and as a collectible. 29K is good based on mileage and needing paint. Nice truck I like it.

@ksdxx1 3 ай бұрын

Whatever happened to the turbo DeLorean? I really wanted to see it shake down and so forth.

@The_TOMMYRAZOR 3 ай бұрын

It left with its owner awhile back

@fabianss357 3 ай бұрын

Sucks that it sold that low, its all about time and day placement at barret. Looks like it had a lot of cool trucks and i think you were on the mark at 50k. Someone got a hell of a good deal on it tho and hopefully drives it. I would hate to think someone bought it just to sit in a showroom somewhere.

@SalvagetoSavage 3 ай бұрын

We definitely should have tried to do a private sale a for bit longer!

@SaneCayne 3 ай бұрын

As a guy that LOVES patina, I have a hard time with "patina" on 1990s vehicles. 90s just doesn't feel old enough to have real, "earned" patina. They've only got it b/c of the crap paint processes the OEs started using back then. Not because it hauled wood up and down a logging trail, or did duty on construction sites for 10 years. Patina only looks and feels right on '80s and older rides.

@ijsk7930 3 ай бұрын

The cowl was like that on all the early models.

@matthewprang2141 3 ай бұрын

29k for a S2S build?!? Man, I’m sick for you!

@SalvagetoSavage 3 ай бұрын

Tell me about it! lol

@dc1usn 3 ай бұрын

Ouch

@dnartrebtrebor803 3 ай бұрын

The new owner will have a nice paint job done and resale the truck for double what he purchased it for.

@bgsound2721 3 ай бұрын

🧨 Please, please, please let the viewers get first choice or a 2 to 4 week heads up next time.

@SalvagetoSavage 3 ай бұрын

We posted it for sale on our IG for about a month or two!

@davidrose2382 3 ай бұрын

Just buy it back yourself pay the fee,paint it,oh well,NEVER SELL AT NO RESERVE AUCTIONS😅

@SalvagetoSavage 3 ай бұрын

Yeah that will be the last time doing no reserve for sure!

@djgrahamiv 3 ай бұрын

Ouch!!!

@SubToTripleThreatRC 3 ай бұрын

I would be gutted. Not sure that BJ told a story about the truck being Ready to Run and that it didn't need a boat load of cash to complete it. Live and learn.

@Murminator660 3 ай бұрын

73-80 the cowl is build into the hood 81-87 it is separate.

@khass110 3 ай бұрын

You mentioned you've "seen that a few times" regarding the cowl vents being integrated into the hood on the Boogie Nights C-10. That's not custom. That's bone stock for all 1G square body hoods.

@CrankAddict 3 ай бұрын

yep. My '73 K5 has the same hood and my '86 Burb had the separate cowl.

@SalvagetoSavage 3 ай бұрын

You’re totally right! I told Mikey he doesn’t know everything like he thinks 🤣

@4ME2DRV 2 ай бұрын

Patina is badass on a C10, but not a 90's ride. Give it another 20 years, then maybe so.

@SalvagetoSavage 2 ай бұрын

Chevy shoulda been putting better paint on their old 454's!

@4ME2DRV 2 ай бұрын

@@SalvagetoSavage I just mean the patina look itself.

@dski8097 3 ай бұрын

All that paint work and you leave it rusty looking, what did you expect?

@Clappedoutprojects 3 ай бұрын

These you tube builds end up like Cookie Monster that yeah buddy bought you need to rebuild them when you buy them 😂

@williamguillIII 3 ай бұрын

You win some, you lose some. At B-J, you better bring your A-Game, be very well known helps and have a show quality car.

@wrspillman1 3 ай бұрын

It would have done a lot better if it was painted. That truck isn't nearly old enough to pull off that look.

@bvandme 3 ай бұрын

Thats disappointing for sure as Im building one right now, but I will for sure keep it under 35K !!!!!!!!! Sorry for your loss, someone got a hellofa buy

@bigmikes2140 3 ай бұрын

I would bet 20k that 5k in paint would of got you to the 50,000 number. Patina paint if finally dying hopefully. That’s a hard it to take losses are never easy 2,000 or 20,000 it always sucks