Was waiting for this when this came up possible drying out I'm like yea he foingyto cut it.

Twas never a matter of if, only when.

was soll da schon so geheimnisvolles dran sein ? zwei scheiben toast und bisschen ministeck oder glaubst ernsthaft, bei den formkosten, daß die sich da groß mühe geben ? muß nur schön ausschauen halt

EVERYONE could see this video coming. If you think otherwise, you're delusional.

"Didn't have time to do it yet" its not about resisting just time

This is next level KZfaq material. Like in the old days!!! Love it. Thank you for educational video.

in this case he did what in particular? and wash your brown-nose

@@phillipocanya6775 Calm down, buddy.

Thanks a lot :)

@@phillipocanya6775 dude wanted to say something nice and you automatically feel the need to be a d*ck? yikes man.

Or maybe there is no heating issue, but rather a sensor issue that reads the temps incorrectly. I mean come on, what is more likely? Thousands of vapor chambers being designed faulty and no testing catching it, or single sensors being faulty and reading higher temps.

@@SlickR12345 If the temp reading was false then why does the card downclock? Anything is possible but I'm leaning towards a fluid dynamic failure due to the odd behavior when tilted and running then tilted back.

There could still be a problem with the porosity of the material that needs more microscopic views and testing.

One clarification, I think you meant vacuum not pressurized. The lower pressure allows the fluid to turn to vapor at lower temperature.

My thoughts as well. We all assume gfx cards and their coolers are not dependant on the coolers orientation. Now seeing inside a vapour chamber it seems gravity could have a big part to play especially in the areas without any material offering capillary action. Surely gpu manufacturers have looked at this in the past and decided the best place to mount the coolers on cards. However, having seen their recent disasters I'm not convinced.

@@stevecade857 Exactly. Btw, this is the same for CPU coolers, too. You don't want the cpu to face up if the cooler relies on heat pipes. Capillary action may only "push" a limited amount of liquid per second against gravity, and it is also limited by distance. Kind of how the flame of a candle is of relatively constant size whether the weather is colder or hotter.

@@stevecade857 Regular heatpipes are definitely affected by gravity; for example PC chassis which have the card slots oriented vertically with the card slot brackets and video connectors turned upwards leave a GPU hanging vertically, kind of like a resting bat. This will cause heatpipe working fluid to amass in the lower end of the cooler, away from the GPU coldplate area where you want the fluid to be, thus increasing the risk of a heatpipe stall (IE, where the heatpipe runs dry in the hot end and basically stops transferring heat.)

AMD failed on testing because the benchtable is horizontal monted and computer cases is vertical mounted... maybe?

@@MsTatakai was just thinking about that too

thanks :) not much expertise for this specific topic but could be one more piece missing in the puzzle :D

@@der8auer-en I'm pretty sure the amount of water inside the vapor chamber the volume is too high. The reason for this is when you open milled into the vapor chamber the air pressure should have cause a lot of it to escape instantly. This is from the change in pressure as it's under less presure than normal atmosphere. The fact you were able to blow some of it off is proof. The water is pooling in cooler spots because the volume of water is too high, it then is away from the heat load as it condense elsewhere. You can see this when you blow off the water at the edges of the heat sink & just about 0 is near the gpu hot spot. When oriented side ways all the water drops to one side when it should always be in gas form, form the lower pressure inside causing it to boil at lower temperatures. The additonal amout of water coul be changing the negative pressure to being more positive then it should be. Edit: There are also so vapor chambers with tall heat pipes coming out of the top them, to help at hotter areas to get the heat in the fins quicker causing the condesing wuicker too. Also the sindering material should be arcross all of the vapor chamber, not just the hot spot of the GPU die. I would shake one those cards up after it was warmed up a little & see if changes anything.

Same here 😂 he was not happy when I pulled apart the VCR

@@Leisur1st i regrettably was the same with insects as we did not have computers or VCR's.

I did it to my friends' toys, much to their dismay!

Prolly cause he was the one paying for the electronics you were twacking apart

I took everything apart too but always put them back together.

At least one useful comment around here.

lol whats a fin stack? sorry idk much about vapour chambers

And it's not like their competitors haven't already done these teardowns a hundred times at launch anyways ^^

You know whats funny? You can look up how Porsche, Ferrari, Lambo to Royal Royce, etc is made, pretty much from scratch. And these are 100k to 3million+ dollars cars easily. BUT, AMD, or Nvidia can't show the process of how their cards are made? 🤦‍♂

If you invested million to billions to get to this point in technology I doubt you would want your roadwork to these innovations revealed for all to see either. This is called intellectual property and by the basic function of capitalism is the core fundamental workings of it.

@@PLr1c3r I am not saying show the "blue prints" to how the GPU is being made. Heck, all the car Manufacture DOCUs i mention don't even do that. I just want to see the process of how for example the heat chamber are made and installed or just the overall process of the GPU being assembled. At the end of the day, any one can disassemble these cards, as shown here. SO, might as well show how these cards are put together? Again, the same thing they do for these car manufacturers DOCUs. Heck, even Sony DEV teams showed how the PS5 was assembled and dissembled.

@@PLr1c3r While i'm sure some secrets are kept, cooperate espionage practically ensures there are no secrets for long. Nvidia and AMD may be able to keep wraps on their product while in the design phase, which is critical to maintaining market dominance, but once it hits production there will be a constant flow of leaks from there. The factories have specific arrangements with their respective brand, but that doesn't stop employees or even the company themselves from violating that trust. It would be nice to think that doesn't happen, but it has and will continue. The best example is an event dubbed "The big hack" or the "supermicro motherboard hack". Years back there was a small group of trusted factories making motherboards, these factories had been vetted as trusted suppliers. For one reason or another these trusted factories couldn't meet demand, so they outsourced production without approval to other firms in China. Those firms were not trusted, nor should they have been, as they implanted monitoring chips into electronic devices bound for all levels of the US IT infrastructure. We are talking about spying on the US government without anyone noticing until a few sysAdmins and a few NG firewalls picked up the traffic initially. You can bet secrets are being sold between AMD and Nvidia. The only real limitation is the patents on the design that limits how quickly a competitor can devise the reasoning for a particular design, then modify it such that it falls outside the current patent. At best this buys a manufacturer half a decade, at worst it buys them just long enough for the competitor to retool. Look at the first use of heatpipes in GPUs back in the early 2000s. Nvidia AFAIK pioneered it, AMD came out with their own heat pipe solution for the next model year.

It does, the mind boggles!

so that's where that $1000 price comes from, shame it doesn't work XD

Well, the comparison here isn't with one heatpipe, if they'd gone that route they'd probably used a whole bunch (8-10?) heatpipes. But yes, even compared to that a big vapor chamber is EXPENSIVE. Which is why smaller vapor chamber which then couples to regular heatpipes are probably more common than this behemoth - and even these smaller rectangular vapor chamber probably costs as much as the heatpipes connected to it. They're also much simpler to design and model than a behemoth like this (and heatpipes are "off the shelf") which further adds to the cost of this one - have to recover the design cost over the manufacturing run.

Yes of course

AMD did not cheap out on the cooler to keep the card small and then it doens't work properly ... sucks

You don't need everyone doing the same thing. It takes a lot of time and money to research and diagnosis what he's done. This isn't simple research journalism. Props to him for his knowledge and dedication, but if you need fabrication equipment, it's a specialized situation that you don't casually wander into.

When they quote him, I immediately stop their show and come watch his fully. I feel this is proper considering the effort he puts into his work.

@@txmits507 Not everything requires equipment though. He's creating content is what i mean. VS reporting news...

​@@VoodooZ Not to sound overly mean but I hope most KZfaqrs stay in their lane on these matters. It takes a good deal of expertise to properly diagnose issues like this and if they all suddenly decided to "actually do tech journalism" the way we're seeing here, we'll be seeing a huge influx of new misinformation getting around as everyone comes to faulty conclusions. I'm happy to have most of them rounding up relevant tech news and putting it together in digestible and timely formats, and doing consumer-facing reviews on how products are performing across a battery of tests. That is not an insignificant or worthless task in itself.

@@MaskedMammal those KZfaqrs already mislead everyone to think 12900k runs at 280w when 5950x runs at 140w. What can I say? Amd is just better at media control. When intel is the more honest guy and got punished for being honest 😅

LOL ! You are even more retarded than Roman !

That "fluid" waporize immediately at 20 Celsius and atmosphere pressure. Fluid is not even water, it's some cfc usually. Even mixing many known like30% R134A and 70% R410.

Thats what im thinking too

Also, the material on the GPU pillars doesn't look to have bonded to them which will reduce how much heat they can reject. I think the vapour chamber is too clever for its own good. I bet it works great on paper but it looks difficult to make it well enough to get the performance that it's designed to provide with bonus points for it being sensitive to its orientation.

@@tessierrr lol sure

I'd think the surface tension of the water as condensate would be more than enough to pull it to bridge with that height between surfaces, which would allow for position-independent condensate return.

@@davidjones6661 The sintered material does double-duty as both a wick to move fluid along and as extra surface area for vapor to condense on. If the sintered material is so over-saturated that liquid can pool up on top and bridge the gap between cold and hot side, you likely lose heat throughput from the sintering not contributing to condensing surface area anymore since it is flooded.

Not sure about vapor chambers but iirc Gamer's Nexus went to a big heat pipe manufacturer in China in one of their episodes.

attach mesh to the top side, put the supporting pillars, press in the bottom side, weld, from a hole in the side put in a bit of fluid and suck out the air with vacuum, then weld the hole. it is actually much less complicated than it seems. you need to have the tooling though.

"cool" I see what you did there 😎

Yet traditional heatpipe designs are proving to work better.

@@CallmeRoth Isn't that just companies keeping the cheaper option?

Something tells me EK is already sending a waterblock. Must be a huge marketing potential for them to sell to those who don't want to RMA just for the cooler.

@@haakoflo Not everyone can be helped with that. A custom loop is expensive and you need the case and maintenance knowhow for it.

@@thedeegee1601 If you can build a pc you can do water cooling its honestly simpler than building a computer

@@thedeegee1601 I think people paying for an xtx are the easiest audience to upsell a better cooler to, it's not like they are buying the economic option anyway. ... Thinking about it, you're actually right if money wasn't an issue they could have bought Nvidia.

@@haakoflo They are something like 250Euros on pre-order

micro not macro ;-)

@@lucidnonsense942 He was talking about the mass production aspect of it, so macro would be correct.

He did that in the previous video.

@@Quettesh Are you sure? I scanned through that one again, and didn't find him testing with the fans up, only with the fans down. If he did, maybe you can provide the time spot in that video where he did that test?

@@Quettesh No he didn't. He only tested horizontal with fans facing down. (the normal mounting)

@@staples4335 Confirming, he only did standard horizontal orientation.

the upside down orientation you are asking for is inefficient in ALL vapour chambers. You would not be able to say if it's a fault or just the expected inefficiency.

schadenfreude

@@yakacm lol

Näin käy, kun ei asenna suomalaista saunaa! * *) This is what happens when you don't install a Finnish sauna!

So, did he have the problem, or was it OK? I'm thinking that they have, or at least should have, stopped shipping of the suspected, affected GPU's.

@@randomguy- retailers buy cards in bulk and then sell it to customers. It takes hell to revoke a product quickly. And AMD might be just started tilting its gears toward the problem yet to do anything about it.

yeah cuz we buy a GPU for the engineering, 110 degrees is fine right? XD

@@zwenkwiel816 i am a forever nvidia user, but it is fascinating to see new products from different companies and cooling solutions. Still, a 100x times better than gigabyte, never ever buy anything from this vendor.

this sounds smart but I don't understand it

@@nightshademilkshake1 Open GPU, weigh it, boil GPU, weigh it. First weight - second weight = amount of water in vapor chamber (fixed a typo)

@@BlackPariah13 *Remove heat sink, weigh it cold, heat it up, weigh it hot.

@@avetruetocaesar3463 👍

The problem would be in precision. Cut the nipple open, boil the chamber in a heat oven, measure after 2-3 hours. The problem is it could be chamber pressure fault, where the liquid does not change its states properly on delta although the amount of liquid is correct in ratio to chamber volume.

Unparalleled? If you mean subpar, overpriced and defective then I agree.

Yeah it's a complete flop from amd

@@rooster1012 LIke melted cables in 4090 ?

@@zeus1117 lol they're better than a 4080

@@rooster1012 I'm pretty sure b888 is referring to the series of videos regarding the XTX...

That mesh helps copper parts to weld together when whole pancake is ultrasound welded. There is few parts that they weld with just hear, like capillar connector to put R134A in it.

AMD has already acknowledged it, you’re not well informed. They will of course answer later after they are done with their analysis, same as Nvidia with the strange cable.

@@eazen F Off with your condescending BS. I am well informed about AMDs limited statement a few days ago and an upcoming one (rumoured). I have been following all their statements and news and rumours on every site. I have been running the reddit PSA tech support threads on this 110C issue, and following every piece of news.

@@L0rd_0f_War the only one arrogant and condescending is you. I corrected you because you’re trying to paint AMD in some negative color, which I rejected. “Force AMDs Hand” as if it ever needed forcing. Guy thinks AMD is Nvidia. Nvidia tried to sell us 4070 for 1000$ dollar as a 4080 branded, they were properly forced to undo that huge mistake. Guy thinks everyone is as shifty as Nvidia.

@@eazen yea amd is no different than nvidia. amd always can get away from these things because the fanboys are the loudest and toxic.

@@gamehavana120 yea sure bud. Keep dreaming that up The most toxic fanboys will always be Nvidias and it’s never a contest, if you think otherwise you’ve never been around tech forums

"Dell" LMFAO !

@@gertjanvandermeij4265chill out

Heatpipes mostly have less errors due to its mass producing. Unless it’s bent or pressed flat to fit in laptops. Heatpipes on gpu is actually better option on cost wise and error wise. Amd vapor chamber is more like an expensive unnecessary advertisement 😅 those amd incompetences are the reason amd may never be in leading position 😅

over 25% have this problem? woah.

@@Born_Stellar yeah it's really bad. Like Roman said, the number is probably inflated but even if it's 10% that's still really really bad for AMD.

Most likely not in this case as far too much distortion in the removal process although no knowing the internal structure I am sure one could be opened in such a way as to minimise this damage and achieve a meaningful result.

Vapor*. No U.

@@Digikidthevoiceofreason only the US drops the U from words. Canada, UK, Aus, NZ, etc. keep it. Vapour, colour, honour...

The rings can be lose as long as they touch the nets on both sides they're fine. They just look a bit smashed up from opening, this stuff is super crumbly and brittle because of the extreme porosity it needs for efficient wicking of coolant.

I agree! Although I feel that while J2C is a good channel, Jay just does too much low effort, talking head stuff. Linus tech tips however is probably my favourite channel over all! And Gamers Nexus are brilliant and among the absolute best! I only discovered Roman a couple of days ago, and I feel the tests and experiments he is conducting, put him more on par with GN then just about anyone

@@GregoryShtevensh J2C was actually recommended to me by grandad on how to sort bent pins on my CPU with the trusty Stanley blade trick, he was the 1st I started watching I do like him as its a bit more chill out and I do value his opinion, Linus is great always full of energy and was my 2nd following I started watching GN for more in depth stuff for the thermals and case stuff and obviously Roman soon followed, I watch kit Guru and RandomGamingHD (more of a random old gen stuff and new stuff benchmark) for a more of a UK perspective and value all of their opinions before buying new tech or builds

@@ys053rious6 dude I love RandomGaming! Dawid is also awesome! Dawid is funny as. Timmy Joe used to be one of my favs too but unfortunately he ran into some personal issues and stopped

@@GregoryShtevensh yeah dawid is great with his experiments that he does you never know what he is going to do next all you can pretty much guarantee is that it's going to include vilvida rubber gloves lol

@@GregoryShtevensh Dawid is pretty fucking obnoxious with his stale innuendoes. And LTT don't know how to do reviews.

Good idea, but very difficult to execute, as the router milling will remove material that then needs to be collected and weighed. Remember we are talking about milliliters (grams) of fluid here. Well, off course you could just pinch a hole, bake it in an oven for a while. That would work actually, if Der Bauer feels like destroying another vapor chamber, that is? Andy;P

Freeze it with the moisure inside, then work out with a standard equation the difference between ice and water (in weight). Using that work out the weight of the water when frozen and also liquid... Then you can subtract the water weight accurately. Water when frozen is roughly 1.13 times the weight. So do [weight increase when frozen / 1.13] - [regular weight] = water weight (then to correct it for frozen temp you just divide by 1.13). Something like that.

LMAO !

@@DailyCorvid But, steel is heavier than feathers

@@DailyCorvid please tell me you are kidding lol

LOL ! WHERE is that "great stuff" you're talking about ? He clearly knows SH*T about Vapor Chambers ! This is an horrible upload !

@@gertjanvandermeij42651. The timing and speed of the video for what he has to use. 2. For bringing this all to knowledge the best he can. 3. The fact he does it in multiple languages... makes it great stuff.... What have you done? why dont you make a video and talk about it?

Yup. I think the engineers fucked up with that design and thats it.

@@timothyandrewnielsen Some combination of the design is too close to the edge of not working combined with manufacturing precision not high enough. Vapor chamber is too big and wide so not enough direct ways for the condensed cooled liquid to wick itself back to the hot side.

I'm reading almost all comments on my videos because I appreciate your input and also take it seriously. So if I make a mistake it's just important to know about it :)

No, what you see in the video is just damage from being scraped with a chisel. Normally the sintered copper would form a solid structure inside the vapour chamber.

LMAO ! If you know shit, than don't try !

@@gertjanvandermeij4265 Assholes are not preventing me from trying....

you wont see the movment of vapor and liquid on x.ray

I too would love to see that! However given there's barely any water in them, would an x-ray see anything?

@@Incommensurabilities In theory, you could drill a hole and add x-ray contrast substance to liquid inside. Thats how the do x-ray of intestine

The question here is not boost but stability.

Sabotage or someone sent the chamber supplyer the wrong drawings?

Gamers Nexus already cut open the 40 series vapor chamber.

What they should've done at the start: Recall all defective cards. Nvidia is a lot of bad things, but inattentive to their reputation isn't one of them. Trust is earned for decades but dies in mere seconds. Their short-term greed hurts a lot, coming from a closet fanboy. Needless to say, my next GPU is coming from Intel.

Its not a mistake, its basically impossible that this wasnt caught due to how widespread the issue is. They just had to choose between typical amd paper launch or low quality launch.

…and lots of goodwill out the window. They are back to their bench, steps behind Nvidia.

nvidia faces the same problems...all rtx cards had hardware problems at launch 2080ti/3090/4090...and remember, in nvidias case, even if a AIB card does have problems, it is still a problem of nvidias QC since they test every single AIB board and cooler design before they go into mass production. there is not a single AIB card from nvidia wich didnt get tested by nvidia them self and still the QC manage to bring out faulty gpu designes and nvidia also downplayed many of there problems until the public pressure was high enough

My uneducated wild guess would be that AMD is currently trying to collect serial numbers from people contacting support and crossing their fingers that they can nail it down to one or more bad batches, or vapor chambers from one supplier or something else that allows them to do a limited recall of specific cards, once they are sure they know how to determine which ones are affected.

Yes! Just cut the tube of the vapor chamber, solder a longer one with valve, then add some water. Then take compressor (from the fridge for example) and suck out some air from vapor chamber. Then close the valve.

The low boiling point fluid used is water. Heatpipes and vapor chambers operate at reduced pressure so boiling starts at a low temperature and as the heat rises the pressure rises bringing the boiling point up so they remain effective in a wider temperature range.

If it's condensed water, it wouldn't work. If it's water, it needs to be very low pressure, or it will not form steam until the GPU temp > 100 degrees C. More likely it's some other liquid with a boiling point higher than room temperature (even in a tropical climate with no AC) but lower than acceptable GPU temps. Somewhere around 50-60C. Edit: As for Wang's comment, I misinterpreted in my response, I think. I first thought that he meant that the "condensed water" was the vapor chamber fluid, and that it was at high pressure (condensed) inside the chamber. I suppose it _could_ be that a very low pressure gas/liquid existed inside the chamber when it was opened, and that it reduced the temperature of the chamber enough to cause condensation when it evaporated. Given the humidity in Germany indoors this time of year, I doubt that, though.

@@haakoflo It's water at low pressure. As the temperature rises and it boils the pressure increases raising the boiling temperature. This only works because there are condensers dumping the heat keeping it in boiling range. That's also why it's possible to overpower a heatpipe and it will stop working leading to runaway. This isn't a runaway scenario, seems a lot more like the mesh is decoupled on some of these vapor chambers, which would be why it works correctly mounted vertically.

@@PineyJustice A vapor chamber is basically a larger heat pipe, and it can be overloaded in a similar manner. The vapor part is not the bottleneck, though, but the wick part very well may be. The wick creates very significant resistance against the liquid flow, essentially setting a cap on how fast the fluid can flow through. Just as the wick part of a heat pipe. If you have a vapor chamber with the hot part down, you can in principle make it work without a wick, simply by allowing condensed liquid to "rain" back inside the tank. That requires the chamber to be aligned in the opposite direction, though. But even then, you want a wick, since it makes the flow more efficient.

@@haakoflo Yeah, sorta, the wick doesn't create the resistance you think it does though and we know that these are working in an orientation that isn't raining back down. Fluid wicks up to the hot surface without issue, just it's not wicking from the opposite plate/wick surface. That's why it's working vertically but having issues horizontal, meaning that the wicking posts have possibly de-bonded from the wick of the hot plate.