Thank goodness I figured this out last month

I find this so hilarious because I've been trying to tell guitarist for years but they wouldn't listen to me, I was fortunate because I had been hardcore learning production for 2 years so when I went to modelers and digital I had NONE of the problems other guitarists were having, If guitarists had read 1PDF about producing they would have known that you can't treat a The same way you treat a microphone, Turning up the preamp on the interface just takes away from the transients that the amp sim is trying to put on the signal, I purposefully bought an interface that has 2 extra inputs on the back with no preamp, I can't believe that guitar community at large was so lazy and learning production that this was a problem for almost everyone😂😂😂

@@DangleSan Heya, just wondering what resources you personally recommend for learning these things.

@@gscottanthony7483 I would recommend just start learning about sound production in the digital space,I was reading so many PDFs about how to produce and how to mix, So I understood that parameters in the digital space are much more pronounced and that it's generally a bad idea to crank anything to the max, Also in this part sucks and guitarist are really bad at this but read the manual for the Plug in or modeler you're about to use when I got my Fractal I download the PDF and read it before I even plugged it in, So I understood why some values go from 1-1.000 or 0-5.00 instead of 0-10, Most plugins and modelers now trying to be more guitar friendly with interfaces that goes 0-10 but best believe in the digital space they're still going to a 0-1.000 I.E Even though that plugin has a pedal that looks like a tube screamer don't crank the distortion up to 10, Also another thing to do would be to buy an audio interface that Extra inputs without the Mic preamp levels, So when I plug in my guitar turn up the volume on it that's the volume you get, Or if you plug in a modeler whatever volume the modeler is set to is what you get

I agree with this approach. As i dont have an analogue mixer, could I not use a multimeter to measure the voltage of the pink noise out of an output of an audio interface and adjust the levels until i get .775v? Then i could feed that back into a high Z inout until i get -18dbfs?

Very thorough. Thanks!!

and as long as your meters are true. The BBC way and EBU are cool.

Amazing job getting all those gain stages in a database. I've been loving amp sims for a few years since I realised that lower input gain gives me much better tones, and it's fun to play with how that works, even outside of how the amp is supposed to sound. I think I probably set mine lower than it's supposed to be (especially if I'm stacking guitar tracks), with the guitar volume also backed off more than I might in a live setting and really enjoy the way the virtual amp responds to that.

Appreciate you helping people learn to get better tones, but I’m kind of curious what is the need for the database? Wouldn’t it be simpler to just focus on the level that you’re hitting the amp sim plug-in at? If that should be a guitar signal that peaks at, say, -13dbfs then it doesn’t really matter what level your preamp was set to you can just use a utility plug-in or the input knob on the neural dsp plug-in to lower it back down.

@@Danny-jv3xo if you know the exact amount to back down in, yeah you can do it that way. Most interfaces with gain at 0 produce a signal that is a good level already, and it’s easy to get back to that same point without having to remeasured or recalibrate. The specs usually provide the information with gain at 0, and if it’s roughly 12dBu it’s hot enough that humbuckers will be close to clipping

Good work, Ed! Impedance Matching of the inputs/outputs is another factor, due to its effect as a subtle filter, as well as Level Shifting. Note that Rhett's tone changed when he put the fuzz pedal inline to both the real amp and the sim, as well as his level shifted up for the sim - the pedal output has a different (usually much lower) Impedance than the guitar's output. Cheers!

Is he still going into the Hi-Z input after the fuzz pedal? At that point, after the fuzz (or any pedal) shouldn’t you go into the line in?

If guitarists would spend more time researching how does DAWs and production works the community wouldn't have had this problem, Boosting the signal with the interface preamp just messes with the transience that the plugin is trying to put on The Sound, u boost output NOT input, I had a friend who had a fractal unit you always used to complain that he had to re adjust his patches when he went live, I saved him hours of time when I came to his home studio 1 day to discover he had his fractal plugged into the Mike triams with them cranked at 12 o'clock, I have an interface that has 2 inputs on the back that don't have Mic preamps I plug my fractal into that so the tone I dial in in my room is the same I get on stage

So I should set the input volume on my sound interface all the way down and then raise the input volume on the plugin instead? Thanks

@@RenoFriends Start with preamp all the way down and input at zero - then adjust to make sure you have enough signal. Lot of factors involved. With Neural DSP plug-ins they are much better with interface gain at zero but Positive Grid plug-in needs some gain from the interface for example.

@@johnplunkett2004 Thanks for the reply man. I will then try to set my input level on my Motu interface to 0 and raise the input level on Neurals plugin if I understand it correctly

Bro please tell me what this video recommend us. The video is too long

@@Abc-nz2yi dial back input gain on interface, as Neural DSP compensates for this natively.

@@brettsnowball thanks 🙏

So experiment and turn knobs n stuff

@@kodykindhart5644 I did experiment and turn knobs and stuff. That produced a range of results but didn't produce a clear and unified solution. Plus, I only own one classic amp. So I can compare only that one and maybe figure out what to do in comparison for similar results. Most people using amp sims don't own a tube amp to compare even, so they're shooting blindly. Plus, even IF you have a tube amp to compare to set up the gain that it matches the original, technically you would have to mic it up and mic it up correctly with one of the mics used in the amp sim to get a comparable result, otherwise you're comparing your ear to a microphone. And THEN figure out the gain difference at the input stage. Fun.

That's good news btw, I'm planning to use neural DSP and my mixer preamp is the weakest thing in my whole setup (Behringer 2 channel). I should really upgrade lol.

Please explain?

@orModanica The preamp of the audio interfaces are not designed to emulate a AMP input. They are optimised to Analog to digital conversion. By gain-staging i mean: optimising the signal input gain so its not so low so that is not close to noise floor, neither too high to saturate or clip the converters of the interface. This will ensure the best audio quality to everything you record (from mics, to instruments) So, if you want to optimise the input gain for the amp sim, with proper prior gain-stagin, you should rollback the input gain of the plugin accordingly to the output of you instrument. In example: i tend to use -10Dbfs for HIGH output guitars or -16Dbfs or less for vintage output guitars The thing is, everyone is crrazy for this topic because no one really realized that is harder to fine tune the gain of an AMP sim if the input is too hot. Specially of you are one of the "edge of break-up" guys. If you ever tried STL tones plugins, you will notice that they have a "proper amp input" optimizer tool", that turns down the gain accordly to the play AND type of output of your guitar.

@@blacksaona thx man! Do you think if amp sim makers published the reference signal level they designed their plugins around it would help take out the guess work? Or are you more in the trust your ears camp?

@@ImpostorModanica i think it is more important for the low gain amp sims. The edge of breakup its a sensible and important point because it affects how we perform. If it has a bad setup, we will get frustrated for sounding like we want and thats why most oldschoolers prefer real amps

I've spent few hours to tweak tonex software sound exactly as tonex pedal. First of all - use internal tonex software demos (in dropdown with play on it) to hear how tonex _meant_ to sound with this exact preset/model (use IK original model for sure). Now you have reference how guitar plugged in PC has to sound. Plug your guitar and turn input gain on interface until it will sound similar (mostly in gain). Remember your gain position. Forget about this video for now. Usually you need your guitar at -12.2--12.5dB (true peak) on meter. Broadcast standard and tonex software definitely counts on this. Now plug your guitar in tonex PEDAL with the same model and adjust your INPUT TRIM in tonex Global settings until your guitar will sound the same. You may use your tonex software demos as a reference while you're doing this. I have my audio interface output plugged into line-in of my amp along with tonex pedal (in power-amp input), so I'm listening tonex software and tonex pedal over the same exact speaker with the same settings. Your answer is in INPUT TRIM settings on tonex Global settings. This param changed radically with firmware update so your old settings might not work now. And I could help you a bit further with this : 1) Use only professional captures from tone partners. Amalgam Audio, Studio Rats, Sadites, Tone Junkies etc. They all set their gain correctly and presets would work as expected. 2) GAIN in your tonex/pedal is NOT the gain of the amp. It's not a model, it's capture. Your gain works _exactly_ as volume knob on guitar while your amp untouched. That's why they give you captures of the same amp on different gain levels like clean/crunch/edge/drive... THIS gain is where you compensate "weak" capture to be in line with stock/professional captures. Gain in your preset is the same as trim-input in your pedal settings (and input in tonex software). This is level of signal hitting the front of the amp model. NOT the gain level of the model. This is captured profile with all knobs of the amp fixed. It has no idea how amp behaves on different settings just because it contains no information except this particular settings on shot. /// Information in this video is NOT about sound from amp plugin. This is about matching hardware range of YOUR interface and THEIR (plugin creators) interface to play on the same playground so to speak. If you play very high gain with a lot of dynamics and compression it _might_ help to fix your sound with this tips from Ed. But KZfaqs (not Ed) just forgot to tell you that when you set your input gain to zero on audio interface, you STILL have to gain-up your input signal INSIDE your DAW up to standard -12.2..12.5dB true peak. Just like you did with your audio interface gain but VIRTUALLY. There's "infinite" headroom and your plugin will match range of your interface optimally so you will never hit plugin's headroom just because your interface have another _ground level_ factory specs. This tip on Ed's video is about matching MAX RANGE of YOUR interface and THIER interface. Not about amps or guitars. Amps/guitars works as usual, just inside digital domain. And you still have to deal with your input level and your gain on the amp (modeller, not captured profiles :)) And in tonex all settings (except gain) are PRE or POST your "amp+cab". It does nothing with captured tone model. It just slightly adjusts input or output eq/comp/rev. That's why there is only one single button "Pre/Post" in advanced settings. And gain on your tonex interface, input slider in software and gain knob on pedal (and trim-in setting in your pedal) do EXACTLY the same. Adjust input level of signal hitting the front of the software/pedal. They give you different places just to allow you control different captures independently AND with midi/volume pedal. Because nor GLOBAL trim-in neither KNOB gain isn't available for midi. Only gain in _prifile_. You use your trim-in to fit your _guitar_ to pedal (for software sounding the same as pedal), your gain in preset to match all others presets (and control it with midi/expression pedal) and your gain knob to slightly boost/desaturate your tone (like volume on guitar itself). Sorry for long test. I hope this will help and clarify things. Jason Sadites has few very helpful videos with gain in tonex.

Well i hated plugins ten years ago but today it has the best quality you can expect from a music product: they're fun and make you want to play.

The same problem here and this is true for "common practice" not related to this video. How we suppose to know what is "right" if we're trying the amp we've never heard before and have no idea how it SHOULD behave ? For me the best reference point is your input gain. Broadcast standard is -9..12dB (true peak). Gain up your input signal (in DAW) up to this level before amp plugin and you'll be there. Real amps built to expect particular range of level from guitars and pre-amp pre-amplifies this incoming low gain signal up to standard. But in DAW/computer there's no such things and guitar plugin _expects_ standard input level. So you have to adjust it by yourself. You may check this by testing the same amp on low-mid gains when there are presets for it. if it does clean on clean and crunch on crunch preset you're approximately there. And you definitely have to listen to original videos with reviews, so you know what to expect and what is so special about this particular amp. :) In digital domain this is not that easy as plugging your guitar in different amps IRL :)

I'm the same. I always set the input gain completely down on my RME when using plugins. I learned that trick many, many years ago. I've been using amp plugins since the first generation, along with a Line 6 POD. It was the same situation with that device as well. There was no point in setting the input high with the POD because the entire tone and sound was essentially a self-contained digital representation/sound. It made no sense for me to crank the input in an effort to "help it along".

You mess with your amp settings after you get them set where you like???

Foh really loves less amps Loud really kills the horns on stage

@@kodykindhart5644 every room is different. I set at soundcheck, if we get one, then forget.

@@kodykindhart5644 We have our own sound crew and don't play big enough rooms for the "luxury" of a Venue's FoH. We mostly play wineries. I currently use a Milkman 50w head with emulated DI out & Speaker out.

it’s not really about pickups being different levels, and more about interfaces all using their own definition of what voltage is represented as as a digital value. It’s about removing the variable of the interface headroom, rather than the variable of the guitar/pickup (which you’d want to preserve)

Good onya Digga

this would normalise all guitars to the same volume no matter if they are quiet or loud pickups and would not yield accurate results. Also, different plugin manufacturers design their plugins for different input levels. So unfortunately, this method would not be good for getting an accurate gain response from an amp plugin.

This video initially is NOT about guitar input or amp sound. It's about optimal mapping your audio interface MAX VOLUME LEVEL (dBu) to THEIR (plugin creators) audio interface max. vol. level (dBu). To match hardware _ranges_ optimally to make amp plugin feel itself at home. You STILL have to level-up our signal up to -12db. Ed just recommends to do this in DAW instead of narrowing your interface range from the bottom by cranking up input gain.

I'm pretty sure he has the OX, he may have gone into depth about it, not sure

You got it, only that your ideal approach is also what the video shows. The point is to always leave the interface input gain at minimum or at least very low (since on most modern high impedance inputs, it already gives a signal strong enough for recording purposes), and then use the input gain stage on your plugins to adjust the amp sim response as needed (especially for cases like Rhett's where you also own the real amp).

That's what I thought as well. You should give as much signal (without clipping obviously) into to AD converters. As soon as you are within the digital world, all DAWs and PlugIns process in 32bit floating point, so there you can reduce the input gain for the PlugIn if necessary.

Plus: shouldn't the clean recorded signal be completely independent from what plugin you throw at later on? If (for whatever reason) you change the PlugIn after recording this should work with any properly recorded signal if you set the input gain of the PlugIn accordingly.

yes exactly, never know that was an issue for people until today and seeing a bunch of video about it. It make senses because if they are just guitarists, they know nothing about mixing and sound engineering, they dont know how to properly gain stage their signals and thinks they need to add a signal way to high, just before clipping into the amp. In real life the D.I guitar signal isn't a super hot one a -6dBfs who run into the preamp/amp

The Pro MPA II runs the tubes at 150V on the "high plate" setting. 250V is the standard. There's a slight dynamic compromise, but it's probably not significant as long as you don't overdrive the tube. There's no need to record the amp sim sound to a track. You can place the amp sim as a post effect on any DI track in Reaper and the DI sound will not be heard as long as the plugin pin connector settings are right. You can render the track later with all post effects if you run out of CPU power.

I really like the fuchs I run it the same way except instead of the comp I use a 1081 eq plugin to add color